Conflicted Revisited: Spying for Saudi

Podcast: CONFLICTED
Date: February 24, 2026
Hosts: Aimen Dean (ex-Al Qaeda turned MI6 spy), Thomas Small (former monk, filmmaker)

Episode Overview

In this captivating “revisited” episode from Season Three, Aimen Dean and Thomas Small offer a sweeping and deeply personal look at the origins of the modern Saudi state, the intricacies of global spycraft, and the enduring impacts of ideology and power politics in the Middle East. Tying together first-hand experience and scholarly insight, the conversation traces the roots of Saudi Arabia’s identity and its entanglement with both British and American interests, explores the often-misunderstood nature of Sharia justice, and builds to a nuanced, inside account of the infamous murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. The episode reframes “clash of civilizations” as a lens for understanding both the region’s history and the present-day struggle for reform, justice, and control.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of the Saudi State and Family Histories

[05:33]

• The episode sets out to explore the transition of power in Arabia from British to American hands, focusing on the Cold War backdrop.
• Aimen’s family history is intertwined with these events; his grandfather served as head of police in British-controlled Iraq and later moved to Bahrain (then a British protectorate).
• The family's move to Saudi Arabia coincided with the kingdom’s foundation in 1932, offering a unique “insider” perspective.

St. John Philby’s Role

[09:16]

• St. John Philby (“Sheikh Abdullah Philby” to the Saudis) emerges as a pivotal figure—British agent-turned-advisor to King Abdulaziz (Ibn Saud).
• Philby, though a British agent, encouraged King Abdulaziz to award oil concessions to American—not British—interests, arguably hastening the decline of British imperial power in the region.

Notable Quote:

“It doesn't sound right that an agent of the British Empire delivered a blow to the British Empire. But he was the reason why King Abdulaziz… decided, based on Sheikh Abdallah Filbi’s advice, to instead grant the [oil] rights to the Americans.” — Aimen [15:11]

2. Myth, Identity, and the “Prayer of Abraham”

[16:16]

• The religious underpinnings of Arabian identity are unpacked through the story of Abraham, Hagar, and Ishmael, blending biblical and Qur’anic traditions.
• The miraculous emergence of water (the Zamzam well) in Mecca becomes a cornerstone of Saudi self-identity.

Notable Quote:

“Oil, that is the prayer of Abraham. Gold, phosphate, bauxite, silver, gas—this is the prayer of Abraham. This is how he blessed this land.” — Aimen [21:20]

3. Oil, Geopolitics, and American Influence

[22:01]

• Aramco’s establishment marked the beginning of U.S. influence in the kingdom; this was not simply an economic relationship but seeded a complex cultural and political exchange.
• Aimen recalls the presence of American/Western families and the Americanization of schools in Eastern Saudi Arabia, underscoring the region’s unique cultural blend.

Notable Quote:

“If an American walked into [my school], ignoring the dress code, you’d think you are in an American [school]—there are basketball courts, locker rooms, and all of these things.” — Aimen [29:13]

4. Sharia Law, Justice, and Cultural Dissonance

[30:55]

• The hosts confront Western perceptions of Sharia law, drawing on Aimen’s childhood experience witnessing public executions in Saudi Arabia.
• Aimen explains the rationale for public executions—not as sadistic spectacle but as a communal process where forgiveness is actively sought.

Notable Quotes:

“The reason why there are public executions… is for the people to encourage and to, really, almost beg the family of the victims to forgive.” — Aimen [33:36]
“[Sharia] focuses a lot on restitution for the victim's family… the family are given control over the process. If they want justice, they can get it. If they want to forgive, they can.” — Aimen [35:24]

A Remarkable Story of Forgiveness

[39:13]

• The moving story of Aimen’s cleric and mentor, who, after his own son was murdered, immediately forgave the killer, upholding values he had long taught.

Notable Quote:

“I spent the past 25 years convincing families of murdered people to forgive the murderers… It would be extremely hypocritical of me now [not to forgive].” — Aimen quoting the cleric [39:49]

5. The Muslim Brotherhood, the Arab Spring, and Internal Saudi Debates

[44:00]

• The discussion shifts to the ideological balancing act within Saudi governance—between Islamists (notably the Muslim Brotherhood) and liberal reformers.
• Events of 2013 become the tipping point: after the military-backed coup in Egypt deposed Mohamed Morsi (a Muslim Brotherhood leader), Saudi decision-makers (under King Abdullah) committed to severing ties with the Brotherhood.

Notable Quote:

“We thought the Muslim Brotherhood rule in Egypt would be moderate… The level of extremist infiltration and jihadist congregation there… was alarming for everyone, including the Saudis and myself.” — Aimen [51:18]

6. Jamal Khashoggi: Career, Ideology, and the Istanbul Murder

[52:54] – [74:11]

Who Was Jamal Khashoggi?

• Born into an elite family, his journalism followed and influenced political developments from the Afghan jihad to internal reform debates in the Saudi royal court.
• His leanings towards the Muslim Brotherhood and eventual opposition to the regime positioned him as both an insider and a dissident.

Notable Quotes:

“He… spoke with an air of authority and understanding and background knowledge which made him sometimes come across as arrogant. But… if I was Jamal, I would be arrogant a little bit too.” — Aimen [55:54]
“[He] had a lingering romantic vision of Osama bin Laden… ‘If only we engaged with him, we could have saved him from those Egyptians, brought him back to Saudi Arabia for rehabilitation.’” — Aimen [58:18]

The Istanbul Consulate Incident

• Saudi government’s perspective: They feared Khashoggi would leak sensitive information to adversaries (Turkey, Qatar). Failed attempts to draw him back by promises of amnesty were followed by the ill-fated Istanbul operation.
• Aimen’s insider account: The plan, as per precedent, was to kidnap Khashoggi, not assassinate him. Deployment of a bone saw and a forensic specialist was standard for prior extractions—killings or deaths in the process were to be covered up, not initiated.
• The fatal error: Khashoggi resisted, excessive sedatives resulted in cardiac arrest, and in panic, his body was dismembered—leading to a disastrous cover-up and international scandal.

Notable Quotes:

“If we wanted him dead… why send our own people to be caught on cameras to do the deed on our own soil there in Istanbul…? We could have hired [mafias] for $200,000.” — Aimen [67:25]
“What was supposed to be a straightforward medical evacuation kidnapping turned into a gruesome murder and an international scandal…” — Aimen [72:50]

Aftermath: Justice — Saudi Style

• The family of Jamal Khashoggi was given the option to forgive or demand execution (“blood money” system).
• Eventually, they forgave, reportedly after significant restitution (monetary compensation, public apology).

Notable Quotes:

“Once the blood money is paid and accepted by the family, then by Saudi standard… justice has been served.” — Aimen [78:04]
“In the Western mindset… any Western listener… will think this is a farce… But from the Saudi perspective, it’s no different than any other case.” — Aimen [78:22]

Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “It doesn't sound right that an agent of the British Empire delivered a blow to the British Empire...” — Aimen [15:11]
• “Oil, that is the prayer of Abraham… this is how he blessed this land.” — Aimen [21:20]
• “The reason why there are public executions... is almost for the people to encourage... the family of the victims to forgive.” — Aimen [33:36]
• Cleric forgives his own son’s killer: “It would be extremely hypocritical of me now [not to forgive].” — Aimen [39:49]
• On Khashoggi, dissent, and the regime: “He was worried [Khashoggi] might have done that—leak information—and as a result the Saudis were extremely annoyed with him.” — Aimen [61:35]
• On the failed operation: “What was supposed to be a straightforward medical evacuation kidnapping turned into a gruesome murder and an international scandal.” — Aimen [72:50]
• On sharia and justice: “Once the blood money is paid and accepted by the family… justice has been served.” — Aimen [78:04]

Important Timestamps

• [05:33] – Saudi state formation and British/American intrigue
• [15:11] – British to American shift in oil; Philby’s fateful advice
• [21:20] – “Prayer of Abraham” and Saudi self-identity
• [29:13] – Aramco, cultural crossover, and Americanization in Saudi schooling
• [33:36] – Sharia law, public executions, and the social purpose of forgiveness
• [39:49] – Imam’s personal forgiveness story
• [46:11] – Arab Spring for Saudi policy, severance from the Muslim Brotherhood
• [52:54]–[62:07] – Khashoggi’s background, rise, and falling out with the regime
• [64:17]–[74:11] – Istanbul consulate operation, motives, how the incident unfolded, and its aftermath
• [78:04] – Khashoggi case, Saudi justice, and the meaning of restitution

Tone & Language

• The conversation blends informality, wit, and gravity. Aimen delivers detailed first-person anecdotes, offering blunt, sometimes darkly humorous, and always candid commentary.
• Thomas probes with curiosity, adding historical context and Western perspective, guiding listeners through complex terrain.

For New Listeners

If you want a first-hand, deeply layered yet accessible account of how Saudi Arabia became a geopolitical powerhouse, why its power plays matter, and how its approach to justice and political dissent diverges from Western expectations (and why this matters for global politics), this episode is essential listening.

[End of Summary]