A (2:58)

Completely agree.

B (2:59)

Right. So when she said this, I was like, wait, what? That's a career?

A (3:03)

Yes.

B (3:03)

Great.

A (3:04)

That was my reaction as well. I was like, wait, what do you mean? I can make money doing that. Yeah, sign me up. That's what I've been looking for.

B (3:11)

Yeah, literally. So I was living in New York City at the time, as I mentioned, and I started looking at programs. And Parsons had a program, a certificate program. I didn't need to give transcripts, which probably wouldn't have been impressive. And. And I signed up, and I was forced by my parents to take it for credit in. In the event that I wanted to use them in a deeper capacity. Anyway. And while, like, in my first semester, I had a lot of extra time because, you know, the school, it was. I was only taking a class or two a semester, and I looked at internships, and I asked one of my mom's fancy friends, like, what are the fancy design? And I say that tell the story a lot. And I remember that she said, mark Hampton, Parrish, Hadley. And I don't even remember the third, but it doesn't matter because I never even got to the third. And I cold called Mark Hampton, and they brought me in for an interview for an internship, and they hired me. And I was, like, so excited because, you know, it's next to Barney's rip.

A (4:10)

That was the era, though. Like, you were in it in the best time, probably. Oh, my gosh.

B (4:15)

I was, wow. Alexa had recently lost her father, Mark, so it was a really, like, a period of transition for Mark Hampton. And, yeah, we were kind of like kids together figuring it out, I guess. I mean, she wasn't figuring it out. I was. But I think in some ways, you know, it was like a unique environment because she was very young to the office as well, and it was a very young office, and that was exciting. And within about six weeks, she hired me I think as her assistant. And then pretty quickly after that, I started in a design assistant role, and I just sort of built my career there.

A (4:54)

Amazing. You said that you cold called. And I famously also did a lot of cold calls in the beginning of my career. What do you think about a cold call now? Like, what. What do people cold call you? Do you like it?

B (5:06)

I'm sure they do. They don't get to me quite as easily because we were.

A (5:10)

Of course.

B (5:11)

But I believe in. You know, we've hired people who've come in for an internship position and been like, wait, are you actually looking for a design position? Cause they're open. I mean, you just don't know where a firm is, right? I. I think there's never a problem with doing something out of the ordinary and just sort of jumping in headfirst and taking chances.

A (5:31)

I completely agree.

B (5:33)

I think people are often, like, too concerned about protocol and therefore don't do things. I think I didn't know any better. I hadn't had any proper training completely. I think, like, I heard one Sarah Blakely talking about this with Spanx. Like, she, like, had an interview or something at someone at, like, Bloomingdale's or Saks or Neiman's or something, and, like, was trying to explain how amazing Sachs are and, like, literally asked the girl, like, come to the bathroom with me. I need to show you this.

A (6:00)

Yes, yes.

B (6:01)

Do you know?

A (6:02)

Yes, I do. And she literally was like, okay, we'll put him in her. She saw in her white pants that she didn't have lines. Oh, my God. I mean, she is a true genius.

B (6:12)

No, and I just think it's. She's, like, my idol. But I do think that, like, that's such an example of, like, someone doing something that's so inappropriate, but worse because she didn't know it was inappropriate. Do you know, so cold calling feels similar. Like, all right, like, what's. What is someone gonna be mad at you because you, like, attempted to get a job? Like, that's not a crime.

A (6:34)

Well, yeah, exactly. And I have had people say, don't. You can't just call out of the blue, like, well, I wanna talk to you. I feel like it's true. Like, naivete in some ways helps, can help your career. If you're willing to just ride that in the beginning, you can get away with a lot. And, I mean, I've had, you know, we get people inquiries all the time. But the person who cold calls me, it shows me, like, okay, they have guts enough because we have to do hard things in our job all the time. They have enough guts that they're willing to do that. So they'll be willing to do it like on the other side. And I think that makes such a big difference.

B (7:09)

I agree. It shows like a level of industriousness.

A (7:12)

Yes, absolutely.

B (7:13)

And grit and persistence and resilience because you might get shot down. Like, it's all these good qualities.

A (7:20)

Yes, I completely agree.

B (7:21)

Yes. Cold call.

A (7:23)

Okay, so we're saying cold call more, but not us.

B (7:28)

You can call. Call me. Permission.

A (7:31)

I love it. I love it. Okay, I'm sorry I interrupted you. So you end up with Alexa Hampton and that, I mean, you learned, I'm sure, so much.

B (7:39)

I did. And it was an incredibly interesting experience because what I didn't know in my naivete and lack of research, because I've never been one to research similar to I just was on a client meeting and popped in here with two minutes to spare.

A (7:54)

The only way.

B (7:54)

I sort of believe in that way.

A (7:56)

There's too much to do.

B (7:56)

Yeah, I do too. I'm like, whatever, this will be great. So I did learn a lot because it was really interesting because I didn't realize that Mark Hampton was such a traditional designer. I really didn't know anything about Mark or Alexa and I only knew that they had this fabulous address and this. It was a fancy firm and I grew up in a mid century modern home with pop art. And then I walked into this like chintz filled, you know, like box pleats, all the stuff, all the things. And I was like, what's happening? But I'm so thankful for it because you know, how they work and their design is obviously some of the best work. And. And so learning a new media medium, sort of like a new aesthetic in the best way was very helpful to shaping my work. And I think is why my work, I hope, doesn't come off as one note or obvious or derivative or things that I'm terrified of. And I very much think it's like the sort of marriage of the two experiences along with person. So maybe three. Sure.

A (9:06)

I mean, I don't think you could have said that better. I think that's exactly what your work reflects, is you've sort of gone to multiple sides of the industry and then been able to bring it all home in a really harmonious way that clearly people resonate with. I mean, that's what I think of as some of the best designers in the world are that way.

B (9:27)

Yeah. So I was just having a meeting recently or just right before this actually and we've been doing this beautiful work and my client is very chic and she sat down and she's like, you know, I'm just feeling like it just might be a little too dusty. And I said, great, let's do an edit. Because I agree it's feeling a little one note. And you're so chic and young and that's not showing up the parts where it's a historic townhouse and we want to have reference to that. And we like the layered, sort of British look that has shown up, but where's, like, the cool, like, messed up, contemporary, unexpected tension? And so we just went in. That's literally why I was here. Two. Two minutes to spare. Because we were doing this edit where we were, like, sort of peeling back the layers and adding in the unexpected art and moving pieces around so everything doesn't feel the same. And that's exciting to me. And I sort of looked at her, I was like, you know, this is more me and this is more you. And I'm really glad we are now showing up in this experience.

A (10:32)

I love that because I have had that experience as well, where a client will look at you and just be like, it's almost there, but not quite. And this is so stupid, but I have chills thinking about it. Why is that when you then do your absolute best work, Like, I feel like I have some of my best spaces to show for a conversation like that, where the client was willing to say, like, we are almost there. We're missing that element. And I mean, I like to say, like, you need something fucked up in a space to make it interesting. I don't think that everything can be so perfect and matchy and in its place, or else it can feel very stale, for lack of a better word. And no one wants to live in that. Like, we're all multifaceted people, and I think our interiors should show that.

B (11:17)

Yes, I agree with that. And I think that it's a bit like redlining on architecture plans. It's why, like, we do try to design in a way that is comprehensive and can we kind of consider everything. But I'll never be able to just hand over work in an unedited way. Like, I do have to seep in it a bit. I do have to marinate in a bit. I. That is important to me.

A (11:41)

Absolutely.

B (11:42)

It will remain important to me. We also will never make as much money because of it, because I make changes and I do things.

A (11:48)

Amen.

B (11:49)

Yeah. And that's just the truth. But that's okay. Because I'm proud of the work, and I really want to feel proud of the work.

A (11:56)

I feel the same way. I'm okay to not make as much money if I can sleep at night knowing that we ultimately did our best work and took responsibility. And I think it's something that comes with growth. You've been at this a long time, and so knowing that you probably could churn and burn and create a style and have it all be the same and grow massive and just churn out a ton. But, I mean, as it's clear in your work, that's not. You're not that type of designer. And while there's obviously room for that, I think the type of design that I feel so strongly about protecting is that. And that, you know, and I've tried to do the same thing. I don't think we'll ever be a massive firm because I want to be able to keep myself in all of it for the most part, especially the creative aspect, because that's why people are hiring us.

B (12:47)

Right. I agree with that.

A (12:48)

Has that been something that has been a push and pull for you as you grow of, like, what do you let go of to be able to manage more? How has that sort of gone for you?

B (13:01)

Yes. I mean, at the moment, we're sort of in this sweet spot. We're about 30, 35 employees, and only a portion of those are designers. We also have a procurement team and a marketing team and an accounting team. And so I don't know how many designers we have. Maybe 16 designers. Something like this.

A (13:22)

That's still a lot to manage for one head designer.

B (13:26)

Yes. Well, we're on groups. Like, we're in teams. And so I think there's four teams. Maybe it's 14 designers. I don't remember. Sure. At the moment, I'm still able to act as creative director, still be in client meetings when I want to be. I have learned to pull back some because I really trust the people I work with. I also think that's important to the health of a business and to the health of employees and to feel, you know, I always, always wonder how much they actually want me, how much they need me. I worry that, like, am I giving enough? Am I not giving enough? And that's currently my struggle. Like, where do I pop in, where do I pull out, where do I let them not fall? But, like, maybe they fall or maybe they succeed. What do they often do without me? Or at least not without me in the way I used to show up? But I don't Know, so that's been interesting. At the moment, I remain very involved, but I do feel a sense of freedom in the last couple years in my growth that has allowed me to have way more balance in my life.

A (14:28)

Amazing.

B (14:29)

While still being heavily involved on the design side of things and on the marketing side of things, which has been getting increasingly interesting at our firm.

A (14:38)

Yes.

B (14:39)

Yeah.

A (14:39)

A big portion of my time goes to our marketing side, I would say. And it's. I mean, the ROI is crazy, so it continues to make sense to do it that way. Well, congratulations. Cause I feel like that's the place that all business owners want to get to, which is you're still heavily involved, you're still running the business that you built, but you're able to let the people that you trust ultimately do their jobs. And I do think from my experience, it makes them more invested.

B (15:03)

Like, they.

A (15:04)

If they're given some rope, I think they want to do well. Something for me that I've had to learn, especially recently, is that even if it wasn't the way I would have done it, it doesn't make it wrong. And that's something that I still am learning how to maneuver. Because, of course, when you're the designer and you've thought about it a certain way for so long but maybe not vocalized it, and then something happens a different way, which the client loves. There's no issue with, like, everybody loves. I think it's ego to just be like, no, somebody else did it just as well, even if it's different. But that, I think, is, as we grow, something that, you know, I have to work on. So when you left Alexa Hampton and all of that, you started your firm, I mean, right before the crash, I guess, four years before the crash. How was that all for you? And how do you feel? Like you now have gotten to, like, almost 35 employees?

B (16:03)

Because I left New York, and I used to be married to someone else and got married, and we moved to Florida on. On the heels of 9, 11. Not quite. It was like, in 20, I guess it was like 2004, but it was. New York was still healing. It wasn't quite definitely.

A (16:21)

There was a couple of years. It was ricocheting, for sure.

B (16:24)

And so, anyway, we decided to move, and I couldn't work for somebody else because I'd been at such a high level, I'd been working in such an incredible firm that there was nothing. I was moving to the west coast of Florida. There was nothing that was going to replicate it. And I think I tried for a minute and, like, quickly knew I couldn't do this, and so I was like, all right, well, I'll just open my own firm, which I for sure was not ready to do. So the first few years of my career were a disaster. And I apologize to all the people listening who might have paid me to do their home. I just was not learning experience. Yeah, I just was not there yet. I originally had a business partner who funnily still works with me, but is on the accounting side. But she decided she could not have her own firm, so she left. We came back together years and years later, which is just funny. Yeah.

A (17:18)

Yeah.

B (17:18)

Not as partners, but anyway. So that's just so interesting. Anyway, so she bailed. Then I was left alone, and I was like, shit. Then I got divorced.

A (17:28)

Rough couple years, man.

B (17:29)

Yeah, dude, it was rough, but, I mean, it was all a disaster. And so then I thought I'd move back to New York, but I decided to move to Washington, D.C. i could easily get to New York. I had close friends here, and it just kind of made sense for me at the time. And so I moved to D.C. i moved to Georgetown, and I was doing a job in the Hamptons, so I was sort of commuting back and forth. I've never really left New York, to be honest. I mean, I've always had clients in New York and a presence in New York. So when we decided to open the New York office, you know, it was kind of very natural fit.

A (18:00)

Congratulations, by the way.

B (18:01)

Thank you. I started to establish myself here in D.C. and, you know, like, everything else, I got, like. I had this neighbor across from me. She's actually currently my client again right now, after years.

A (18:10)

The best.

B (18:11)

Yeah, but. And she and I became very close, and we were living across the street, and she had done this Renault, and she was, like, not real happy with her designers, and she'd been working through the process and felt like she'd lost control. And she asked me if I would step in and kind of help add her to the experience and send them this, like, beautiful canvas. And so that was probably my big break here in terms of clients. And then I did a show house. And this, I think, is good for your viewers to hear.

A (18:38)

I think so, too. I'm so interested in this.

B (18:41)

So similar to the internship, I was asked to do a show house, and I really didn't have any money, and I really didn't have many clients, and I had one, I think, intern who was working with me, and I said yes. I was like, all right. Like, maybe it'll actually put me on the map. Like, nobody knows who I am. Like, I may as well be a fully invisible person. And I decided in that moment, I was like, I'm just going to go all in. I don't really have a lot of clients anyway. And even if I do, they're not putting me on the map because they don't have the budget, too, and they don't have. Like, this just isn't the play. This is the play. Like, I'm going to have a bunch of people going through. It was happening at the Design center in Washington, dc, So I knew. I knew. Yes, it was with other designers. And I got the worst room. I got the biggest room. I had to fully build it out.

A (19:31)

With the least amount of money.

B (19:33)

Yeah, totally. It was horrible, but it was great. And I just put all my energy into it. And in the end, the room was amazing. Wow. And we got amazing press, and it was so worth it. So that I think put us on the map here in D.C. and, like, got people going, oh, who is this person? Like, do you know?

A (19:52)

Yep.

B (19:52)

And that was incredible. So I count that as, like, a pivotal moment in my career.

A (19:59)

And I think we all have those where we look back and are like, this could have gone so differently, and it would have changed everything. It's so brave to do that and to be like, well, I don't really have the resources that probably these other designers do, but I'm still going to make it look just as good as theirs, if not better. I mean, and then, of course, they put you on the map because you were able to, like, show your ultimate, which is the perk of a show house. I hem and haw every couple years when the Lake Forest Show House comes up, because it's always a question. And I do think show houses have maybe changed a bit since then. They've gotten a little. I won't say out of control, but a little intense. Like, the amount that people are spending is like upwards of a hundred thousand dollars on one room. That feels intense to me. But there's the amount of, like, even just marketing that comes from that. It's. I mean, it can be worth it, especially for designers who, to your point, don't quite their name out there yet.

B (20:51)

Yeah. And I just called in all my favors. I've always been a loyalist when it comes to vendors. I think that's really helped me because I feel like even if you're not at the budgets, you want to be and you're not getting the work you want, if you're using vendors that you trust, and they trust you, and you're able to say, well, listen, I spent X amount with you last year. I mean, that's still significant, and they're going to help you more totally. That's really important. Especially when I still think it's important. I remain a loyalist to our vendors, but I think that it was really important to my growth. Yeah.

A (21:23)

Yeah, that's an excellent point. I. I certainly have people I've come up with in the industry, and I'll speak for myself. The brands that supported me when I was coming up are. Even if our clients can afford more expensive brands now, they're always going to be in our rotation because they were the people who helped me get there, which is worth something for sure.

B (21:40)

Correct? Correct. Correct, Correct.

A (21:47)

Before we get into confessions, what's your vice?

B (21:49)

It used to be cigarettes. That's not anymore.

A (21:54)

Very. The era that you were, you know, first working in, I mean, your early 20s, that was, like, the peak time to be smoking cigarettes. It was the best, coolest era.

B (22:02)

It was the coolest era. What is it now? What's my vice? Rachel? Do I have a vice? Oh, I do like candy.

A (22:12)

That's a good one.

B (22:13)

Okay. I like.

A (22:14)

That's a good one, Sugar. Because I think that designers, at least from my experience, have a. People think very specifically about us, and they think we only eat salads. Like, every time I'm around people and I'm ordering something, they're like, just no salads. Are you. What? Okay. It seems like every designer is a salad designer. At least in Chicago, we get that comment all the time from, like, delivery guys and photographers and stylists and all of that. And it always makes me laugh because it's like, just no sweetgreen.

B (22:41)

I mean, I do eat a lot of salad.

A (22:43)

I mean, there's nothing wrong. I just think it's funny that it's sort of our connotation.

B (22:49)

I don't know if I have a vice other. I mean, I gave up cigarettes and that, and. And it's funny because I never considered myself a real smoker. I just smoked socially, and I was very social.

A (23:00)

I think that's great. That's a great line. Amazing. Okay, well, thank you for indulging me. I'm really excited. These confessions are fun. So let's get into it. A couple of years ago, I was hired by an influencer in West Hollywood who wanted me to redo her entire apartment. On paper, it sounded like a fun project. She had the budget, the vision, and she wanted the whole Thing turned around quickly. I thought, great, let's do this. The catch was, she was never actually there. Every time I tried to schedule a meeting, she was in New York or Miami or just landed in Paris. Can we do next week? Weeks turned into months because she'd disappear right in the middle of decision making. I'd send her three carefully curated tile options, and instead of a quick yes or no, I'd get silence. Meanwhile, contractors were calling me daily, needing answers on lighting, flooring, paint colors, and I'd be sitting there with my hands tied, trying not to lose my mind. Then, inevitably, at 2 in the morning, my phone would buzz with a text like, can we make it feel more coastal? Coastal where? Malibu? Cape Cod? Greece? I'd follow up, asking what she meant, and of course, radio silence. The whole time, I was basically juggling a moving train. Tile orders needed to be placed, lead times were shrinking by the day, and the install schedule kept shifting. At a certain point, I just started making educated calls to keep things on track, praying I was still somewhere in the neighborhood of her vision. It was less design, more damage control. The irony. She was the one pushing for it to be done so fast. She'd vanished for two weeks straight, then popped back in with, why aren't we further along? As if I hadn't been running triage behind the scenes, trying to keep the whole thing from falling apart. By the end of it, I felt like a crisis manager instead of a designer. Eventually, we wrapped it. She wasn't there for the install, sent an assistant to keep an eye on things. But once it was done, the post started happening. Full apartment tours, tagging all the brands we used, and talking about how she, quote, spent the last few months pulling everything together and how she'd, quote, learned so much about design. No mention of the designer, no mention of the team, not even a casual thanks to everyone who helped bring this to life. Just a simple narrative where the every detail I'd spent months agonizing over looked like it had materialized out of her Pinterest board. Obviously, this was frustrating, and I felt like the work I'd put so much effort into was totally unrecognized and unappreciated. But what I truly learned from this experience is that some clients don't want a collaborator. They want someone to do the work in the background so they can promote a lifestyle from the results. Lesson learned. I feel like this is a juicy topic, so I'd love to hear your thoughts, but I certainly have some as well.

B (25:44)

Well, first of all, did she get.

A (25:46)

Paid it sounds like she did. I feel like she would mention if she didn't. So, yes, it sounds like she got paid.

B (25:53)

So it sounds like she didn't have a marketing contract in play, correct?

A (25:56)

That is what it sounds like. Yes.

B (25:59)

But if you get paid and you get paid fairly, then they don't really have a responsibility to credit you. I mean, they can, but they're under no obligation to. I mean, when I deliver someone their home, I then publish it anonymously, typically, unless they want to not be anonymous, which is great. But it's very rare. And, like, if they throw a dinner party, they're gonna speak to their design how they're going to speak to the design. I'm sure they're not, like, blasting my name. I mean, I hope that they are, but I've had that happen to me where people I like listen to my client in front of me talk about, like, how they figured this whole dining room out, and I'm like, did you?

A (26:34)

That's so crazy. I was there. Yeah. No, and I think all designers have had that to some extent. You're legally. They're not required. We, however, have decided that we're putting in a clause that essentially says, like, if you are creating content about our spaces, then you legally have to credit us. But to your point, if they're having a dinner party, that's not something that, you know, if it's in their everyday life, that's not something we can control.

B (27:03)

Or if they haven't. If you haven't put that clause in or you don't have a marketing contract, then you. Unfortunately, it's just an ethical question now, like, do you think she was unethical? Yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of gross. I wouldn't personally behave that way in any artistic medium. I over credit people. I try to credit the people I work with. Even, like, I'll be like, oh, Tenley came up with this idea. You know, one of our designers, you.

A (27:24)

Know, I do the same. Yep.

B (27:26)

I just feel gross. Like, stealing someone's idea and passing it off as my own. That's just not who I am personally. But that it's not illegal. Right. You know, it's just like an ugliness. And then the part about losing control of the project or not every. Having control.

A (27:41)

Yeah.

B (27:41)

I mean, that's just tough. And you can try and put a bunch of guardrails in, like, oh, you know, we always start our projects. Like, we'll be talking every however long, and then you'll have X amount of time. You know to come back with edits. But like, again, like those things don't sometimes just get shitty clients and like.

A (27:58)

They don't hold up. Like there's not really much you can do. I mean, we've had the same thing where like if we don't hear from you for X amount of time, like we can terminate the contract if we don't. But the reality of the situation is, do we do any of those things?

B (28:10)

Not often.

A (28:11)

Not really, no. Yeah. Unless they're just complete assholes and we want them off our list completely. And then of course it's helpful to have the verbiage to be able to use. But on the everyday of like, I mean, I know that you work with high profile people too. They're just naturally busy. So it's like, how do you manage a grown adult who's paying you but like wants you to stay on track for a certain time? I mean we, we run into that occasionally where it's like we're getting lots of pressure to make things happen quickly, but then we can't get answers.

B (28:43)

Right.

A (28:44)

But I mean, all we can do is communicate and say we know you want this quickly. If we don't get an answer by X, it won't happen when you want it. I mean, right.

B (28:52)

We do the same thing. When I'm worried about something, I just like discuss it at nauseam in hopes that should they not heed our warnings that it won't come back on us, at least they'll remember that we said. That's what I meant.

A (29:04)

We needed to say.

B (29:05)

Like, I'll almost make things into a joke that I'm like actually concerned about. So it becomes like, like a private joke, like within our group. Like, oh my gosh, Zoe, she's always asking me about do I have enough storage?

A (29:16)

Yep.

B (29:17)

And I'm like, I know because I'm really concerned you have enough storage and I don't want to move you in. And you're like, oh my gosh, I don't have enough storage. Because we're going to all remember that. I said you don't have enough storage because I'm not going to be like, on July 28, you said you didn't need storage. Like, I'm never going to do that. Okay, the, I think the takeaway from this, the bigger takeaway is if you are going to work, which we do with influencers, celebrities, anything like that, you have to have a marketing contract in place because you know that the whole play here is the marketing. You even can be thoughtful about how you charge them, maybe you're charging them less so that you can get some marketing out of them. Do you know? I mean, because if they charge them full price, they're probably not going to sign a marketing contract. Why would they? Like, they're. But if you say, listen, I would typically charge this amount instead I'll charge this amount and in lieu of the full payment, I would like these marketing assets or do, you know, whatever.

A (30:10)

I think that's a great point. I think the more that we can upfront discuss and truly, it sounds like this was their first time working with someone more high profile. I think we all have that it's hard to know how that individual person's going to work. And so you live and you learn. You realize, like, oh, okay, if I want this, I have to make sure it's in verbiage in the beginning.

B (30:32)

Correct.

A (30:32)

You're right about crediting versus paying full price. What's interesting to me though is that, like a photographer and a stylist require you in their contract to credit them, but we're paying full price. So I do. And like, I'm not saying I have even ever asked for a discount. I haven't. That's not something that's even like really entered my brain. But if I think about it, I do wonder, taking credit in general for someone else's work, it would be a red flag to me that the client would not want to sign something that says they can't do that.

B (31:07)

I mean, I think you're right. There's a lot of gray area here. Similarly, I think there's a lot of gray area with photography. Like, I'm sort of like, well, we bought the rights. Like, I paid for the thing, you know? So, like, that's confusing too. Like, I'm like, what do you mean?

A (31:21)

I paid for the whole thing? And now you get to make money on it. It's very. It's very confusing.

B (31:25)

It's really confusing. And I think similar. Like, I guess my general feeling and I could totally, totally be convinced otherwise, is like, if you're getting paid full price and you don't have something in your contract that says you must credit me in any publication, in any whatever, or any social situation, like social media shit, then I don't think you have to. I do think it's an interesting concept and I don't even actually know what our contract says. If we have to be credited in those ways, it's maybe something we should look at. I'm looking at Rachel thinking, maybe we.

A (31:55)

Should look at that let's add it to the list. I literally just had the conversation with my staff about this, and actually my mom, who's my attorney, I was like, we gotta add that in the contract.

B (32:04)

Yeah, I mean, it's a very gray space.

A (32:07)

It's like, yes, absolutely.

B (32:08)

And similarly to, as we said, photographers and stylists and things like. I mean, I don't know. I don't know the answers other than get it in writing, I guess, if that's something you want.

A (32:19)

Yeah. I think the contract ahead of time, talking about it and working it out, and then hopefully there's no fallout because you've covered it all in the beginning.

B (32:29)

Correct.

A (32:31)

So we need to give some penance. I feel like mine would be meet with an attorney, come up with a marketing plan, like, make sure that if this is something that you feel strongly about, it's been implemented. I also think something that I've had to learn, especially with exceptionally busy clients, is just trying to deadline them as nicely as you can. So that way, at least it's in writing, that if you don't get back to me by 25th September, it will not be here on. On the X date, that it says that the contractor needs it or whatever it is. Cause I feel like if that's in writing and you can be like, remember, you know, I mentioned that it might not make it if we didn't have approval. Typically they'll back off if. If that. Cause they'll be like, oh, shit, I did see that email. And I was like, that's helped me a lot.

B (33:18)

We also have a standing weekly email that goes out and a standing weekly phone call. And I also think that's important because if it's weekly, if someone doesn't need it, they might say, hey, listen, I'm busy this week. Is there anything important we talk about? No, but, like, even if they miss it one week, they probably won't miss it the next week. And so even having those sort of guardrails and you have this cadence and everyone knows the cadence and this is what it is, that that helps with some of these problems. And we've just been doing it so long that we've had every problem. I've even had this marketing one you're talking about. Do you know I have too? So I think to some degree, when you're young in this industry and also forever, because we're just humans on this planet trying to figure out this fucking situation, you know, this is just part of it. And sometimes you just have to live and those life Experiences like help shape a new rule or a new thought, you know?

A (34:09)

And I think someone could have told me, you need to make sure you do X, Y, Z in your contract, and it still wouldn't have, like, fully sunk in until you're in the situation and you're like, oh, okay, well, I'll make sure that doesn't happen again. And that's all we can do.

B (34:22)

And sometimes you're too afraid to speak too loudly because you don't want to lose an experience as opportunity. And so you keep it really simple just to, like, get there and you.

A (34:33)

All push it through.

B (34:34)

It will all work out.

A (34:35)

Yep. Which I think, when you're young, is something that, like, is okay to take a chance on. I certainly did where, like, I really wanted projects. Now I'm willing to be like, okay, if you're sticking your nose up at X, Y, Z, it's probably not gonna lead to great things down the line. And that's a red flag for me. So in some ways, it's also helpful, I think, to just, like, know who you're dealing with. Confession number two. Oh, my gosh. I have to share this story because it was so crazy to me, and I'm curious if other designers are running into the same thing. I had a client meeting recently with an older woman. She pulled out her iPad and started showing me her inspiration images. At first glance, they were stunning, but when I looked closer, they were slightly off looking. And then I started to notice details, like a grand staircase that literally dead ends into a wall, a portrait pool right in the middle of what was supposed to be a living room, chairs with five legs, and then more subtle weirdness, like proportions that were just slightly off, and everything looked a little too glossy. Yep, these were AI generated images. I didn't want to embarrass her, but I eventually had to say, okay, I love the direction you're leaning toward, but these images are actually AI Generated, which means they aren't totally realistic. She was completely shocked. No, really. And then I had to start pointing things out. See here? The staircase leads straight into a wall. The chandelier, it's somehow floating. You notice that. It's so obvious, but at first glance, it can trick you. Even after explaining this, she's still kind of pushed back, like, well, can we do something similar? I'm sitting here thinking, how exactly am I supposed to create something similar to a photo of a pool in the middle of your living room? We're officially in a new era of Pinterest problems. Except this time, it's not just unrealistic, it's literally impossible. Now we have to spend half the meeting convincing clients that physics still applies. And that's the frustrating part. As designers, we already have to manage Pinterest boards and HGTV expectations, and now we're back battling literal science fiction. People see these AI generated spaces online and think they can be replicated, when in reality, they're breaking every rule of physics, construction, and budget. By the end of the meeting, she relented and said, fine, but I still want it to feel like this. All I could think was, feel like, how is this the standard?

B (36:51)

Now?

A (36:52)

The way that AI is trickling into the interior design space is truly testing me. And if I see one more inspiration image with five legged furniture, I swear I'm gonna lose it. Truly.

B (37:03)

That's so ridiculous.

A (37:04)

I've had this happen. I've had this happen where I was brought a staircase that the client had seen and we were hired on after the architect. And so I don't know why the architects didn't say, oh, no, so sorry, this isn't gonna work. But, I mean, we ended up figuring it out. But like, the engineering that was required and the adjustments that were required, I mean, the amount of money, time, it was absolutely wor. It was a long process. And I think that that can't happen on every single thing that's happening in a project. Have you had this come up?

B (37:40)

I don't know if we've had this exact experience happen. I mean, my mom, like, sends me stuff that I'm like, mom, this is AI, like, of dogs, the bunnies on the trampoline. You're like, okay, totally. I'm like, mom, come on, you're cooler than this. But first of all, I would say that we shouldn't be looking at any work as literal, because the idea, and I tell this to my employees all the time, and I've talked about it, I think on like, another podcast or two, is like, we should only be sampling work. We shouldn't be recreating work ever. So in my opinion, everything's a bit of a squint test anyway. So if you pass me imagery, I'm squinting through the whole thing because I'm trying to understand what is being shaped here and what you're actually asking for. There's no world where you give me a living room that is or is not AI and I give it back to you. So it's just sort of like, oh, okay, so you like a plaster staircase. Now maybe you're not thinking about the fact that, like, your staircase is in a smaller space. Like, so, like, it can't look exactly like this. But we can give you something that has a similar feeling and is the version that would work in your space or that isn't going to work in your space. And here's why. So. So I don't know. I don't know that we have to be hyper concerned about this. I mean, I think I'd be more concerned about being a derivative designer and being excited when you get a literal picture that you can replicate. I have seen that. I have seen people fully replicate people's work.

A (39:11)

Absolutely. I mean, we all have. And it's infuriating, number one. Especially when you're the designer that spent all the time to come up with it in your brain and then. But I think you're right. I also, something that I've learned in this process personally, is clients will say, can I send you imagery, blah, blah, blah, like after this, but before I've given them imagery. And I always say, like, I wanna see what you have, but I want you to see what I have first, because I want you to know where I would go with this if I was. And of course, they give me general wishes when we do our scope walkthrough and stuff, but I don't need to see other people's images because that's not. What are you paying me for. Like, I think if someone does bring you images, just finding images that, to your point, have the same idea, the same feeling, the same concept, but are a different way to do it, that then can say, like, okay, here are a couple examples of this idea. Why don't we decide what we like out of all these examples and we can create an amalgamation of this into your home that makes sense in the context.

B (40:13)

Exactly.

A (40:13)

Like, I think that is what can. So that way you're not having to say, well, this image is incorrect, or it's AI and it can't be done even if that's true. So I think showing a real world example, comparing them and then going from there might be helpful with that.

B (40:30)

Yes. And we're pretty deep in AI here and we use AI like photorealistic renderings have forever have for like 10 years.

A (40:40)

Wow, that's incredible.

B (40:42)

A lot of people don't because they're too literal. They feel like. But I always say the same thing. Yes, they can be problematic in that way, but I say the same thing. My clients, I'm like, listen, listen, everything's a squint test. This is, this is not. Obviously this Is not the right green. This is right. This chip is the right green. It can be confusing in their brains. It doesn't always work out. But I try to say to people, like, we're just trying to get an overall feeling of the space, and if you like it. Because so many people can't envision things. And it helps us internally, too, because we can. And so we can go, oh, you know what? Let's put an arch here or. I didn't realize that soffit ends there, you know? Mm.

A (41:22)

We do the same exact thing, and we do it in house, which it sounds like you guys are doing as well. And my team and I will sit there and be like, oh, okay, so, yeah, this connects. Weird. We didn't realize that that was gonna look like that. How do we add an architectural detail? How do. Oh, we can replicate that. Oh, my God. What if we did high gloss in the inside of that? Because you're sort of designing as you're creating the space. It's one of my favorite ways to design. To your point, it can be problematic, but the clients that are coming to us to for our aesthetic often see the renderings, and they're like, yep, yep, good, sold. And there's nothing else. So it actually saves so much time and money on, like, the back end of the hemming and hawing and the five different decisions and blah, blah, blah. Cause they've already seen two or three floor types in the rendering, made their decision, and were able to move forward.

B (42:12)

Right.

A (42:12)

We're about to finish a med spa that we did that with. And so that has been insanely helpful with three owners to be like, let's refer back to the renderings that everybody liked. Remember how it was? Okay, great. We feel good about this moving forward. For me, it's been more positive than it has been. Negative, for sure.

B (42:32)

I would agree with that. For us, it has been more positive than it has been negative. For years, we outsourced them, but recently we've taken them mostly in house.

A (42:41)

I love it. I love being able to see what is in my brain come to fruition. There's in the discussion of AI, There are certainly ways that AI can help in our industry, but I don't think our jobs, people who are good at this, I don't think our jobs are in jeopardy. Like, there is no computer that can do what we do, and even if it can create the image, they can't implement. And that's something that we'll always obviously have the upper hand. So I don't think it's something that is, like, breathing down our necks. Personally. Yeah.

B (43:14)

So I think creative thought and creative expression, meaning, like, ahead of the horizon or the ability to think of what exists, it will remain. I. I've been writing substacks, and I've been writing them alongside Chat GPT and I said to my husband the other day, and alongside my marketing team, obviously they have the final edit, but, you know, me and Chat hang out in bed and write. And I looked at my husband the other night and I was like, you know what? ChatGPT is so fucking derivative. Like, it's so fluffy, I have to feed it. If I weren't feeding it original thought, it would be the most fluffy content. Like, it would offer nothing. It would sound really pretty, but would offer nothing. Now, all that to say, it saves me tons of time because I can feed it original thought, edit it with original thought, arrange it, you know, and bang through a lot more content. Because the truth is, I am not a writer. I am a designer. And the people I have on staff who do write copy are burned. I mean, they have so much to do.

A (44:24)

Yeah, there's way too much going on.

B (44:26)

Yes. But, like, they do. Like, Rachel on my team, who's an amazing writer, will take it and she'll go, okay, Great, you're about 85% there. And, you know, she'll edit it like an editor would.

A (44:35)

Absolutely.

B (44:36)

But I do find it helpful in that way from a design perspective. Like, I just think we're really afraid of progress. And for the people who aren't afraid of progress, I think they will win in the end.

A (44:49)

I think so, too. I mean, we do the same thing for our confessions. We have people write in, but they're not anonymized. So we give Chat the initial story that we've been given and we say anonymize this in a way that no one could ever know the details. And that's truly just to protect the people who are are trusting us with their information. But I will see. Well, first of all, I personally love an EM dash. Always have when I'm writing, like, on my own. Me too. Like, I love an EM dash. And now that chat is so into EM dashes, I feel like people think my emails are written by ChatGPT, but really, I just love an EM dash.

B (45:27)

Yeah.

A (45:28)

But I do think there are some things that ChatGPT says. Like, here's the kicker, they love that phrase. Like, there's some things that you're like, okay, this is very clearly not something I would say. Let's Figure out a way to make it more. But you're right. I mean, it would be shortsighted to not use that tool to crank out more. No. And I'm not pretending to be. And maybe one day I can hire a writer who can do it. But at the moment that's not the reality of the situation.

B (45:56)

But when I used to write without Chat because he didn't exist, I still had an editor who made me sound like a writer.

A (46:05)

Of course. Yes.

B (46:06)

You know, like, I would turn in copy, which was probably shit and then, but it had good ideas and were grammatically inaccurate and terrible and all the things. And then they would create something wonderful out of it and I would take full credit for it. Do you know, I mean, it was absolutely as it was a machine or a person.

A (46:25)

No, it's the same thing. And now it's just the credit doesn't need to be given. Cause it's a machine and not a person. I mean, I think there are certainly ways. I mean, I worked for Kelly Wearsler, my very first job ever. And she is one of those people who just will see something on the horizon and immediately figure out a way to make it work within her business. I've never seen her scared of that, like, level of Progress. Progress, yes. Thank you. But I do think it's something that making sure there's still like heart and soul in the interiors, which can only come from original thought travel. You know, designers who are ultimately in the right profession and doing the, you know, know, doing beautiful work. I don't think that will ever stop.

B (47:06)

Yeah. And I think the way you've been trained also, like in my case where like I went to Parsons, I grew up in a mid century modern home that had so much emphasis on design and art. And I grew up around artists. And then I worked at Markhampton. Like, I'm not sure how chat would understand all of that.

A (47:20)

No. You know, there is no way. No.

B (47:23)

Right. That's very nuance y.

A (47:24)

You're absolutely right. And I mean that I think is often my favorite designers have a breadth of experience that makes them, you know, so much more interesting.

B (47:33)

And maybe we're naive and maybe they'll come for us, but for now I feel good about it. Same.

A (47:39)

Okay. So speaking of that, I think the penance is to get a little more into AI, like learn what you're afraid of. And I think you won't be so afraid of it. And the more you learn about it, the more you'll be able to push back on clients and be able to Explain how and why it may not work in their space and maybe say.

B (47:57)

Like, something like, well, thank you so much for these. We love to see sort of what gets you excited. And let's talk about why you like this imagery. Is it a feeling? Is it the color? And don't focus so much on the specifics of the imagery.

A (48:09)

Like, this won't work. Blah. Yeah. I think you're unimportantly right. Yep.

B (48:13)

Obviously, she's not trying to build a fucking staircase that goes into a wall. I mean, who cares? That feels irrelevant.

A (48:20)

It's the feeling. Yes, Absolutely. I think you're right. I think you're right. I think you're right. I have a couple questions for you, and then I'm gonna let you go because I know how busy you are. What is one big decision you agonized over that made a major difference in your business?

B (48:38)

A lot, actually. Like, rebranding recently was something we agonized over because we were sort of, like, fine with our branding but never excited by it.

A (48:46)

That's how I feel too.

B (48:48)

Yeah.

A (48:48)

And you feel like it was worth it to do the rebrand, and now you feel really excited about it.

B (48:52)

I do. I feel really excited. I feel more proud of what we're putting out into the world.

A (48:56)

And I think it's beautiful, by the way.

B (48:57)

Thank you. I think that makes a big difference.

A (49:00)

Major.

B (49:01)

We worked with a wonderful design firm out of London named Duncan FedEx. Amazing.

A (49:05)

Ooh, I'm gonna look them up.

B (49:07)

Yeah, they're amazing. And then generally, what is no longer scary, but was really scary at one time was scaling, was hiring.

A (49:15)

Yep.

B (49:16)

And I think for many designers, that's really, really, really scary.

A (49:19)

How do you know when to close your books or when to hire more? Your books are full. You're not taking clients at the moment. Or how do you know when to continue to scale and keep hiring? So you can take on X, Y, Z.

B (49:35)

As far as when to scale, we found the sweet spot to be somewhere between two and five projects, depending on how large the projects are.

A (49:42)

Okay.

B (49:42)

And they shouldn't feel underwater. I don't feel that people produce good work when they can't leave before 9pm they should be able to leave at 6 or a reasonable hour. They should be able to come in at 9:30, whatever. And they should feel like they can function and go to the gym and spend time with their families and.

A (49:58)

And live their lives outside of their job. I'm completely the same way. Yep.

B (50:04)

So that we're not stressing each. You know, so that sort of lets me know, okay, this team is tapped. This one has room. We start to hire when we see that there's things in the pipeline and we start to kind of understand that, like, we might get a lot of good work and we don't have the support to do it.

A (50:20)

Yep.

B (50:21)

And when we're looking to grow, so we see that we have a lot of people who are design assistants who really do need to be promoted. You have to also grow people's careers. So either.

A (50:30)

Yes, absolutely.

B (50:31)

Like, either they can't go anywhere, or you have to start to make space for them. And thankfully, I am excited by growth. And so for me, I don't really have a ceiling, a growth ceiling. I just want to make sure we grow thoughtfully and in a way that can still support my team and the clients and in a way that can still support the brand.

A (50:58)

Brilliant. I think that's a great answer and frankly, something I've been asking for a while. So, I mean, I haven't been able to find that sweet spot quite yet. I think we're sort of in the middle and it's like, to your point, do we. A junior designer needs to be promoted, so they need someone under them. Like, there's lots of that that can come in. And I don't think there's. At least. I'm always telling myself there's not a right or wrong answer. You make it right or wrong based on how you handle it. But I think that's something that there's a lot of discussion. I know when I'm with other designers of, like, do we hire? Because what happens if the work recedes and then you have too many people?

B (51:33)

Well, I think the question is, where are you going? So if you're. If you're looking like world domination and you're like, I just wanna do all of it. I just wanna grow, grow, grow, grow, grow, then certainly that's what you should be doing. If you're never wanna get bigger than six people or whatever your sweet spot is, then you just have to probably know that you can promote people, but at some point you can't, because that design.

A (51:59)

There's nowhere to go.

B (51:59)

Yeah, there's nowhere to go. And that people will have to leave. And maybe you're okay with that. Maybe that's completely fine with you. And there's a sustainable experience for that as well.

A (52:09)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I hear designers who will say, like, it's me and an assistant and that's how I want it. Like, I wanna be able to do everything. Like, I cannot Relate to that. But I'm so happy for you.

B (52:17)

Yeah. And I' that assistant doesn't stay forever because there's no growth and so there's.

A (52:21)

No, there's nowhere to go. Exactly.

B (52:23)

So they cycle it out and they're probably fine with that.

A (52:25)

Yeah, I'm not. I want my people to stay, so I. They need somewhere to go.

B (52:29)

Yeah, same.

A (52:30)

One thing that really stands out about your firm is the Give Back initiative. I'd love to hear more about that. How was, how were you inspired to do that and how does it work?

B (52:38)

I was inspired by my father, who was a periodontist. He's now retired. He had a Give Back program where he would, in lieu of charging for like a CAT scan or something, he would take a hundred dollars, give it to charity, and when they signed for surgery, he would match it or something like that. And I kept trying to figure out a way to do that in my own firm. And people were increasingly telling me that I should charge for my consults, like my, my inquiry consults, like potential client walkthroughs. For me personally. And this is a personal, personal opinion. I didn't really feel comfortable doing that. I understood the reasoning. It was to weed people out and make sure people were serious. And I agreed with that because I spent a lot of time and it felt very wasted where I would go to things that, you know. So this felt sort of like the perfect in between. Well, what if we charged for it, but a hundred percent of that went to donation? And then if they sign with us, I love that. Match it. And at the time, and it remains true, I was becoming increasingly nervous about our climate. And I sort of just felt like, well, there's so many wonderful organizations you can give to that are personal to me and would be great. However, without an Earth, it just felt like there's nothing.

A (53:52)

There's nothing. Yeah.

B (53:54)

So similar to in design. Let's start at the beginning. Right. And let's build that foundation so that we can support other organizations.

A (54:01)

Yeah.

B (54:01)

So we decided. We also thought it was a little less political. The political climate has changed now. Maybe it is political now, but at the time it felt unfortunately. Yeah, it felt apolitical, but we still do it. We do ocean cleanup, World Wildlife Fund.

A (54:14)

Oh, nice.

B (54:15)

Real food for kids.

A (54:17)

That's brilliant.

B (54:17)

And our hope is that they will discover we have them choose and typically these people are high net worth people that they might discover ocean cleanup and decide to take it on as a.

A (54:29)

Initiative and continue to fund them. That's brilliant. I'm the same way with initial consultations. My feeling has always been I don't want to charge because what if I don't want to take the project? Like, what if I decide they're not someone I want to work with and then I'm. I feel beholden. Even if I'm not. Even if, like, the contract says you're not, I feel beholden to that. However, a donation, that's so smart because I feel like that's a different feeling. Like you're making an agreement together, but it's not roping us in in any meaningful way.

B (55:00)

And it also weeds people out. We've definitely should do this.

A (55:04)

We've all said, I'm going to. If you're okay with it, I'm definitely going to copy you.

B (55:07)

My hope has always been that other designers would do it. It's such an easy way to give back.

A (55:11)

This is such a. An easy way. Absolutely.

B (55:14)

And also what it's done is there have been. People are like, well, can you wave? And I'm like, wait, what wave? The donation.

A (55:19)

You want to wave a donation like you're a. You're a bad person.

B (55:22)

You're a bad person. And so it does that. It also starts you off on the right foot where people are like, oh, you're a good person that you do this.

A (55:30)

Yes. And you're going to expect goodness from me.

B (55:33)

Yes.

A (55:33)

Because you're. It's like signaling. Like, we don't. We're not dealing with assholes.

B (55:37)

Yeah.

A (55:38)

It's truly like multi level brilliant.

B (55:41)

And then at the end of a project, we plant a whole bunch of trees, like thousands of trees.

A (55:46)

Oh, wow.

B (55:46)

And I think we have that ticker now on, on our website. Is that right, Rach? Okay, well, if it's not on, it will be on. We're gonna start off. Yeah. Because in our new rebrand, we talked a lot about how our give back is sort of too quiet. And we wanted to say, like, we have given away X amount of money and we have planted X amount of time.

A (56:07)

I also think it, to your point is so inspiring to other designers. What an easy thing to implement that other designers wouldn't have thought about. I think it could catch on like wildfire. And I mean, I also think there's, as everyone knows, we could really use a lot more diversity. Like in design, there's a lot of things that who knows what it could end up being depending on how many designers donate. That is really. Wow. I mean, if I wasn't impressed before, that is brilliant.

B (56:32)

Thank you.

A (56:34)

How do you balance Your partnerships and media opportunities with the time that you devote to your firm.

B (56:39)

I used to not make any space for it, but lately I spend typically, and this is about an I always work on the 8020 rule. So typically I spend Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays with my design teams and primarily designing for clients. And Mondays and Fridays in a marketing space.

A (56:59)

Yes. Yes, Great. That's basically what we do. I'm looking at Claire, who does marketing for me, and we're like, us too. But that's been really successful for us as well. I think siphoning off the days, at least for me and my adhd, makes it so much easier. Same because I'm not having to like the type of work, having to bounce back and forth.

B (57:16)

Exactly.

A (57:17)

And it can be as easy as that of just like, these are the days I work on X and these are the days I work on Y.

B (57:21)

But today I had a client meeting. That's very rare to have one on a Monday, but it happens. And I think you also have to be flexible. I mean, at the end of the day. Yeah. You know, like I said, if you. 80%, that works out great. It's not always gonna work out. I mean, if you wanted to talk to me and I said I can only do it on Wednesdays, you'd make Wednesdays work. Even if you usually do it on Mondays and Fridays, it's like you're not gonna say no. So. But, you know, I think that's important. There's a lot of designers I feel are so rigid and so boundaried that they lose tons of opportunities.

A (57:51)

Well, and when you're working with high net worth, it just is what it is. They. There has to be more flexibility.

B (57:57)

Right.

A (57:58)

In my experience, the jobs that I've won that maybe I shouldn't have, maybe a bigger designer should have won over me, was certainly because I was able to be more flexible in certain aspects than they were. What is something that made you feel recently? Our tagline is interiors that make you feel. So that's why I'm asking this. But it can be anything. It can be personal, it can be work. It can be anything. Anything.

B (58:24)

Well, I went to see the Lumineers, and I love live music.

A (58:28)

Oh, my God. I bet that was amazing. They're supposed to be so good live. Was it fun?

B (58:32)

They really are. And I thought it was. Yes, it was so much fun. And what I thought was great is it was at this huge stadium, like National Stadium. So it wasn't an intimate concert at all. And I typically like intimate concerts. Like, you know, we have ones called, like, 9:30 club anthem that are small, but this was big. What I thought was really cool is he got off stage and he walked all around and sang one song, like, to people. I could see a security team was getting annoyed and he was, like, brushing them off and wouldn't allow them to not let him walk around to connect to people more.

A (59:02)

Sure. Yeah.

B (59:02)

And I just thought that was so nice because it was like a very human experience. Like, that somebody who has become kind of like, up here. And I imagine when you're singing up there, you don't feel so connected to the audience.

A (59:18)

Yeah. You really feel disconnected from the people who are sort of. Sort of all staring at you.

B (59:22)

Yeah. And I just felt sort of hopeful that, like, see, no matter how big someone gets or, you know, they're all just humans looking to connect with people. And I hope that our space is too. When I design space, I don't just think about pretty. I really think about how will people connect to this space? How can they feel in this space? How can they get to know you and your space?

A (59:43)

That's what sets it apart. I think that's what makes it original and interesting and unique to your clothes clients.

B (59:48)

Yeah, I hope so.

A (59:50)

It does. Okay, where can we find you Socials website?

B (59:55)

We are on Instagram at Zoe Feldman Design. We are trying to be on TikTok. I don't think we have accomplished that yet. We were having a glitch. We are rebranded at Zoe Feldman Design. New website.

A (60:08)

Amazing. I'm so excited to go. Look at that.

B (60:11)

We work nationally but have offices in New York and dc.

A (60:15)

Amazing.

B (60:16)

And I think that's it.

A (60:18)

Well, anything else? We'll put in the show notes just in case we missed something. Zoe, thank you so much.

B (60:23)

Thank you so much.

A (60:24)

You're so generous to give your time to us and to talk to everybody who's listening. And I'll never be able to thank you enough. So. And to everybody else, until next week, peace be with you.

B (60:36)

Bye.