Former ‘Ebola czar’ on the current outbreak in Africa

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Consider This from NPR
Episode: Former ‘Ebola czar’ on the current outbreak in Africa
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Ron Klain, former White House Ebola Response Coordinator
Date: May 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Consider This delves into the rapidly escalating Ebola outbreak in Central and East Africa, which has recently been declared an international public health emergency. Scott Detrow speaks with Ron Klain, the former White House Ebola response coordinator, about lessons from the past, the current global response, and the consequences of recent disruptions to US and international public health infrastructure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Scope and Urgency of the Outbreak

• Rapid escalation: The new Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda has quickly become one of the largest recorded, with over 500 cases and more than 130 deaths.
  • "This already makes it on day one, one of the largest Ebola outbreaks ever recorded." (Public Health Expert, 00:16)
• Declaration of emergency: The WHO has classified the outbreak as a public health emergency of international concern.

2. Differences Compared to 2014 Outbreak

• New region, new strain:
  • The virus is a different strain from that seen in West Africa during 2014 and currently lacks both a vaccine and treatment.
  • "It's a different part of Africa and it's a different strain of Ebola. This is a strain of Ebola for which we have no vaccine and no treatments." (Ron Klain, 03:58)
• Conflict and refugees:
  • The outbreak is happening near massive refugee communities in South Sudan, compounding risks.
  • "It's a highly dangerous place for this to happen... proximity to South Sudan and the large number of refugees there is a very, very scary scenario." (Ron Klain, 03:58; 06:18)

3. Impact of U.S. Public Health Infrastructure Cuts

• Disruptions and dismantling:

  • Cuts to CDC staff and the dismantling of USAID’s presence abroad have weakened surveillance and outbreak response.
  • "Those cuts over the last year have definitely had an impact and unfortunately we're seeing the fallout from that right now." (Public Health Expert, 00:58)

• Role of USAID:

  • "USAID played a critical role in the Ebola response in West Africa... Particularly their DART teams, their emergency response teams, were really the leaders of the on-the-ground response." (Ron Klain, 04:49)
  • The absence of this leadership is now a "giant gaping hole" in the current response (Ron Klain, 05:34).

• Withdrawal from WHO:

  • The U.S. withdrawal is expected to have long-term negative effects, as coordination and resources from Western nations have historically been crucial.
  • "The WHO does not have a response capacity. So that really relies on... things like USAID and the United States and our allies in Western Europe to provide a key elements of the response." (Ron Klain, 05:42)

4. Threat Assessment: Africa vs. the West

• Risk to Africa:
  • The primary risk and burden are on people in affected African regions, especially given conflict and limited resources.
  • "People, you can't send doctors and nurses in places where people are firing bullets. It's a very hard thing to do." (Ron Klain, 06:18)
• Limited threat to the West:
  • The chance of spread to Western nations is lower than in 2014, due in part to less travel from the affected areas.
  • "The number of people who travel from the DRC and Uganda to Western countries is relatively small." (Ron Klain, 06:58)

5. Public Trust and Communication Challenges

• Erosion of trust:
  • Public distrust in government and scientific expertise, exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic, undermines response efforts.
  • "A lot of people... do not want to hear what scientific experts have to say. And now we have people in the administration undermining those experts in a whole bunch of different ways." (Scott Detrow, 08:28)
• Need for clear communication:
  • Despite the limited risk to the U.S., supporting epidemic response abroad ultimately protects Americans as well.
  • "No one is safe until these epidemics are extinguished... the more the U.S. does to help extinguish this epidemic in East Africa will not only save lives there... but will also help protect Americans, too." (Ron Klain, 08:58)

6. Political Context and Leadership

• Policy decisions analyzed:
  • Klain refutes the idea that the Biden administration’s pandemic response created conditions for recent disruptions, clarifying timelines and policy actions.
  • "There's just no causal link at all... our President Biden's response to COVID was highly effective." (Ron Klain, 07:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On urgency:

  • "We learned too much too quickly for this to be anything but really bad." (Public Health Expert, 00:44)

• On USAID's role:

  • "The lack of USAID to lead, coordinate and power this response is a giant gaping hole." (Ron Klain, 05:34)

• On conflict complicating response:

  • "You can't send doctors and nurses in places where people are firing bullets." (Ron Klain, 06:18)

• On interconnectedness:

  • "No one is safe until these epidemics are extinguished." (Ron Klain, 08:58)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00-01:25]: Overview of the outbreak, public health infrastructure cuts
• [03:06-03:45]: Introduction of Ron Klain, context for the outbreak
• [03:58]: Differences and risks of the current strain and region
• [04:49]: The critical on-the-ground role of USAID in past outbreaks
• [05:34-06:08]: Impact of losing USAID and withdrawal from WHO
• [06:18-06:58]: Threat analysis for Africa and the West
• [07:22-07:59]: Public trust and connection with prior pandemic responses
• [08:58]: Need for global assistance and interconnected health security

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Summary

This episode delivers a sobering look at the Ebola outbreak in Central and East Africa, highlighting how cuts to public health infrastructure and retraction of international partnerships have left a vacuum in global epidemic response. Ron Klain, drawing on his direct experience, stresses the dual necessity—both ethical and practical—of assisting affected regions. He provides a clear-eyed assessment of the outbreak’s risks, contrasts with the 2014 crisis, and the importance of restoring trust in science and government as the world faces fresh public health challenges.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this where every day we go deep on one big news story today, Ebola. In just a matter of days, public health officials went from announcing a new outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo to declaring the outbreak an international public health emergency.

[Public Health Expert]

That is incredibly fast. This already makes it on day one, one of the largest Ebola outbreaks ever recorded.

[Scott Detrow]

Dr. Craig Spencer knows firsthand the damage Ebola can cause. He helped fight a different strain in West Africa just over a decade ago and also contracted Ebola himself while caring for patients. The death toll and infection rate in this current outbreak continues to climb, with more than 130 deaths and over 500 cases linked to the virus.

[Public Health Expert]

What concerns me the most is we learned too much too quickly for this to be anything but really bad.

[Scott Detrow]

All of this is unfolding at a time when the Trump administration has disrupted or dismantled public health infrastructure at home and abroad.

[Public Health Expert]

Those all have dramatic impacts like we lost a lot of CDC staff and a lot of our CDC staff are now in Nebraska helping with hantavirus. We lost usaid, that was responsible for helping be our eyes and ears and detecting outbreaks like this. And we withdrew from the who, which is already pretty thin in terms of dealing with hantavirus and other outbreaks. Those cuts over the last year have definitely had an impact and unfortunately we're seeing the fallout from that right now.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider as Ebola spreads across Central and East Africa, how will those cuts to public health organizations affect the response? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this from npr. The death toll of the Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of Congo and Uganda continues to climb days after the World Health Organization declared it a public health emergency of international concern.

[Ron Klain]

I'm deeply concerned about the scale and speed of the epidemic.

[Scott Detrow]

That is WHO Director General Tedros Adatum Gabriel speaking earlier today in Geneva. Joining me now to talk about the global response to this outbreak is Ron Klain. He is the former White House Ebola response coordinator under President Obama and of course, later President Biden's White House chief of staff. Ron, thanks for joining us.

[Ron Klain]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

Look, a lot to talk about with the government response, but let's start with the outbreak itself. Based on what you are seeing and hearing, what to you is similar to the situation you helped coordinate in 2014. And what is different?

[Ron Klain]

Well, what's similar is it's Ebola and it's in Africa. What's different is it's a different part of Africa and it's a different strain of Ebola. This is a strain of Ebola for which we have no vaccine and no treatments. And it's in a part of Africa which is conflict laden and is adjacent to massive gatherings of refugees in South Sudan. So it's a highly dangerous place for this to happen. And what's also similar is we're behind. And so the response is starting off in deficit.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah. And of course, to deal with an outbreak like this, you need a coordinated government response. You need a lot of coordination and conversation among governments. You need the US to play a leading role in international health organizations. What role specifically did USAID play in dealing with Ebola in 2014?

[Ron Klain]

USAID played a critical role in the Ebola response in West Africa in 2014 and 2015. Particularly their dart teams, their emergency response teams were really the leaders of the on the ground response from the donor nations and played a key role in helping local communities stand up their responses and to build local Ebola treatment units and to handle the burial of the dead, which is really critical in stopping the spread of the disease since people are maximally infectious when they die. And I think that that is a big, big gap in the response. The lack of USAID to lead, coordinate and power this response is a giant gaping hole.

[Scott Detrow]

So that's been dismantled. And of course, President Trump has also withdrawn the US from the World Health Organization. Does that matter or is that mostly symbolic?

[Ron Klain]

I think it will matter in the long run. I think the WHO is going to do whatever it's going to do. They're an international regulatory organization. They declare public health emergencies and they urge other countries to respond. But the WHO does not have a response capacity. So that really relies on, in the past, historically, things like USAID and the United States and our allies in Western Europe to provide a key elements of the response.

[Scott Detrow]

You have said a lot of things that are kind of troubling to hear. And I'm wondering what you are most worried about as somebody who sat in these meetings a decade ago.

[Ron Klain]

I think there's less danger from this outbreak to Western nations in the U.S. but I think there's greater danger for the people in Africa. I think the part of Africa where this is broken out, as I said, is conflict laden. And that makes a medical response very difficult. People, you can't send doctors and nurses in places where people are firing bullets. It's a very hard thing to do. And I would also say the proximity to South Sudan and the large number of refugees there is a very, very scary scenario. If Ebola started to spread in refugee camps in South Sudan, the death toll could be just chilling.

[Scott Detrow]

Can you explain why you don't think it's as big of a threat to Western countries right now?

[Ron Klain]

Because the number of people who travel from the DRC and Uganda to Western countries is relatively small. You know, in West Africa in 2014, the three countries where this broke out were countries with serious historical and current ties to the US And Western Europe. And so there was a lot of migration back and forth and, you know, a lot of interconnection.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah, I want to ask about. I want to ask a broader question about public trust in government. And you were, you know, as I mentioned, a close advisor, White House chief of staff to President Biden. And a lot of people seem to think that we have gotten to this point in part because of the way that public trust in government and health officials and scientific experts broke down during the COVID pandemic. And I'm wondering what you think about that, whether you think any way the Biden administration responded to Covid played a role in some part in paving the way for the Trump administration to come in and just disrupt public health infrastructure.

[Ron Klain]

No, I reject that. I mean, first of all, President Trump withdrew from the World Health Organization in his first term before Joe Biden was ever president. And, you know, I think so. I think the idea that somehow what happened under President Biden led to this is just. There's just no causal link at all. And in the end, I will say our President Biden's response to Covid was highly effective. And, and obviously the decision to dismantle USAID had nothing to do with all that.

[Scott Detrow]

But regardless, I feel like you would probably agree that we are at a point right now where a lot of people in the United States do not want to hear what scientific experts have to say. And now we have people in the administration undermining those experts in a whole bunch of different ways. So given all of that, how are you thinking about the right global health response and public health response and, and new challenges that might create as public officials are trying to give messages about safety and statistics during an outbreak like this?

[Ron Klain]

Well, I think it is a challenge. You're absolutely right on that. I think that, you know, I hope that the US Government will help respond to this epidemic on the ground in East Africa because in the end, no one is safe until these epidemics are extinguished. And though the risk of transmission to the US Is low, it's not zero. And the longer it goes on and the more it spreads, the more that risk goes up. We're all interconnected. And the more the US does to help extinguish this epidemic in East Africa will not only save lives there, which is vitally important in and of itself, but will also help protect Americans, too.

[Scott Detrow]

That is Ron Klain, former White House Ebola response coordinator under President Obama. Thanks so much for talking to us about this.

[Ron Klain]

Thank you. Take care.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Christopher Harlan Dunaway, Catherine Fink and Karen Zamora. It was edited by Christopher Intagliota and Gisele Grace. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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