B (2:35)

Thank you.

A (2:35)

Especially for your first. For your first launch. I mean, it is. Yeah. Wow.

B (2:40)

Thank you so much.

A (2:40)

I'm so impressed. You are so welcome. Okay, so tell me a little bit more about being in reality tv. What drew you to it other than just the side that you mentioned about it? Proportion, scale, lighting? What else drew you to it and what made you get out?

B (2:57)

So I was young when I started. I was like 22 when I did my first show. And when I was young, that lifestyle worked for me. You're traveling all the time. You know, we're traveling across the country, living in hotels, living out of a suitcase, working 18 to 20 hour days for like three months at a time, and then having two months off where you can go spend that money you just made and travel with your friends.

A (3:19)

And then that is perfect for young twenties. That's the ideal lifestyle.

B (3:23)

Yes. It was like, you work so hard, you don't sleep, and then you get to chill for two months, and then you're, like, nervous, like, am I dead in this town? Am I gonna get another call? And then you get a call and then you do it all over again. So I loved that, and I loved that for a long time. And I worked my way up to the highest level in that field that.

A (3:41)

I could get to, which is such a feat.

B (3:43)

Thank you so much. Which is production designer. But it can be like a thankless job. And you get to a point where you're like, how am I still putting my body through this? How am I still sort of giving this show, like, all my sauce, like, all my creative ideas, and I'm not really benefiting from it other than the paycheck, which is not always, you know, it definitely. The work input does not. The finances don't always make sense. So I just. I knew I wanted a way out because I can't do that type of work till I'm 50 years old. And. Yeah. And I also, I felt like there was a huge hole in the market in terms of furniture, and I saw, like, a real place where I could make a difference. So that's why I finally made the choice to get out. But I've been wanting to get out of TV for years and finally did it.

A (4:33)

Interesting, interesting. One more question for you about tv. It's so interesting to me because there's, like, two schools of thought with interior designers that either HGTV has ruined interior design and we're never gonna be able to work and it's a whole thing, or that it's, like, really been able to make the world a more beautiful place. And that sounds very like Pollyanna. But what I mean by that is it became more accessible so your average person could Beautify their home in a way that they previously wouldn't have been able to. But it's interesting to me because as a designer, it just looks like you're doing all this work, but to the viewer, it just magically happened in 48 hours and it's all perfect and nothing went wrong. How was that sort of cognitive dissonance for you? And did it bother you or did it sort of. Was it just sort of name of the game?

B (5:21)

It's definitely the name of the game. Like, you'd know what your job is. Your job is to make sure the on camera designer look great and so they can show up on camera, which is, you know, its own job, own thing.

A (5:31)

Yep, absolutely.

B (5:33)

And so, like, I didn't have an ego about it at all because that's the job. But after a while, it did start to be like, okay, what are we doing here with our life? Like, let's, you know, let's get credit for some of our work. So that was definitely kind of the driving force. But when I was in it, I didn't mind at all.

A (5:49)

And you love it.

B (5:50)

And you get to feel the recognition when you're watching, like, the family react. And it's just so, like, it's so joyful. Especially shows where the family isn't paying for the renovation, where it's all a gift. Because there are a lot of HGTV shows where the homeowner pays, and those aren't as fun.

A (6:07)

I don't think a lot of people know that. I don't think a lot of people know that. A lot of HGTV shows, they at least have to put in some funding. The owners do.

B (6:16)

Yeah, some of them. They have to have a certain budget to get on the show. Like some shows you have to have like $200,000 of your own money that you're willing to renovate your home with. And then they have to just give up complete control to the show. Yeah. And then some. It's like Queer Eye and Extreme Makeover. It's a complete gift. So there's all different types and the ones that are a gift, way more fun.

A (6:39)

I mean, that has gotta be so rewarding.

B (6:41)

Oh, so rewarding. It's the best. It's so addictive, too.

A (6:44)

That's what I was just about to say. The reveals are my favorite part of this job. And we rarely get them in my. And you're a designer too, so in our work, where you're working with. And there's like, things happening in phases sometimes, and there's sometimes the clients in and out all the time. You don't get a true reveal, but when you do that is like a natural high like no other. So I can only imagine. Cause it's so condensed, you're getting lots of that sort of dopamine hit of reveal. What happens when you get out and now you're a designer and you're like, oh, it's going to take two years for that dopamine head. Like, does that. Do you like that now or is it. Tell me how that's affected you.

B (7:22)

Yeah, that has been a challenge. And I. I've tried to only work with clients that kind of want that vibe in.

A (7:31)

Oh, incredible.

B (7:32)

In a home. So, like my first client that I got from TikTok, for example, there's this amazing guy who had a huge 6,000 square foot loft in fabulous in downtown LA and he knew that I worked on Queer Eye and he wanted that experience. He was like, I'm gonna leave town, I'm gonna go on vacation and like, me and my partner are gonna come back and we want you to be there and like did the whole thing. He cried when he walked in. It was like a TV show.

A (7:57)

That's magical.

B (7:58)

It was magical. It was incredible.

A (8:00)

Wow.

B (8:00)

And I have been lucky enough to keep finding clients that are like, I trust you and kind of like want to be surprised. So that really nice. But oh my God, I know, it's a dream.

A (8:11)

You managed this perfectly, by the way. Like, you got everything that was great about your previous experience and have brought it. I mean, that's what we want when we start our own businesses. That's the whole point. Right. But you've really. Wow, that's incredible.

B (8:24)

Yeah, it's been really great. And I mean, I've had nightmare clients, don't get me wrong. But I. Well, we can get into that later. Actually, I have some.

A (8:32)

We all have.

B (8:33)

Yeah.

A (8:33)

Oh, I. And I want to hear it. And I definitely want to hear it. Want to hear it. Here's a confession I know a lot of you can relate to. For years, I told myself I had my project management under control. Sure, I had 30 different tabs, docs and emails open at once. And yes, I'd occasionally panic search for a specification at midnight. But I was still managing. Right? Then I tried Programa and I realized I wasn't managing, I was just surviving. And barely. When I demoed the platform, I was most impressed by their incredible AI web clipper that pulls every single spec from a supplier's webpage straight into your product schedule. We're talking product details, dimensions, pricing, finishes, everything captured in seconds instead of the hours we used to spend copying and pasting into spreadsheets. It saves me so much time, and most importantly, it's given me back the headspace to actually focus on design instead of drowning in admin. So here's my advice. If you're serious about streamlining your design business and actually reclaiming some time in your day, head to Programa Dot Design and use code Confessions25 to get 25% off your annual subscription. Trust me, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it. Before we get into the confessions, do you have a vice?

B (9:52)

I have lots of vices.

A (9:55)

You and me both.

B (9:56)

The biggest one that I'm trying to overcome is. Is I am, like, such a workaholic while I work, like, three months straight and not sleep, not eat, not know what's going on, and then completely crash and have a mental breakdown, and then I'm, like, useless for two months and then I do it again. So I'm trying to have a more balanced approach to work instead of being a crazy person.

A (10:17)

Well, by the way, that's. I mean, it's not your fault. That's what you just said you were sort of trained into. So it's natural that you're falling back into that pattern, because to your point, when you were saying I, you know, our clients leave on vacation and then they get a surprise that is like, breakneck speed. My goodness, the amount of, like, focus you need to. So are you just doing one project at a time until completion, or do you have multiple balls in the air? How does that work?

B (10:46)

I try not to do, like, more than 10 projects at once, but I. I just make sure that the client gives me control.

A (10:54)

So I'm not like, okay, okay, so you're not. There's not as much client communication and things like that.

B (10:59)

Right. It's like, this is the budget, this is the vibe. I present them with the mood board, and then I get to go and my team installs really quickly. And I have great teams all over the country from, you know, working in tv, so we're all able to work super quick.

A (11:13)

Wow. Well, honestly, I sometimes wish I did have your. I mean, I'm a workaholic in my own way, but I do sometimes wish I could just bear down. Not eat, not Sometimes I'm. Do I have to sleep? Do I have to, like. Cause it does feel like when you're in, especially in that creative mindset, like, it's easier to just keep creating and to keep. I Mean, an object in motion stays in motion. It's the same thing as. I feel like when I'm busiest. I read the most books.

B (11:40)

Totally, totally.

A (11:41)

So think about your brain continuing that momentum. So, I mean, in some ways it makes sense to me. I think it's just the crash, that if that can be avoided, that would be ideal.

B (11:51)

And the crash is bad and dark and ugly. So it's something I'm working on.

A (11:56)

Well, and when you're doing such beautiful work and it shouldn't need to sort of crack apart for you to have to put it back together, but it's hard to sort of create that routine, especially when you're a creative. I think it's uniquely hard also because you're the most creative of the creative. Like, you've siphoned it to where you're really getting to do a lot of the fun stuff, which is.

B (12:18)

Yes, I am. I'm like, hell on earth for me. Me as like a three to four year project. Like, I don't. I'm not interested right now in that at all.

A (12:27)

I understand that. I mean. Cause to your point, the fun part, I mean, I just did a commercial project where they're incredibly busy. And so they were like, yeah, we've approved the renderings. You have carte blanche to sort of shop antiques and do things. It was the most fun I've had in years.

B (12:42)

Right.

A (12:42)

Because I just got to buy without approval. And what's the. And like, it was so fun. So I can. I can imagine. That's how it is. That's incredible. Do you work all over the country or just la?

B (12:54)

I used to work all over the country. This past year, it's just been la. I'm trying to stay just in la. I do have like one client in Arizona that's working on a huge vacation home. So I'll fly in to complete staging, but mostly LA right now.

A (13:09)

Awesome. Well, I keep being like, we're gonna get to this, we're gonna get into it right now. Confessions can wait a second. Because, I mean, with this furniture line, you've had to put, I would assume, a lot of your time and energy and creativity into this.

B (13:21)

Yes.

A (13:21)

Can you tell me, how did you get started with this? Was this the original goal? I'm not gonna ask 500 questions, but I do have them. So let's start there and then we'll get to more.

B (13:32)

Yeah. So furniture I've always been obsessed with. Like, I have a finsta that's all about where I post chairs. And so, like, I've Always been obsessed with chairs. Really. It started with chairs and I started designing and sketching for maybe four or five years, but never really realizing, like, how can you bring something to life? And then how can you do that at scale? And then I started getting clients where I'd, like, let's make something custom. Started finding really amazing furniture makers, and then I just got addicted to the custom thing. And then everything online started looking like trash to me. So I.

A (14:09)

Cheap and bad and.

B (14:10)

Yes. And just like reductive and not new or cool. And so I found a way to make it happen. Found a factory that can produce at scale. Got all the back end stuff together. And yeah, it took a long time, A lot of sleepless nights, years in the making. But yeah, it was, in a sense, always the goal to be able to create something original.

A (14:34)

And when you were doing this, was TikTok one of the things that made you feel like, people will buy this, I can do this.

B (14:40)

Yeah. TikTok changed my life and me as a person in so many ways. Like, I wasn't able to even, like, speak like this on camera ever before. Really bad at public speaking. Just like, really shy and like, you.

A (14:53)

Would never know that.

B (14:54)

Thank you. Well, it's really opened me up as a person and given me all this confidence and just the positive feedback and the community and so, yes, experiencing the love that I've got on TikTok made me be like, oh, my God, like, life is so much bigger than what I thought it could be.

A (15:10)

Yeah, well. And I know I'm jumping all over the place, but something that really inspires me about your furniture line is as a designer, we see lots of. Lots of lines come out and with much bigger brands, with bigger funding and more people. And your pieces are more original and more unique than anything I've seen in years.

B (15:30)

Thank you.

A (15:30)

Is that just because you're so good at your job or what? Where did you get your inspiration from? How did you create these? What I think are timeless, but also really unique pieces.

B (15:42)

Thank you so much for that compliment. That's like the best compliment I've ever heard.

A (15:45)

Of course.

B (15:47)

So, yeah, you see, like, these big name designers come out with, like, collaborations with CB2 or different furniture lines. And I think that they must have, like, they must be really restrictive on what they can mass produce or something. Cause I feel like some of them are handcuffed a little bit with ideas. And so that's why I wasn't my goal to, like, partner with a big house. It was to make my own stuff. And I sort of. When I was designing, I didn't worry about, like, practicality in terms of, like, shipping costs and. And like, I didn't worry about those factors and profit margins and stuff. I was like, I'm just going to create and then like, we'll figure the rest out later. So I think that really helped is complete freedom and complete delusion and overconfidence and all that stuff.

A (16:34)

It's the only way to do it.

B (16:35)

Yeah, it really is. When I was designing these pieces, I mean, I was like a total crazy person. Like, literally not sleeping and just only doing that and then, like, thinking I had the most genius idea and then waking up and being like, what was I thinking? And starting all over. Like, it's just constant. And it was really.

A (16:53)

The creative process.

B (16:54)

Yeah, the creative process. And so, yeah, I'm proud of what. What the final result was is. You should be. Yeah. Thank you.

A (17:01)

So we have to talk about the Soul Study Light, because the Soul Study Light again. Google it, please, I'm begging you. But this thing has, I mean, taken at least TikTok by storm.

B (17:12)

Yeah.

A (17:13)

I mean, it's like a James Turrell, but in a more interesting way. Like, in a way that is capturing, like, the beauty of nature in a sunset or in a sunrise, but in, like, these large scale interesting shapes. That I think is what you think of when you think of James Turrell. I don't mean to imply that there's any copycatting. I just mean to say that, like, you took what was great about those, like, incredibly bespoke pieces and made them more accessible, but in a way that, like, I would still put them in a $10 million home. So, like, where. How did you get there? I'm just so fascinated by that because that feels like such a hard thing to do. Both.

B (17:53)

Yeah. Thank you for that. I. I tried to make pieces that I couldn't find, and if I could find them, they were like, you know, made in Milan and they were $15,000. Yep. And I also wanted them to be renter friendly because so many of my TikTok followers are renters.

A (18:10)

Great point.

B (18:10)

So I wanted to make a product that was, like, so cool and affordable and renter friendly and also, like, really cinematic and immersive and atmospheric because those are like, what I try to when I'm doing interior design. And I've been obsessed with lighting and lamps just as much as chairs for a very long time, as well as my big inspirations are nature, sunset, the moon and the ocean. So that's kind of like A theme you'll find throughout all my work. And I just saw, like, came up with the art and then I was like, well, what if it was like, what if you turned it on and then it made your whole house feel like golden hour? And so it kind of was like, happened naturally in stages. And I wanted also a lot of the pieces to have multiple functions. So art that's also a lamp or like an ottoman that has storage and things like that. I wanted everything to have two purposes.

A (19:05)

Well, and for people who are growing their furniture collection, starting young, and I mean, those are pieces that we want that we're craving. Cause you're in small spaces, you need everything to do double duty, especially when you're sort of starting off. But the fact that that also extends into like, higher end home, that's the piece that I think so few people get. Right. The idea that it could exist in a studio apartment in some random city, and it also could exist in this, like, designer, you know, designed home that's 10,000 square feet. Like, that aspect of it, I think is. Is fascinating. The other thing I want to commend you on which I realize this sounds a lot like you're so great, but like, guys, sorry, I just, I'm a little bit obsessed with you. One thing I've also noticed is take not even just customer, but potential customer feedback very seriously. And I've seen you adjust as this is rolling out to. To address things that people are asking for. That is, I feel like not something that everybody does or can do. What made you want to prioritize that?

B (20:12)

I think with TikTok, because TikTok is what's allowed me to do any of this. I know that it's important to, like, respond to comments, engage with people, take feedback seriously, not have an ego. And a lot of people don't even start their project or their dream because they want to have everything lined up and perfect. But I. I'm not. I don't have millions of followers. I'm still a relatively small creator. So it. That's a gift, that's a blessing because you get to roll something out and let it not be perfect and hear from people. And that is, I'm taking all that feedback into, you know, creating my next launch. And when I started TikTok, I started talking about one thing. And then as people were asking me more questions, my content changed to what people need help with. So I really appreciate, like, the feedback in the comments because it just, it guides me, it tells me where to go.

A (21:03)

I really relate to That I feel like, you know, sometimes feedback can be. Can feel like you only feel the negative side, but there is so much positive that comes out of the feedback loop that you get from TikTok or other social media. But I feel like, uniquely TikTok.

B (21:19)

Yes.

A (21:20)

Like, there is. There are people who are consulting for no dollars. Like, they are. They are giving you, like, everything you could ever want in a survey without asking, which sometimes can be a bad thing. But it can also, if, to your point, if you're willing to adjust and you don't have an ego, I mean, it can make you incredibly successful.

B (21:38)

Yeah. And I think a lot of people are, like, scared to give out free advice because then they think they won't get that client or like it will hurt them in some way. And I'm sure it can in some way. But I think online there's people, there's customers that they, they're not interested in figuring it out. They just hear that you know what you're talking about.

A (21:57)

So you're an expert.

B (21:59)

You're an expert. That's the takeaway. So I'm like, give all the knowledge because it just, it has come back tenfold.

A (22:05)

And by the way, if I were insecure enough to think that me giving out information on the Internet meant that someone could do my job.

B (22:12)

Yes.

A (22:12)

That would be a problem in itself.

B (22:14)

That's such a good point.

A (22:15)

So, like, I've never felt like, oh, if I tell other people how to be an interior designer or what they should do or what they should. Like, I've never, I've never felt threatened by that. Because that's.

B (22:26)

Yeah.

A (22:26)

I mean, that's part of it. Right. We wouldn't be doing. We wouldn't be the principal of the, of the firm if we didn't feel that way. And in some, I think, at least in some small way. So for me, and to your point, I've seen so much positivity come out of generosity without reciprocation.

B (22:43)

Totally.

A (22:44)

So just knowing that I'm going to try to give as much education and info as I can and hope that people will like it and reciprocate. But you can't bank on that because I'm sure, as you see, sometimes when someone first starts posting, sometimes you can almost like, smell the desperation for engagement.

B (23:03)

Yeah.

A (23:04)

And so can everybody else.

B (23:06)

Yes.

A (23:08)

And there is nothing that TikTok hates more than that. So I feel like if there's anybody listening who's like, I want to start my, my TikTok career, I think. Yeah. I mean, being Yourself exactly how you are with your clients and giving out as much as you can stand. It does come back.

B (23:27)

Totally. And I go on like, as a TikTok user, a scroller, I go on there to learn stuff all the time and all different business people or chefs or whatever. So you're gonna get viewers. If you're giving out knowledge, people will go on there to learn.

A (23:42)

Yes, yes, I completely agree. I feel like I've Learned more from TikTok than any other social media app I've ever used.

B (23:50)

100%.

A (23:51)

Because the access to experts is unlike anything else.

B (23:54)

Yes, completely agree.

A (23:55)

It just is. And I think the more that our clients are real, you know, the people who would hire us are realizing that they are going to TikTok to see who are the experts. Because I want to hire them.

B (24:07)

That's true.

A (24:08)

And that's then when you know you get great projects and you're like, sorry, what? You found me on TikTok. I'm sure you've had a couple of those moments where you're like, whose name is in my inbox? You found me on TikTok. Like, it feels wild.

B (24:21)

It's so wild. It's so wild and it's so magical. And I love TikTok so much and I hope nothing bad happens to it.

A (24:29)

Me too.

B (24:30)

God.

A (24:30)

I know, I know. Okay, last question before we get to confessions. You have essentially built in public this business.

B (24:39)

Yes.

A (24:40)

Is there any downside you've seen to building in public?

B (24:43)

Not yet. I mean, not yet.

A (24:45)

Fab. No other questions?

B (24:50)

No. It's very.

A (24:51)

Love that answer.

B (24:53)

Okay. Yeah. Pentin in it.

A (24:55)

Perfect. We'll come back to that if it ever comes up.

B (24:59)

Right.

A (25:06)

Let's get into some confessions. I'm excited.

B (25:10)

Me too.

A (25:11)

This confession has twists, turns and parental involvement. Let me start from the beginning. Earlier this year, I was contacted by a long term repeat client about their daughter, nearly my age, who had just bought a house and was not pleased with the current architect slash design team she had hired. These clients are notoriously sweet until they aren't. And I've had several challenges with them in the past. Nothing that couldn't be overcome. And their daughters seemed to be underwater. So I agreed for them to put us in touch on the console. The GC work was some of the absolute worst I've ever seen. Mind you, this was a GC referral she had from a family friend who did spectacular work in a home she had seen in person. Well, I think my kids could have done a better job installing base trim and hanging drywall it was bad. I pointed out all of the concerns I had while walking through which included an incorrectly installed shower curb and a shower pan tile that was definitely not rated for that use and had zero pitch towards the drain. She was sitting on a ticking time bomb and I told her that it was a mostly standard consult outside of the truly awful work she had paid for and was halfway completed. We ended things with her showing me a heap of wallpaper samples that she loved in her trunk. I wrote the contract, sent her initial inspiration and she signed on the dotted line. Then interesting things started happening. I requested a check for the initial design time retainer. Instead her dad, my long term client, started to sell me balances with her name in the memo field. She said she couldn't get the payment to go through our system. Okay, fine. Then I found out she had been laid off, which just didn't jive with how busy she was. More of the cracks appeared. Her emails were strings of thoughts, not a cohesive note, demands, passive aggressive. Then just aggressive with thanks so much all the best. Signing off. Nothing was happening fast enough for her and we were moving at a clip I normally wouldn't. I knew she wanted to feel settled. I wanted that for her too. And she became completely unreasonable when some tile which was made to order of which I communicated and she approved, didn't ship the same week argued with me that it's the job of the manufacturer to ship something that is in stock. That a one to two week lead time was outrageous. I did all the things, calmed her down and rushed what I could and it was installed beautifully. After that it was more demands for things not happening fast enough. She had paid the proposal for a painter and wallpaper installer. Then once emails started to circulate for scheduling after receiving the wallpaper that was going to take too long, she would find someone else to install and paint. Fine. It unraveled quickly. She said our ridiculous timelines were not going to work. By the way, these were some of the best I'd seen in five plus years and she wanted everything at the warehouse along with all the wallpaper delivered to her home and she would handle it from there. After a lot of raking myself over the coals, knowing I shouldn't have taken this job from the beginning and soul searching, I realized there was no making her happy. She's a miserable person and I would give her what she wanted. I had my attorney draft a letter explicitly laying out that I was not responsible for any part of delivery or install of her goods before officially firing Her. I tried calling her. She sent me to voicemail, then texted saying, work with my dad to get the wallpaper coordinated. I made her aware of the. Like, there's no other. I made her aware of the upcoming termination letter she could expect via email and gave a date that we would officially be off the project. Felt like I did more than my part to make this as right as I could, and I breathed a sigh of relief for the first time in months. It didn't end there. I did have to coordinate with her dad for the wallpaper drop off. She followed up several weeks after the termination was effective and told me that the window shades we ordered were incorrect on one window. No photos. After I requested nothing, I refunded her the amount for the single shade, then threatened me with small claims court. She had everything in her possession. She had no grounds, and she was still unhinged enough to make me panic. Let this be a lesson. When your gut tells you someone is certifiable, believe it. The money spent between my attorney and, frankly, my mental bandwidth in what was already a shaky time of my business wasn't worth what little I was left with in markup from the project.

B (29:07)

Oh, man. Nightmare. I've kind of been there. Nightmare.

A (29:11)

I have, too.

B (29:12)

Yeah, you just get those clients, you know, they're crazy. You can tell. And for some reason, you just keep going.

A (29:21)

And we've all done this, and I. Even though I know that I do it and I, like, know all the signs and I have everything set up, I still feel myself doing it.

B (29:29)

Yeah.

A (29:29)

And I don't even know if scarcity mindset is even the right phrase, because I think sometimes we use that, and it, like, applies shame when, like, we're business owners and we're trying really hard to keep things afloat and keep people paid. And sometimes you have to make a decision that it doesn't always feel great. And while, like, I eventually have gotten in my career where I can put people off and we do have some Runway, there are moments in my career where we did not totally. And if we didn't have the next contract, we weren't gonna be a business anymore. Yeah. So, you know, I think it's easy to sort of, like, shame yourself in this situation, but I feel that most designers have at least been in this situation once.

B (30:10)

Totally. At least. Yeah. That's such a good point. It's like we all started from somewhere, and there were so many years where, like, if I. I was desperate to get clients. So, like, you just put yourself in all these crazy situations.

A (30:22)

And sometimes when I am, I guess, in a more egotistical head space, I'll be like, well, you just have to wait and, you know, make sure you're, like, paying attention to, like, what you're looking for and blah, blah, blah. And it's just not always the reality of the situation.

B (30:36)

Right.

A (30:36)

And it sounds like she handled it well. I mean, there wasn't making this person. There wasn't any making this person happy, I don't think.

B (30:44)

Right. Exact.

A (30:45)

It sounds like they were going to have a problem with everything no matter what, which I've certainly had those types of clients and having a great attorney and being able to say, here's your termination letter. Yeah. Then, I mean, that's all you can really do. But it is. Those moments are hard as a designer.

B (31:02)

Yeah. I think the only thing she could have done better is stopped it sooner, but. Cause there's no better feeling than breaking up with a client that you need to break up with. And you're like, oh, my God, thank God, I'm almost done.

A (31:13)

That breath of relief is incredible. I think it's also, for me, and I've noticed this as a pattern, is that the client will hire us. Maybe, like, 99% of things are fine. There's, like, that one little niggling thing that you're just sort of like, hmm, I'm not sure how that's gonna go. And then you get more and more into the process, like, they're not gonna show you they're crazy right away. Right. And that's the piece that, like, I found really difficult because I've had some clients who are very good at hiding their crazy in the very beginning or even until halfway through. And then something happens, and they, like, either feel like they're turning into a different person or, you know, maybe something personal has happened that you're not always aware of that has changed the way that they're thinking about the process. But it's. I mean, it's very difficult when you're sort of, like, relying on another person to be reasonable.

B (32:07)

Totally.

A (32:08)

Because sometimes they're not.

B (32:09)

Yes. And you're so right. I've had a couple where they started off amazing, actually. I've even done one where we did a whole house together, and it was the best. And then the second house, it was like a different person.

A (32:21)

That's crazy.

B (32:22)

It's crazy.

A (32:23)

And how could you have made a different decision? You wouldn't have, because the first one went perfectly. Like how we. We don't have a crystal ball. And I wish I Did I really, really wish I did? Yeah, really wish I did. Okay, so we typically have penance for whoever we feel needs it in the story, which in my opinion, is probably the client. And I grew up Catholic, so penance is. Oh, my God. So you get it. I was about to be like. And here's. You know. But you understand clearly not Catholic anymore. Cause, you know. But. But. Well, I want to hear what you have to say, Taika.

B (33:00)

Okay. I am. I have not been a Catholic for maybe 15 years. Penance is when you're like.

A (33:05)

And by penance, I mean, like. No, no, no. It could literally be a martini. Like, it can be any. It can be like, sometimes I'll be like, they don't deserve to ever have a designer again. Or they should be like, it can be anything.

B (33:17)

Got it.

A (33:17)

Anything. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's serious. Anything. But also, if you don't have anything, I can jump in and you can jump in with me. Okay. Whatever you want. Okay. So penance wise, I kind of feel like the client. And again, I feel like I've said this in every episode lately. We need a database of bad clients, and she needs to be on it. Number one.

B (33:38)

That's so true.

A (33:38)

So if someone could start that database, I would be really grateful. Number two, I would say I do think she needs, like, a bit of a taste of her own medicine. So why don't I just say that I hope that there's a lesson in life for her soon where she realizes what an unreasonable person she has become. And I think karma will take care of it.

B (34:03)

Yes, it always does. And I think her dad needs to be burned by her in the same way that the designer was as well, because he's obviously confused, too.

A (34:12)

Yeah. I mean, if I were the dad, the penance would be, I'm not giving you any more money. Like, that would be my penance. But unfortunately, I don't think that's really how it typically works. Okay. And then penance for the designer. I mean, I think she needs a fat, very nice glass of wine and, you know, maybe to sign a really nice client. We're gonna send her good energy that she'll sign a really lovely client who will be normal, at least for the most part.

B (34:43)

Yeah, normal. And gives her control and lets her do whatever she wants.

A (34:47)

The dream project. Because I do think that's kind of how it works, the energy exchanges. And it'll come back.

B (34:53)

Totally.

A (34:54)

I'm very hippy dippy today, so sorry if you've been listening and you're like what's happening?

B (34:58)

Because New year, I don't.

A (35:00)

I don't really know what's happening. Okay, confession number two. This isn't really a confession, but more of a story that I love to tell because it was genuinely ridiculous. A few years ago, I was hired to design a fully custom new build house in the suburbs. The clients were a middle aged couple and they seemed normal enough. Enough being the key word there. I expected it to be a guest wing. And then a few meetings in, they expanded the scope to add on an extra wing to the house. Oh, I expected it to be a guest wing. Not too out of the ordinary. But I quickly realized they didn't mean for guests. They didn't even mean for family, at least of the human variety. They wanted a separate wing of the house for their cats.

B (35:49)

Oh, this would be me.

A (35:51)

I had to make sure I responded professionally because it was hard not to laugh. I asked what they meant in practical terms and that's when they told me they had six cats. Then they spent the next hour explaining the social structure of the cats to me. Two of them were a bonded pair and needed all their things together. One cat did not get along with the other so nothing of theirs could touch. Some were more dominant, some needed quieter areas. Certain cats like to observe rather than participate. All of this mattered. I ended up labeling them Cat 1 through Cat 6 just so I could keep track of there were diagrams. It was like solving one of those crazy logic puzzles. Except this was real life and the occupants couldn't be reasoned with and had very specific emotional needs. In addition to the cat specific wing of the house, they also needed the main house to work for the cats. Doors. Every single one had to have cat access. Interior doors, closets, laundry rooms. If a space existed, they had to be able to get into it. Finishes were another story. Nothing delicate, nothing that could tip or easily break. Every surface had to withstand clawing, be sturdy enough for jumping and a surface material that would prevent sliding. We even installed built in lounging areas under nearly every window. Each cat apparently had its own preferred sunlight schedule. And yes, the exact placement of each lounge was debated at length. We designed quiet zones for the introverted cats and elevated observation posts for the more dominant ones. The feeding stations had to be spaced far enough apart to prevent conflicts. And there were even a few small quote cat hideaways hidden throughout with recessed spots to hide in. I even learned that seven litter boxes were needed for six cats prevent potential conflicts. And those seven litter boxes also had to be placed strategically in the end, the house came together nicely, and the cats seemed to like it as much as any cat could. But it was funny because at some point, I realized that I wasn't designing a house for clients who had cats. I was designing a house for cats who allowed people to live with them. And what's even funnier is that it ended up being one of the smoother projects I've ever worked on because the cats never asked for revisions.

B (37:58)

Love. That's a dream.

A (38:01)

I kind of agree. I have a cat, and I would die for her, and she would hate if I brought other cats into the house. But, like, I. I mean, listen, if I had a massive house and I could just have some space.

B (38:14)

Yeah.

A (38:14)

One thing I don't fully understand is why have all that space for them and then let them rule your house, that sort of piece? And that's not to say that they couldn't, like, be in the home. The rest of the home.

B (38:26)

Right.

A (38:26)

But I feel like often you would be doing that to, like, mitigate what cats can cause in, like, a luxury home. So to still have to manage all of that and have a cat wig feels a little intense.

B (38:40)

It feels very intense. But I feel like, from what she said, there was no revisions. The client seemed normal and not enough. And, you know, I don't mind a crazy, specific client. If they're, like, communicating what they need and then they're nice about it, like, that's fine. Be as weird as you want to be.

A (38:59)

I mean, isn't that kind of the point of hiring a professional is to get to do, like, your crazy, weird visions and dreams and all that kind of stuff?

B (39:07)

Totally. Yeah.

A (39:09)

I would be worried that I would adopt, like, 50 cats, because if they had their own wing, I would be like, this is just now an animal shelter.

B (39:17)

This is. That's literally my dream. When I think about getting rich, I'm like, I'm gonna have a huge, like, part of my house that's just for cats, and then I'm gonna just save all the cats and it's gonna be a shelter.

A (39:30)

I mean, I think that's a great dream.

B (39:32)

Yeah. I have two cats, and I would love to get them out of my main living space.

A (39:36)

Yes. Like, I do totally get that. Because my cat, God, she loves a woven fabric, and she. I mean, she will just destroy it as soon as it comes in the house.

B (39:45)

Yeah.

A (39:45)

There's no.

B (39:46)

There's nothing to.

A (39:47)

I know, like, you can train them. People without cats say, but no, I have the most well trained do that has ever existed. And my cat is lawless. Like, she cannot be governed. There's no reasoning with her. So, I mean, you know, of all creatures, I do understand them having their own space to just destroy.

B (40:07)

Totally.

A (40:07)

It's the, like, in my head, I'm envisioning, you know, in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, and they have those tiny little arch doors that, like, that's what I'm envisioning in every single door in the house. It's like a little arch door that the cats can watch, which would be so cute. Which would be so cute. Also, if you're listening to this and you're like, this is crazy. I'm not a cat person. I recommend you get a cat because you will be once you get one.

B (40:36)

Yes, you will be.

A (40:37)

They change you.

B (40:38)

I never wanted a cat. I was driving down the freeway in Atlanta in the pouring rain, working on a makeover show, actually, and a cat ran across, like, five lanes of traffic in the rain. I thought I hit it. I pull over, we're screaming, and I go out and I'm trying to, like, get it without it running away from me and going into traffic.

A (40:57)

Oh, my God, that's so stressful.

B (40:58)

Finally get it. And it's been with me ever since.

A (41:01)

Oh, that was the universe.

B (41:03)

Yes.

A (41:05)

You're like. And they need a friend, obviously.

B (41:07)

Obviously. And they might need a third soon.

A (41:09)

Who knows? As you should. And then a wing.

B (41:12)

Yeah, exactly.

A (41:13)

The wing is coming soon. Incredible. I will say also, now that I'm thinking about it, at least of the pieces I know, all of them are very cat friendly that you made in your line. Did you do that on purpose or you weren't really thinking about it? It just naturally happened.

B (41:28)

I was totally thinking about it. I was trying to make them.

A (41:30)

I would love to hear that.

B (41:32)

Yeah. Pet friendly, kid friendly is like, no fuss is possible. Cool.

A (41:37)

So cool. Okay.

B (41:39)

Penance.

A (41:40)

I don't even know that anyone needs any penance in this situation. Although I feel like the owner's penance could maybe they get another cat. I think they need to bring another cat into that very fancy wing.

B (41:53)

I agree. It needs to become a shelter.

A (41:55)

Exactly. Definitely from a shelter. Definitely. Imagine that tiny little cage that they're in. And then they get to, like. I could cry thinking about it. They get to move into a wing.

B (42:03)

Of a house, a mansion for cats.

A (42:05)

Can you imagine?

B (42:06)

I know. I love that. I love both of these people in this story.

A (42:11)

Me too. And the penance for the designer is she needs to go also a adopt a cat. So, like, all the penance in this story is everyone gets another cat.

B (42:20)

Save the cats.

A (42:22)

I think that works. We talked a bit about your furniture line, but I want to talk a little bit more about a couple of individual pieces because I want to get, like, a little granular if we can. One of my favorite pieces is the stool ottoman that you have. That's burgundy, but there's also silver and maybe a couple of other colors that are high gloss. And like, that piece, I just have so many questions. How did you come up with that? Like, how did you get that finish that perfect?

B (42:57)

I, like, I do a lot. I start with clay a lot. Like, just, you know, moldable.

A (43:02)

Oh, fascinating.

B (43:03)

So I made, like, this mold. We scanned it and then figured out the best material. Tried it with wood, which is so beautiful and, like. But of course took way longer and was super heavy. And so we ended up using recycled fiberglass, which is super sustainable and great and lightweight and easy. That's brilliant. And easy to make into super structural shapes. And so then with fiberglass, you can, like, electroplate it. So that's how you get the chrome finish. It's like a cool. Some sort of process that I don't actually truly understand, but I know it's only possible with fiberglass, and it gives it that, like, mirror, like, perfect finish.

A (43:44)

Wow. Yeah, because it's an unlike any finish I've ever seen on other furniture. Like, you see lots of, like, lacquer and high gloss, and it just doesn't deliver.

B (43:54)

Yeah.

A (43:55)

On what I want it to. But that's really interesting that it's fiberglass. So, like, I'm. And I know I'm getting really granular now, but, like, when you're in the ideating process and you're like, okay, we. We can't do wood for the reasons you specified. Like, where do we go next? Are you, like, on Reddit, searching about, like, materials? Are you talking to your. To your factory? Like, how are you. Sorry. I know that's kind of specific, but I'm just so curious about the ins and outs.

B (44:22)

Yeah, I'm definitely talking to the factory and coming up with ways, like, to make it work. I didn't really think too much about fiberglass before.

A (44:31)

I wouldn't have.

B (44:32)

I actually had negative opinions of fiberglass just because I feel like it has a bad rep. But I learned that it's actually a really sustainable, great product to use in certain cases. And so, yeah, I'll be like, this is too heavy and this takes too long, and this is too expensive for a stool that's not My brand. How can we make this? And they'll be like, let's try foam. And I'm like, no, that's too cheap. And then so we kind of just like, have a dialogue. And then, like, the biggest thing I spent money on when starting this company was samples. So, like, paying to get the samples made and then having revisions and notes and then finally getting it right.

A (45:07)

Did you bootstrap this?

B (45:08)

I did. Yeah. Wow. Yep.

A (45:10)

You deserve, like, a major. That is incred. That's an accomplishment.

B (45:14)

Thank you. Yeah. I bet it all on myself. Basically put my whole entire life savings into it and just, like, prayed that it worked. And thank God the Soul Study Light came through for me, and I've made it all back already, so praise God.

A (45:30)

Wow. I have chills. That is. Congratulations.

B (45:34)

Thank you.

A (45:34)

Wow. I mean, I'm. I feel like I just watched, like, a sports movie. I have, like, that, like, inspiring heart swell of, like, I feel like I just watched Rudy.

B (45:48)

I was thinking that.

A (45:52)

Sorry, I'm not gonna start crying on this podcast, but that's really, really impressive. And you should be incredibly proud of yourself.

B (45:58)

That is. Thank you so much.

A (45:59)

Wow. I mean it. Okay. You just mentioned it's not my brand to have things be so expensive.

B (46:06)

Yeah.

A (46:07)

So that piece is. The other thing that I find so interesting is, like, these materials. And I told you I ordered things from your line, because when I saw it, I was like, how is this possible?

B (46:18)

Yeah.

A (46:18)

Like, your pricing was really good. The photos looked really good. And so I was like, surely there's gotta be. And I was watching your videos, and I was like, everything's looking good in videos, but you just can't know until you get them in person. And everything I've gotten, the quality is much better than things that are three and four and five times the price. How did, like, how did you create this perfect sort of situation? Because that's really what it. It feels like you've created.

B (46:45)

So what I did to make it affordable was a lot of companies will have, like, a big warehouse. They'll keep stock, and then they'll have to do all of the shipping from that warehouse. I just go straight from the factory to the customer, and I make things to order so I don't have to, like, put a bunch of money up.

A (47:04)

There's no inventory.

B (47:05)

No inventory. And the downside is people have to wait two months to get a product, but the upside is that they're not paying, like, thousands of dollars for something that shouldn't cost that much.

A (47:14)

Worth it, by the way.

B (47:16)

Yeah. Thank You. I agree. And also, I didn't mark things up so much that I could sell them wholesale or give, like, a 40% trade discount to other designers. I'm like. Like, it's. I'm. I'm making a margin that I'm comfortable with that, like, is so low compared to a normal furniture company. Like, if I was on Shark Tank, they would be like, get out of here with your. With your numbers.

A (47:42)

Your numbers are bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (47:43)

But it is. Yeah, it is more than enough for me right now at this phase. Maybe one day, because people do seem to be really bothered by the wait time. Maybe one day I will get a warehouse and then the. The margins will have to change. But for right now, I just wanted to be able to make dope stuff at a really reasonable price point. And it's. It's working for now.

A (48:05)

It's so interesting to me that people are giving you such a hard time about the lead time.

B (48:10)

Yeah.

A (48:10)

Because. Sorry, aren't we waiting for shitty big box sofas for, like, eight to 12 weeks anyway?

B (48:16)

Totally.

A (48:17)

Like, what's the. It can't be cheap, fast and good.

B (48:22)

Exactly.

A (48:24)

Period.

B (48:24)

Pick two. And the thing is, this is pick two.

A (48:27)

You can have two.

B (48:28)

This is the thing. So you have people at a certain, like, income level that are used to buying furniture where you have to wait eight to 12 weeks. That is like, standard. They have no issues. And then they are so shocked about how affordable it is. And then you have people who maybe is shopping only on Amazon and Wayfair and Target.

A (48:49)

And so you're converting a different customer than is in this space right now. I see. Okay.

B (48:55)

So it's a real mix.

A (48:57)

That makes sense.

B (48:58)

Yeah.

A (48:59)

You're bringing people out of the Timu sheen like Amazon get it next day.

B (49:05)

Yes.

A (49:05)

And instead, it's worth it to buy something that's quality and is going to take a little bit longer. I mean, I really hope we're about to see a big swing the other way.

B (49:15)

Yeah, me too.

A (49:17)

I really hope and I see it with looks like people not wanting, like, to watch people with veneers, not wanting to watch people with that, like, look sort of, like, robotic. Cause we're having a harder and harder time figuring out what's real and what's AI.

B (49:30)

Yes.

A (49:31)

So, like, the more imperfections, sort of the better.

B (49:34)

Yep.

A (49:35)

And I think that I'm hopeful that that will swing into interiors and, like, the more handmade, the more individual, the slower. And I mean, not like 24 weeks, but you know what I'm saying? Like, things Being made by a person. I'm hoping that that gets the general public to understand a bit more. Yeah, but would you say that's one of your biggest pain points? Just it, like, right now in the business is. Is lead times.

B (50:00)

Right now, the. Yeah, the biggest pain point is lead times, for sure.

A (50:03)

Or people who are complaining about lead times. It's not even really the lead times fault.

B (50:07)

Yeah, totally.

A (50:08)

I feel like aren't educated about it.

B (50:10)

Exactly. And I. I try not to, like, engage in any way that's, like, spicy or sassy with commenters, but that has been tough to be. Like, it says it on website. It hasn't even been 30 days.

A (50:21)

When you buy it, it literally says what the lead time is. Yeah. I mean, I do think that there are some people who are literally not reading anything and they're just clicking by, and then it's your problem that they didn't read the fine print.

B (50:34)

Yeah.

A (50:35)

And that is not. I mean, you can't fix.

B (50:37)

Stupid. Exactly.

A (50:38)

That's not really anything that we can.

B (50:40)

Do about it, but. Right.

A (50:41)

Final, final, final question for furniture line. Can you give us a little sneak peek about what's next?

B (50:47)

Yes. I am coming out with a sofa that is modular and will fit anyone's space and in some really fun colors. I can tease that one of the colors is the most perfect pink ever, because it's so hard to find a good pink sofa. So I'm really excited about it.

A (51:03)

It's so hard to find. Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

B (51:06)

Yeah, it's gonna be cool. And then some coffee tables, a bed, more. The big pieces. Yeah. So I'm really excited for the next launch.

A (51:15)

And to your point, in the very beginning, the hole in the market for those items at this price point and this quality level.

B (51:21)

Yeah.

A (51:22)

I mean, it's a chasm. So I'm really glad that you're filling it.

B (51:27)

Yes. Amazing. Thank you.

A (51:29)

How does designing for the camera change the way you work and think about things like scale and color compared to designing for real life?

B (51:36)

Designing for the camera has definitely helped me be a better interior design designer because I'm always thinking about, like, how things will look on camera. I'll even, like, when I'm staging a client's home, I'll have my iPhone out and just look at everything through my iPhone. Oh, smart. And then it's like I can see better through the phone than my eyes. And I'll be like, oh, we need something right here. But I don't see it when my phone's down.

A (51:58)

Oh, that's fascinating.

B (51:59)

Yeah, you should try it. It's really helpful.

A (52:02)

I will.

B (52:02)

Yeah.

A (52:03)

Like, you almost can't see it until you frame it up. Yes, that's. So I'm gonna start doing that.

B (52:08)

Yes. So that, I think, is, like, super helpful to think. And a lot of people are. They want their house to be photographed or they want to photograph their house. And so, like, looking at it through a lens is helpful to create those vignettes. But I like. My style as an interior designer is very cinematic. And so my background in TV definitely helped with that. One thing that's a little different is, like, in tv, you want stuff on every wall, because if the camera's on a person and there's, like, just white behind their head, it looks. It's.

A (52:39)

It's not gonna look good.

B (52:39)

So, like, we always have a ton of plants or a ton of art on the walls. And you stage differently for TV than you do a real home. Like, in a real home, I don't mind, like, a. A breath of a. A wall, but in tv, you have to put something there.

A (52:52)

And in tv, would you ever edit post shot, meaning that, like, once the reveal was done and they had gotten all the footage they needed, would you guys ever remove things or would you sort of keep it how it was? Because, I mean, I guess they paid for it if it was going in the space.

B (53:09)

Yeah. So there's. Every show I've worked on, they get to keep it completely. But there are shows where, like, they pay for a staging company, and then the staging company removes it, takes everything. Yes. And I refuse to do those shows. Cause it's.

A (53:24)

No, that's insane.

B (53:25)

It's soul crushing. Yeah.

A (53:27)

Yes. How sad for the owners. My goodness. Because as we know, that final layer makes a huge difference.

B (53:35)

Totally.

A (53:35)

And. And to see it done and then undone, that would be very difficult.

B (53:40)

It's the worst.

A (53:41)

Okay. You talk about using design as a tool for healing and stress relief. How do you implement this in your designs? And I'm so curious. Cause I need this bad. I need stress relief in a big way.

B (53:52)

I have, like, severe anxiety, as, like, so many of us do. And so curating my home to, like, work for me and where I come home and I'm not stressed has been crucial. And I've seen how I can do that for other people. And so that's. That's been, like, part of my design philosophy is how, like, your home should work with your mental health and aid in you feeling at peace. But that looks different for so many people. Like, for Some people, they want their home office to be, you know, sage green and Zen and, you know, whites and neutrals, because they want to feel calm in their office. Whereas me, I need to feel inspired in my office. So I like bright colors, lots of art. So I just encourage people to ask themselves a lot of, like, personal questions, like, what makes you laugh? What's your favorite vacation, Favorite memory? These things, like, help us, like, figure out, like, truly deep down in the person what they need emotionally. And I think, like, starting from the emotional place is the best. Best starting point. I try not to let my clients start with a Pinterest photo and try to get real, like, deep with it.

A (54:57)

What's your favorite vacation? Is one of my. The best questions I've ever heard to ask a client because you get. You learn so much about them. Just that one answer.

B (55:06)

Yeah. It's kind of everything. If it's only one question, it could be that. Yeah.

A (55:10)

Yeah. I'm gonna start implementing that. If I. If it's okay if I jack that. Please. My goodness, that is. Cause, I mean, I would think about, like, my answer, and my answer would. Would tell you a lot about me that I value, like, nice places. I'm always gonna pay for a hotel. I'm not the person who's like, we're only gonna be in the room for a little bit.

B (55:29)

Yeah.

A (55:29)

No, no, no.

B (55:30)

Yep.

A (55:30)

Like, you know, there's a lot that it tells you about, even just, like, what country you're in.

B (55:34)

Yes.

A (55:34)

So that's. I mean, I don't need to tell you, but. But that is.

B (55:37)

That's.

A (55:37)

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna write that down because I'm gonna make sure we do that.

B (55:42)

Yeah. I love that.

A (55:48)

You were just talking about feeling and emotion and design. Our tagline for CTI is interiors that make you feel. What is something that made you feel recently? It can be anything in. It doesn't just have to be interiors.

B (56:02)

Mm. I recently watched the movie Stepmom with my mom with Julia Roberts, and it's not Diane Keaton. It's Susan Sarandon. Yeah.

A (56:16)

Who is it?

B (56:16)

Susan Sarandon. Oh, my God. Sobbing on the couch. And I haven't cried in a long time. And I was like, wow. I mean, it was just so heartwarming and women coming together, and that made me feel all the feels.

A (56:30)

It's our version of Rudy. I mean, I get it.

B (56:34)

Totally.

A (56:36)

I'm gonna have to go watch that. I think I've only ever seen that once, like, when it came out. Maybe. I don't really remember.

B (56:43)

Oh, give it a rewatch. It is. It wrecks you.

A (56:46)

I'm going to. Yeah, I'm gonna have to do that. I did just cry today, so I should maybe give myself a minute. But next time I need a good trial, I'll put that on the list.

B (56:57)

Perfect.

A (56:59)

Okay, we are finally at the end. Thank you so much. This has been so fun. I could talk to you for hours but as we've just discussed, you're incredibly busy so I need to let you get on with your life. Last thing is where can we find you?

B (57:13)

You can find me on Instagram and TikTok Tyka Pride on both. T Y K A P R Y D E and check out my website.

A (57:22)

Tykapride.Com and make sure you do that because you're going to be incredibly impressed. Taika, thank you so much.

B (57:29)

Thank you Caroline.

A (57:30)

Until next week. Peace be with you.

B (57:33)

Bye.