Big law in Trump's crosshairs

Summary

Consider This from NPR: "Big Law in Trump's Crosshairs"

Release Date: April 12, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Ryan Lucas (NPR's Justice Correspondent), Lourdes Rosado (President and General Counsel of Latino Justice PRLDEF)

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1. Introduction: Executive Orders Targeting Law Firms

The episode opens with Scott Detrow outlining a significant move by President Donald Trump. On a tumultuous Wednesday marked by market instability and a looming trade war, Trump signed an executive order [00:00] targeting major law firms, a strategy unrelated to tariffs. The specific law firm initially singled out was Sussman Godfrey, but this action was part of a broader campaign against multiple firms.

2. Accusations Against Law Firms

Ryan Lucas elaborates on the nature of Trump's accusations [00:09]. The administration claims these firms engaged in actions detrimental to American interests. For instance, Sussman Godfrey represented Dominion Voting Systems, a company that secured a substantial settlement from Fox News over false claims about the 2020 election [00:46]. Other targeted firms had connections to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign or played roles in the Mueller investigation into alleged ties between Trump's associates and Russia [00:46].

Ryan Lucas asserts, "These are firms that have been basically done things that are against American interests that harm the United States" [00:25], highlighting the administration's perspective on why these firms are being targeted.

3. Law Firms' Responses: Lawsuits vs. Deals

The episode delves into the varied reactions from the affected law firms. While some, like Sussman Godfrey, have filed lawsuits to block the executive orders [01:15], others have opted to cut deals with the Trump administration. On a Friday prior to the episode's release, Trump announced that five additional firms agreed to provide hundreds of millions of dollars in pro bono work to causes supported by his administration [01:17].

Ryan Lucas discusses the implications of these deals:

"Now, eight other firms have since followed suit, including five, as I mentioned just on Friday. But what this all has done... is really kind of expose a divide within big law."

This divide raises concerns about the collective ability of the legal profession to resist what many view as an assault on their independence and ethical obligations.

4. Impact on the American Legal System

The executive orders have far-reaching consequences for the targeted firms. Ryan Lucas explains that these orders [04:31] suspend security clearances, bar access to government buildings, terminate government contracts, and reassess existing client-government relationships [04:31].

Lourdes Rosado underscores the severity:

"The administration's attacks on big law firms really create a climate of fear that could deter firms from taking on these very politically sensitive, yes, pro bono cases that are challenging unconstitutional actions right now." [03:35]

This chilling effect threatens to reduce the number of legal challenges to potentially unconstitutional government actions, undermining the foundational checks and balances of the U.S. legal system.

5. Precedent and Legal Community Reactions

The actions taken by Trump are unprecedented in their direct targeting of private law firms from the Oval Office. Ryan Lucas notes:

"Everyone who I spoke to said that this is just, this is unprecedented. We'd never seen something like this come out of the Oval Office." [06:15]

Legal experts and constitutional law professors agree that these executive orders undermine the integrity of the legal profession and set a dangerous precedent for political interference in legal matters [06:15].

6. Divisions Within Big Law Firms

A notable storyline is the internal divide among big law firms on how to respond. While some firms choose to challenge the executive orders through lawsuits, others decide to cut deals to protect their operations [07:03]. For example, Paul Weiss, a prestigious New York-based firm with strong Democratic ties, agreed to provide $40 million in pro bono services [07:12]. This decision sparked outrage and disappointment among observers who felt the firm was capitulating rather than defending the profession's integrity.

Ryan Lucas reflects on this schism:

"What sets this apart from some of that other stuff is this is directed from the Oval Office... using the power of the presidency to punish them." [09:32]

The fragmentation raises questions about the future solidarity of the legal profession in the face of political pressures.

7. Broader Context and Ongoing Challenges

Detrow and Lucas place these executive orders within a broader context of ongoing attacks on the justice system. This includes threats against federal judges, calls to impeach them, and public disparagement of judicial rulings [09:27].

Ryan Lucas emphasizes that this is not an isolated incident but part of a systemic effort to undermine the judiciary and legal institutions [10:07].

8. Personal Insights from Ryan Lucas

Drawing from his extensive experience, including his tenure as a foreign correspondent, Ryan Lucas discusses the challenges of reporting on such a rapidly evolving and complex legal battle [10:07]. He likens his current role to translating the intricacies of the U.S. justice system for the public, highlighting the importance of making sense of "arcane judicial procedures" for everyday listeners [11:02].

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Conclusion

"Big Law in Trump's Crosshairs" provides a comprehensive exploration of the Trump administration's unprecedented targeting of major law firms. Through insightful discussions with Ryan Lucas and Lourdes Rosado, the episode highlights the profound implications for the American legal system, the divisions within the legal community, and the potential long-term effects on pro bono work and legal advocacy. The episode underscores the critical need for a united legal front to uphold the integrity and independence of the legal profession amidst increasing political pressures.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Lucas [00:25]: "These are firms that have been basically done things that are against American interests that harm the United States."

• Lourdes Rosado [03:35]: "The administration's attacks on big law firms really create a climate of fear that could deter firms from taking on these very politically sensitive, yes, pro bono cases that are challenging unconstitutional actions right now."

• Ryan Lucas [06:15]: "Everyone who I spoke to said that this is just, this is unprecedented. We'd never seen something like this come out of the Oval Office."

• Ryan Lucas [09:32]: "What sets this apart from some of that other stuff is this is directed from the Oval Office... using the power of the presidency to punish them."

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This summary encapsulates the critical discussions, insights, and conclusions presented in the "Big Law in Trump's Crosshairs" episode, providing a clear and comprehensive overview for those who have not listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

On Wednesday in the Oval Office, as markets reeled and a trade war raged, President Donald Trump signed an executive order that had nothing to do with tariffs.

[Ryan Lucas]

There were some very bad things that happened with these law firms.

[Scott Detrow]

The law firm in question was Sussman Godfrey, but it was only the latest of many to be singled out and targeted by the president.

[Ryan Lucas]

But they don't admit guilt. Remember that? They don't admit guilt.

[Scott Detrow]

The law firms had been guilty of.

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, in the president's telling, these are firms that have been basically done things that are against American interests that harm the United States.

[Scott Detrow]

That is Ryan Lucas, NPR's justice correspondent.

[Ryan Lucas]

If you talk to people on the other side, the goal, however, is quite different. The law firms that are targeted say that the effort here is to intimidate them, to punish them for the clients that they have represented.

[Scott Detrow]

One of the clients that Sussman Godfrey represented, for example, was Dominion Voting Systems, which got a massive settlement from Fox News for its lies about the 2020 election. Other firms had represented Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign or had staff that worked on Robert Mueller's investigation into alleged ties between Trump's orbit and Russia and possible obstruction of justice during Trump's first administration. Now this work has put them in the crosshairs of the president. Some have fought back.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Sussman Godfrey, for instance, has filed a.

[Scott Detrow]

Lawsuit to try and block the order. But others have cut deals. On Friday, Trump announced that five more law firms had reached deals with the administration in order to avoid damaging Existence executive orders. They had agreed to provide hundreds of millions of dollars in pro bono work for causes that Trump supports. Consider this. President Trump is going after law firms that have opposed him in the past. We will ask what it means for the foundations of the American legal system from npr. Scott I'm Scott Detrow.

[NPR]

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[Scott Detrow]

It'S consider this from NPR. Every time there's a new administration in Washington, groups line up to challenge its policies in court. And many of those lawsuits are aided by big law firms offering pro bono work to nonprofits. That has been happening so far during the second Trump administration. But the president's actions targeting law firms is changing that.

[Lourdes Rosado]

The administration's attacks on big law firms really create a climate of fear that could deter firms from taking on these very politically sensitive, yes, pro bono cases that are challenging unconstitutional actions right now.

[Scott Detrow]

That's Lourdes Rosado, the president and general counsel of Latino justice prldef, a New York based civil rights nonprofit.

[Lourdes Rosado]

It really does set a very dangerous precedent of political interference in the legal profession.

[Scott Detrow]

In other words, if law firms pull back on pro bono work, there would probably be fewer challenges to potentially unconstitutional actions by the government down the road. So how does this use of executive power change the landscape of the American legal system? Today for our weekly Reporter's Notebook series, we are going to dive into this evolving story with NPR justice correspondent Ryan Lucas. I started by asking him about the kinds of ramifications these executive orders have on the firms being targeted.

[Ryan Lucas]

What these executive orders do is a couple things. They differ a little bit from executive order to executive order, but the main ones that we've seen suspend all security clearances for employees at the firms bar the firm's employees from access to government buildings government officials end government contracts with the firms if there are any, and also reassess and ultimately terminate contracts that the firm's clients have with the government.

[Lourdes Rosado]

So when firms talk about this having crippling effects on them, they're not wrong. These are serious limitations for a big law firm that's doing a lot of government related work.

[Ryan Lucas]

The firms that have sued over these executive orders have said that if these executive orders are allowed to stay in place, they're essentially a death knell for their firms. If you're a law firm and you can't meet with government attorneys or you can't even go into a government building, how are you supposed to appropriately and zealously advocate on your client's behalf? If you have a criminal client and you want to meet with prosecutors in order to discuss a potential plea deal, you can't do that.

[Lourdes Rosado]

You can't go into the federal building.

[Ryan Lucas]

Can'T go into a federal building. You can't meet with DOJ officials. If you represent a corporate client who wants to have a merger, if you want to go talk to government attorneys about this, you can't do that. And so how can you actively and effectively advocate on your client's behalf if you can't do sort of this basic legwork of the legal profession? And so that means that other clients aren't necessarily going to come to you for business. And it also means that some of the clients that you have may go somewhere else.

[Scott Detrow]

As you talk to people in the.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Legal community, is there any precedent for what President Trump is trying to do here? What are people comparing this to? How are people framing this when you talk to them?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, when the first executive order targeting a law firm came down, that was in late February, and it was against the firm of Covington and Burling, and it was a pretty narrow executive order. But then we got these other executive orders that were far more sweeping. And I talked to a couple of constitutional law professors at the time, and everyone who I spoke to said this is just, this is unprecedented. We'd never seen something like this come out of the Oval Office. We've never seen a president take these sort of actions. And everyone who I've spoken to said that this really does hammer away at, chisel away at the very foundations of how the American legal system is supposed to work.

[Lourdes Rosado]

We haven't even gotten to one of the big storylines in what's going on here, and that's the different ways these big law firms have responded. You talked about several that have filed lawsuits trying to block this, that are fighting back.

[Scott Detrow]

A big storyline here is that several big law firms haven't fought back. They've cut deals with the Trump administration. What agreements are being reached and how.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Are people in those law firms responding when you talk to them?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, actually, there are nine firms at this point, including five just on Friday, that have cut deals with the president to try to either get out from being targeted by an executive order or to avoid the possibility of a punitive executive order. The first firm actually to cut a deal was Paul Weiss, a big New York based firm, very prestigious, largely linked to Democrats. There are a number of former Biden administration and Obama administration officials who work at the firm. And the deal that they cut, the first one, was to provide $40 million worth of pro bono legal services to causes that both the firm and the White House support. And there was a lot of outrage and pushback When Paul Weiss cut this deal, disappointment that a firm this prestig and with deep pockets like Paul Weiss had decided not to stand up for the legal profession in the views of many people, and instead to cut a deal with the administration. Now, eight other firms have since followed suit, including five, as I mentioned just on Friday. But what this all has done, what the President's targeting of law firms has done, is really kind of expose a divide within big law. I remember having conversations with partners in certain law firms where there is a question of whether the legal profession would be able to provide a sort of united front to push back against what universally everyone who I've spoken to has viewed as an assault on the legal profession, an assault on lawyers, because lawyers.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Are being punished for doing lawyerly things.

[Ryan Lucas]

For doing their job. Yes. For representing their clients zealously, which is what this whole system is based on.

[Lourdes Rosado]

You've been in NPR, what, seven or eight years at this point.

[Ryan Lucas]

Yeah.

[Lourdes Rosado]

And over the time that I've known you and worked with you, you have covered a wide range of. Of pretty high wire and pretty tense and at times unprecedented legal stories. You have covered the Mueller investigation. You have covered the House Republican attack on the Mueller investigation. You have covered the aftermath of the January 6 attack on the Capitol. You have covered the sitting president's son, Hunter Biden, being put on federal trial.

[Scott Detrow]

All of these different stories that really.

[Ryan Lucas]

Don'T forget the special counsel investigations into Trump himself.

[Scott Detrow]

Those two.

[Ryan Lucas]

Those two.

[Scott Detrow]

How does this fit into all of those other big stories? Does this feel different?

[Ryan Lucas]

What I would say to that is this is not in a vacuum on its own either. This is part and parcel of the sort of attacks that we're seeing on federal judges, threats against them, online calls from the President and members of his administration to impeach them for rulings that they don't like. I think what sets this apart from some of that other stuff is this is directed from the Oval Office. This is the power of the presidency being used against private actors, essentially accusing them and then judging them guilty of certain things, then using the power of the presidency to punish them.

[Lourdes Rosado]

You had a past life where you were a foreign correspondent. Have you thought about or seen any parallels between the type of stories you covered then and what you're covering right now?

[Ryan Lucas]

So half of my career thus far was as a foreign correspondent in Poland, in Egypt, in Lebanon. It's a very different way of reporting. It's a very different style of reporting. You are focused more on kind of macro level things in trying to explain what's going on. Half a world away to an audience in the US Covering the Justice Department, covering stuff in Washington generally is at a much more micro level. It's a different kind of reporting. It takes a different kind of muscle to do.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Yeah. Does that make it harder in a moment like now where there's potentially a big shift happening? Does that make it harder to kind of realize the big shift is happening when you're, when you're not doing the big sweepy step back and you're doing the moment by moment updates?

[Ryan Lucas]

I think from a bandwidth level it's harder. Yes.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Yeah.

[Ryan Lucas]

Because just the pace of the news right now is, is so intense that it can be very hard to get the daily stuff done and be able to provide the kind of big picture view for people. But I think what's similar in these two, not necessarily in the storylines or in trying to explain stuff. What is similar though, I think is I kind of view my job now as translating a foreign land for people. Because the justice system is very different. It doesn't function how a lot of people think it does. A lot of times people will come to me with questions like, oh, can they do this? Why did this happen? And often it's just like it's kind of an arcane judicial procedure. And so explaining sometimes to people, trying to translate what's going on in this weird judicial system with lawyerly language and trying to translate that into the way that normal people speak and what makes sense to them, I think is a big part of my job.

[Lourdes Rosado]

I remember a moment where you were doing that live on the radio. I was part of that coverage as well. When the Mueller report was released and.

[Scott Detrow]

We were parsing this long legal document.

[Lourdes Rosado]

Live, trying to do that translation in real time. Sometimes we succeeded, sometimes we didn't.

[Ryan Lucas]

That was still have nightmares of that day.

[Scott Detrow]

That was NPR's justice correspondent, Ryan Lucas. This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell. It was edited by Adam Rainey and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenig. It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Ryan Lucas]

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[Lourdes Rosado]

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