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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school, because, let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Confession. Today we're joined by Laura Lester, founder of Lester Fine Art, an advisory specializing in modern, post war and contemporary art. She has nearly 20 years of art world experience in both New York and Chicago and has advised everyone from private collectors to interior designers. She's curated exhibitions of major artists and serves on the women's board of the MC of Chicago. Laura, thank you so much for being here.
- [00:44]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [00:45]
A
We're so treats. So excited. Oh, my God. I have so much to talk to you about.
- [00:49]
B
Can't wait. Yay.
- [00:50]
A
Okay, before we jump all the way in, tell me how you got here.
- [00:54]
B
So I started in the art world after, directly after undergrad, I got a master's degree in modern and contemporary art from Christie's with the aim to go into the commercial art world versus academia. So I really wanted to work with artists, with collectors from the onset. My first job out of undergrad was working for Gagosian Gallery.
- [01:13]
A
Amazing.
- [01:14]
B
I started out as the receptionist answering the phone. We all have to start delivering mail. Yeah, it was a great way to sort of, you have a bird's eye view of how the gallery works, especially a gallery of that size. So it was this incredible kind of first opportunity in the art world. And sitting in front of the boss's office gave me the opportunity to get to know him and to prove myself a little bit. So from that job, I started working for Larry as an assistant for the owner, which was truly the most incredible education.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah, talk about a front row seat.
- [01:46]
B
Wow. It really was. And at the time, you know, the gallery was going through a period of rapid expansion. So we went from, you know, five or six spaces to 11 spaces while I was there. And, you know, I got to really be there with him while he was making those decisions. And also I got this incredible education on how to work with clients and collectors, what level of service is required and appreciated, and, you know, how much expertise to provide when, you know, closing a major deal. And it was just really wonderful to watch him work. We're clearly very different people and have very different ways of doing business, but, you know, you can't not learn from a boss like that. So from Gagosian, I went on back to Christie's where I had gotten my master's. One thing I was lacking in my Role there is access to objects and, you know, a rarefied gallery like Gagosian, unless you're the registrar, you're really not touching the paintings.
- [02:40]
A
Yep.
- [02:41]
B
And at Christie's, you have to touch the property. As a cataloger, where I started there, you're down in the warehouse with a black light, making condition reports, looking at the back of paintings for labels, putting together histories, provenance, you really get this object based education that you can't get anywhere else. And this sort of wild permission to actually work physically with these objects as you prepare property for sale.
- [03:04]
A
That's incredible.
- [03:05]
B
It's a requirement. So sort of. That was really the second part of where I feel like my expertise got rounded out in learning how the client service side of this business and also how to really read a painting and evaluate it. So after Christie's, I was a director of a Chelsea gallery of Kasman. And until the pandemic when we relocated back to Chicago and I started this business. It's been almost five years.
- [03:31]
A
Congratulations. Yeah, that's so exciting. I remember our first line when you first got here.
- [03:36]
B
Yes.
- [03:37]
A
Oh, my gosh. Which was brilliant, by the way. I mean, to start reaching out to designers right away and to get your name out there. It was really smart.
- [03:44]
B
Yeah. Oh, thank you. You know, working with designers is such an. A joy. And, you know, my sort of job takes me up against what designers are doing pretty consistently in that, you know, either I'm working with a collector who needs a designer. And that's always fun to kind of play matchmaker in that regard, especially now that I've gotten to know so many people in the design community. But it's also, you know, often I'm brought into a project when the client is working with a designer, and so the designer will. Will call and say, you know, we're doing the second home, we're doing this home. The client is a collector. I either need help kind of figuring out an installation plan for the collection, some logistics, moving pieces, and then generally, you know, that collector wants to level up a little bit. And they need sort of a level of help and expertise that I'm just not willing to provide at this time. They need a third party. So it's so fun to kind of come in on those relationships. You know, many of you in the design community have become such good friends. I love seeing what you do. It's so, you know, again, adjacent, but so different than what I do. And I love watching it. I'm such a fan and like watching the magic come together and then kind of figuring out that final layer and how everything works together is truly just a joy. So, you know, these designer friendships, partnerships, business relationships have become such a cornerstone of me running a business here in Chicago.
- [04:58]
A
Which do you find more difficult working with single collectors, homeowners, or designers?
- [05:04]
B
I mean, almost always I'm working with the homeowner.
- [05:08]
A
Okay. So it's just maybe through a designer, they might, like, connect you to the designer.
- [05:12]
B
Yes, the designer is usually the one connecting me. I have done a couple of projects where the designer really doesn't want to bring a third party into the equation, just sort of for the client's focus and preferences. So I'm kind of working with their team a little bit to help bring in some art options for key spaces. And that is obviously incredibly fun because we're just sort of two professionals throwing ideas around, and we can be really candid with one another, and those are, you know, really, really fun opportunities. But nine times out of 10, I come in to have a relationship with the end client.
- [05:44]
A
Well, I mean, art is so personal.
- [05:45]
B
So that would make sense. Exactly.
- [05:47]
A
I mean, I say that to clients all the. I am not an art curator. I can appreciate good art. I know artists that I like, but that's where it ends. That's the end of my expertise. So when someone like you, who truly knows the ins and the outs and can advise on not just what would look right in the space, but what's the right investment level, what artist is worth putting in your home for, like, the long run, all of those things are things I won't even pretend to know.
- [06:13]
B
No, those are fun kind of conversations to have alongside the designer. And generally, especially if it's a new home that's just coming together, either a new build or a home that's been gutted, and we're trying to kind of work art into the plan from the onset, which happens often when the client's a collector. It's really fun to kind of have that designer copied on emails or run things by them maybe first. And you can offer sort of a rare insight that maybe even the client won't see. Like, this isn't the appropriate place to install this. We need something that feels a little bit different. Like, you have a great sense of, like, how that sensibility is going to translate what it's going to be like to live in that room. And it's really, you know, invaluable insight. So I think most of the time, the designer really wants to be a part of the conversations I'm having.
- [06:57]
A
Definitely.
- [06:58]
B
Sometimes the project's really gotten to a point where they say, okay, you and the client just go and figure this out.
- [07:04]
A
The client is annoying. Can you please take it off my hands?
- [07:07]
B
But most of the time, they want to be, you know, at least sort of copied in those conversations and a part of it, to the extent that, you know, they. That insight is. Is needed.
- [07:18]
A
Well, and I mean, the right art piece, the right or wrong. I mean, it can make or break a space, and I feel like that is so key. Obviously, we. I'll speak for myself. When we're working on these homes for two and three years, it's like your child. So to have the art consultant, you know, make sure that it's not aligned with your vision per se, but more so like something that you feel. Because obviously, we. We think about these spaces in our heads for so long. So even when there isn't an art piece picked out, I generally have something in the back of my head.
- [07:47]
B
Yeah.
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A
So I feel like to be able to be like, the palette is xyz. The clients want to spend xyz. Work your magic. Like, that's the ideal scenario for a designer.
- [07:56]
B
I feel like. Yes. And I love to kind of come in with those puzzles and figure out how to make all of those priorities come together, and also for the client to feel connection with the artist with their work. And I think that's the hardest thing. And whereas your team is working on 50 small pieces to make a room come together, and I just have one piece. That piece is so emotional sometimes that it can take the same amount of time to get the client there. But it's really fun when they do make that connection. And then often the artwork we're buying isn't here physically in Chicago. We're sourcing things from where there's the highest concentration of galleries, for the most part, New York, Louisiana, Sometimes London. And the painting hasn't been physically seen by the client until it shows up in the house. And so that magic moment when the crate is open is just. I live for that. When the client is so excited to actually see this painting or this photograph or his sculpture after all of all of those renderings and photos and videos. And then when we actually get it up on the wall or get it on the pedestal, it's just. It truly is magical.
- [09:03]
A
I mean, it's the same as a room reveal. It makes it all worth it.
- [09:06]
B
Yes. It's the cherry on top. It really is so fun.
- [09:09]
A
It is incredible. I love it. As a designer, I'm sure most other designers Feel the same way. Sometimes your clients want you to be the one to do everything because they just feel overwhelmed or they don't want to bring in someone else. I'm in the business of hiring the right people and letting them do their job.
- [09:27]
B
Yeah.
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A
How do you recommend we talk to clients about bringing on an art consultant? Like, how do we go about that to make it sound the most economical and the best decision for the client and for the end result?
- [09:40]
B
Yeah, no, I think art and contemporary art and collecting contemporary art, it's a really complicated thing, especially if you want to do it right. And I've been doing this for almost 20 years. I spend all day looking at art and artists and staying on top of what's happening in the market. You know, I have a lot of sort of depth of art historical knowledge and continuously connect new contemporary artists. I find back to those. Those artists. I spent a great deal of my year traveling both back to New York, but also to art fairs globally. And there is just no possible way that somebody with expertise in another field could ever sort of capture that depth of knowledge. And I think you can spend a lot of money on, you know, an artwork that you find in a gallery in a town that you're visiting on vacation or, you know, that you sort of stumble in spur of the moment or find online and you inevitably haven't possibly done your research to see what else is out there. It's just impossible, really, for one person to do unless they're truly going to immerse themselves in it. And the value of an art advisor is that you are going to get myriad options tailored for you to your budget artists that you never would have known about otherwise. And that money that you're spending, which is not insignificant with any artwork at least. I always try to assure a client at a certain level that I want to make sure that artist has a market and they're going to be able to get their money back out of it.
- [11:10]
A
I feel like that key piece, that's the piece that I'm certainly not accomplishing.
- [11:16]
B
I think there's really young emerging artists that are at a certain level and, you know, they're just a few years out of art school and their work is incredible and you just, you love it and it does something for you and you're living with it and you buy it and that's that. But if you're making any sort of investment in an artist, it's. It's incredible when those markets, you know, explode or that artist's trajectory continues and you're able to make money on an artist, but that's never a reason to collect art and that's so far from a guarantee. But I at least, I at least want to make sure that, you know, I feel like that investment is justified for resale and that you could turn it around and resell it for what you paid for. And that's, I think having those, you know, factors really carefully considered and discussed and researched for you is, is of enormous value in itself.
- [12:03]
A
That's a great reason. I mean, that gives me reason enough, I feel like, to give our clients especially because everyone loves to make their money back.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So that's a big selling point.
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B
Yeah. I think you have, have, have good odds of it with a well researched purchase and practically no chance of it with a, with an impromptu purchase and I think being able to see and capture what's out there. Yeah, well, and I think, you know.
- [12:24]
A
Obviously art doesn't have to be for resale, but it's lovely if you love the piece just as much as you loved another $20,000 piece, but you do have some security in the fact that it's worth, it's going to hold its value versus just some random piece like you said, that you bought on vacation.
- [12:40]
B
Yes, that's always the goal, you know, for me to, when a, when a client considering an artwork for purchase to say, you know, hey, this artist has been in a group show at the New Museum. They're represented by this wonderful gallery in Tribeca that's done, you know, really great things for them. They've been in, you know, they've had a solo show. They have another solo show coming up in LA next year, like kind of talking about what that artist's trajectory and resume and credentials look like. Again, it doesn't determine an artist's merit. I think there can be an artist who's never been in an exhibition that's work is incredibly complex and rigorous and wonderful. But I think it, it helps us when we're talking about where that price point is and why that that price point is where it is. And, you know, what is sensible to, to pay for an investment.
- [13:24]
A
Yeah.
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B
That you're going to have in the center as a centerpiece of your home.
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A
Brilliant. I love it. And now I feel a lot more well versed into convincing my clients to hire an art consultant. That is what you, that's your title, Art consultant? Or is it deeper than that?
- [13:39]
B
So I, I call myself more of an, more of an art advisor.
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A
Okay.
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B
A consultant encompasses a lot of things and I'm I'm a bit of a purist in that, you know, I truly work for my clients only as a fiduciary for these clients. And, you know, I don't represent paintings, I don't represent artists. I certainly have friendships with artists and artists that I really believe in that I recommend and think are doing incredible work. But at the end of the day, I am working for my client and my client only representing their best interest.
- [14:09]
A
Well, an advisor does make sense for that. Okay, yes. Now I know.
- [14:12]
B
Yes. I'm not taking on, you know, curatorial projects necessarily. I don't do appraisals. I'm truly just, you know, advising my clients on what to buy, which, to.
- [14:20]
A
Your point, means that you can be really insular and know the ins and outs of all of that, because that's your main focus.
- [14:27]
B
Right? Yes, yes. The business is very streamlined. And, you know, when it comes to your comment about hiring the right people, I have a wonderful support team who does things for me that I couldn't do myself in terms of, you know, graphics and, you know, a wonderful lawyer and a wonderful accountant and all of the little aspects of kind of running a business that are just not my. I don't have depth of expertise. But in terms of the creative and, you know, truthfully, most of the admin, it's just me.
- [14:56]
A
Yeah.
- [14:57]
B
And, you know, I think you're really, really getting me fully my expertise, my opinions, and me going to bat for you and taking your project from start to finish 100% of the time. And that's who you're going to be interfacing with, is me. And I've really, you know, in design, it's pretty much impossible to do that because there's just too many moving parts.
- [15:17]
A
So many moving parts.
- [15:18]
B
But there's. There's much fewer for me. And, you know, there certainly are large advisories with. With many people working. And I never say never. I don't know what the future holds. But my goal as of now is to really remain boutique and have me and only me owning the creative.
- [15:35]
A
That's sort of where I'm sitting, too. I have an amazing sport team. I have fabulous junior designers, and they do obviously help a lot and come up with ideas, but I'm the one who's in every meeting. I'm the one who's still picking everything. And I do think that makes a difference with clients. Yes, it just does. They feel so much more secure that the person who they hired is the one who's working with them directly.
- [15:55]
B
Right, Correct. Exactly.
- [15:56]
A
And obviously everyone has a different trajectory. And I think you're right. You get to a point where you sit simply can't do that anymore. Yes, but making that decision to either stay boutique, you know, a lot of people I think are moving in that direction and it makes sense. We also need to be able to have like some level of work life balance. And if you take on, you know, as a consultant, I'm sure you have to take on so much more just because it's like there's, it's all over the place. It's not just like one big client base where you're working for them directly.
- [16:24]
B
There's so many active projects I can have at a time. I mean, basically the way I structure it is most of my clients don't ever really have an end date. I mean, collecting is a lifelong pursuit. So once somebody has sort of signed on with me, usually the, you know, impetus is a project. So like they bought a new house, they bought a second house, they've renovated their house, you know, they inherited a collection, a family collection, and they want to sort of sell things that don't speak to them, but then integrate some of these more historical objects in with, with artists of their time. So there's usually a sort of a reason that I'm approached initially, but I have several clients I've been working with for 10 plus years across, you know, multiple jobs. And you know, they're not necessarily active on a day to day basis, but they are passionate collectors. I know them really well. I know they may have like long term wish lists, sort of rare things we're looking for that I know they would buy if we found the right example or, you know, artists, they just really, really love that you don't see consistently. And if new work comes out, they're going to be interested in that. So I'll be at a fair at, you know, Miami Basel and walking around and I'll see something that's just perfect for this collector. And maybe I haven't talked to them in three months, but we're always kind of, I always have my eye out for them and I'll just text them and the relationship becomes obviously much more casual. It goes from formal presentations and meetings.
- [17:41]
A
To us texting, hey, do you like this?
- [17:43]
B
Yes. I'll say, hey, look what I found in Miami. This is perfect for you. And you know, sometimes I'll just get a text back, done.
- [17:49]
A
Is that just the best feeling when you've been looking for something for so long? You walk into a gallery, you see it and they're like, yep, do it. Yeah, that's gotta be the best feeling.
- [17:58]
B
It's awesome. I mean sometimes those visual discoveries happen at art fairs. I try to read all the previews but sometimes things come out that you don't see. But often, you know, galleries also are some of my most valuable connections and relationships. And having worked in galleries for so long, many of these directors sort of scattered all over the place are my ex colleagues and we've, you know, been in this together forever. And they know my clients, they know what I'm looking for. And I'll get emails, texts from them too, saying look, we'll just got him in on consignment. Is your client XYZ still looking for this? This is going to go fast. You're looking at it first. So it is really fun.
- [18:30]
A
I mean those relationships are so crucial clearly to be able to be one of the first people to see a piece before it can get snapped up. To know when things are coming in. That's right.
- [18:39]
B
And that's another sort of value add too. I mean I'm absolutely. If a collector is treating the collection well, not flipping, you know, using sort of living with things in an integritous way, which, you know, working with majority Midwest collectors generally, I have that on my side. Galleries really want to place things with my clients because they tend to have really, you know, wonderful tactful reasons for buying them and treat the art and the artists really well. But yeah, I think being able to have access to something and a lot of this access is just about trust too. The gallery knowing that they're putting this work in a place where it's going to be, be treasured and they're not going to see it showing up at an auction house next season for double the money.
- [19:20]
A
So. Interesting. I hadn't thought about that piece of the like resale market and essentially flipping art which until you're like duh.
- [19:28]
B
But that's, it's very, very, it's a very hated practice. And I think you know, seeing having access to something with a long waiting list, that's really, really special. The gallery can sometimes sell a body of work by a sought after artist, you know, 30 times over. But getting that call saying hey, does your client want this? You're going to get offered it first. That's not only, you know, value that I can bring to the table, but also value that I, I bring to the galleries and the clients that I'm choosing to work with. And that's another nice thing about having my business Is, you know, I vet the clients as well, and I make sure that this client is collecting for the right reasons and that it's a mutual respect between gallery and clients and making that match and the artist. So it's really fun when that all works out well.
- [20:12]
A
And it's so niche, but so needed. Like, there is clear. I mean, it's niche to the rest of the world.
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B
Right.
- [20:19]
A
I'm certain it's not niche to you or to me, but it's something that is. Like, I could never handle that level of detail of advising someone for art. Like, I can be like, here's an artist I like. We've done commissions, obviously.
- [20:31]
B
Yeah.
- [20:32]
A
That's often more working off of, like, tones in the space or, like, client sort of lead piece, But I still do that too, which is so fun. To be able to make something out of nothing is always fun. A little scary when your client might.
- [20:44]
B
Not like it, but it's a leap of faith for sure.
- [20:47]
A
Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Okay, Well, I could talk about this all day, but I want to get to some confession.
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B
Let's do it.
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A
Before we do that, what's your advice?
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B
Okay. I have a lot of them. I feel like probably my husband would definitely say, trying to squeeze too much out of every day. I try to. I don't like to have an unproductive 15 minutes. Let him have an unproductive hour. I need to learn to chill and relax. But now that we're getting into fall temps. Probably fall coats. Buying fall coats. I need to stop. But they're so cute.
- [21:23]
A
It's so fun in Chicago, too, because you can wear them.
- [21:26]
B
I know.
- [21:26]
A
And it's, like, part of the outfit. Or is the outfit when it gets cold enough because you can't take it off.
- [21:31]
B
Summer is not my fashion season.
- [21:32]
A
Me neither.
- [21:33]
B
I feel like it's just very. It's hard. There's no layering possibilities. No.
- [21:37]
A
I also would so much rather be cold than hot, personally.
- [21:40]
B
Me, too.
- [21:40]
A
Yeah, same.
- [21:41]
B
Maybe not like January cold, but, like, October, November cold. I'm here for it.
- [21:45]
A
Fall is everything to me in Chicago. So beautiful.
- [21:47]
B
So beautiful. So beautiful.
- [21:54]
A
Okay, well, I'm really excited. I read these confessions already, and they. Okay. All right. Confession number one. I used to think interior design was about creating beautiful spaces that people actually lived in. Rooms that held memories, habits, stories, you know, life. But somewhere along the way, the spaces stopped having people, and I stopped asking why. The client came through a referral, said he was relocating from Monaco and needed help designing three properties in New York. Soho Tribeca and Hudson yards. No details, just budget is open, timeline is tight. Everything must be collectible. That was the word he kept repeating. Collectible. Not functional, not livable. Just collectible. Which is an interesting phrase that I have not heard when being hired by a client. At first I thought, okay, this is just another high net worth guy with more taste than time. Happens all the time. But something about this one was different. He never walked any of the properties, never gave feedback beyond vague approval. And the money, the money came fast. Wire transfers that cleared in hours. My design fee was doubled without even being asked. And I'm just gonna be so for real. That is the dream client. If that starts happening where they're just like, yeah, sounds good. Yeah, sounds good.
- [23:05]
B
I know the money.
- [23:06]
A
You're gonna be like, scary, though.
- [23:08]
B
I feel like I'm already suspicious what's happening. Yeah.
- [23:10]
A
But I will say I've been hired by clients where, like, they're. They hire you, they like your work, they want it done quickly. So they're just like, yep, looks good, here's money. Yep, looks good, here's money. It's very rare, but when you do get one of those, you're like, oh, well, maybe they just understand the process.
- [23:25]
B
Yep, I'm just gonna ride the. So I can see how it could.
- [23:27]
A
Be a little bit like, maybe they're just a dream client.
- [23:30]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [23:31]
A
Okay. So I went to work. The instructions were to source everything through verified channels. No off the shelf furniture, no local artisans. He wanted assets, not decor. The furniture had to come from galleries, auctions, obscure collectors. A daybed made in Milan in 1941. A Japanese shelving unit that only exists in photos from an old Biennial catalog. A coffee table supposedly designed by an architect who died mid build. Every item had a backstory and a price T that made me sweat when I submitted invoices. This is so interesting. The rooms came together beautifully, but they felt wrong. Cold, Too perfect. No dishes in the kitchen, no towels in the bathroom. Closets were empty. No one was planning to live there. The apartments were like showrooms for ghosts. Fully furnished, completely soulless, and somehow worth millions more by the time I finished. Every time I wrapped a project, I'd hear later that the apartment had been sold. Fully furnished, cash deal, usually through an LLC with a name like Thorne and Wexley Holdings. The same pieces would appear again in another job, reinventoried, renamed rehung. I started to realize I wasn't just designing interiors. I was helping build portfolios. Portable stage tax, optimized wealth.
- [24:47]
B
Wow.
- [24:49]
A
Crazy. Eventually, the Client, let's call him Mr. King started making stranger requests. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Not design related paperwork. He'd asked me to adjust the invoice descriptions. Could I separate line items by acquisition channel? Instead of room, could I relabel a $22,000 chandelier as a lighting consultancy package? It was always presented with a rationale. For insurance purposes, for appraisals, for internal documentation. I knew what I was doing. I just didn't know what I was a part of. Things escalated with a job in Paris. I was flown in to stage a five story townhouse for an investment presentation. The place was empty except for five enormous canvases hanging in the main rooms. Huge, abstract, intentionally soulless. Each one had a barcode on the back and a laminated tag that said do not remove. I wasn't allowed to touch them. My job was to design around them. Later I found out those weren't just paintings. They were part of a fractionalized art holding based in the Cayman Islands. The house wasn't a. It was an asset vault. The art wasn't decor, it was collateral. And me, I was the one making it all look believable. I stopped after that, or at least tried to. I still get messages now and then. Discreet requests, big budgets, phrases like collectible interior partnerships. It's always the same. No questions, immediate payment, untraceable money. I think there's an entire underground industry using interior design as a vehicle for financial laundering. Wow. Rich people buying properties they'll never visit, Filling them with curated items that exist purely to store value, then flipping the whole thing like it's a living, breathing hedge fund. A mirror with provenance, A rug with legal weight. A bookshelf that doubles as a bank account. The worst part is I got really good at it.
- [26:35]
B
That is crazy. I feel like that I'm like. I'm like sweating with nervousness. For her or him? Oh my gosh. For them.
- [26:43]
A
Okay, there's. There's a lot to unpack. So much to unpack here. First of all, have you ever a client who is more concerned about the value than the actual pieces?
- [26:54]
B
Oh, for sure. I think it's. It's. This is a huge, huge piece. Part of the art world. And you know, I think it's. Their free ports exist for this reason. Sure. You know, actually I think there's. Especially when I was working in, in New York and more of sort of the seven figure art world, which, you know, again, I feel like I'm collecting is. And I. I work with some, you know, incredible collectors here. But I think there's like a. It's. There's a different sort of stratosphere in people who are regularly buying like seven figure plus paintings.
- [27:24]
A
That's a different world.
- [27:25]
B
Often they're not being purchased to like, we don't. Aren't even measuring walls. Like they're just going straight to Delaware to hang out in the Freeport until it's an opportune time to sell them. And I think there was a little bit of sort of soullessness in that. It's certainly legal and fine to do that, but I think, you know, there's. I love art and I started to sort of became interested in working in this business because I truly think that art can put, you know, something out there that. In a universal way, in a universal language that can't be said with words. And I think it almost like, you know, not to get too profound here on this fun podcast, but it almost gets. Gives life a little bit of meaning in a way that you can't really find that anywhere else. And I think I had some experiences with art as a student that really sort of. I thought, oh my God, you know, this is why we're alive, is to convey these feelings to one another in a way, and this is how you do it. So I became a dealer not to flip paintings and put them in Freeports, but to connect artists with collectors and to have people living with these things. And I think one nice thing about owning my business is that, you know, I can work with clients that I choose that, you know, are collecting for the right reasons. And, you know, I think there's most reasons are right, but there's some that just really ring, you know, rings ring badly to me. And this is, this is like, kind of reminds me of those, you know, types of scenarios which people have every right to participate in. But.
- [29:05]
A
But also how sad for the artist.
- [29:07]
B
It's incredibly sad for the artist that.
- [29:09]
A
You could have spent a year, six months, three years. I mean, some artists spend an insane amount of time on one piece. Right. And then it goes and is in storage. That's gotta be.
- [29:21]
B
I would say that probably the greatest unseen art museum in the world is the Freeport in Geneva. Wow. I can't. I'd love to know how many Picassos are in there.
- [29:29]
A
And the fact that that is. I mean, you're right, it's legal, it's allowed.
- [29:32]
B
Like, I don't know about this situation. I mean, it seems this one seems a little murk. Yeah, yeah. But I. And I think also, you know, for me as well. What makes me nervous about that is one of the big things that's, that's been interesting for me about starting a company. And again, I'm kind of a reluctant business owner. I never really, you know, we were talking about how we're both a little afraid of Instagram, but we have to make it happen. I never rolled up my sleeves and thought, you know, I really want to be, you know, the face of a business and an entrepreneur. I thought, you know, I love doing what I do and the only way to do it my way is to.
- [30:03]
A
Is to have it myself. Yep, same.
- [30:05]
B
But all of these sort of little nuanced parts of it, of the actual running of the business are, they're necessary evils and these are the things I outsource. But one thing that when I started an llc, now an S corp, and I'm the face of it and the single owner is I'm really afraid of getting in trouble. I'm a big rule follower. I always do things like 10,000% the way they're supposed to be done. And I'm always double triple checking things. If I'm on somebody else's contract, I'm insisting that my lawyer review it and, you know, reading the fine prints.
- [30:39]
A
But it's one time, I know, and.
- [30:41]
B
I'm always like, oh, I just want to do everything perfectly right for everybody. Not only for my client, but for the artist, for the gallery, for the designer, for everyone. Like, I just want everyone to be getting the, you know, the most fair, happy possible outcome. And, you know, especially at the end of the day, me, whose name is on everything. So anything that's remotely murky, like, I will turn down money all day long. If I'm female, a little bit nervous, I'm going, you know what, it's fine. There's enough. There's plenty of fish in the sea. I'll work with somebody else.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great way to be. I think it will end up saving you in the long run. And I've certainly been like, maybe I'm being dramatic, but I'd rather be dramatic.
- [31:17]
B
Same, not regret it.
- [31:18]
A
Like, I'd rather be dramatic and not go to jail.
- [31:20]
B
So I'm gonna stick with my yes, I'm just gonna work with these nice collectors over here. We're all good, very straightforward. And I think that's. It's also just, you know, not to get too sort of nuts and bolts, but it's like in the way that I've set up my business too. I mean, One, I obviously will do things differently on a case by case, you know, scenario. But one, one thing that's really important to me and I took this away from being a gallerist working with advisors is as a gallerist, I really, really appreciated knowing who I was selling to. And I always have the gallery invoice my client directly and my client pay the gallery so that they can have a record of who purchased that artwork. Not only just so they have sort of peace of mind knowing that this is a true private individual. Exactly who I presented to you. Here's their name. You know, I'm trusting you not to go around me and approach this client. That's really main reason advisors have themselves as a pass through. But I'm trusting you to sort of know exactly who my client is and, and have that invoice. But also, you know, in 20 years, if there's a retrospective at MoMA, I hope and you want to go find this painting and borrow it for loan, you know exactly who you sold it to. You don't have to go try to find me and find that end user. So I think like that, you know, transparency, not just in that practice, but in all aspects of my, of my business are just so deeply important to me. And I will truly leave money on the table all day long.
- [32:37]
A
Well, and also you're able to sleep at night better.
- [32:39]
B
I'm sure I am. I am. I need my sleep. Yeah.
- [32:42]
A
Well, I mean, before I hired an interior design accountant, I literally had nightmares all the time of literally going to jail for tax fraud.
- [32:48]
B
And like it was a total accident accidentally.
- [32:50]
A
I just don't know how to do it.
- [32:51]
B
I think being wrongfully accused of a crime is one of my biggest fears. Oh, me too. 100%. I wasn't even there.
- [32:56]
A
I didn't do it, I promise.
- [32:58]
B
Yes, I wouldn't. It's the sad thing is like, it's the people who would really never that have the most fear about it 1000%.
- [33:05]
A
My mom's a judge and her biggest fear is going to jail.
- [33:07]
B
Oh my God. It's like, I think you're going to be okay.
- [33:10]
A
Yeah.
- [33:10]
B
Of all people, it's not going to be us. I think Bubble we still have stress nightmares about.
- [33:14]
A
It's probably the reason why it won't be us. So.
- [33:16]
B
Exactly, exactly that situation. So much fear.
- [33:21]
A
Okay, so we need to give some penance to this designer.
- [33:25]
B
Okay.
- [33:25]
A
Which it doesn't have to be, you know, so serious. I would say my penance is probably to block this person's number 100. All of their work associates, like, just truly cut ties.
- [33:41]
B
You have to. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
- [33:43]
A
And, like, never take their calls again and hope that you got away with it the one or however many times you did it and just, like, take a U turn. I think it's probably recommended for sure. You know, obviously, we all. We do what we have to do, and we all have different boundaries and different lines. And I will say from experience, it is easier than you would think to get sucked into something like this, because a client can approach you one way, and then they end up being a lot different, but you're halfway in. Maybe they owe you money. Maybe you turn down other jobs for this. I can see how you just think.
- [34:22]
B
Oh, I'm just gonna finish this project.
- [34:23]
A
I just have to get it done. I just have to get it done. And then it ends up being something that you were not bargaining for. But also.
- [34:31]
B
And as an interior designer, you really don't think of yourself as somebody who would be a victim of do that. You're like, how is that firm gonna get embroiled in this?
- [34:38]
A
Like, how is that even invincible? Exactly. And I think that's the piece that, like, sometimes is being taken advantage of where, like, we're just selling them things that they're asking to buy. How. How do you get in trouble?
- [34:50]
B
Exactly.
- [34:50]
A
I think the piece that comes in that's difficult is the changing of the invoices.
- [34:54]
B
That's when.
- [34:55]
A
But I mean, we have clients who will be like, can you, like, do this for this for tax purposes? And I'm always a little bit like, let me talk to my accountant and make sure that's okay.
- [35:05]
B
I get those questions sometimes, too. It's funny with, you know, I'm sure South Dakota versus Wayfair there was, like, the art world was absolutely rocked with that ruling. I don't know if that affected you guys as much.
- [35:15]
A
No, not. Can you explain it quick?
- [35:17]
B
Yes.
- [35:18]
A
So sorry not to rush.
- [35:19]
B
You know, I think it is just established. So, like, if you were shipping something out of state. I'm hoping I'm explaining this right, but it's like, if you didn't have a physical presence in that state and you were shipping something to that state, you didn't have to pay sales tax.
- [35:32]
A
Oh, yes.
- [35:32]
B
Yes. And I think technically the client was liable for reporting it, but everyone always looked the other way. I didn't really. You know, I think. I don't know what they did on their end, but the gallery wasn't charging it. And now there's sort of a threshold for establishing nexus, like a presence in that state.
- [35:46]
A
Yes, yes.
- [35:48]
B
So, you know, a lot of galleries, they just have one location in New York, so they're shipping. They would send it to their clients country home in Connecticut, and then they would. Would drive it back into the city and hang it up in their apartment, and they got it on the New York City, New York State sales tax. And that's just not possible anymore. I think, like, the threshold is for some states, it's $100,000. So if you're a small gallery selling like 10, $12,000 things, like, you're gonna be able to not charge sales tax up to a point, but then it kicks in and it's much lower in some states. So it's again, state by state, and you really have to stay on top of that.
- [36:16]
A
Yes. Now that you say this, yes, it has affected us. And really what happens is our accountant will just be like, you're taking on a job in X state. You need to make X amount of money to be able to make it make sense to work in that state.
- [36:29]
B
Right.
- [36:29]
A
And then we. But that makes sense, though, because if you're selling a $500,000 piece of art, to your point, in Connecticut, I think the.
- [36:38]
B
Is.
- [36:38]
A
The New York City threshold, I think is like 500,000. Theirs is the biggest threshold. And then there's like Florida's 100, South Carolina is 100, Florida's 100.
- [36:45]
B
I know that for sure. Generally in my business, the gallery's doing the invoice, so.
- [36:49]
A
Sure.
- [36:50]
B
That's another thing that helps me is like they're really on top of sort of what their threshold is. And like, they're. I don't do. I don't have a resale certificate. You know, you're paying the tax.
- [36:57]
A
Yeah.
- [36:57]
B
And you know, those, those questions, I get them infrequently, but that's sort of the only thing I do get sometimes. And you know, I just completely. Even if I do know the answer and I won't opine on it, you need to talk to your.
- [37:09]
A
Talk to your accountant, talk to your attorney. Don't talk to me.
- [37:12]
B
No, no.
- [37:12]
A
I don't know the answer.
- [37:14]
B
Even if I think I do. I'm not saying. Yeah, you going to have to figure that out.
- [37:18]
A
That's smart. I think that's the best way. Best way. Okay, let's get into confession number two.
- [37:29]
B
All right.
- [37:31]
A
I. This one is going to be up your alley.
- [37:33]
B
Okay. All right, I'm ready.
- [37:35]
A
I've commissioned a lot of Artwork over the years. It comes with the territory. Clients want something unique, statement making. Preferably something that whispers, I have taste without screaming, I have no idea what I'm looking at. But this one. This one screamed. I was working on a penthouse in la. The kind with floor to ceiling everything. And a client who only ever texted in all caps, which is a funny detail. She wanted a dramatic piece for the dining room wall. Something abstract, big, expensive looking, sexy energy. But tasteful was the actual note. So I reached out to an artist I'd met at a design fair in Mexico City a year before. Super talented, a little intense. Think Rothko meets burned out sculptor. Vibes. He did these layered oil works with brutal textures. Organic, violent, but beautiful. Exactly the vibe. We talked through the palette, the mood, the size, 5 by 7ft. Wow. Canvas only, no frame. He sent me some early mockups, all intentionally vague. I forwarded them to the client, who responded with love. Finalize. I sent the deposit. It arrived three weeks later in a custom crate, sealed tighter than a pharmaceutical shipment, by the way. Three weeks is incredibly fast, no?
- [38:46]
B
Yeah, it is fast.
- [38:47]
A
That's also kind of a bit of a red flag.
- [38:49]
B
Yes.
- [38:50]
A
Yep. The delivery guys unboxed it in the entryway while I was directing furniture placement. I hadn't seen the final version yet. Just sketches, color swatches, and one cryptic close up photo that looked like nothing at the time. So we get it unwrapped, and the canvas is stunning. The colors are deep and layered, like oxidized copper and bruised plum. The strokes are aggressive but elegant. It looks expensive. Then we tilt it upright, and there it is, dead center. A massive, unmistakably phallic shape. Abstract, yes, but very much a penis. Not subtle. In the middle of my client's $30,000 dining room feature wall. The delivery guys go quiet. I go pale. The installer, Blessom, mutters, is that intentional?
- [39:36]
B
Oh, my God.
- [39:37]
A
I wanted to say no. I wanted to scream. But here's the thing. The rest of the painting is incredible. And once you stop seeing it as that, you start seeing it as movement, gesture, a central form. Power. Maybe grasping at straws a little. Except you can't stop seeing it as that. I texted the artist something diplomatic like, hey, piece looks amazing. Just curious, what was your inspiration for the central form? He replied instantly. Desire, tension. The divine masculine. It's about hunger, not anatomy. Which, by the way. Ew.
- [40:14]
B
Oh, my God. Cool.
- [40:15]
A
Now I have to explain divine masculine hunger to a client who just wanted something sexy, but safe for dinner parties with hedge fund people. I considered Rotating it. Tried it. Landscape. Worse. Tried it upside down. No luck. Finally, I took a breath, turned it back upright, stepped back, and started laughing. And I couldn't stop, because, honestly, it was good. It was bold. It had a weird power to it. And maybe that's why I didn't send it back. The client came by two days later. She walked in, gave it one look, tilted her head, and said, it's giving dominance. I love it. And that was that. No one said another word, including me.
- [40:55]
B
Huh. Oh, my God. I feel like I have a lot of thoughts.
- [41:00]
A
I need all your thoughts. I need all your thoughts.
- [41:03]
B
Okay. So clearly, as somebody with expertise in contemporary art, I am no stranger to penises and vaginas and naked bodies in general. I think this is a big, you know, like, there's nothing that could shock me or that a client hasn't bought or that I. You know, I am not a huge fan of penises in my house, but I think they're a part of some really important.
- [41:28]
A
Absolutely.
- [41:29]
B
I mean, bodies of work. And, you know, sometimes ironically, like Judith Bernstein comes to mind. So anyway, commissions can be so tricky, but I'm just shocked that this designer didn't ask for an image. I mean, generally when I commission something with a client, it's only with an artist I know really well and have worked with in the past. And we're very explicit about what sort of body of work we want this to come out of. And it's generally something that commissioning an abstract painting, I honestly don't know that I would do that. It's just. It's too risky.
- [42:06]
A
Risky.
- [42:08]
B
And there's generally a deposit, but the remainder, the balance is paid upon approval. And that, you know, there's images of the full painting that are reviewed very carefully for approval. And I have had, you know, situations in the past where the painting doesn't look like what we thought it was going to look like, and we need to work with the artist to rectify the situation. So the fact that it was, like, shipped in a crate and uncrated without having been looked at is very surprising to me.
- [42:34]
A
Yeah. Couple red flags.
- [42:36]
B
Couple red flags. And I also think that it is, you know, absolutely fine to commission a painting from, you know, an unknown artist that's more decorative and following decorative cues. And I think. I really do think that art should not be something that is, quote, good or not good. For certain reasons. I don't want people to ever feel that way, that what they have isn't good because it's not a name artist like that's kind of counter to everything I believe about art. But I do think if a client wants something that speaks to a certain audience and feels a certain way, they're seeking out an artist who has a known body of work that makes work that fits within that criteria is so much more sensible than approaching somebody that you know a little bit and just asking them to make something based on vague aesthetic descriptors. Yeah, but I think if the client doesn't want to work with an advisor, and that's not 100% your forte like that, that maybe is what happens.
- [43:37]
A
Well, and I was just gonna say it's again, making a case for working with an advisor because I could again, as a designer, see how that happens. Maybe your client isn't as communicative as you need them to be. That certainly happens. And so, you know, great, Approved. You take that as good to go. You should have definitely reviewed the photos, but you're busy. It's about to be install and it just gets pushed off the list because there's too many moving pieces. Whereas if you're an art advisor, you're working for them on this one piece, your job is to make sure it is perfect and exactly what you guys spoke about. And it can't slip through the cracks because that is the whole job. And so not the whole job, but a big piece of it.
- [44:22]
B
Yeah, a big piece of it.
- [44:23]
A
I feel like that again. I mean, I just commissioned a piece and it turned out fine. But like, it's scary.
- [44:29]
B
You always say the little thing.
- [44:31]
A
Hallelujah. But also, I mean, we had like almost a two hour zoom with the artist, with the client. We talked about individual bodies of work.
- [44:39]
B
Exactly.
- [44:39]
A
Here's what we want with this. And we saw final photos. And you know what happened? She got it. And she was not obsessed with it at first. And I was like, oh, fuck, what are we gonna do?
- [44:48]
B
Yeah.
- [44:48]
A
And she lived with it. She ended up loving it. And it was. But that was after seeing the final photos approved and sent. Even then, your clients can sometimes still feel like it's not the piece they thought they were getting, which is difficult.
- [45:04]
B
I have a lot of thoughts on commissions. I could feel like I could do a whole podcast on commissions.
- [45:08]
A
You may have to.
- [45:08]
B
I know. Just to give a quick version.
- [45:11]
A
Please.
- [45:11]
B
I really. I do them as a last resort. I hesitate to do them unless it's the only reasons I would recommend them over buying an existing work is like the artist truly doesn't have any work in the studio and there's not anything that's you know, there's nothing in the right size. There's nothing from a particular body of work. And I think if you get an artist at a certain point in their career or a certain point in their sort of cadence of what they have on their plate within kind of the right scenarios, like, they are willing to do it. But I never want my client to walk away with an anomalous work. What I want them to have is just something that feels consistent with what the artist is producing anyway. That feels like it's a true representation of a body of work that the artist. It's still ongoing. They're not sort of reaching back into the past and reviving something. It's an ongoing body of work. It makes sense for them. It's something that could have been created next week, but it just happens to be being made now because there's this specific demand for it. But you have to let the artist do their thing. That's where abstraction gets really challenging because that is really intuitive. And something that often artists, you can't really dictate those much to an abstract composition beyond, say, maybe palette and size. But with other bodies of work, you can have a client say, wow, I love what they did. And if there was something sort of in that vein that existed, clearly an original new painting, but something like this, I would buy it. Then I feel okay with it. But I really have. There's a lot of hand holding when it comes to commissions. And a lot of that is just with the client saying, we have to let as much as possible. We can't dictate to the artist. We have to let them do their thing.
- [46:50]
A
They have to be okay with it coming in a million different ways and still loving it. Because they love the artist.
- [46:56]
B
Yes, exactly. And I think, you know, you want. Also just thinking of resale, you want that client to be able to, you know, say, take this painting to Sotheby's for an estimate and have them not say, ooh, this is really, like, specific. I don't know if this is going to appeal to a broad audience. This is very much like.
- [47:11]
A
That's an excellent point for this wall.
- [47:13]
B
Or for this family or for this place. You know, you want it to just. You don't want anyone to be able to, you know, tell that it was a commission.
- [47:20]
A
Yeah.
- [47:20]
B
So I think making sure that that is the case is also really paramount.
- [47:24]
A
But that's a. And I mean, obviously that's so. Yeah, I've never thought about that the way that you would need to have it appraised obviously, because the level that you're working at, they are, you know, spending a high amount of money. And then if it's a commission, if it's based on the space, if it's something that's too niche, it doesn't. The value doesn't retain.
- [47:44]
B
It doesn't. It doesn't. It's like a quirky, It'll be a quirky, sort of anomalous, like painting in that body of work. You know, say there's a series that's all really, really large scale. And the artist is sort of known for making these monumental paintings of X, Y, Z. And then you want a small one. I mean, it's possible that the artist would be willing to like, huh, that's interesting. I've never worked in that way. I'd be interested in exploring that. If they're willing to do it, maybe they do it for you. But you turn around to sell it and you're going, all of these are 100 inches and this is this like funky 40 inch one. You know, it just doesn't. It doesn't fit. Yeah, it doesn't fit. And so, you know, I always try to really help the client to understand that and, you know, proceed with eyes wide open. And sometimes they really don't care. This is the space they have and they want this and they're not planning to resell it. They live with it forever and everyone's happy, which is great. As long as they know is enjoying it. Yes. So experimenting. So I think. Yes, as long as they know. Exactly.
- [48:40]
A
Brilliant. Okay, well, I think the pendants on this one is easy. They need to hire an art advisor.
- [48:45]
B
Yes.
- [48:46]
A
Immediately bring in an art advisor. Because they don't know that you have the time to manage commissions how they should be managed. And that's no shade. I've done the same thing.
- [48:55]
B
No, totally, totally.
- [48:57]
A
Until you're doing it and then you're like, oh my God, totally. Much like, I'm sure you know people who take on renovations on their own and they're like, I had no idea. You don't know what you don't know until you're in the middle of it.
- [49:06]
B
I could never put together a room that made sense. So I really.
- [49:08]
A
I'm sure you could, but there's a reason we both have different jobs and.
- [49:12]
B
Are in different places. You got to bring the expert in. For sure, for sure, for sure.
- [49:20]
A
Okay, so we're gonna round out with some questions. What's one thing you wish every designer understood about working with art?
- [49:27]
B
I don't Know, if this is 100% accurate, I guess it would be interesting to hear from you. But my interpretation of things, you know, coming from the outside is that, you know, often art becomes sort of like part of a mood board in with like, you know, couch, curtains, rug, all of these things. You have to kind of, that have to sort of speak and talk to each other. And then sometimes I'll see like art kind of pulled in there and I get it. I really, really do. And I think sometimes that, that, that makes complete sense. But I think sometimes the most successful installations, in the end, I like when art adds something a little bit unexpected. And I always want the collection to look like you inherited it from your parents and it has nothing to do with your house, but we're gonna make it work. Or like you moved into a completely different style of house and we're reinstalling the collection. You want it to be a little bit off, unexpected. Yeah. And maybe it doesn't match, but it works. And I think it's that sort of what you can't put your finger on, but it just works. And I think, you know, the art should be as imperfect as you can possibly get it.
- [50:23]
A
It's like the cool girl effect. Right. Like, you look like you're trying too hard. Fluffed up shoe theory. It looks like you're trying too hard. If the painting perfectly matches everything, it looks like you are an art collector. If the piece goes with the space but is a departure on its own.
- [50:41]
B
Yeah, Like, I feel like the art can be chosen almost, almost separately and you know, you need to make sure it fits through the doorway and fits on the wall. Obviously if it's too big for the wall, we can't hang it. So I think like, that stuff is sort of a non neg negotiable. But you can pick the piece you, you love and you don't have to match it to the room. And we'll figure out a way to make that work.
- [50:57]
A
Love it. I think that's, yeah, brilliant. What's your advice for designers who want to establish and maintain a long term relationship with an art advisor?
- [51:05]
B
I think, you know, it's respecting one another's opinions and, you know, having great communication and also just like rolling the dice a little bit on a project and even just starting from like one thing, like say you're like, well, I don't know that this client's going to need, you know, 10 sort of collectible artworks. They're not that into art, but like their living room really does. It's like, let's just find one amazing painting for them and get the ball rolling and like try, sort of try that out together. And I think generally things go from there once either the client sees how that looks and then they think of other spaces and these projects too. The collecting, your project has more of a deadline because the client needs to move into the home and live in the home. You know, you could do art in the house over 15 years. You know, you could just start with the living room and then do another painting a year later. You know, I have a, I have a client who, you know, a couple of clients actually who buy one piece of art for like a birthday or an anniversary every year. Yeah.
- [51:58]
A
Bonus. That's something that happens.
- [51:59]
B
So it's like, this should be slow.
- [52:01]
A
Well, we intentionally leave spaces like holes on the wall in our spaces because I don't want to feel like I just. It's all curated, it's all perfect. Like. No, it needs to feel like, like you went somewhere, you fell in love with a piece, you, you know, and you were the one who brought it into your space.
- [52:21]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [52:22]
A
Brilliant. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Last but not least, things that made you feel. What's something that made you feel this week or last week?
- [52:34]
B
Well, this might be. Not again, not maybe not the answer you're looking for. A little bit of a professional departure. But I feel like what's been really fun is I have three kids and, and my oldest is eight. I have an eight year old, a six year old and a four year old. Wow, you're busy. Yes, busy. And I feel like I do it all for them. But my 8 year old son started becoming sort of. My job is kind of hard to explain. I'm not like a firefighter or a teacher. It's like, what do you do, Mom? What are you doing in here all day? I look at art and kind of. He really is starting to get to the point where he gets what I do or understands a little bit more. And I have a big library of art reference books I use in my office. Just like some of them are boring art law books, but a lot of them are full of pictures and they're interesting and some of them might be a little scary for him, but he started kind of going in there and going through books and flipping around and it's actually been very cool to kind of. He's back in school now, but you know, he's been hanging around like the last couple of weeks of summer and asking me questions and oh, how funny. He asked me if there's a take your son to work day, I'm like, well, I'm the boss. You can come to work with me anytime you want.
- [53:33]
A
That's so cute.
- [53:34]
B
You know, as long as my client says it's okay. So I think that was my. That's been my fun thing is getting him. He's actually interested in my job. And. And it's reinforced sort of the decision I made to keep at it even though they were little. It's like, okay, I'm doing something positive for them besides supporting the family, you know?
- [53:52]
A
Well, and how cool when a being that you made starts to take interest in your life. Like when you get to a certain age where they're like, oh, my mom's, like, maybe a person, and not just, like, the person who does everything for me.
- [54:04]
B
I know for sure.
- [54:05]
A
And then start to realize, like, real personalities and all of that. That's gonna be rewarding.
- [54:09]
B
I don't think he's a hundred. I don't think I'm. Maybe not all of you. Yeah, he'. I don't think he totally knows I'm a person, but maybe soon he at.
- [54:16]
A
Least knows you're a mom with a job.
- [54:18]
B
Yes, yes, yes. Mom has a job. That's true. He does know that now.
- [54:22]
A
Okay. Laura, thank you so much for being here. This was so fun. I flew by. Where can we find you on socials and all of that?
- [54:29]
B
Yes. So I'm Lester Fine Art on my website, and Instagram is also handle. Is also Lester Fine Art. So amazing, though.
- [54:39]
A
Okay, well, thank you so much for being on.
- [54:41]
B
Thank you.
- [54:41]
A
I really appreciate it. And until next time, peace be with you.