A vaccine skeptic is leading public health in the US. Today, RFK Jr. faced questions

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Consider This from NPR

Episode: "A vaccine skeptic is leading public health in the US. Today, RFK Jr. faced questions"
Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Ari Shapiro
Guests/Reporters: Selena Simmons Duffin, Ping Huang, Dr. Elizabeth Soda, Federal and State Health Officials, U.S. Senators.

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Overview: Main Theme

This episode examines the fallout and national response to Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.—a prominent vaccine skeptic—testifying before the Senate about recent changes to U.S. vaccine policy. The episode explores bipartisan criticism in Congress, dissent among federal public health workers, state-level pushback, and the broad consequences for vaccine access and public trust.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Senate Testimony: Bipartisan Fireworks

• Setting: RFK Jr. faces three hours of intense questioning from senators across party lines about his leadership and vaccine policy.
• Criticism from Both Sides: Senators express frustration over his vaccine skepticism and recent policy shifts.
  • Notable Quote:
    “I'm asking the questions for Mr. Kennedy on behalf of parents and schools and, and teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so much better than your leadership.”
    — Sen. Michael Bennett (D-CO) [00:27]
• Federal Public Health Worker Backlash:
  • Over 1,000 current and former federal health employees have signed a letter calling for Kennedy to resign.
  • Dr. Elizabeth Soda (former CDC physician) resigned in protest:
    • "I swore an oath. Even if I have resigned, I'm going to hold by that oath for the rest of my life. And that is to speak out when I believe the Constitution and the American people are in jeopardy." [00:48]
    • "I think his stance on vaccines is one very clear example of how he is politicizing the… important public health action of vaccines, and it's going to have very serious consequences for all Americans at this point." [01:16]

2. CDC Turmoil and Conflicting Accounts

• CDC Leadership Shakeup:
  • RFK Jr. confirmed he fired newly confirmed CDC Director Susan Menarez over what he alleges was a matter of trust, not specifically over refusing changes to the childhood vaccine schedule.
  • "No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no." — RFK Jr. [03:56]
  • The claim drew incredulous reactions in the hearing: "You can hear Warren and others in the room respond to that with ‘what?’” — Selena Simmons Duffin [04:14]

3. Vaccine Policy: Contradictions and Real-World Effects

• Operation Warp Speed:

  • Kennedy praised Trump’s Operation Warp Speed but was confronted on his efforts that have restricted vaccine access.
  • Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
    • “It also surprises me because you’ve canceled or HHS did but apparently under your direction, $500 million in contracts using the MRNA vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed.” [05:32]
  • Kennedy’s Stance:
    • Refused to acknowledge that limiting FDA approval for COVID-19 boosters restricts access or that COVID vaccines saved millions.

• Broken Promises:

  • "Cassidy supports vaccines. ... But Kennedy has now gone and broken a lot of those promises and Cassidy has been reticent to publicly hold him to account." — Selena Simmons Duffin [06:00]

• Trump's Support:

  • Despite pressure, President Trump “still supports him and is giving him leeway to upend federal health policy in all sorts of different ways.” [06:42]

4. States Respond: Patchwork Vaccine Policy Emerges

• West Coast Alliance:

  • Washington, Oregon, and California band together to independently review vaccine data and make their own recommendations in light of federal instability.
    • Dennis Worsham (WA Health Secretary):
      • “We’re seeing something happen that we’re concerned, and we’re not going to wait to see how it plays out.” [07:23]
  • Dr. Erica Pan (CA Department of Public Health Director):
    • “Vaccines are one of the most important public health interventions in our lifetimes after sanitation… we want to make sure we continue to do that.” [08:11]

• State Actions:

  • New Mexico: Issues public health orders to maintain broad vaccine availability.
    • Gina DeBlassi (NM Health Secretary):
      • “We want to make it available for those that are in high risk populations or those that are caring for individuals that are in that high risk group.” [09:06]
  • Massachusetts: Requires insurers to cover all state-recommended vaccines.
  • Florida: Moves to end all vaccine mandates.
    • Joseph Latapo (FL Surgeon General):
      • “Who am I as a government…to tell you what you should put in your body?” [09:41]
      • Referred to COVID vaccines as “poison” and compared mandates to slavery.

• Legal and Practical Confusion:

  • Many state laws tied to CDC recommendations, creating new confusion.
    • Dr. Susan Consagra:
      • “What we’re seeing now is an amplification of [state-to-state] variation.” [10:13]
  • Consumers advised to check with trusted providers for the latest, as access and policy may now vary sharply by state.
    • “Talk to your provider, get your information from a trusted source around vaccines and make sure you understand where to go and your insurance coverage as well.” — Dr. Susan Consagra [10:25]

• Upcoming Vote:

  • The CDC’s newly restructured advisory committee will meet soon to vote on new recommendations, watched closely by state health officials. [10:37]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Sen. Michael Bennett: “...teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so much better than your leadership.” [00:27]
• Dr. Elizabeth Soda: “I swore an oath. Even if I have resigned, I’m going to hold by that oath for the rest of my life. And that is to speak out when I believe the Constitution and the American people are in jeopardy.” [00:48]
• Sen. Elizabeth Warren: incredulous reaction: “What?” [04:14]
• Sen. Bill Cassidy: “An accomplishment that I think President Trump should get a Nobel Prize for.” [05:53]
• Dr. Erica Pan: “Vaccines are one of the most important public health interventions in our lifetimes after sanitation, and they have saved, you know, millions of lives.” [08:11]
• Joseph Latapo: “Who am I as a government or… tell you what you should put in your body?” [09:41]
• Dr. Susan Consagra: “What we're seeing now is an amplification of that [state to state variation].” [10:13]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:00-01:31] — Senate hearing, bipartisan criticism, public health resignation letter
• [02:51-04:25] — Recap of hearing; CDC director firing and conflicting explanations
• [04:25-06:56] — Vaccine policy debate, Operation Warp Speed, Kennedy’s broken promises
• [07:00-10:52] — State-level responses, new vaccine alliances, diverging policies, rising consumer confusion

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Tone and Style

The episode is urgent, skeptical, and forthright, channeling both the frustration of policymakers and the anxiety of public health experts over RFK Jr.’s leadership and the significant uncertainty now affecting vaccine access and policy across America.

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For listeners and readers seeking clarity on current vaccine policy, this episode underscores just how much has changed under RFK Jr.—and how those changes are prompting resistance in Congress, among health professionals, and in state governments nationwide.

Transcript

[Ari Shapiro]

It was a tense three hours as Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Testified before a Senate committee. Criticism came from senators on both sides of the aisle with a particular focus on vaccine policy.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

You promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. I would say, effectively, we're denying people vaccine. I get it wrong. I'm asking the questions for Mr. Kennedy on behalf of parents and schools and, and teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so much better than your leadership.

[Ari Shapiro]

That was Republican John Barrasso of Wyoming, Republican Thom Tillis of North Carolina, and Democrat Michael Bennett of Colorado. Just a taste of the hearing today. Inside the public health community, federal workers are also speaking out.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

I swore an oath. Even if I have resigned, I'm going to hold by that oath for the rest of my life. And that is to speak out when I believe the the Constitution and the American people are in Jeopardy.

[Ari Shapiro]

That's Dr. Elizabeth Soda. She's one of more than 1,000 current and former federal health workers who signed a letter urging Health Secretary Kennedy to resign. She was a physician with the CDC's National center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Diseases until her resignation earlier this week.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

I think his stance on vaccines is one very clear example of how he is politicizing the, the important public health action of vaccines, and it's going to have very serious consequences for all Americans at this point.

[Ari Shapiro]

Consider this, a vaccine skeptic is in charge of the nation's health care system. He's using that position to radically change vaccine policy. How might Congress and individual states step in? From npr, I'm Ari Shapiro.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

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[Ari Shapiro]

It's Consider this from npr. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy testified in the Senate and as expected, the hearing was fiery.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

You're making things up to scare People, and it's a lie. With respect, I do not think I'm the one making things right now, Senator.

[Ari Shapiro]

That exchange was with Senator Maggie Hassan, Democrat of New Hampshire. Kennedy faced questions from both Democrats and Republicans, especially about his vaccine policies. NPR health policy correspondent Selena Simmons Duffin watched the hearing closely. Hi, Selena.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Hi, Ari.

[Ari Shapiro]

There's been chaos recently at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, including the firing of the recently confirmed CDC director. So what did we learn about that today?

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Well, right as the hearing was beginning, Susan Menarez, the CDC director who was fired, published an op ed in the Wall Street Journal. And this is just a few days after Kennedy published his own op ed there. Kennedy in the hearing confirmed that he asked her to fire career CDC scientists. And Menara's refused, but he also contradicted her account. Here is Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat from Massachusetts.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

Medicaid will tell head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule that she had to resign. No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said no.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

You can hear Warren and others in the room respond to that with what? He went on to accuse Menara's of lying. I asked Menars attorney if she had any response to this version of events, but I haven't heard back.

[Ari Shapiro]

Vaccines came up a bit in that clip of tape you just played in the. They were a major topic of the hearing. What was discussed?

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Yeah. So one really interesting line of questioning from both sides of the aisle was about Operation Warp Speed. President Trump has described this as one of his greatest accomplishments. It involved the government and private companies working together to bring a new vaccine to market for this emerging virus in record time. Kennedy praised Trump throughout the hearing, but he struggled to square that praise with his recent actions as secretary.

[Ari Shapiro]

Give us an example. What do you mean?

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Well, this year, because the FDA's approval of the COVID 19 booster limits who can get it, there's all this confusion about how the fall rollout is going to go. Kennedy in the hearing refused to acknowledge that that does in effect, limit who has access to the vaccines. And he also refused to concede that Covid vaccines saved millions of lives, which is something there's scientific consensus about. Here is an exchange with Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican of Louisiana. He's a physician and he told Kennedy it surprised him that here he was praising Operation Warp Speed after working as an attorney to restrict access to that vaccine.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

It also surprises me because you've canceled or HHS did But apparently under your direction, $500 million in contracts using the MRNA vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed. Again, an accomplishment that I think President Trump should get a Nobel Prize for.

[Ari Shapiro]

Now, Selina, that's striking because Senator Cassidy cast one of the key votes to confirm Kennedy as health secretary.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Yeah, that's right. But that's only after Kennedy made lots of promises not to drastically change federal vaccine policy. Cassidy supports vaccines. He's a physician. He said he's seen how they spare people suffering and save lives. But Kennedy has now gone and broken a lot of those promises and Cassidy has been reticent to publicly hold him to account. Cassidy and several other Republican senators in this hearing were critical of Kennedy's anti vaccine posture, but they didn't go so far as to join their Democratic colleagues in calling for him to resign.

[Ari Shapiro]

But apart from Congress, we saw this letter yesterday signed by more than 1,000 HHS employees and public health organizations calling for Kennedy's resignation. Any news on that front?

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

There are no signs that Kennedy plans to resign. The question is whether President Trump will continue to back him. So far it seems like, yes, Trump still supports him and is giving him leeway to upend federal health policy in all sorts of different ways.

[Ari Shapiro]

NPR's Selena Simmons Duffin, thank you.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

You're welcome.

[Ari Shapiro]

Now, in response to concerns over federal leadership, some states are setting up their own coronavirus vaccine policies. That means your ability to get a Covid shot this fall might depend on where you live. NPR's Ping Huang has more.

[Ping Huang]

Washington State is banding together with its neighbors to create a West coast health alliance. Dennis Worsham, Washington's health secretary, says it's a preemptive move.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

We're seeing something happen that we're concerned and we're not going to wait to see how it plays out.

[Ping Huang]

Those concerns include staff and budget cuts at federal health agencies, the firing of prominent doctors from vaccine advisory committees, and the firing of the new director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The tipping point came last week where Sham says when the Food and Drug Administration put limits on who's eligible for the the fall Covid shot.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

We as an alliance will work together to review the data that is being put out in order to make recommendations for the people here in the state of Washington, Oregon and California.

[Ping Huang]

Dr. Erica Pon is director of the California Department of Public Health.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

I'm sad that we are in this.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

Place that we have to do this.

[Ping Huang]

But the reason they're doing it, she says, is that vaccines do a great job of keeping people Healthy vaccines are.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

One of the most important public health interventions in our lifetimes after sanitation, and they have saved, you know, millions of lives. And we want to make sure we continue to do that.

[Ping Huang]

And the advice from the federal government under Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is starting to diverge from those of professional medical groups.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

We do have concerns that access and or recommendations for safe and effective vaccines could change from the federal level.

[Ping Huang]

The CDC's current vaccine advisory Committee has not yet weighed in on who should get Covid vaccines this fall in New Mexico. The delay has prompted Gina DeBlassi, the cabinet secretary for health, to issue a public health order to make the vaccines widely available at pharmacies.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

The vaccines are anticipated to be received in the state this month. We just want to make sure that we're ready to go and able to.

[Ping Huang]

Serve New Mexicans, De Blassi says the demand has been highest for those 65 and up, but we want to make.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

It available for those that are in high risk populations or those that are caring for individuals that are in that high risk group.

[Ping Huang]

Massachusetts, which is leading a public health collaboration in the Northeast, has announced that it's requiring insurers to cover vaccines the state recommends. While states with Democratic governors have been zigging to protect vaccine access, the Republican state of Florida has zagged. Yesterday at a press conference, Florida Surgeon General Joseph Latapo called Covid vaccines poison and said requiring them echoes slavery.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

Who am I as a government or.

[Ari Shapiro]

Anyone else, or who am I as a man standing here now to tell you what you should put in your body?

[Ping Huang]

Latapo announced that Florida will be working to end all vaccine mandates in the state. His office did not respond to an interview request from NPR. Dr. Susan Consagra with the association of State and Territorial Health Officials, says many state laws are tied to what the CDC's advisory committee recommends.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

While there's always been some variation state.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

By state in vaccine laws, what we're.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Seeing now is an amplification of that.

[Ping Huang]

Given the confusion and instability on the federal level, some states are looking to other for their vaccine recommendations. Consagra says this can be confusing for consumers.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Talk to your provider, get your information.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

From a trusted source around vaccines and.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

You know, make sure you understand where to go and your insurance coverage as well.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

As we navigate this changing landscape.

[Ping Huang]

Later this month, state health officials will be watching closely when the CDC's revamped vaccine advisory committee meets to vote on recommendations for Covid, hepatitis B and some other vaccines. Ping Huang, NPR News.

[Ari Shapiro]

This episode was produced by Katherine Fink. Mark Rivers and Manuela Lopez Restrepo, with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by Janaki Mehta, Diane Weber and Scott Hensley. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Ari Shapiro.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Hey, it's Rachel Martin.

[Ping Huang]

I'm the host of Wild Card from npr.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

For a lot of my years as.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

A radio host, silence sort of made me nervous. That pause before an answer. Answer, because you don't know what's going on on the other side of the mic. But these days, I love it. Oh, gosh. Whoa. Give me a minute. Yeah, yeah. Think.

[Selena Simmons Duffin]

Listen to the Wild Card podcast only from npr.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

On the TED Radio Hour podcast, tech CEO Victor Riparbelli says that in the future, AI avatars will be teaching our kids.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

Your kids. Kids may not read and write.

[Ari Shapiro]

They'll be watching and listening instead of hey there, learners.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

I'm Professor Cadence Hartman.

[Various Senators (e.g., John Barrasso, Thom Tillis, Michael Bennett, Maggie Hassan, Elizabeth Warren, Bill Cassidy)]

I promise I got some interesting stuff, and it's going to take less than two minutes for you.

[Dr. Elizabeth Soda]

How AI is shaping education? Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.