Despite talk of peace, Ukraine is still under a barrage of deadly attacks

Summary

Consider This from NPR Episode: Despite Talk of Peace, Ukraine Is Still Under a Barrage of Deadly Attacks Release Date: May 3, 2025

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1. Geopolitical Maneuvering and Peace Negotiations

The episode opens with Don Gonyea highlighting the intense geopolitical struggles surrounding Ukraine. He states, “Over the past few months, Ukraine has been caught in geopolitical jostling at the highest echelons of power” (00:00). This sets the stage for discussions on the high-stakes diplomacy involving world leaders.

Joanna Kakissis underscores a pivotal moment in the Oval Office, describing it as “one of the most astonishing moments that we have ever seen happen inside the Oval Office” (00:07). The episode details significant statements from Vladimir Putin, who declared Russia's agreement to a Ukrainian ceasefire (00:07). However, these diplomatic efforts are juxtaposed with ongoing military actions, highlighting the complexity and fragility of peace talks.

Don Gonyea further explains a recent development where the Trump administration signed a deal to share revenues from Ukraine's mineral wealth, deepening US involvement in Ukraine’s future (00:30). This move is portrayed as a strategic political maneuver, emphasizing the broader implications beyond immediate conflict resolution.

2. Daily Life in Kyiv: A City of Resilience

Despite the geopolitical tensions, Joanna Kakissis, NPR's correspondent in Ukraine, paints a vibrant picture of daily life in Kyiv. She observes, “It's a city that's absolutely alive and full of creativity and resilience” (00:59). The capital boasts bustling coffee shops, restaurants, and active streets where people work and children attend school (00:59).

Joanna shares personal experiences, such as attending theater on weekends and witnessing elderly couples dancing by the Dnipro River, moments that seem incongruent with a city at war (01:16). However, this semblance of normalcy is punctuated by the harsh reality of nightly drone attacks. Joanna poignantly remarks, “every night, practically, there are drone attacks. ... Oh, yeah, this is war. We're at war” (01:16).

3. The Persisting Threat of Airstrikes

The core of the episode delves into the relentless airstrikes that continue to devastate Ukraine. Don Gonyea reports a recent significant attack: “A little over a week ago at one in the morning local time, ballistic missiles started falling on the city of Kyiv” (03:08). These attacks resulted in 12 deaths and around 90 injuries, with stories like Maria Rumyantseva scrambling to save her elderly mother before a missile destroyed their home (03:37).

Scott Detrow probes into the psychological toll of continuous bombardment. Joanna reflects on the community’s fatigue, noting, “People have just gotten really used to it... They’re just too tired” (04:27). This desensitization underscores the enduring hardship faced by Ukrainians living under constant threat.

4. Evolution of Warfare: The Rise of Drones

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the transformation of warfare through drone technology. Joanna Kakissis describes the conflict as “incredibly modern in some ways and incredibly World War I in other ways” (06:03), highlighting the blend of traditional and cutting-edge military strategies.

Drones, both large and small, have become pivotal on the battlefield. Joanna introduces the concept of land drones, explaining their roles and functionalities:

• Large drones resemble trucks with six wheels, used to transport supplies such as ammunition and food (07:23).
• Small drones are designed for offensive operations, carrying explosives to target enemy infantry (07:23).

She discusses her firsthand observations of these drones in action with the Heartya Brigade in Kharkiv, a unit composed of highly educated individuals, including young men with advanced degrees in fields like mathematics and engineering (08:15). A Ukrainian soldier from this brigade emphasizes the strategic advantage: “Our war is a competition between quantity and quality, and we are quality” (09:05).

5. Human Stories Amidst Conflict

Interwoven with the analysis of military tactics are deeply human stories that illustrate the personal cost of war. Maria Rumyantseva’s harrowing experience evacuating her home is a poignant example. Additionally, interviews with civilians and soldiers reveal the emotional and psychological strain endured by those on the front lines and their families.

A Ukrainian soldier shares a moment of vulnerability: “I was giving them the food and they were like crying because they said that I had no food for the three days because I was running from the bomb” (10:11). These narratives humanize the conflict, moving beyond statistics to showcase individual bravery and suffering.

6. Reporting from the Frontlines: Joanna’s Perspective

Joanna Kakissis addresses the challenges of reporting in a prolonged conflict. She explains the difficulty of maintaining journalistic integrity while dealing with personal fatigue: “The challenge is that you still have to keep up with the news. And there's only one of me” (09:33). Joanna emphasizes her commitment to telling human stories amidst the relentless news cycle, stating, “I need to talk to people because it's people who are experiencing this” (10:45).

Her approach underscores the importance of personal narratives in understanding the broader geopolitical landscape, ensuring that the human element remains at the forefront of wartime journalism.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Consider This" provides a comprehensive overview of the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, blending high-level geopolitical analysis with intimate human stories. Through the insights of Joanna Kakissis and interactions with Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, listeners gain a multifaceted understanding of both the strategic and personal dimensions of the war. The persistent threat of airstrikes, the innovative use of drone technology, and the resilient spirit of Kyiv’s residents collectively illustrate the enduring complexities and human cost of the conflict.

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Notable Quotes:

• Joanna Kakissis: “every night, practically, there are drone attacks. ... Oh, yeah, this is war. We're at war.” (01:16)
• Joanna Kakissis: “People have just gotten really used to it... They’re just too tired.” (04:27)
• Joanna Kakissis: “Our war is a competition between quantity and quality, and we are quality.” (09:05)
• Ukrainian Soldier: “I was giving them the food and they were like crying because they said that I had no food for the three days because I was running from the bomb.” (10:11)
• Joanna Kakissis: “I need to talk to people because it's people who are experiencing this.” (10:45)

Transcript

[Don Gonyea]

Over the past few months, Ukraine has been caught in geopolitical jostling at the highest echelons of power to say that.

[Joanna Kakissis]

It is one of the most astonishing moments that we have ever seen happen inside the Oval Office between these world leaders essentially shouting at one another significant couple of statements from Vladimir Putin saying that Russia agrees with a Ukraine ceasefire.

[Scott Detrow]

But it should, with world leaders gathering for the papal funeral at the Vatican, a peace summit of sorts for President Trump and Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the two leaders.

[Don Gonyea]

Just this week, the Trump administration signed a deal to share revenues from Ukraine's mineral wealth, tying the US Even more closely to negotiations over the country's future. But these are political machinations. What about daily life on the ground in Ukraine more than three years after the Russian invasion? Well, Kyiv, the capital, is bustling, at least by day.

[Joanna Kakissis]

It's a city that's absolutely alive and full of creativity and resilience. There's wonderful coffee shops, wonderful restaurants. You see people on the streets all the time during the day, people going to work, kids going to school.

[Don Gonyea]

That's Joanna Kakissis, NPR's correspondent in Ukraine.

[Joanna Kakissis]

On weekends, I'll go to the theater. We'll walk along the Dnipro River. You'll see these elderly couples dancing on the shore, like, doing the walt. And you know, and you think, like, this doesn't feel like a city at war. But every, every night, practically, there are drone attacks. You're, like, jarred awake by the fact, like, oh, yeah, this is war. We're at war. And it's happening practically every night.

[Don Gonyea]

Consider this. As diplomats tried to negotiate a peace deal, Ukrainian civilians are still dying from Russian airstrikes. So today for our Reporter's Notebook series, we'll get ground with Joanna, who's been living and working in Ukraine for almost the entire war. We'll hear how everyday Ukrainians have adapted to a new normal and how the country's military is trying to revolutionize drone warfare. From NPR, I'm Don Gonyea. When Malcolm Gladwell presented NPR's Throughline podcast with a Peabody Award, he praised it for its historical and moral clarity. On Throughline, we take you back in time to the origins of what's in the news, like presidential power, aging and evangelicalism. Time travel with us every week on the Throughline podcast from npr.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Don Gonyea]

It'S considered this from npr. A little over a week ago at one in the morning local time, ballistic missiles started falling on the city of Kyiv. The bombardment continued for the next 11 hours, killing 12 people and injuring around 90. 40 year old Maria Rumyantseva scrambled to evacuate her elderly mother before a Russian missile destroyed their home.

[Joanna Kakissis]

How do I get my mother, a disabled person in a wheelchair, down from the second floor to the first floor to the bomb shelter alone in eight minutes?

[Don Gonyea]

It was the deadliest attack on Kyiv since last summer. But missiles fall on the Ukrainian capital almost every night, a new normal that residents have endured from more than three years since the Russian invasion. Today we'll hear what it's like to cover the war at this moment from NPR's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kakissis. We'll pass it off to our co host Scott Detrow, who started by asking Joanna about those near nightly aerial attacks.

[Scott Detrow]

People in the early months everyone an air raid sire would come and the whole city would, would troop down to air raid shelters. Does that still happen after several years of this?

[Joanna Kakissis]

Not that many people go like they used to go. In the beginning it was every time. Now it's not as, not, not as often. People have just gotten really used to it. I've, I remember interviewing this woman who said that she was so tired after days and days of not sleeping that even though the explosion like was rattling her windows and actually blew out one of her windows, she didn't want to go downstairs to the, to the shelter. She's just like, honestly, I don't care if I die. I'm just too tired, I'm too tired. I need to sleep. It's really worn people down the fact that they hear this and they've just gotten used to it, as have I.

[Scott Detrow]

So that's life in Kyiv. What is the best way to describe what it's like when you leave the capital, when you go elsewhere in the country, especially as you move more toward the eastern front where the active, increasingly trench warfare war is taking place.

[Joanna Kakissis]

Right, right. You can really tell there's a big difference. When I'm in Kharkiv or in the Donetsk region, I definitely notice the difference. And for one there are many, many more explosions. And you also have the of something called guided bombs, like glide bombs, which are very, very destructive. And Kharkiv has suffered from a lot of them. And I've also visited Kherson there because the Russians are also nearby there. They'll send over drones that like attack people, like hunt them down and attack them on the street. So it's much more dangerous. I know a couple in Kherson who I've been in touch with for a while. He's a journalist and she's an illustrator. And she hasn't left the house in two years because she's too afraid to le.

[Scott Detrow]

You know, it's such a strange war. And I'm wondering how you see this from your perspective, because in some ways it is a very old style of war, right? With this static battlefield and trenches and landmines. And then it is a war that is being fought in so many ways by this modern technology, like both sides aggressively using drones and fighting a war that way.

[Joanna Kakissis]

Yeah, that's true. It's incredibly modern in some ways and incredibly World War I in other ways. Drone warfare is really the main stage right now. I'm not saying that infantry don't have a role anymore, but drones are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice by both sides. And especially the Ukrainians have invested a lot of money in making cutting edge drones or using drones in cutting edge ways. Because remember, the Ukrainians are vastly outnumbered by the Russians. There are many more Russian soldiers than there are Ukrainian soldiers. And Ukrainians can't lose soldiers. So to them, investing in warfare that will help them get an edge on the battlefield without losing more soldiers or investing more soldiers. That's where it's at for the Ukrainians.

[Scott Detrow]

And I understand you recently did some reporting where you saw some of these new drones up close, specifically something called a land drone. Tell me what a land drone is.

[Joanna Kakissis]

I saw two of them, actually. I should explain. Let's start with the big drone. The big drone looks like a truck with six wheels and it's about the size of a large bumper car at an amusement park, if you can think of that. And then there's a small drone that looks kind of like a child's plate truck, like one where a little person could fit, you know, sort of use a steering wheel to move it around, although there is no steering wheel on this one. The big drone carries supplies and it has like, you know, ammunition, it has food, it has, you know, whatever the soldiers need. They load it up and they, and they, and they send it in there. The smaller drone, that one is just filled with explosives and it's got a one way mission and it's to kill the enemy. So it's sent in there and the explosives are detonated once they're close to Russian infantry.

[Scott Detrow]

Tell me a little more about the specific unit that you spent time with with these land drones.

[Joanna Kakissis]

Sure, yeah. They were part of the Heartya Brigade, which is based in the northeastern city of Kharkiv, and it's like part of Ukraine's National Guard. It's got a lot of innovators in its ranks, like a lot of young men in their 20s with PhDs in mathematics and engineering and molecular biology. I spent a lot of time with this 26 year old evolutionary biologist whose military call sign is Pan, like the Greek God of shepherds and hunters. And he had this thick black hair and a gaze that just reflected a lot of steeliness and a lot of pain. He'd lost close friends in the war, and he's from part of Ukraine in the east that's been under relentless attack. And he told me a lot about how these land drones work because he himself has modified them so they can work for Ukraine. What is he doing right now? He's setting up his.

[Ukrainian Soldier]

Preparing his equipment for testing. We are testing. How far can it go? Our war is a competition between quantity and quality, and we are quality. It is not only because we have no choice. It is also because we have a capability to use such technology. We have smart people who can use it.

[Scott Detrow]

Joanna, I want to end with this. This war has been going on for more than three years now. I'm wondering how you approach this beat and how you think about finding new stories in a war that just keeps going on and how you fight the fatigue on your end and how you think about it editorially.

[Joanna Kakissis]

Well, I think the challenge is that you still have to keep up with the news. And there's only one of me. So the news always takes precedent. But what I really want to do and what I really try hard to find time to do is to tell stories about people. This is about human beings and how they're living through it.

[Ukrainian Soldier]

I was giving them the food and they were like crying because they said that I had no food for the three days because I was running from the bomb.

[Joanna Kakissis]

This isn't a war just about politics or who kicked who out of the Oval Office or things like that.

[Ukrainian Civilian]

Because of the attacks. I am very worried. So is my family. But I live close to the subway, and so the way to rehearsals is also underground.

[Joanna Kakissis]

It's very hard for me to sit.

[Ukrainian Soldier]

Here while my fellow soldiers are out there.

[Joanna Kakissis]

This is my country and If I don't defend it, who will? You know, at the end of the day, I don't need to listen to politicians and even to policy wonk so much. I need to talk to people because it's people who are experiencing this.

[Don Gonyea]

That was NPR's Ukraine correspondent Joanna Kakissis talking with All Things Considered host Scott Detrow. This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell and edited by Adam Rainey. Our executive producer is Sammy Yeniken. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Don Gonyea.

[Joanna Kakissis]

Foreign.

[Ukrainian Civilian]

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