Tim Kaine (3:06)

These individuals don't care about the lives of our friends and families. Why do we care if we take them out in international water? It is a war because they have declared war on our streets. And the president and Secretary Hegseth is doing exactly what we should be doing, being proactive against our enemies.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:22)

But other lawmakers want answers. Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska told ABC News we should get to the truth.

Tim Kaine (3:30)

I don't think he would be foolish enough to make this decision to say kill everybody, kill the survivors, because that's a clear violation of the law of war.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:41)

Senator Mark Kelly, Democrat from Arizona. He is Bacon's counterpart on the Senate Armed Services Committee. He said the committee will investigate military officials and put them under oath. Here's Senator Kelly speaking on cnn.

Tim Kaine (3:55)

If what has been reported is accurate, I've got serious concerns about anybody in.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:03)

That chain of command stepping over a line that they should never step over. Consider this. As President Trump has ramped up pressure on Venezuela, members of Congress are ramping up questions on whether his defense secretary's actions are legal. Is the US Committing war crimes in the Caribbean? From npr, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. On the next Throughline from npr, the mother of Thanksgiving. If every state should join in Union Thanksgiving on the 24th of this month, would it not be a renewed pledge of love and loyalty to the Constitution of the United States? Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Host of It's Been a Minute podcast (4:59)

So I just want to check in really quick. Are you okay, or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills, or political propaganda? If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap on the It's Been a Minute podcast. We're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us. Even if you don't have children, come find some relief. Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:40)

It's consider this from npr. Congress is charged with providing oversight to all the nooks and crannies of the executive branch, whether that's the Treasury Department or Health and Human Services or the Defense Department. And in recent days, several members of Congress have said they're planning more aggressive oversight of what the Trump administration says is A fight against narco terrorism in the Caribbean. One of the members of Congress asking questions, Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Senator, welcome.

Tim Kaine (6:11)

Mayor LOUISE Glad to talk today.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:13)

How clear are you on details of what exactly happened with the second strike, killing two people who had initially survived?

Tim Kaine (6:21)

Mayor LOUISE it's very murky, I think, up here. I'm on the two most relevant committees, Armed Services and Foreign Relations, and we're very, very troubled. And it's a bipartisan concern about the reporting of the second strike that killed these survivors. And so there are many, many unanswered questions.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:41)

There is a video of these strikes. It sounds like you haven't seen it.

Tim Kaine (6:44)

I have not seen the video, that's correct.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:46)

You've asked to see it?

Tim Kaine (6:47)

I've asked a whole series of questions that I have not gotten answers to. I asked a series of questions in a letter dated September 10, and most of my questions have not been answered.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:00)

If this September 2nd, if the 1st and second strikes happened, as the Washington Post has reported it, as NPR and others have confirmed, would it be illegal? Would it be a war crime?

Tim Kaine (7:14)

Well, on the legality, Mary Lees, let's start with the first strike. I have maintained since these strikes began that there's no legal authorization for them. And I have reviewed the Office of Legal Counsel classified opinion setting out a legal rationale. Because it's classified, I can't discuss its contents, but I can say I found it completely unpersuasive that this mission is lawful at all. But onto the second strike, set aside the first strike, whether these missions are legally authorized, the second strike, if you go after survivors of an attack and you kill them, that is a clear Violation of both DoD law of war manual and international conventions about the treatment of wounded combatants. And so if the reporting is correct, that on orders from the Secretary of Defense, a strike was made to kill the survivors of this first attack, if that reporting is correct, it's a war crime under both American law and international law.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:20)

And just to be as clear as we can be with, as we're acknowledging limited data, we haven't seen this video of what actually happened. But the importance of it being a second strike, I mean, if the US has made a decision, an order has been given, attack this boat, kill everybody on it. The, the detail of the second strike is because they survived. You're supposed to what, take them prisoner of war? Give them, give them some opportunity to plead their case?

Tim Kaine (8:46)

Yes. You're supposed to take them prisoner and then you decide. I mean, here's another fact that a Lot of folks have focused on there was a subsequent strike where there were survivors, one Colombian and one Ecuadorian. The administration picked them up and then returned them to Colombia or Ecuador.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:05)

Hmm.

Tim Kaine (9:05)

If they were narco traffickers, why weren't they arrested? Why weren't they put on trial or pressured to reveal their higher ups? Why were they sent back to Colombia and Ecuador where they were released back into the civilian population? That fact on a subsequent strike raises real questions about whether we're even striking combatants or whether we're striking people claiming that they're narco traffickers when they're actually not.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:30)

So again, the administration is defending these strikes as they are legal. The Defense Secretary, Secretary Pete Hegseth, has said the intent of these strikes, I'm quoting a post he put up on X. The intent of the strikes is to stop lethal drugs, destroy narco boats, and kill the narco terrorists who are poisoning the American people. Senator Kaine, what's wrong with that?

Tim Kaine (9:54)

That would be a great rationale if you presented it to Congress and let Congress vote that we should be at war to do just that. Our Constitution makes very plain that war is initiated by Congress. Once initiated, the President, Secretary of Defense and others are the commander in chief that implement the initiation of war. But war is not for the President to decide. The framers of our Constitution decided that. Mary Louise, when George Washington was president, they didn't even want George Washington to unilaterally take the nation to war. And they certainly wouldn't want Donald Trump doing it either.

Mary Louise Kelly (10:31)

I want to talk about the War Powers Resolution that you are planning to reintroduce. This would require congressional approval for military force in the Caribbean. You did try to get that through this fall. You couldn't get enough of your colleagues to support it. What has changed?

Tim Kaine (10:46)

Mayor LOUISE there's two separate resolutions. They're very closely related. One deals with boat strikes in international waters in the Caribbean and the Pacific. And you're right, we filed that. Adam Schiff was the lead sponsor. I was his co sponsor. We got two Republican votes. We needed at least four. I then led a similar resolution. No war in Venezuela or against Venezuela without congressional approval. We got two Republicans. We needed at least four. Both of those resolutions, though, were voted on for a lot of the subsequent developments. So with the Venezuela situation, the amassing of troops around Venezuela, the President closing the airspace, announcing that he's authorized covert operations, this has escalated dramatically. And similarly, the strikes in the Caribbean and Pacific, including with the revelation about, about the, the second strike, the retirement, the early retirement of the southcom commander. The decision by the UK to stop sharing intelligence with US Congress needs to assert control here.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:52)

Virginia Democrat Tim Kaine, as you heard, he sits on the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Affairs Committee. Senator, thank you.

Tim Kaine (11:58)

You bet.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:59)

This episode was produced by Vincent Akovino and Karen Zamora. It was edited by Patrick Jaranwadanan and Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

Tim Kaine (12:19)

Public radio is as American as apple pie. This Giving Tuesday is our first without federal funding. We need you to keep this American tradition alive. Give now atdonate edu npr.org on wait, wait, don't tell me famous actors remember their days of obscurity, like when Pedro Pascal remembered the stress of being a waiter, the logistical labor of meeting everyone's needs in the right manner.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:49)

Act one, the water.

Tim Kaine (12:51)

Act two, the drink. Listen to Wait Wait in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:56)

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