Loading summary
Mary Louise Kelly
For Michelle Salazar, a school voucher was a life changer. The mother of two lives in Florida, and she says when her son was in first grade in public school, he struggled.
Michelle Salazar
And I would sit with him for hours, hours every night after school trying to get him to do one page of homework. And it was like torture in school, she says.
Mary Louise Kelly
He could be fidgety and distracted.
Michelle Salazar
All the kids would sit at tables. They would put him in a desk and the desk was black in the corner like it was crazy. They just didn't really know how to deal with him. He struggled. He fell behind in reading.
Mary Louise Kelly
Eventually, her son was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia and Salazar tapped into a Florida based voucher program that gave her nearly $10,000 a year to help cover tuition at a small private Christian school that focuses on students with disabilities. Her son is now 12, and she says it has been a perfect fit.
Michelle Salazar
He loves it there and the teachers all love him. The little kiddos love him because he helps them. He'll help the teachers sometimes when the kids can't calm down.
Mary Louise Kelly
What's more, Salazar says she never could have afforded the school without the voucher. Soon, families across the country, even in states that have opposed vouchers, could get help from the federal government to pay for private school. It's part of the huge Republican tax bill. Not everyone is happy about it.
Curtis Finch
This is a Trojan horse. Looks good on the outside. And once you open your gates and let them in, the end is destruction.
Mary Louise Kelly
Consider this. Vouchers have been around for decades at the state and local levels. Now we have a lot of research on the effects these programs have had on kids, families and the public schools they leave behind. We'll dig into it after the break from npr. Mary I'm Mary Louise Kelly.
Jake Kalik
This message comes from Saatva. Everyone has a unique skill or ability. It just needs to be discovered, then nurtured. One way to foster that is getting quality sleep, which can improve athletic abilities, increase energy and boost memory and learning. Every Saatva mattress is designed to promote that kind of sleep. In fact, Saatva was named best luxury.
Jacqueline Rodriguez
Mattress by sleepfoundation.org and now save $200.
Jake Kalik
On $1,000 or more@saatva.com NPR support for this podcast and the following message come from Made in Cookware President and co founder Jake Kalik shares a tool that's useful for both master and newbie griller.
Cory Turner
The craftsmanship of the carbon steel griddle enhances your grilling experience because it allows you a totally different type of grill surface that opens up the amounts of food you're able to cook. So the griddle is the perfect accessory to add to your grill and kind of widen your your grilling game.
Jake Kalik
Learn more about Made in Cookware at M A D e I n cookware.com.
Jacqueline Rodriguez
This message is from Synchrony bank, who wants to remind you to stay flexible. Not the yoga bending circus performing kind of flexible, financially flexible like with their high yield savings account. Stay flexible. @synchrony.com NPR member FDIC.
Mary Louise Kelly
It'S consider this from NPR. So Michelle Salazar loved her experience with a Florida voucher program, but not everyone is a fan of vouchers. Take Curtis Finch, who we heard from just before the break.
Curtis Finch
It's not school choice, it's the school's choice whether we could take your kid or not.
Mary Louise Kelly
Finch runs the Deer Valley Public School District in Phoenix, Arizona, where lawmakers created a statewide voucher program even though voters oppose the idea. Finch says private schools in his district are allowed to reject voucher students for all sorts of reasons, essentially cherry picking the kids, they admit.
Curtis Finch
So that's really where we're getting this segregation mentality of we don't want your kid. He's too special needs. He has too much discipline, doesn't have academic prowess for our school. You know, fill in the blank.
Mary Louise Kelly
Finch singles out one private school group in his district that likes to say it has the best academic program around.
Curtis Finch
When they're bragging, you know, they'll have 200 kids in their high schools and they're only kids that they select and it's the application process, blah, blah, blah. I have more kids in my band program than they have in their whole high school. And if I took the top 200 kids out of my high school against their top 200, I'd smoke them every time. And they know that.
Mary Louise Kelly
Finch says his district has never been better academically than it is right now. And he says many families learn that the hard way by using vouchers to leave and then coming back. But when kids do return to public.
Curtis Finch
Schools, they're either behind, they're not following the state curriculum. I've got to use resources to go back and get them caught up. Yeah, it's a mess.
Mary Louise Kelly
So with the mother in Florida and the superintendent in Arizona, what we have here really is call it anecdata. And this is how the fierce debate about vouchers often goes, animated by stories about how they change things for one particular student or one particular school district. But the scale of the national program that Republicans have included in their reconciliation bill that has already passed the House. It's potentially huge, roughly $5 billion a year. So NPR education correspondent Cory Turner has been digging beyond the anecdote into the data data to answer some basic questions about how and whether vouchers work. Hey, Corey.
Josh Cowan
Hey, Mary Louise.
Mary Louise Kelly
Okay, so let me start basic question. This program that Republicans are proposing, how would it work?
Josh Cowan
So it would fund vouchers indirectly using the tax code. So basically, if this bill passes, anyone who wants to could make a charitable donation to a special nonprofit middleman. Okay. Then that middleman would then bundle all these donations into vouchers and distribute them to families. Where the federal government comes in is it would use a really generous tax credit to essentially pay these donors back dollar for dollar for these voucher donations. And one more thing to know here is not only do they get the dollar for dollar tax credit, but also if they donate stock instead of cash, they get to avoid capital gains taxes, which would ultimately make this voucher proposal profitable for many wealthy donors. As the bill's written, House Republicans are willing to give up $5 billion a year in tax revenue to pay for it. That would pay for a lot of vouchers.
Mary Louise Kelly
Who would be able to use these vouchers?
Josh Cowan
A lot of kids. It would be available to kids in households earning no more than three times an area's median gross income. What in the world does that mean? So let's just say where you live, Mary Louise, the median income is 70 grand. All right. So that would mean that any household earning less than $210,000 could qualify. Obviously, that's going to make it open to most kids. There are a few caveats here, though. You have to live near a private school willing to accept a voucher. So there are millions of kids in rural areas for whom this is going to be a non starter. Also, because the tax credit, as I said, is capped at $5 billion, not everyone who qualifies would actually be able to get a voucher.
Mary Louise Kelly
Okay, so back to this question of private schools and whether they would be willing to accept these vouchers. Circle back to that fear we just heard raised by the superintendent in Arizona. Would this bill, this Republican, allow private schools to accept and also reject students?
Josh Cowan
Absolutely. There's a sentence in the bill that essentially says the government has no ability to dictate terms to these private schools to tell them what to do or how to do it or whom to admit. So while Michelle Salazar, the mother we heard from earlier, she found a voucher school specifically designed to help Students with disabilities I have heard a lot about of concern from the disability rights community. Jacqueline Rodriguez is CEO of the national center for Learning Disabilities. You don't have to accept them, and.
Jacqueline Rodriguez
If you do, there is no mechanism.
Josh Cowan
In this piece of legislation that encourages oversight, enforcement, review. Kids with disabilities are often turned away by voucher schools because the schools will say, rightly they don't have the resources, they don't have the trained staff or the expertise. But also they're not bound by the federal Individuals with Disabilities Education act that requires public schools to provide all kids with disabilities a free and appropriate public education. I did a deep dive many years ago into Indiana's big statewide voucher program. I heard from a lot of parents of kids with disabilities who told me they had tried to use the vouchers, but there were no schools who would take their children. One sentence I should say was added to this new House bill that suggests some modicum of protection for students with disabilities. But I ran this sentence by a bunch of the researchers and experts I was interviewing for this project, and every one of them told me it's a fig leaf, that it's poorly written and would be impossible to enforce.
Mary Louise Kelly
Is there evidence that vouchers actually help students academically? It's a central question.
Josh Cowan
Yeah, the evidence is mixed at best, and it really depends on how you measure success. Mary LOUISE so we tend to hold public schools accountable using test scores. So let's start there. Here's Josh Cowan. He's a researcher at Michigan State who publicly opposes vouchers.
Patrick Wolf
It's true that in the 90s and in the early 2000s, when I first started working on this as a young data analyst, you did see a handful of voucher systems marginally improving academic performance.
Josh Cowan
But Cowan told me these really early programs all had a few things in common. They were quite small. They were targeted. The private schools that were included were pretty good, and the kids generally came from struggling public schools in low income neighborhoods. That is just not the way many voucher programs work today. State lawmakers have tried over the years to go bigger and bigger, to get less targeted. In many states, the ideal has been to make them universally available. And Cowan says as a result, those early test score benefits have essentially evaporated.
Patrick Wolf
The bigger and the more recent the voucher system, the worse the results have been for kids.
Josh Cowan
In fact, studies of large programs in Louisiana and Indiana found students who left public schools to attend private voucher schools did worse. They declined. And the learning loss, the researcher Josh Cowan says, was akin to the losses we saw from COVID and Hurricane Katrina.
Mary Louise Kelly
Akin to the losses from COVID which is, we know was unprecedented, off the charts. Do we know why?
Josh Cowan
This is a really complicated answer. So Cowan says, you know, when voucher programs get really big, which is when the results get really dicey, they pump a lot of dollars into the market. There's very little oversight. And so what often happens is these little low quality private schools just tend to pop up and they don't stick around very long. But another researcher I spoke to, Patrick Wolf at the University of Arkansas, he publicly supports vouchers. And he told me, look, judging the quality of private school by test scores is just wrong. Private schools just don't emphasize goosing test scores as much as public schools do. Public schools have to because they're held accountable. Private voucher schools, Wolf told me, you know, in many places don't have to take state tests. They don't have to follow public school curriculum. So you're not comparing apples to apples.
Mary Louise Kelly
So how do you measure success?
Josh Cowan
So Wolf points to a few other metrics and other research studies that suggest some benefit for voucher students. He says one study found students who do persist in their voucher programs may ultimately make up some of the ground they lost and even pull ahead. Now, obviously, Mary Louise, that does not help. The large numbers of kids we know don't persist, you know, for whom there is churn, and they end up cycling back to the public schools. Wolf also pointed out some evidence that voucher students may be more likely to graduate high school and even college. Again, those are the kids who persist. And there is consistent evidence that competition, some researchers don't like that word. But competition from vouchers can lead to small improvements in public schools. Though I will say when, when I run that by public school advocates, they get really bristly and point out that those benefits so small that they don't outweigh the risks that vouchers pose to public schools, including the loss of students, and with them, obviously the loss of money, since public schools funding depends in part on how many kids they serve.
Mary Louise Kelly
Well, that's my question. I was going to query you on what scale we're talking here. And again, back to the data, back to the evidence. Is there evidence that voucher programs are really leading to huge mass exodus of students from public schools?
Josh Cowan
Not really. So first, what we see in the research is a pretty sizable chunk of students leave public schools for voucher schools, but end up cycling back in a relatively short period of time. Sometimes it's because they want to they just decide the public school is a better fit. Sometimes it's because the private schools push them out because maybe they're low performers. And again, this is part of the deal. In many private school voucher programs, the schools have the ability to do that. There's one other thing that pops out in the data that I think is worth mentioning here, and that is when a voucher program goes really big, and I mean like universal or near universal, lifting any sort of income thresholds or limits. One of the things you see in state after state after state is most of the families who end up using a voucher in the early years of a universal program, their kids were already in private schools. So, for example, you look at Oklahoma when it enacted its recent voucher program, state data revealed fewer than 10% of applicants were coming from public schools. When I did my 2017 investigation in Indiana found the same thing. The government is essentially paying private school families to do what they were already doing with their own money and Pierre's.
Mary Louise Kelly
Cory Turner, thanks for sharing your reporting on vouchers and what Republicans would like to do about them.
Josh Cowan
You're welcome.
Mary Louise Kelly
This episode was produced by Connor Donovan. It was edited by John Ketchum. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. And we want to take a moment to thank our Consider THIS plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Thank you supporters. Also hear every episode without messages from sponsors. You can Learn more at plus.NPR.org It's Consider this from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.
Jacqueline Rodriguez
This message comes from Thrive Market. The food industry is a multi billion dollar industry, but not everything on the shelf is made with your health in mind. At Thrive Market, they go beyond the standards, curating the highest quality products for you and your family while focus an organic first and restricting more than 1,000 harmful ingredients, all shipped at your door. Shop at a grocery store that actually cares for your health@thrivemarket.com podcast for 30% off your first order plus a $60 free gift. This message comes from Warby Parker. What makes a great pair of glasses at Warby Parker? It's all the invisible extras without the extra cost, like free adjustments for life. Find your pair@warbyparker.com or visit one of their hundreds of stores around the country. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus@plus.NPR.org that's plus.NPR.org.
Released on June 6, 2025
In this episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Mary Louise Kelly delves into the contentious debate surrounding private school voucher programs. These programs, which provide families with financial support to send their children to private schools, have been gaining traction, especially with recent federal backing. The episode unpacks personal stories, expert opinions, and empirical data to assess the effectiveness of such initiatives.
The episode opens with the poignant story of Michelle Salazar from Florida, whose personal experience with a voucher program significantly improved her son's education.
Struggles in Public School:
[00:11] Michelle describes the challenges her son faced in a public school setting.
“And I would sit with him for hours, hours every night after school trying to get him to do one page of homework. And it was like torture in school,” she recalls.
Diagnosis and Solution:
After her son was diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia, Salazar utilized a Florida-based voucher program that provided nearly $10,000 annually for tuition at a specialized private Christian school.
“He loves it there and the teachers all love him. The little kiddos love him because he helps them,” Michelle shares at [00:59].
Salazar emphasizes that without the voucher, affording such specialized education would have been impossible.
Contrasting Salazar’s positive experience, the episode presents the viewpoint of Curtis Finch, superintendent of the Deer Valley Public School District in Phoenix, Arizona, who criticizes voucher programs.
Vouchers as a Trojan Horse:
Finch expresses deep skepticism, stating at [01:27], “This is a Trojan horse. Looks good on the outside. And once you open your gates and let them in, the end is destruction.”
Selective Admissions:
He highlights that private schools often cherry-pick students, rejecting those with special needs or lower academic performance.
“It's not school choice, it's the school's choice whether we could take your kid or not,” Finch explains at [03:38].
Impact on Public Schools:
Finch argues that voucher programs drain resources from public schools, forcing them to spend additional funds to reintegrate returning students.
“I've got to use resources to go back and get them caught up. Yeah, it's a mess,” he states at [04:56].
Mary Louise Kelly outlines the broader national context, highlighting a significant Republican tax bill that proposes federal funding for voucher programs, potentially allocating around $5 billion annually.
Eligibility and Limitations:
Josh Cowan, an education correspondent, explains at [06:56] that vouchers would be available to families earning up to three times the area's median income. However, limitations exist, such as the necessity for private schools to accept vouchers, which is not guaranteed.
Federal Government’s Role:
The bill structures vouchers through charitable donations, offering substantial tax credits to donors, particularly those contributing stocks to avoid capital gains taxes.
The heart of the episode examines empirical research on the efficacy of voucher programs, featuring insights from researchers Josh Cowan and Patrick Wolf.
Mixed Academic Outcomes:
Cowan notes that early, small-scale voucher programs showed marginal academic improvements. However, as programs expanded, these benefits diminished.
“The bigger and the more recent the voucher system, the worse the results have been for kids,” he observes at [10:17].
Declining Performance:
Studies in states like Louisiana and Indiana indicate that students who transitioned to voucher schools often experienced academic declines comparable to those seen during disruptions like COVID-19.
“...the learning loss, the researcher Josh Cowan says, was akin to the losses we saw from COVID and Hurricane Katrina,” Kelly reports at [11:02].
Alternative Metrics:
Supporters like Patrick Wolf argue that traditional test scores do not capture the full picture, suggesting that voucher students may have higher high school and college graduation rates. However, these findings primarily apply to students who remain in voucher programs, a minority of the total participants.
The discussion concludes by weighing the potential widespread implementation of voucher programs against the current evidence.
Limited Impact on Public Schools:
While some competition from vouchers might incentivize public schools to improve, the overall benefits are often outweighed by the challenges, including financial strain due to reduced student populations.
Current Utilization Patterns:
Data reveals that many voucher recipients were already attending private schools, indicating that the programs may not be expanding educational opportunities but rather subsidizing existing choices.
Josh Cowan summarizes the situation by emphasizing that the promise of widespread academic improvement through voucher programs is not supported by current evidence. Instead, the expansion of such programs may lead to unintended negative consequences for public education systems.
"Do private school voucher programs work?" remains a deeply divisive question. While individual stories like Michelle Salazar’s highlight potential benefits, broader research and expert opinions suggest that the systemic impacts may be detrimental to public education. As policymakers consider expanding voucher initiatives, the debate continues to balance personal success stories against nationwide educational outcomes.
Produced by Connor Donovan. Edited by John Ketchum. Executive Producer Sami Yenigun.