I confess… the FBI crashed my install

Summary

Confessions of an Interior Designer: Episode Summary

Episode Title: I Confess… the FBI Crashed My Install
Release Date: March 12, 2025
Hosts: Caroline Turner & Guest Elizabeth Krueger
Duration: Approximately 68 minutes

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Confessions of an Interior Designer, host Caroline Turner welcomes Elizabeth Krueger, founder of Elizabeth Krueger Design, a seasoned interior designer with over a decade of experience in new construction, large-scale renovations, and full home furnishing projects. The episode delves deep into the real-life challenges and unexpected twists within the luxury interior design industry, offering listeners raw and engaging stories that transcend typical design discussions.

Guest Introduction and Personal Journey

Caroline Turner opens the conversation by expressing her admiration for Elizabeth Krueger and her team, highlighting their seamless collaboration and mutual respect within the industry. Elizabeth shares her journey from studying communications and marketing at DePaul University to becoming a renowned interior designer. She recounts her early struggles, including unsuccessful job applications and the pivotal moment when she secured her first major project through a familial connection.

Notable Quote:

Caroline Turner [03:45]: "How did you get here?"
Elizabeth Krueger [03:45]: "I went to DePaul University for undergrad... I ended up working with Tracy Hickman for over two years, which was a foundational experience."

Elizabeth emphasizes the importance of entrepreneurial spirit and the willingness to take risks, noting how even modest beginnings can lead to significant achievements with perseverance and adaptability.

Building a Successful Design Business

The discussion shifts to the intricacies of running a successful interior design firm. Both hosts share personal anecdotes about their early careers, the evolution of their businesses, and the critical role of assembling a trustworthy and competent team.

Notable Quote:

Elizabeth Krueger [17:12]: "How to operate a successful design business is not equal to having a beautiful project. It's trial by fire."

Caroline echoes the sentiment, highlighting the balance between creative passion and business acumen. They both stress the necessity of delegating responsibilities and trusting team members to foster a productive and enjoyable work environment.

Handling High-Profile Clients and Unexpected Challenges

A significant portion of the episode centers around handling high-profile clients and navigating the complexities that come with large-scale projects. Elizabeth shares insights into managing client expectations, maintaining creative integrity, and overcoming unforeseen obstacles during project executions.

Notable Quote:

Caroline Turner [09:22]: "There's always something that's going to be throwing a wrench into things... understanding that even massive jobs have similar issues as smaller ones."

This segment underscores the universal challenges in the design industry, regardless of project size or budget, and the importance of resilience and problem-solving skills.

Listener Confessions: The FBI Incident

The episode takes a dramatic turn with a compelling listener confession shared by Elizabeth. An anonymous interior designer recounts a harrowing experience working for a billionaire who was later implicated in money laundering and fraud. The confession details how this high-paying job initially seemed like a dream opportunity but gradually revealed itself to be fraught with ethical and legal dangers.

Detailed Summary: The listener describes receiving an enticing job offer to become the personal designer for a billionaire's extensive property portfolio, which included mansions, private estates, yachts, and planes. Initially attracted by the lucrative salary and benefits, the designer was bound by strict non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) that restricted employment opportunities outside this exclusive role.

Over a decade, the designer witnessed unsettling signs that hinted at the client's illicit activities, such as extravagant expenditures and cryptic business dealings. Despite growing suspicions, the designer remained in the position, solely focused on the creative aspects of the job. The situation culminated in an unexpected FBI raid during a renovation project, where the designer was interrogated about the client's suspected money laundering operations. Although no charges were filed, the event left a lasting impact, forcing the designer to reassess career choices and personal values.

Notable Quotes:

Designer [31:28]: "Early in my career, I worked with a billionaire businessman famous for being on all those power lists... it sounded like a dream job."

Designer [36:54]: "They told me he was a prime suspect. My heart was pounding, and I felt my body go cold."

Designer [40:43]: "I will never work with someone like him again. Never ever."

Elizabeth and Caroline engage in a profound discussion about the ethical dilemmas designers may face, the importance of trusting one's instincts, and the potential consequences of prioritizing financial gain over moral integrity.

Positive Confession: Expanding to Amsterdam

Balancing the intense confession, the episode also features a positive story from another listener who successfully expanded their interior design business to Amsterdam. This confession highlights the challenges and rewards of international expansion, including cultural differences, language barriers, and managing operations across continents.

Detailed Summary: The designer shares their experience of opening a second office in Amsterdam while maintaining their established firm in the United States. Despite initial fears of logistical complexities and the daunting task of balancing two offices, the expansion proved fruitful. Embracing technology and virtual collaboration tools played a crucial role in managing projects efficiently. The Amsterdam office allowed for creative experimentation and collaborations with local artisans, enriching the designer's portfolio and business growth.

Notable Quotes:

Designer [31:37]: "Balancing both was really challenging at first... running two offices in two different time zones is no joke."

Designer [53:00]: "Before she writes it, she needs to forgive herself because I think most of us would have made the same decision."

Elizabeth commends the courage and strategic planning required for such a move, emphasizing the personal and professional growth that comes from stepping out of one's comfort zone.

Team Dynamics and Personal Growth

Caroline and Elizabeth delve into the significance of building a reliable team and fostering a supportive work environment. They discuss strategies for empowering team members, maintaining trust, and ensuring that personal well-being is prioritized alongside business success.

Notable Quote:

Elizabeth Krueger [62:52]: "Empowering them to make a decision... it's about the intention behind it. Sometimes their decision was better than the one that I would have made too."

Caroline reflects on her own experiences with team management, highlighting the benefits of delegating tasks and the positive impact it has on both the leader and the team.

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

As the episode nears its end, the hosts engage in a heartfelt conversation about personal experiences, the importance of self-care, and the value of learning from both successes and failures. They share moments that recently made them feel proud and joyful, reinforcing the episode's theme of authenticity and resilience in the design industry.

Notable Quote:

Elizabeth Krueger [66:00]: "My son... he was so brave. He looked at me and said, 'Mom, I worked really hard and I didn't cry.'"

Caroline Turner [66:44]: "One of my favorite things in the whole world is small children swearing... I know that's hilarious."

The hosts wrap up the episode by celebrating the end of the season, expressing gratitude to their guests and listeners, and encouraging continued engagement through various platforms.

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Key Takeaways

• Entrepreneurial Spirit: Taking risks and embracing challenges are essential for business growth and personal development in the interior design industry.
• Ethical Considerations: Designers must remain vigilant about the integrity of their clients and projects to avoid becoming unwitting accomplices in illicit activities.
• Team Trust: Building a trustworthy and competent team is crucial for managing large-scale projects and maintaining a healthy work-life balance.
• Adaptability: Expanding internationally requires adaptability, strategic planning, and the effective use of technology to overcome logistical challenges.
• Personal Growth: Balancing professional ambitions with personal well-being leads to a more fulfilling and sustainable career.

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Connect with Caroline Turner and Elizabeth Krueger

• Caroline Turner:

  • Instagram: @confessionsofid
  • TikTok: @carolineturnerinteriors
  • Facebook Group: Confessions of ID
  • Website: Confessions Podcast

• Elizabeth Krueger:

  • Website: ElizabethKruegerDesign.com
  • Instagram: @Elizabeth.Krueger.Design
  • Furniture Line: Opame Collective

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Stay Tuned for Season Two

Although this episode concludes the first season, Confessions of an Interior Designer promises to return with more engaging stories and insider insights. Listeners are encouraged to submit their anonymous confessions and stay connected through the podcast's social media channels.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Caroline Turner]

Welcome to Confessions of an Interior Designer. I'm your host, Caroline Turner. Here we talk through the crazy stories that they certainly don't tell you in design school because let's face it, every space has its sins. Are you ready to hear confession? Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to introduce Elizabeth Krueger. Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the founder of Elizabeth Kruger Design and has over a decade of experience in new construction, large scale renovation, and full home furnishing projects. Since being established in 2012, EKD's work has been featured in Architectural Digest, Elle Decor, Lux Magazine, along with many other publications. Hi, Elizabeth. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Oh my God, I am thrilled. We are my team. I had mentioned this to you when I had shared that I was going to be on the podcast. It's like you're the celebrity at ekd.

[Caroline Turner]

It's so funny. And I told you, I'm obsessed with your team. So it all works. Hi, girls. It all works out.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

The feelings mutual.

[Caroline Turner]

I love that. Which you really have made an amazing team. You should be very proud. We go to a lot of the same events and see them out and they're just so lovely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I appreciate that.

[Caroline Turner]

So we have never met face to face, but because you've been in the industry for so long, obviously I've heard your name a lot in Chicago. And so when I was an intern, this was 2017 probably.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

I went to a first dibs party for Neocon or something, which. The first dibs party used to be so fun. I don't know why, what happened either. They don't do it anymore. We're not getting invited. But it was the best party of the year in my opinion. So if you're listening, please bring that back. But I had someone who worked for you. You know, I was just mingling. I was so green. I mean, I can only imagine the shit that I was saying to these people because I just had no ide. Your team was so nice and they gave me their business card and they were like, you seem like you could be a really good fit. Please call us if you're ever interested in working for us. Like, we would love to have you. And I've just thought so highly of you and your team since that moment. They, like, had no reason to be that nice to me so early in my career. But they still were, even though, like, I couldn't, you know, give them anything in return. And so I've always felt so fondly for you and your team. Cause as we know, you know, It's a very top down thing. Like whoever's in charge really sets the tone for everyone else.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

We say all the time, like, I never worry about them being like, good stewards of the business because I know who they are as people. So I know they'll never like, embarrass us or do anything that would. That I wouldn't do.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. That is such a lovely story. And guess what? I'm not surprised to hear that either. So that is.

[Caroline Turner]

I love them.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right. I feel like it speaks to, like, the integrity of the people that you work with. Also, we spend more time. Time with our co workers and sometimes our significant.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely right.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So it's like I. I want to enjoy myself. So I love, I love hearing that.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, that's so sweet. I feel the same way. I feel like I don't. And we were talking about this, my team, we all went to dinner last week and we were saying, like, we don't dread coming into work. We like going into work, which is such a concept that I didn't know existed. And I'm so glad it does.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yep. Love that for us, Carol.

[Caroline Turner]

Agreed. Okay. All right. Well, the classic question, and I know you have a lot to probably say about this. How did you get here?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Let me, like, give quick bullet points on the initial part of the story. So I went to DePaul University for undergrad when my sister was dropping me off for school. She's like, you should study interior design. And I said, I don't think that's a real job. I did my undergrad in communications and marketing my senior year. I was like, oh, I think I really want to do interiors. So classically called my dad and was like, bad news. I think I want to go to design school. And he was like, okay, you know, what does this all mean? So anyways, I'm still in Chicago. He's like, if you want to go to school, you still need to work at night or go to school at night and work during the day.

[Caroline Turner]

Vice versa. Sure.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. So I had applied to like Home Depot, Pier 1 Imports. I didn't get called back. Right. Like, I could be working at Home Depot.

[Caroline Turner]

Home Depot really missed out. Yeah, they're kicking themselves right now.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

They're like, who's this bitch? So I had a college friend whose mom was the manager at Brunswig and Fee. I went and met with her and she was like, hey, Holly Hunt usually has a great intern program. Why don't you go check them out? So obviously, never having heard them before, went, got A job there. Did textile sales, furniture sales. Got hired by a fantastic interior designer in Chicago named Tracy Hickman.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Worked with her for two plus years. And I'm sure you can relate to this. When I think about, like, going out on my own, I thought I knew so much, but I didn't. And thank God it's like, you don't know, because I wouldn't have done it had I not.

[Caroline Turner]

Ignorance is really blatant. Like I say every day, if I had any concept of how much this really entails, I would have been so terrified and never done it. Thank God I did it. Thank God.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes, truly. So my brother was a developer in Chicago at the time, and he had a friend who was doing, like, a residential. I think it was like three and a half or four million dollars. And he was like, I really want a designer attached to the spec.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So it was with that one job that I had the ability to go out of my own.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, yeah, one job at the 3 or 4 million range is the. That's the dream.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right?

[Caroline Turner]

Wow. My first job budget was $5,000. The budget for the living room was $5,000. I think I got paid $50.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

But look at you now.

[Caroline Turner]

It worked out. That is incredible.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That's a really important point, which is, you know, a lot of designers are working on these huge projects. Right. And so you think like, well, I need one of those. Well, you don't. I think if it's really meant for you and you really feel entrepreneurial and you really feel like you want to hang up your own shingle, you can make. Make whatever out of it that it is.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. I knew no one. I was so young when I started the business, so there was no one in my age group that had money. Like, no. Everyone was like a starving artist. Or if they were working in corporate, they weren't making enough money to do it to that level. Everyone lived in tiny apartments. But I was like, but I have to have something to be able to tell people I'm working and to be able to take photos of it. So I just took the smallest jobs that, you know, any job that was brought to me, I took. And there was. The reason I went off on my own was because there was one client that hired me to do their Michigan house. But, yeah, still I was taking, like, very small jobs. I mean, it took took five years for us to get to the point that we could say we only do whole homes. And, like, we're at this budget level, of course, took a long, long time yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

What my original portfolio photos are. I'm like, oh, honey, I know.

[Caroline Turner]

I was playing in the Sims. Like, what?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes. And that's okay. I mean, I think it's about, like, confidence in yourself and, like, what the value you can add. Like, it's not always cute in the beginning, but if you're, like, willing to refine and be objective and, like, assess the situation, you know, that's how things can evolve and develop.

[Caroline Turner]

I do think that that's the difference between a dreamer and an entrepreneur is someone who is just willing to take the leap and figure it out and do. And then make it perfect. Like, you can't. You can't iterate until you've done it.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

So it can live in your head for 20 years, but if you never take that leap, you can't ever make it better. And so I feel like taking the leap early and then changing and learning as we go. It was the only way that this could have happened. And I do think that is what makes the difference. Even though it's fucking terrifying.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

It really is. And also this idea of, well, it has to look a certain way or it's not perfect. It's like, that's never, never. I mean, I could read you, like, year by year, the list of failures, right?

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And that's just. I think it's about, like, being accountable to them and learning from them and, you know. Yeah, of course it's messier than it looks on Instagram.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Well, and something I think that's really interesting is that until you get to the level where you're working on multi. Multimillion dollar jobs, if you're looking in from the outside in, you think, oh, that $10 million job. That designer must be, like, so thrilled. They're getting to do everything they want. Everything's perfect. And then when you're inside those $10 million jobs, you're like, actually, the client doesn't want this and they hate this, and this is what's happened here, and the footers got fucked up and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think it's easy to be like, oh, well, my small, tiny job. I have to, like, let my clients do whatever they want and blah, blah, blah. Like, it never is perfect. Even when you get to that amazing budget level, there's always something that's going to be throwing a wrench into things. And for me to understand that sounds obvious and maybe that's like a superfluous notion, but that helped me a lot coming to terms with, like, oh, okay. Even on these massive jobs that were like the dream job that I pined after for five years, there's still a lot of the same issues that there are on the $500,000 job.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Of course. I mean, I have a secret, which is that I had to delete Instagram from my phone because, like, the comparison was getting.

[Caroline Turner]

I completely get it.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So thick.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And it's like, this is like, as a 42 year old woman, I can say to myself, okay, this isn't telling the whole story, but I, like, couldn't connect the dots. And, you know, obviously I still have my feed up and running and it's very important for business, but, like, just like everybody else, like, we all suffer from, oh, my God, why didn't I think of that? Why? How did they get that job? Like, God, I just needed to, like, get a little quiet and be like, everything's fine.

[Caroline Turner]

Well, and I think that's so big of you to know that and to be able to take a break. I mean, I'm kind of in the same way. We don't have a marketing director right now, but when we did, I was able to, like, really not go on Instagram. They sort of handled it, I approved it, and then I never looked at anything. And I've never been more mentally healthy than when I'm able to be like, yep, looks good. I'm not looking at anyone else's shit. And it's not because I'm jealous or because I don't want to be, like, supportive to other people in the industry.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Totally.

[Caroline Turner]

But it was because it was genuinely making me ill. Like, I would see someone's job and. Or someone did something or, oh my God, that person was an Architectural Digest. What do you mean? And the thoughts for me were not positive. They weren't, I'm so happy for them. Or if they were, it took me a while to get there and I. I can't be trusted.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, okay. Also, I mean, I've had enough therapy to know that two things can be true at the same time.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I'm happy for you. And I'm also, like, jealous as fuck. And what's wrong with me that I feel that way.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Because of course, celebrating everyone's accomplishments, like, it's incredible what's happening.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

It's incredible. So I think it says more about me and just like my relationship to the information.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And you know, that's currently what I'm trying to work on.

[Caroline Turner]

I think that is brilliant. And I'm jealous. I want to get back to that point so badly. I really do think it's interesting because, you know, we use TikTok a ton.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah, you are like a TikTok goddess.

[Caroline Turner]

I don't know about that, but it's crazy because I don't feel that way on TikTok. I don't feel that way on TikTok. I don'T get that comparison feeling. And maybe it's like, you know, Instagram's pretty saturated obviously. And so I feel like, at least for me, like, I don't have a personal Instagram, I just have my design Instagram. So everyone I follow is also a designer. And so. Or like our clients, obviously. And so for me, signing into Instagram felt like an extension of work. Whereas, like TikTok, even though, like we make videos, it's so much more vast and there's like a lot more to see and do and you're not just in this like bubble of other interior designers and that's all you're seeing. You're seeing like a video about a octopus and a baby seal that are friends. Like, it really gives you like a palate cleanser in between. And then you're able to be like, oh, okay, cool. That's cool that they're doing X, Y, Z and you're not. So like, it does something to my brain where it doesn't make me in such like a maybe because my brain doesn't feel like it's in work mode. Maybe Instagram puts it into work mode and then it automatically goes into like a comparison. Whereas TikTok, I'm like, we're all just being a little goofy. Yeah, it's silly here.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay. I love that. Well, also, I don't have TikTok. I've never been on TikTok. And that's how, you know I'm what, 12 years older than you?

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, listen, I don't even think it's that there are people younger than us. We'll be around tables and stuff and they'll be like, we are never getting on Instagram or on TikTok. Okay.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Like, that's funny.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, listen, I think everybody just has to find what works for them. And it doesn't mean that it can't be like a double edged sword. We've gotten some incredible projects through Instagram and obviously, like, I'm sure I'll be on it again personally. But you know, it just, it's kind of like a reset that I needed.

[Caroline Turner]

I love that. And you're inspiring me. That is amazing. Okay, so you had this big job that you got through connections, which is perfect. That's how we all get our first jobs, I feel like. But how did you take that first job and then parlay it into this firm that has now been running for years and years?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. So the builder on the project, so he was building it as a spec home. So I got to work with him just on making, like, all the architectural finishes. And when I think back on that, I didn't make a lot of money from it. But what happened was, like, the next couple of projects, when he got a buyer, he had referred me then to the buyer. So then I got to furnish the home. So when I really think back on was just a grind. Like, I just showed up each day. I'm not sure that I was very clear on where I was going. I think I got to the point where I was like, oh, okay, I'm out in the field all day. I'm answering emails all night. I'm doing some design work in the morning, running around. And this therapist that I was seeing at the time was like, hey, I think it's a good idea if you figure out what you want to do and then hire for the rest. So I like, God, that's genius.

[Caroline Turner]

Been all my life.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah, seriously. So, you know, went through that exercise, and, you know, that of course, was bumpy. And you realize, like, as a business owner for design, I, like, I got into this because I loved interiors. I didn't realize I was then going to become a manager and a therapist. Yeah, right. And, like, HR and. And all of those things. So, like. Like, all of that, of course, for years, was messy. And so it probably, like, genuinely wasn't until year seven, you know, we started to kind of get the right team in place and understand the structure of, like, how do you kick off a project? How do you, you know, that's. I feel like a whole book can be written about that. Like, how to operate a successful design business is not equal to having a beautiful project. It's not?

[Caroline Turner]

No, it is not. Some of my beautiful projects, I made $0, ended up with money out of my pocket, and I hate those motherfuckers. So, like, it doesn't. Those two things do not compute, unfortunately.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

It's true. It's true. So, like, you know, obviously at some point there was this, like, alchemy around understanding who the right client was, understanding what the right team looks like, understanding fits and budgets, and, you know, this has got to work for everybody. And that's something that I just kind of learned by going through it.

[Caroline Turner]

Trial by fire. A little bit.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I know so much more now will be. This is our 13th year this year, but, wow.

[Caroline Turner]

Congratulations.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Thank you.

[Caroline Turner]

Seriously, that's such an accomplishment.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I was. I dropped my kids off at school this morning, and I was thinking about how much more, like, legit the team makes our process and, like, our creative selections. Like, is it fair to say that in a way, I'm, like, kind of directing traffic like, I'm reviewing?

[Caroline Turner]

Yep, I think that's exactly how it feels.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. But they are so much better at the details. I mean, I have a client right now who I love, and she's always like, what are you doing here? Yeah, we know you're not the one who's doing this shit.

[Caroline Turner]

And I'm like, lisa, come on. Okay, Lisa, clock me. Why don't you?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So I love, you know, obviously, like, there's a tremendous amount that goes on behind the scenes, but, yeah, major shout out to Aaron on our team, who is the director of operations and has, like, legitimized our process.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Keeps everybody on track. And then there are three design teams that we have, and, like, each one's lovelier than the next, more organized than I could. It's like, you know, without being ridiculous. It's like I'm inspired by each one of them, which is an incredible place to be.

[Caroline Turner]

That's. That's all you could ever ask for from your team. I mean, I feel the same way. Not just because one's sitting in front of me staring at you, making you say that. No, but I really do feel the same way. Like, it took me a while to get to the point where I could really relinquish the amount of control that was necessary for them to be able to do the best job possible. But we've now gotten there, and I can tell they're so much happier. I'm so much happier. Like, I'm feeling under the weather. And two years ago, I would've, like, stayed at the office and really just, like, worked through it and tried to cause, like, who else can do it but me? I have to be here. I'm such a martyr. And frankly, I'm pro. When we're done with this, I'm probably gonna go home and get in my bed and know that the team has it handled. And that is a gift that, like, I can't even. It's, like, hard to communicate how much that has changed my life and, like, how different everything is because of them. It's what you're saying the team makes all the difference.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, let me ask you this too, because it's an interesting skill to be able to build a team that you trust, right?

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That is not a given. That is not. Again, it's kind of a messy process. But when you have people who. There's integrity on both sides of people, I always say doing what you say you're gonna do is the quickest way to build trust.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. With yourself too.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. So, yeah, it's definitely like, I didn't know any. Any of that going into that. Those are the things that I was like, oh, Lord.

[Caroline Turner]

I will say that working for other people in what I would call a negative experience taught me more than anything else.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Sure.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, I mean, I had a great experience in California. Very intense, but a great experience. And I loved that boss. I just felt like she was just a genius. And so taking that experience, which, like, you know, we would get emails at 6am, be in the office by 7:30, because we're starting the presentation over, like, it was an intense, intense situation. But, God, it was never, in my mind, negative because I perceived it as, like, in the most pure form of, like, artist that I had ever worked with, like, creative. She was just a genius. And so I was sort of willing to follow her, her to the ends of the earth because I believed in her genius. Alternatively, I've worked for people who are not as genius as they think they are, to put it lightly, want to demand the same level. And, like, it doesn't. To me, it doesn't work.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Inspire.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Because I don't think that they're like, of the level of genius. That was my first experience. And that's not to say that you need to ignore your boss if they're not as genius as one of your other bosses. That's not my point at all. At all. But what I am saying is that, like, even though she was a genius, the way that I got to watch the way she treated people. And alternatively, I have had situations where you're like, does this person even know anything? And they're treating everyone badly. Also, like, there is a sickness that can infiltrate firms. Like, when you get to the like, 10, 12, 15 person, like, again, top down, if there's something weird going on at the top, it creates an anim that permeates the entire firm. And it can just. It's like when oak trees, like, get a hint of a fungus, they're immediately dead. It's the same thing. It feels like if there's gonna Be. And so picking the right people and making sure that you vibe with them, they vibe with you, and you can trust them and then let them do their job. I feel like that's. And I mean, knowing what I do and don't want from watching other bosses hire, make mistakes.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, I'll say this, too. It's like you understanding how you want to be treated. And when I'm in a client designer position, I do my best work when I have their trust. So think about that from an employee perspective. It's like, if you're coming in and you're. It is not that I don't hold people accountable or that I don't have high expectations, but, like, you know, there are 12 ways to have that conversation. And, like, shaming someone is not going to get you ever what you need, right?

[Caroline Turner]

Yep. Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. I think it's like holding yourself to a certain standard while also, like, I had this great experience with a terrible client where at the end of it, I was like, oh, I completely, like, gave up all of my personal self, like, for your approval. And it was the worst. And I'm just like, I just want to have fun. Like, what are.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I. I want to enjoy this. This should be joyful. Like, look at what we get to do.

[Caroline Turner]

We're. We're, like, playing. Yeah, we say that all the time. There's a lot of hard parts, but we get to do it. Should be fun. Fun job. And we do say that we've had clients where they've worked with someone else before and then work with us, and they're like, this is so fun. I didn't realize it was supposed to be fun. And I'm like, yeah, like, we're not supposed to be having a bad time. We're not doing brain surgery over here. Giggle. And like, it's gonna. It's part of it. And I do think that. That while we, like, strive to give clients the best experience always, I really do believe that's part of it.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Like, we have had clients say to us, and Gracie and I talk about this all the time, like, we're almost a package deal, because I'll, you know, we'll be flying to Naples or whatever. And I'm like, gracie really needs to come with me. And they're always like, why? Why do you need her? Can't you just do it yourself? And I'm like, no, you don't understand. Short answer. No. Every single time that we both go together, the client turns and looks at me and says, I get it now. And I'm like, yeah, part of it is our dynamic, and the way that we are together makes it more fun for them, which you can't say to a client. But it'll be more fun if you let her. Can't. That's not really the selling point. But it's true. And I really do. I mean, we just went to Charleston, and our client said the same thing. She was like, I get it. I get why. And she's. We picked out appliances, we picked out stone, and all were just, you know, laughing the entire time. I mean, makes my life more fun, too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And I also think it's like, you can't have that if you're not delivering and you're not showing up.

[Caroline Turner]

So, like, absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That all becomes obvious. Like, if we're just there to fuck around and, like, nothing gets accomplished, that would drive me nuts. But obviously, that's not what's happening.

[Caroline Turner]

And our clients would never be okay with that. I think the only reason they're able to have fun is because we're also on top of our shit.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Exactly.

[Caroline Turner]

Because I've been the designer where I'm flustered. I don't have my shit together. Maybe before we fully have our process or before I'm confident enough to tell clients, no, I am bringing her. It is required. You know, like, I've just gotten to the point where I'll just tell clients, like, this is how we work. It's required.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Before that, though, the energy I would bring was, like, kind of disheveled and distraught and a little bit like. And who knows how that came across to the client. Even though I was bending over backwards for them to do what they asked. By not bringing Gracie, I was saving them money. Whatever. I've now realized, oh, it's way more important for us to have every single detail down to a T. And then we get to be fun and giggly and, like, fulfill that side of it. As long as we have our shit together, then we have fun. Having our shit together is. Yeah. I feel like a prereq to then. Yeah. Amazing, Amazing, amazing. Okay, so before we get into confessions.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

What is your vice?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, am I allowed to only have one?

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, you can have as many as you want. You can have as many as you want.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay. Well, I think my first one is I love to swear. As evidenced by our conversation here today.

[Caroline Turner]

You and me both, like.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Like, even when I was little, my mom and I would be like, mom, I just feel like I can express myself best with the F word.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes. You don't understand. Something about it really feels right to me. I'm the same exact way. I'm of the belief that, like, they're just words. What does it matter? Personally, my mom hates that argument.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Of course. Well, I have. Okay, so not too long ago. Well, maybe My son was 3 at the time. I was downstairs, and he was at the top of the stairs going, mom, what the fuck are you doing down there? And I called up to my husband, and I was like, brett, get your phone. So he pulls out his video, and I'm going, what? And Oliver's going, mom, what the. So here I'm downstairs, like, dying, laughing. Brett gets it on video.

[Caroline Turner]

And.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And I was like, you guys, I was proud that he used it in the proper context.

[Caroline Turner]

Listen, he has reading comprehension skills, okay? Oh, that's amazing. That is so good.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

We have that on video to play at his wedding.

[Caroline Turner]

That's iconic.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes. My mom is like, oh, my God, he's gonna get kicked out of preschool. And I was like, oh, he is such an angel baby. He just has been corrupted by his parents, and it's all gonna be.

[Caroline Turner]

It's horrible. But, like, one of my favorite things in the whole world is small children swearing. I know. There's that whole. There's like, a trend on TikTok where parents put their kids in the bathroom and let them swear as much as they film them and let them swear. You have one minute. Like, you have one minute. I'm gonna close the door. Only say bad words. And the way that these little kids are like, you fucking bitch. You little bitch. They are so ready to get into it. Oh, my God, it's amazing. And that will be me. As a parent, I fear it's just like, here, you can have a minute. Say every word you need to say, and then come out and be a great again. Don't ever say it at preschool.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes, exactly. Oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

That's hilarious. Okay, well, if swearing is advice, let's add that to my list as well.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah, right.

[Caroline Turner]

My list of vices is growing and growing. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. All right, well, should we get into confessions? I'm excited. Hi, Caroline. I'm an interior designer and have an interesting story that I think might be worth sharing on your podcast. I've told very few people about this, and I'm going to be vague with some of the details to protect the identity of those who were involved. I love when they say that because that means it's going to be show ticket juicy. I'm excited. Early in my career, I worked with a man who you have probably heard of. Everyone probably has. He's a billionaire businessman famous for being on all those power lists. But not many people know who he really is. And I spent 10 years working for him before I finally found out. Oof. What? At first, it sounded like a dream job. The salary offer was ridiculously good. The benefits were unbeatable. But he didn't want just any designer. He wanted me to be his personal designer for all of his properties. Every mansion, every private estate, yachts, planes, the works. I mean, yeah, talk about a dream job.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I would say yes, but also, that's throwing up red flags for me, 1,000%. But, like, only as a grownup. I want.

[Caroline Turner]

No, no, no.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Now you know what I mean?

[Caroline Turner]

Early in my career, it would have been like, sign me up, give me the contract. Where do I sign? Now I'd be like, I don't know about that. Especially because wanted to be the personal designer. Okay. Which let me keep going. The catch was that no one else could hire me even if there was no work being done. Not even his friends could. It was exclusive, which meant my time, my talents, and my designs were his. That's the red flag to me. What do you mean? Like, even with no work? Like, what am I supposed to do? I'm just supposed to sit there and you're just gonna pay me for no work? Interesting. I mean, I guess that sounds too good to be true.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Agreed.

[Caroline Turner]

And, you know, at first, I didn't ask questions. Who would? I had my own career, sure. But this was the opportunity I was set for life. And I thought, how could I not? But then came the NDAs. So many NDAs. Oh, I know. Every time I signed one, it felt like another wall was being built around me. And the more walls there were, the less I really understood. Or his empire. It felt like I was just another cog in this massive machine. And as long as I kept delivering on his properties, I'd be fine. We were just talking about. This is such a fun job. It's so we get together. This is like the opposite of that.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Scary.

[Caroline Turner]

I feel like I would be afraid to laugh in his presence. That is okay. It was an interesting environment to work in. Aside from working with his staff at times. I had met his wife, and she was lovely, but she wasn't involved much or even around, let's be honest. So the majority of the communication was with him. His kids were grown adults by the time I started, so I had been their designer on occasion. But I had hardly had interaction with them and only worked with their assistants, which I hear about that all the time with, like, celebrities and stuff. I would have such a hard time not getting to work with the person that you're designing for. Exactly. We gotta. I need to know you on a personal level to be able to make this a personal home. Where I'm designing a home for your assistant. Exactly. That's not. Huh. Well, and I have had that experience at one of the firms I worked for. They were designing a celebrity's home. We only worked with her assistant. And, like, it made it so weird because obviously the assistant is getting paid as much as, like, what they're spending on one sofa. Like, the yearly salary of the assistant is the cost of a $60,000. Do you know what I'm saying? And so for the assistant to be signing off on a $60,000 sofa was so uncomfortable, which for me, too. I wasn't even making $60,000, so I totally get it. But, like, to be the one that's like, yep, approved. That was. It was an. It was weird, for sure. But that was my role. His interior designer. An employee. Okay, that's interesting verbiage, because. Right, so you're W.2. Like, okay, no personal dinners, no family vacations. Just the designer. Oh, I see. They're trying to make. Okay, I see just professional interactions and discussion, nothing more. So I came and went as I was told, and I kept it professional.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

That distinction is interesting. But. Oh, God, the things I saw. I mean, if you're a residential designer, you see a lot. A lot. From expensive art to vaults full of rare collectibles, his obsession with certain design requests that didn't always make sense and sometimes striked me as odd. I didn't ask questions, though. It was all part of the job. Right. And beside, I kept reminding myself that the pay was incredible.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay.

[Caroline Turner]

But the longer I stayed, the harder it became to ignore the questions. What was he really doing? I never knew the details of his business, but there was always money to spend. So, so much money. Almost too much money. Hmm. There are rumors, whispers, really. Money laundering, fraud. But I was a designer, not an investigator. I told myself that I didn't need to know, and I didn't. I just kept working and staying made out of those conversations, which, like, yeah, what can you do? You can't be like, I overheard you on the phone and that's not right. Like, obviously you can't do anything. Like, if you're in this position for, like, a job that set you up like this. Like, I'm not gonna be asking questions. No, I'm just gonna keep talking. What do you mean? Are you doing something illegal? And also, like, hindsight is 20 20, obviously, of course. But I will say, like, with money laundering, if there's, like, even a question of that, that can get real dicey real quick. Like, if absolutely you're accepting money that is, like, for the sake of being laundered, you're potentially breaking the law without even knowing that you're doing that. So that would be where I'm like, whoa, if I'm in jeopardy of going to jail, then I do need to say something. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes. Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Then about two years ago, I was at one of his properties in the mountains overseeing a renov. The estate was sprawling, quiet, and peaceful. Or at least it was until the FBI showed up. Yeah, I have chills. Can you imagine? You're at your client's house, getting ready for the install, and literally pass up. Literally. The SWAT team's there. Like, be like, where are the cameras? I'm getting. My God. Oh, my God. Out of nowhere, they came in. Agents, a whole team. They swarmed the property like something out of a movie. And I didn't know what to do. I completely froze. They didn't care that I was just the interior designer or really who I was at all. They pulled me aside and they questioned me for what felt like forever. Oh, my God. That's terrifying.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

This poor.

[Caroline Turner]

I know.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I know.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. They told me they were investigating money laundering and fraud, along with a few other things that to this day, I do not know the entire extent of. They told me he was a prime suspect. My heart was pounding, and I felt my body go cold. The man I've been solely working for all this time, what did they know? Was I involved somehow? Was I part of this in some way? How did I not notice anything? I mean, I had seen things, sure, but I wasn't involved and never asked questions. I had no idea what was really going on. I was just designing spaces and mining my own business in order to keep this job. Oh, my God. Also, that does, like. If you think about you're sitting down with the FBI or whatever, and they're, like, asking you a question, saying, I don't know anything. I don't know anything isn't exactly a good defense. That's what people who are lying say. Exactly. So I'd be like, wait, am I lying? Yeah. They didn't charge me with anything. Thankfully. They eventually let me go, but the entire thing changed me I walked out of there feeling like I had a target on my back. I was part of something much bigger than I had ever realized. I mean, 10 years. 10 years of my life had been spent with this man, this family, and I had no idea what I was really involved in. Like, that's so. 10 years is so long.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So long.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Oh, God.

[Caroline Turner]

Even our best clients, working with just them for 10 years.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right. I was having that same thought. Like, it's. We all need, like, a break from each other.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes. In order for. Also, you know, creativity wise.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

One of my other jobs can fuel another job. Cause, you know, you're finding out something for something. So to just be working on their jobs for 10 years, I feel like I would be. Yeah. Very bored. Very, very bored. I left that job. Obviously, there was no way I could go back to it after that. And you might think I'd feel guilty, right. That I should have left sooner, but I don't know. I can't help but feel like I was just doing my job. That's what I keep telling myself. And maybe this is my confession about this story. I really don't think I did anything wrong. But I also can't escape that feeling that something more was happening all along and I should have listened to my gut or paid more attention to what was happening around me. My life is different now. I was a lot younger and naive when I was approached for this job. I'm more cautious about every job I take, about who I trust and what kind of power people really hold. I learned that sometimes the money is just not worth it. Not when you're involved in something you don't understand. I will never work with someone like him again. Never ever. Wow.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Whoa.

[Caroline Turner]

That is.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I. There's, like, so much to unpack there.

[Caroline Turner]

So much.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Like, first of all, I'm so sorry that they had that experience.

[Caroline Turner]

I know it's not ideal.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I feel like I, too, could have very easily succumbed to, like, how juicy that proposal sounded.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely. Yeah. Especially early in your career, you're like, this is the elusive unicorn client. Right? This is what everyone wants. This is the dream.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right. Only to find out, like we had said, like, sometimes you don't know what your bad situation is until you're in it, and then what do you do?

[Caroline Turner]

You know, I feel like when you're a designer who owns a firm and you have lots of clients, if this was one of your many clients, this would probably never even even, like, touch you. Like, you know, that's a bummer that one of Your clients is going to jail. But, like, it would, like, get paid, but otherwise, you're not, like, embedded in it. To be embedded in this family. That is money laundering. That is something that.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, I think, like, the accountant should feel guilty. I don't think that the design. I guess I don't know what she saw.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, she. She didn't explain very much what she meant by, of course I saw things.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

What does that mean?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That, I guess we'll never know.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And, like, I hope this wasn't for P. Diddy.

[Caroline Turner]

I know when we read this, we kind of thought the same thing. Well, and, yeah, there's a couple of other people that I do know. They had, like, personal interior designers for their multiple homes. I know someone, actually, who lives in Chicago who was a designer for, like, a family in the Bahamas for 10 years. And, I mean, she just lived down there and. And designed for this one family. But then the same thing, something happened where, like, they lost all their money. So she had no job. Like, after working her way up and, like, doing this for 10 years and becoming. Or I don't even know how long becoming like this. And then they, like, did. And so she had to start from the beginning and, like, find new, you know, so while it could, even if they're not money laundering, there's a lot of risk to this situation, for sure. I am very curious about the dynamics of gender. Like, was this a young woman? Because be willing to bet that the person who. Well, he. She said him and his wife. So it's a man, presumably a lot older than her. So the power dynamics there are also totally not ideal. Like, I think if you're being paid $150,000 a year, which is a drop in the bucket to a billionaire, but to you is more money than you've ever made in your life. Like, that power dynamic can get really, really tricky. Especially because it sounds like the wife was never really involved. Like, that relationship doesn't sound strong.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I know. I was also curious if there were any, like, sexually explicit transgressions, which nothing was mentioned. And I was think. Then I started thinking about, I wonder what they saw.

[Caroline Turner]

I know. Okay. I think we need to give some penance specifically to. Well, we'll give penance to the client and to the designer. I would say that my client penance is. I was gonna say something. I probably can't say, okay, so hopefully he is in prison or, you know, did something that he learned his lesson in some way. But my penance for him is that he has to Go to a regular prison, not a white collar country club prison that he most likely went to. So if he is at a country club at the moment, maybe we need a transfer, baby, you know? So I would say, wow, he probably is getting his penance from the justice system. Most likely. Most likely lady justice has brought her penance already. But also, why be a billionaire and money launderer? Like that piece? It doesn't compute to me. I don't understand. Once you already have billions of dollars, you can live off the dividends of those billions of dollars and never have to make another dollar. So I. That piece of it is like, the greed is really just outstanding. I can't. And like, well, he's a man, so he probably didn't feel like natural guilt. But. But I would say that for me, the penance alone would be living with the guilt that, like, I did that. I don't know, he probably is feeling that way. But I. What, what do you think? What should be his penance?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, I think 100% he doesn't feel guilty about it.

[Caroline Turner]

I think.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I don't think. I don't think you get to that level without some like Machiavellian level sociopath vibes.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Personality disorder.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think you're right about that.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

There's like, no. I don't know. I feel like that's between him and his maker.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, you know what? Maybe I have a good one. I hope that he can never trust an employee ever again. Yeah. I hope that no matter who he hires, no matter what happens with his business, he always, when he's falling asleep at night, knows that one of those people could turn him in. Like, I hope he just never has a minute of peace, you know? You know, that would be.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I think that's well earned on his.

[Caroline Turner]

Behalf, especially for the amount of the jeopardy that he put everyone else around him in. Like, talk about selfish. Okay. And designer penance. I would say hopefully you took a vacation or at minimum a bubble bath after you were questioned by the FBI. Not a thin insight sentence I thought I'd say on this podcast. But I also think maybe it's worth writing a book because I would love to know the deep in and outs, ins and outs of how that happened, what you did. See the little things that in hindsight. Look, those NDAs expired. Yeah. Talk to an attorney, figure out the NDA piece of it and then write a book. Cause I wanna read it. Really? It's a selfish, selfish penance.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That's good. You know what? I just had an idea. Maybe one of his tenants action items is that he has to give her her favorite house that she designed.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, that's a good one. That's a great one. That's a really good one. Yes.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Okay, so. And then he gets to pay the taxes on it.

[Caroline Turner]

He's financially responsible for it, but she gets it.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I agree with you. Let's see the tell all. But I think before she writes it, she needs to forgive herself because I think most of us would have made the same decision.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Like, nobody's perfect do live and you learn. Yeah. But I think part of the book that I want her to write is, like, what not to do. And like, you know, I think when she mentioned something like, there were things that I ignored. I think as you get older, you just, you, like, get to that decision a little bit more quickly. Like, I'm not gonna do that.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Well. And I think a lot of that comes with experience of like, I know that this isn't just gonna go away. Yeah. Because I've experienced something like it before.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Whereas when you and whatever nothing bad has happened, it's hard to even imagine the bad things that could happen. I think you're right. I think forgiving herself and knowing that, like, she made the best decision she could with the information she had and maybe she wouldn't make it again, but I'm sure there's things in her life that she's been able to conquer or do that she wouldn't have otherwise without having had this experience. So hopefully something positive comes out of it. And if she writes that tell all, she'll be able to cash in, baby girl. So I feel like that will really. That'll be worth it. And email me when, when it's out to say we need a book club. Okay. Amazing. Thank you for whoever wrote in. I really appreciate you trusting us with that story. Second confession. Let's do this. Do this, do this. I'd love to share a story about my journey, one that took me from the US To Amsterdam. It's a bit of a roller coaster, but I think it could be really encourag for designers to hear, especially at a time like this. So bear with me. About four years into running my interior design business, I had this idea, one I thought would be amazing. I would open a second office, but this time in Amsterdam. I mean, I had been there a couple of times and loved the city, and it seemed like the perfect opportunity to expand. I was doing well in the States and my firm was established and doing great, but I wanted More. So I packed up, moved across the world, and started from scratch. It wasn't as simple as I imagined. Not at all. All the cultural differences, the language barrier, the paperwork, it was a lot. On top of that, I still had my office back in the US to manage. Balancing both was really challenging at first, but let me tell you, running two offices in two different time zones, let alone continents, is no joke. There were times when I didn't know whether it was morning or night. I think the hardest part in the beginning was staying present in both places. In the US I had my established team, but in Amsterdam, I was a newcomer, trying to build relationships while also also trying to navigate this new culture. I had to be on my toes all the time, figuring out what worked, what didn't, and trying to keep the business growing despite the growing pains. Which is like what we're all trying to do, but throw in another office too. Yeah, exactly. To my surprise, it wasn't too hard to find clients. At first, I was worried about keeping both markets happy. One that was used to my design style and the other that wanted something fresh and innovative. But over time, I realized that what worked in Amsterdam could work in the US too. It didn't matter if they were in New York or Amsterdam. They wanted designs with purpose and with feeling. Even with all the initial stress and newness of everything at the same time, there was something so amazing and refreshing about it too. The US office was steady and reliable, and that allowed me to explore new areas of creativity. In Amsterdam, I experimented with new designs, explored sustainable practices, and worked with incredible local artisans, which. That is the piece I'm most jealous about. Going to a another market and finding all new people and all new artists and all of that. Amsterdam taught me a whole new level of design. It was modern, yet rooted in so much history. I was learning and meeting incredible new people every day. The thing that saved me is technology. Without it, I don't think I could have kept both offices running smoothly. Virtual design meetings, project management tools, and video calls with my team. It became my lifeline. It took some time to adjust, but it really helped bridge the gap between the two offices and lessen the need for me to be physically present in in both. I still fly back and forth often, but each time I do, I'm filled with so much more inspiration. It wasn't an easy transition by any means. The pressure to not fail and many sleepless nights definitely took its toll on me. And there were moments I felt like I was losing myself. But every time I stepped back, I Saw the bigger picture and this whole new world of possibilities that I had never experienced, and it was so worth it. Been living in Amsterdam for nearly two years and can confidently say my business is stronger than ever. The US office is still thriving, and my Amsterdam office is continuing to grow and become established. I have a great team and understanding clients, which has made it so much easier. If there's one thing I've learned from starting a business in another country, it's this. You have to trust yourself enough to grow and trust your team to handle the day to day. I never thought I could make it work, but I did. Push yourself out of your comfort zone because although it may not ever feel like the right time, it taught me so much and has honestly been one of the most fulfilling things I've ever.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Wow.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah. Which I know that normally the confessions we choose are a little bit not more negative, but just like, we're not picking, like, the positive Universe and Rainbows1. But because this is our last episode of the season, I wanted to sort of close the confessions on a positive note. Also, I, like, personally asked for people to write in about moving their office to another country or starting another branch. And I was very grateful that this person wrote in because this is something I've been thinking about, you know, for myself. I also. Because we were talking before we got on mics, but you moved and have your office in Chicago and you live in another place. So I also thought it was really applicable to sort of what you've done. And I wanted to talk about. You said something really interesting about living in another place from your office, and I just wanted to talk about that a little bit. So, first of all, congratulations to this person. I mean, that is a massive deal. Seriously, massive deal. What a dream to be in Amsterdam. Yeah. I mean, honestly. And I'm hoping to follow in their footsteps. It's really impressive. Elizabeth, what do you. What are your thoughts? What do you think?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Well, I like the time zone thing and the commute gave me instant heartburn. I was like, oh, my.

[Caroline Turner]

Very brave.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right. But, like, here's the thing. When you feel called to do something, like, is that any worse than living, like, an unfulfilled dream? Because I think that can be even and more taxing.

[Caroline Turner]

I love the way you just said that. Yep. I think that's brilliant.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. So I feel like that's not for everybody, but I give so much credit to the person who can acknowledge, like, what it is that they want and then go and make that happen. Like, oh, my God.

[Caroline Turner]

And while it's really difficult, and it would have been a lot easier to just stay and keep on keeping on in the U.S. they took a leap, and I think it's gonna end up, to your point, making them a lot more fulfilled and a bigger life. Like, we always have the opportunity to make our lives bigger than they are now if we want that. And I think it's very admirable.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

The other part of this, when they're describing, like, the complications, all the things that are really fulfilling and worth it usually are hard. And that's why most people don't do it. So, I mean, talk about a story of, like, perseverance.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, owning a business in itself is already really difficult. And then saying, like, I'm gonna grow this without the team that I know and love, and I'm really like, you know, trusting of. That's the piece that when I look down the barrel, I'm. It makes me a little gun shy. But I think that it also probably created a lot of personal growth for her. Like, I know it would for me. Having to stretch yourself and, you know, outside of your comfort zone, do things by yourself that maybe you haven't done since you started your firm. Like, there are certainly things that I lean on them for that I would then have to do myself. And it's. Yeah, it's incredibly admirable. I. I think. Well, first of all, talk to me about moving. Talk to me about why you decided to do that. How has it been? What was your biggest concern? Yeah, just give me a little more color there, if you don't mind.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I mean, who could have ever imagined what Covid was going to be?

[Caroline Turner]

Right?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right.

[Caroline Turner]

I know.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

So that was the. That was. You know, we're in October of 2020. I would have had. Had maybe he was like 13 or 14 months. So I had it a young. Well, he wasn't a baby anymore, but I'm the youngest of four kids. Yeah, My whole family was in Cleveland, which is about a five hour drive from Chicago. And they were all like, you know, in each other's pod or whatever. Like, they would still see each other. And my husband and I were in Chicago in this apartment with this baby. Baby. And while it still was a really sweet time, I felt like, oh, I'm doing all of these zoom calls for work in my bedroom. I could literally, like, I don't. I no longer felt like I had to be here.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I saw how well our team was still collaborating remotely, how we were just like, totally making it work. And thriving. And so it just had me sort of rethink. Think. My husband is from Chicago. And he had said to me, you know, the only reason why we're still here is because of work for you. And I was like, what? Really? So we made. And I thought for sure it was career suicide. I was like, who's gonna hire me now that I'm not here? So much ego in that statement of, like, well, I have to be here. And guess what?

[Caroline Turner]

It's all about me.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Heard me say, yeah, like, we already knew that, but how can we make it about me? So it called on a lot of my team to show up. And, like, we had all these sort of conversations around, how are we going to make this work? And I was still traveling back and forth, and we've really just come up with a good routine. And I got pregnant with my second when we moved back. And so I never really felt good. Good enough, like, physically, because I was always so sick when I was pregnant to really try to develop a client base in this area. So, like, we. While we're working on projects across the country, nothing has come up in Cleveland yet. And so I still really think of Chicago as, like, the home base.

[Caroline Turner]

Sure.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

For us. So it's not like, I also have an office here, which I think would really add another layer of complexity that, as I'm listening to this confession, thinking, like, holy shit.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Two whole offices.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think that is. And, you know, it's interesting because to your point, you're working all over the country. So are we. But I do think that, like, living somewhere that's not your main home office and then. But still being the face of the business, still having to fly, all of that. What was the thing that you didn't realize would be a challenge, but has been a challenge, I would say what.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I have actually found to be more of a blessing. Nothing. I. I thought by not being there, there was like, you have this notion that you're the one with, like, the hole in the dam keeping it all together. And guess what? That. That's not true. So that was incredible. Secondly, I always say I'm a recovering workaholic, and I feel like I. I'm very intentional about the meetings and. And the trips and becoming more so as it goes on. Because spending time away from your family has a cost to it.

[Caroline Turner]

Absolutely.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

And that, I mean, so, like, again, I'm only able to do that because my husband's a rock star. And it's just like, go, do you. Like, I've got this we have a great nanny, we have family.

[Caroline Turner]

Amazing. The village is important.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yes. It's like. It's more than. Than I even knew, like, needed to happen, so.

[Caroline Turner]

Wow. That's lovely. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I think the biggest challenge, let's say, is managing my own energy and making sure that, like, I'm taking care of myself enough where I'm not, like, getting on a plane and then I'm getting.

[Caroline Turner]

Sick, and then it's like running yourself down and you create a cycle and the whole thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That's like. I just came back from deco off in Paris in January, was gone for five days, came home, I had strep and the flu, and I was just like. Like, that sucked.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

That sucked.

[Caroline Turner]

Because you try to take some time and then you get sick, and then you're on the back foot for, like, three weeks and there's nothing worse. Oh, my God.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah.

[Caroline Turner]

Thank you for explaining that.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

You bet.

[Caroline Turner]

I find it admirable and cool that you took that risk and it's worked out. I'm. That's great. Penance. I don't really even know if this applies. I know, but I would say. Well, you say penance is good. Sometimes it's good. Yeah. I would say this person needs to treat themselves to, like, either a staycation if they don't want to travel, or a little. I mean, you're in Europe, so just hop on a train and, like, go somewhere fab for the weekend and really, like, reflect on what you've accomplished, because it is very, very admirable and I think something that deserves to be celebrated.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I totally agree. I also think she needs to. Or they need to send snacks or donuts to her team in New York.

[Caroline Turner]

Yep. Because I think that's really smart.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

While she is the one who's made the decision, like, so many people are likely out there supporting her, making this dream happen to. So let's get them some snacks.

[Caroline Turner]

Celebrate the home team in the best way possible, because they're the ones that made it doable. At least I know that would be the case for me. They would be the only reason I could ever do that. We're going to close out with some quick questions. How do you best support your team and business while still making personal decisions for yourself? Which is really what we were just talking about.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I think a lot of that has to do with empowering them to make a decision. You know, I have, um. I've often thought, like, you're able to debut someone who's in a senior role once you guys have had enough Time to kind of understand decision making processes. And sometimes I'll say, hey, that's not the decision that I would have made. So tell me, like, how you got to that place and then let's understand. Because oftentimes it's about the intention behind it. And guess what? Sometimes their decision was better than the one that I would have made too.

[Caroline Turner]

Yes. That's something that I'm dealing with too, is like, unless they're making the same exact decision as me in my brain, it automatically classifies it as wrong. That's not true, though. It's what I would have, not what I would have done. But it doesn't mean it's wrong. Yeah.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

When we're talking about, like building trust with clients, I think that also comes within your team so that they feel supported by me. And I think that allows for the ability to say, hey, you know what? This person's really, really got this.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think that is lovely. What is one thing you wish people wanting to enter our industry new that.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

It'S not as stuffy as it seems?

[Caroline Turner]

I think that's a great one.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. I think there are a lot of people out there who. And you know, I think we're guilty of this too. It's like, it's this very, like, polished, pretty, beautiful portfolio. Yeah. And like, we are goofy. And I like, want your authentic self to come and work with me. Unless you're like, too weird. I don't know.

[Caroline Turner]

I mean, there's a balance. There's a balance, obviously.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Yeah. Like, so long as you get your work done, you can be as goofy as you want to be.

[Caroline Turner]

Yeah, I think that is so true. I also think it has to do with, like, in history. For a long time it was like housewives were decorators and they were very, like, buttoned up and. And then women weren't taken as seriously, so we had to be like, really serious because weren't seen as like a real career. And I think now it's finally seen as like, these are real businesses, these are real jobs, so we can show our personality a little bit more. Like, when I started my firm, my branding was so traditional and very polished, very mature. And I was 24. I did not need to be doing that. But the reason I did was cause I was 24, I needed people to take me seriously.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Right, so you, like, overcompensated.

[Caroline Turner]

Exactly.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

For like the age. Yeah, I get that.

[Caroline Turner]

And I think that that piece of it that we. We're goofier than like, we. Than we seem. And I think the Industry in general, like, there's more room for fun and silliness than it seems like there would be. There would be. There would be. We are gonna close out with some things that made you feel this week. So CTI's tagline is Interiors that make you feel. What is one thing that made you feel recently? It doesn't have to be design related unless you just want it to be.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

My son, we found out he had, like, a peanut allergy. Cashews, walnuts. This was about three years ago. We started to do something called oral immunotherapy. And so he is. We're like, microdosing him. So he had to get blood work done over the weekend. And he was really concerned about. About it. And we took him and he was so brave. And he looked at me and he's like, mom, I worked really hard and I didn't. I didn't cry.

[Caroline Turner]

Stop, that's gonna make me cry.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

He's five years old and he was able to recognize that, like, he did something really hard. Yeah. And it wasn't like, don't cry.

[Caroline Turner]

No, of course, of course. Yeah. He himself was like, I worked really hard. That's so sweet.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

I was so. I was d. And then my. My daughter, who is wild, she's three, all she asks is to watch dua lipa videos on YouTube and she'll dance in front of the mirror and say, mama adua lipa.

[Caroline Turner]

Of all. You convinced me to have pins. I was not expecting that. That's amazing. That's the best thing you could have said. My. It's so funny. Oh, that's amazing.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Wild. She had, like, fake nails on and lipstick, and I was just like, what?

[Caroline Turner]

How are you dreaming?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

You go, girl. Yes. Yes.

[Caroline Turner]

Oh, my God. That's so funny. Thank you. That was such a good giggle. Okay, well, seriously, thank you for being here. This has been so fun. So fun, so fun.

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Loved it. Loved being with with you guys.

[Caroline Turner]

Okay, Elizabeth, where can we find you? Where can we find your work?

[Elizabeth Krueger]

Check out our website, Elizabeth Krueger design.com. on Instagram, it's Elizabeth.Krueger.design and then one extra little plug. Check out our furniture and accessories [e-mail] that's O P A M E. Thank you, Collective Amazing.

[Caroline Turner]

We are all gonna check that out. Thank you so much. I have had the best time. And to all of you, thank you so much for listening. I am grateful as always. Unfortunately, this is our last episode of the season. We will have one more. That's best of I know. I can't believe it. It's flown by. But we will be back for season two sooner than you think, so don't even worry. And if you have stories, questions, concerns, write in during the hiatus and we'll work on getting you guys on the show. Please rate, review, subscribe all the things, and until next season, peace be with you. Bye.