For LGBTQ Catholics, a lot depends on the next Pope

Summary

Consider This from NPR: For LGBTQ Catholics, a Lot Depends on the Next Pope

Release Date: May 6, 2025

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Introduction: A Conclave in the Heart of Rome

On the eve of the conclave to elect the next pope, St. Peter's Square in the Vatican buzzes with anticipation. Tourists and religious pilgrims alike navigate the bustling square, along with numerous reporters keen to observe the movements of the cardinals—those who will ultimately choose the new head of the Roman Catholic Church. Scott Detrow sets the stage by highlighting the significance of this moment for LGBTQ Catholics, emphasizing the potential impact of the forthcoming papal leadership on their place within the church.

Father James Martin: Bridging Faith and LGBTQ Inclusion

Father James Martin, a prominent Jesuit priest known for his ministry aimed at welcoming gay, lesbian, and transgender individuals into the Catholic Church, joins Scott Detrow to provide deeper insights. Martin, who sports a distinctive Philadelphia Eagles cap, has become a key figure in fostering dialogue between the church and the LGBTQ community.

At [01:44], Father Martin explains his mission:

“As the cardinals make their way through the square, they're being stopped by reporters and also being stopped by people asking for blessings. It's an interesting mix.” [01:20]

Pope Francis’s Legacy: A Shift Towards Inclusion

Under the leadership of Pope Francis, there has been a notable shift in the Catholic Church’s approach to LGBTQ individuals. Father Martin details how Pope Francis personally encouraged ministries that promote inclusivity, marking a departure from previous stances that often alienated LGBTQ members.

Father Martin highlights concrete changes initiated by Pope Francis:

“Francis probably did more for LGBTQ people. The first pope ever used the word gay. Came out against the criminalization of homosexuality. He met with LGBTQ people... These would not have happened before Francis.” [06:43]

He underscores that while formal doctrines and teachings may not have drastically changed, the tone and approach have become markedly more welcoming.

The Conclave’s Crossroads: Potential Directions for the Church

With the conclave underway, questions abound regarding the trajectory the new pope will take, especially concerning LGBTQ inclusion. Father Martin discusses the diverse perspectives among the cardinals, ranging from those who support continued outreach to LGBTQ individuals to others who advocate for a more traditional and administrative approach.

Father Martin provides insight into the cardinals’ deliberations:

“They're thinking about the legacy of Pope Francis. Do they want someone sort of in his vein?... They really are looking for someone who is holy, someone who's a good evangelizer and someone who's a good administrator.” [04:41]

He notes the presence of both admiration and critique of Pope Francis within the cardinals, indicating a complex decision-making process.

Navigating Tensions: Unity vs. Inclusion

A central tension within the church lies in balancing the desire for unity with the imperative to stand up for marginalized groups. Father Martin explains how this equilibrium is particularly pertinent regarding LGBTQ Catholics, many of whom feel alienated despite recent gestures of inclusion.

Addressing the current state of the church:

“There are a lot of people that feel under Francis, they've had this experience of welcome. But there are also many places where cardinals and bishops are pretty homophobic and pretty, I would say, sometimes mean to LGBTQ people.” [08:01]

He emphasizes that encountering and understanding LGBTQ individuals is crucial for changing homophobic attitudes among church leaders, a point echoed by Pope Francis’s emphasis on a “culture of encounter.”

The Path Forward: Embracing Change and Trusting the Process

Looking ahead, Father Martin expresses cautious optimism. He believes that as more Catholics come out and assert their identities, the church will be compelled to address and integrate these changes more fully.

On the future of the church’s stance:

“The only way that's going to change... is encounter. This is one of the reasons Pope Francis was so big on the culture of encounter. It's coming to know people. That's basically it.” [08:59]

He advocates for trust in the conclave process, suggesting that the Holy Spirit guides the cardinals towards a leader who embodies holiness, effective evangelization, and adept administration.

Reassuring the faithful during the conclave:

“We have to trust that the cardinals are opening themselves up to the activity of the Holy Spirit and really are trying to find the man who they think is the best.” [10:24]

Father Martin’s Personal Journey and Ministry

Father Martin shares his personal motivations for leading a ministry focused on LGBTQ inclusion. The tragic Pulse nightclub massacre in 2016 served as a catalyst, prompting him to address the church’s response to such violence and the broader alienation felt by LGBTQ individuals.

Reflecting on his ministry’s origins:

“After the Pulse nightclub massacre... I thought, boy, you know, what does this community have to do to get the attention of the church? Is it not enough that they're murdered? So I gave a talk and then wrote a book called Building a Bridge, and that led into this ministry.” [09:15]

His approach has been met with both support and resistance within the church, yet he remains committed to fostering an environment of understanding and acceptance.

Conclusion: A Hopeful Outlook Amid Uncertainty

As the conclave progresses, the future of LGBTQ inclusion within the Catholic Church remains uncertain but filled with potential. Father James Martin’s insights highlight the delicate interplay between tradition and modernity, unity and diversity. While the next pope’s stance will significantly influence the church’s direction, the seeds of change sown by Pope Francis and advocates like Father Martin continue to shape the dialogue.

Final thoughts from Father Martin:

“We really have to trust in the process. And, you know, as a Jesuit, you know, we will work with whoever steps out on that balcony in a couple of days.” [10:24]

Scott Detrow concludes the episode by acknowledging Father Martin’s contributions and emphasizing the ongoing journey towards a more inclusive church.

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Notable Quotes:

• Father James Martin at [04:41]: “They really are looking for someone who is holy, someone who's a good evangelizer and someone who's a good administrator.”

• Father James Martin at [08:59]: “The only way that's going to change... is encounter.”

• Father James Martin at [10:24]: “We have to trust that the cardinals are opening themselves up to the activity of the Holy Spirit and really are trying to find the man who they think is the best.”

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This episode of Consider This delves into the pivotal moment facing the Catholic Church, exploring the hopes and apprehensions of LGBTQ Catholics as they await the election of the next pope. Through Father James Martin’s experienced perspective, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead for the church’s relationship with its LGBTQ members.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

Before we start the show, you may have heard that President Trump has issued an executive order seeking to block all federal funding to npr. This is the latest in a series of threats to media organizations across the country. Millions of people, people like you, depend on the NPR network as a vital source of news, entertainment, information, and connection. We're proud to be here for you. And now, more than ever, we need you to be here for us. It is time to join the movement to defend public media. Please visit donate.NPR.org and if you already support us via NPR or another means, thank you. Your support means so much to us. Now more than ever, you help make NPR shows freely available to everyone. We are proud to do this work for you and with you. Now onto the episode. On the eve of the conclave to elect the next pope, St. Peter's Square in the Vatican is bustling with activity. There are tourists and religious pilgrims. There are also a lot of reporters waiting to spot the stars of the coming event, the cardinals who will vote to elect the next head of the Roman Catholic Church. When any of them walk through the square, dressed in their black cassocks, draped with red sashes and often holding briefcases, people swarm them.

[Father James Martin]

As the cardinals make their way through the square, they're being stopped by reporters and also being stopped by people asking for blessings. It's an interesting mix.

[Scott Detrow]

One of the big questions hanging in the air, whether the church will continue the path Pope Francis set in softening its harsh positions on LGBTQ Catholics and whether they can fully participate in the church. To better understand this tension point, we walked a few blocks off the square. Thanks for meeting us.

[Father James Martin]

Of course. Let's see if we can get a.

[Scott Detrow]

Space in here and meet an American priest wearing a green Philadelphia Eagle's cap. This is Father James Martin, a high profile Jesuit who in recent years has carved out a ministry aimed at making gay, lesbian and transgender people feel more welcome in the Catholic Church. It's a ministry Pope Francis personally encouraged. Martin meets us at the Jesuits global headquarters called the General Curio. He walks us to an old fashioned elevator and we head to the roof.

[Father James Martin]

Hold the little thing, pull it and push.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Father James Martin]

Yeah.

[Scott Detrow]

The Jesuits have good real estate. The roof opens up to a lush hillside Mediterranean garden.

[Father James Martin]

This was Nero's wife's palace or something. These things.

[Scott Detrow]

And overlooks the Square and St. Peter's Basilica.

[Father James Martin]

Let me show you the view. Oh, look, they have the curtains up already. That's so cool.

Oh, yeah, those weren't up yesterday.

[Scott Detrow]

The ornate balcony where the next pope will first appear has been draped in red velvet curtains. Consider this the new pope will decide whether to continue Pope Francis outreach to the LGBTQ community or whether to revert to doctrines and messaging that push pushes them out of the faith. Ahead, we'll talk it through with Father Martin, who advised Pope Francis on this issue. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Scott Detrow]

It'S Consider this from npr. When you walk around Rome these days, there is one topic of conversation, who will be the next pope? And a few related questions that usually follow it. What direction will the new pontiff take to the church? And what what are the members of the College of Cardinals thinking right now? That's the question I raised with Father Martin.

[Father James Martin]

We're at that moment where the cardinals have not gone into the conclave yet. They're meeting every day. There's a lot of buzz around the city. Have you heard stray thoughts one way or another that give you a sense of kind of where that conversation is going among the people that matter?

Well, exactly what we were saying before, that they're thinking about the legacy of Pope Francis. Do they want someone sort of in his vein? Do they want someone who might be a little more sort of sedate, right. Bland, maybe even kind of an administrator? And what I've been hearing also is a surprising amount of cardinals being pretty blunt about their critiques of Pope Francis and also their critiques of the critiques of Pope Francis. So I think it's which is good. They really are looking for someone who is holy, someone who's a good evangelizer and someone who's a good administrator. And frankly, those three things are hard to find in one person.

We were interviewing people the other day at St. Mary Major, where, of course, Pope Francis Tomb is. And we talked to one person who I thought, like, really embodies this challenge the church faces. She's somebody who grew up in the church, playing the organ in the church. You could hear her talking about it. That was a fond memory. But she said she's lgbtq and she felt increasingly pushed out and pushed out and pushed out. And she said, I don't consider myself Catholic anymore because I felt alienated by this. And I feel like that story plays out in so many places right now. And it's just been this incredible challenge for the church. And I know it's one that you've thought a lot about.

Yeah, there are a lot of people that feel that way. By the same token, there are a lot of people that feel under Francis, they've had this experience of welcome. I would say Francis probably did more for LGBTQ people. Well, not probably than all of his predecessors combined. Right. The first pope ever used the word gay. Came out against the criminalization of homosexuality. He met with LGBTQ people. He met with me and other people who ministered to them. So I think there is still this sense of alienation, but I think it really diminished under Francis.

I've heard you talk about this over the past few weeks. I've seen you write about it. How do you think of his lasting legacy when it comes to this? Because there were so many gestures and statements that were welcoming. But then there's critics who say, well, when you look at the formal teachings, when you look at the writings, the rule setting, not much did change.

Well, I think the approach changed, and that's a kind of teaching itself. So his change in the conversation, the way he treated LGBTQ people, but actually, he did change some things. So the ability to bless same sex couples, I mean, that's a change. The decriminalization of homosexuality, that's a change. One thing I want to say is that I think the media tended to overlook in the last few years of his life, he used to meet regularly with transgender people. Was kind of under the radar, but that's. That's a big deal. I mean, and at his entombment, you could say at St. Mary Major, there was a representative from the transgender community officially there, you know, at the invitation of a Vatican. So that's a change. And that. That would not have happened before Francis.

You mentioned the blessing of same sex couples, though. That, of course, quickly became a non starter in Africa due to pretty swift measures by African cardinals. And I think that gets to this tension point in the church, and I'm curious what you think the path forward is that when you look at the parts of the world where the church is most rapidly growing, there's real resistance to things like that from parishioners, from leaders, including from some cardinals who could be in contention to be the next pope.

[Scott Detrow]

How do you think the church moves.

[Father James Martin]

Forward, keeping those views in mind, but also being welcoming, not being, frankly, some people would say, at times, hateful toward people who are gay.

Right. And it is a breaking point, I think, by balancing the tension between what you might call prophecy and unity. Unity is a value in the church. We don't want to split the church over any issue. By the same token, we have to stand up for people who are being marginalized. I always say there were two trends in the church in the last 12 years for LGBTQ people. One was Pope Francis, Right. And that trend is over in terms of his gestures and who he appointed as cardinals. The other trend, though, is as more and more people come out right in, more and more Catholics come out, their families are changed, their parishes are changed, priests are changed, bishops are changed. And that trend is not going to stop. People are going to continue to come out. So it is a frustration that there are many places where cardinals and bishops are pretty homophobic and pretty, I would say, sometimes mean to LGBTQ people. And I think that really has to change. The only way that's going to change, frankly, for these church leaders is encounter. This is one of the reasons Pope Francis was so big on the culture of encounter. It's coming to know people. That's basically it.

You've written a lot of books. You're one of the most prominent priests in the United States. Why did you decide that this was something that you wanted to focus on and really create a ministry reaching out to LGBTQ people?

Well, it's funny. I didn't really decide it. I didn't get up one morning and say, I want to do this super controversial ministry. In fact, it's. I don't like controversy. After the Pulse nightclub massacre in 2016, when 49 people were killed in a gay nightclub, I just saw the bishop's response, in my own opinion, as pretty tepid. And I thought, boy, you know, what does this community have to do to get the attention of the church? Is it not enough that they're murdered? So I gave a talk and then wrote a book called Building a Bridge, and that led into this ministry. So I didn't really get up and decide one day to do this. It just sort of happened. But at each turning point, I think it's important for me to say I sought approval from my Jesuit superiors and then eventually met with the pope, who said in 2019, I want you to continue this ministry in peace. And so that's what I've tried to.

Do in this moment where we don't know who the next pope will be. A lot of people who deeply appreciated that approach that Pope Francis took are worried that the next pope will not be like that. We'll reverse course on so many things. You wrote an article. The headline was something along the lines of don't fear the outcome of the next conclave, addressed to people who are worried. What did you say?

Well, I can only approach that from a spiritual point of view, which is to remind people that the Holy Spirit is not exactly, you know, picking the pope, but he's guiding the process. And then we have to trust that the cardinals are opening themselves up to the activity of the Holy Spirit and really are trying to find the man who they think is the best. And look, these are very prayerful people. They've spent their whole life in service to the church, in service to Jesus, and they want the best. They want the best guy. It may seem political, but we really have to trust in the process. And, you know, as a Jesuit, you know, we will work with whoever steps out on that balcony in a couple of days.

Father James Martin, S.J. thank you so much for talking to us.

My pleasure.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam, Connor Donovan and Erica Ryan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sam Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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