How a punishing two years shaped Pope Francis

Summary

Consider This from NPR

Episode: How a Punishing Two Years Shaped Pope Francis
Release Date: April 26, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Daniel Burke, NPR Religion Editor

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Introduction: The Hidden Struggles of Pope Francis

In this compelling episode of Consider This, host Scott Detrow delves into a lesser-known and tumultuous period in the life of Pope Francis. Once perceived as arrogant and aloof, Francis experienced a significant transformation during a two-year exile from the Argentinian Jesuit order—a time he later described as a "dark night" and a personal crisis. This episode explores how these challenging years profoundly influenced his leadership and the direction of the Catholic Church.

Discovery of the Two-Year Gap in Francis’s Resume

[00:00 – 01:31]

Scott Detrow introduces the central theme by highlighting a noteworthy gap in Pope Francis's early career. NPR Religion Editor Daniel Burke uncovered a two-year period (1990-1992) where Francis held a menial parish position in Cordoba, far from his influential role as the leader of the Jesuit order in Buenos Aires. This stark contrast raised questions about the circumstances that led to his apparent sidelining.

Daniel Burke:
"Shortly after he was elected Pope in 2013, there were timelines of his life produced by the Catholic Church. And there was this gap, as you said, from 1990 to 1992, in which he was essentially doing nothing, a very menial job at a parish in the city of Cordoba, far from his home city."
[01:52]

Reasons for Exile: Divisions Within the Jesuit Order

[02:40 – 04:38]

Burke explains that Francis was exiled due to internal conflicts within the Jesuit community. His progressive vision that priests should be deeply engaged with their communities—literally working on farms to support the poor—clashed with more traditional Jesuits who preferred intellectual and academic pursuits. This ideological split led to his removal from a prominent position to a less influential parish, marking the beginning of his "dark night."

Daniel Burke:
"He was creating division among the Jesuits. He had this view that priests should, he still said this as pope, should smell like their sheep, which means, like, be in touch with the people with the flock."
[03:12]

Life During Exile: A Time of Purification and Reflection

[04:38 – 05:43]

During his two-year exile, Francis had little responsibility beyond completing his doctoral dissertation—a task he found unengaging. Instead, he devoted his time to prayer, reading, and writing essays. This period was not just a punishment but also a time of purification, allowing him to reflect deeply on his faith and purpose.

Daniel Burke:
"He refers to it as a time of purification and as a dark night."
[03:06]

Transformation: From Authoritarian to Compassionate Leader

[05:31 – 07:27]

The exile had a transformative effect on Francis. Colleagues and friends observed a significant shift in his demeanor—from an authoritarian figure to a more collaborative and compassionate leader. This change was evident in his approach to leadership, where he became more open to listening and compromising.

Daniel Burke:
"The man who emerged was not as authoritarian. He's much more consulting with other people. He's much more willing to listen to other people and to compromise."
[04:45]

Burke also notes the stark contrast between the stern, avoided Francis of Cordoba and the joyful, approachable pope who emerged years later.

Daniel Burke:
"When he heard confessions, Catholics did not want to go to him. He was known as being strict. They called him Father Sour Face. And so they actually avoided him."
[07:03]

Impact on His Papacy: A Heart for the Marginalized and Merciful Leadership

[07:27 – 08:40]

Burke connects Francis's exile to his later papacy, emphasizing how his experiences fostered a deep empathy for those marginalized or ostracized. Francis's focus on mercy, inclusivity, and being a "field hospital" rather than a "fortress" stems directly from his own time of isolation and introspection.

Daniel Burke:
"He had a heart for those kind of people. If you see him talking to people on the margins, he's always welcoming them into the Church. He had this evocative phrase that he wanted it to be a field hospital and not a fortress."
[05:43]

Additionally, Burke reflects on a poignant interaction where Francis advised a politician to "live your exile" to become kinder and more merciful—a testament to the wisdom gleaned from his own challenging times.

Daniel Burke:
"You have to live your exile and you will come back kinder and more merciful and be prepared to serve your people."
[05:43]

Personal Reflections: Lessons from Adversity

[08:27 – 09:44]

Burke shares how researching Francis's exile influenced his own perspective on personal setbacks. He draws parallels between Francis's forced pause and his own experiences, highlighting the importance of resilience and personal growth in the face of adversity.

Daniel Burke:
"I think what I learned from him and what I learned from this period is so much is dependent on how you handle those situations. Right. Like, he could have gone into this period and really just moped and left the Jesuit order or left the church and not really used it in the way he did, which was to make himself a better person at the end of the day."
[08:40]

Conclusion: The Lasting Legacy of a Transformed Leader

[09:48 – 10:02]

The episode concludes by underscoring how the two-year exile was pivotal in shaping Pope Francis into the compassionate and inclusive leader he is today. This period of hardship and introspection not only redefined his personal character but also had a lasting impact on the global Catholic Church.

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Notable Quotes

• Daniel Burke on the Gap:
  "He was essentially doing nothing, a very menial job at a parish in the city of Cordoba."
  [01:52]

• Daniel Burke on Exile Purpose:
  "He refers to it as a time of purification and as a dark night."
  [03:06]

• Daniel Burke on Leadership Change:
  "He's much more willing to listen to other people and to compromise."
  [04:45]

• Daniel Burke on Personal Growth:
  "So much is dependent on how you handle those situations."
  [08:40]

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This episode of Consider This masterfully unpacks a critical yet obscure chapter in Pope Francis's life, revealing how periods of adversity can lead to profound personal transformation and impactful leadership.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

The man remembered today at a funeral in St. Peter's Square. Pope Francis was once very different. There was a period of time, decades ago when he was viewed as arrogant, aloof, as someone who caused so much discord that he was essentially exiled from the Argentinian Jesuit order he had once led. Francis often referred to this two year window, which happened when he was in his 50s, as a dark night and a crisis in his life. Consider this Pope Francis. Two years on the periphery impacted him deeply and very likely changed the course of the church. For today's reporter's notebook, we talk with NPR religion editor Daniel Burke about what he learned by digging into this little known period of Francis life that shaped him and his papacy. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Scott Detrow]

Today it's consider this from npr. During the first few years of Pope Francis, papacy reporter Daniel Burke realized something strange. There was a two year gap in the resume of Pope Francis. Burke is now NPR's religion editor. I asked him what it was about this gap that made him want to spend a lot of time researching and reporting on it.

[Daniel Burke]

Shortly after he was elected Pope in 2013, there were timelines of his life produced by the Catholic Church. And there was this gap, as you said, from 1990 to 1992, in which he was essentially doing nothing, a very menial job at a parish in the city of Cordoba, far from his home city. And I thought, well, that's interesting. He goes from being a really powerful Jesuit to, to doing nothing. And then he's a powerful archbishop. What is going on here? Why was he sent to this place? What did he do here? And so I went with kind of an open mind. The thing that I discovered that kept me going is the fact that he won't talk about it. And that's when I thought, oh, wow, there must be something really here that is still emotionally resonant for him.

[NPR Guest]

And he never did. At any point in his papacy, he had that memoir come out, and he just glancingly referenced it in that one line.

[Daniel Burke]

He just calls it a dark night. And so, yeah, I was looking to that memoir to try to get some more insights to this period of his life, because it's still somewhat of a mystery to me, to be honest. But he even friends that it was, like, too painful for him to talk about. It was still like an open wound until the end of his life. He wrote that memoir when he was 87, right? Yeah.

[NPR Guest]

And it must have been hard to report then, though, given that you can't call him up and say, hey, tell me about this.

[Daniel Burke]

Right, exactly. I wrote him a letter, but he did not answer, of course. Right. But his friends, who. Who again, said he didn't talk about it, but still talked to him during this period and saw him. The story began to come together of what he was like at this time of his life, why he was sent away for this period, because he was creating division among the Jesuits. He had this view that priests should, he still said this as pope, should smell like their sheep, which means, like, be in touch with the people with the flock in. In Argentina, he meant that literally. He wanted Jesuits to work on farms, to help feed poor people, to milk the cows, to harvest the crops. And there were Jesuits in Argentina who didn't want to do that at all. They were intellectual. They wanted to spend their time teaching. And so there was basically split into two camps, the Pope Francis camp and the other camp. And because of those divisions, he was sent away 500 miles away from his birth city, Buenos Aires. And when he's there, as I said, he has no real job. He is supposed to kind of finish his doctoral dissertation, but like a lot of PhD students is not so interested in that. You know, inspiration's fire has dimmed a little bit. So he spends a lot of time praying, spends a lot of time reading, writing some essays. But he refers to it as a time of purification and as a dark night.

[Scott Detrow]

Is it fair to say, based on.

[NPR Guest]

The reporting you did, that the person who emerges from this period of time is different from the person who came into it?

[Daniel Burke]

Without a doubt, the people closest to him. And I managed to get in touch with Jesuits who were as close to him as friends can be, say that this was a different guy. The Jesuits take a vow of obedience, Right. And it's one thing, obedience, that vow is one thing. When you're on the top, when you're on the bottom, and you're getting Sent away from your community to this menial job, it's quite a different thing. The man who emerged was not as authoritarian. He's much more consulting with other people. He's much more willing to listen to other people and to compromise. So they said they notice a discernible change when he comes out of this. He is in some ways freer, but also much more chill about living with other people and being in community with other people.

[NPR Guest]

How did learning all of this information and putting the story together and better understanding this period of time that, again, he never wanted to talk about? How did that help you better understand the papacy going forward, the person going forward that you were covering?

[Daniel Burke]

Yeah. So he's got this amazing quote that I found that he told a politician who basically was voted out of office. And what he said to this politician is, you have to live your exile and you will come back kinder and more merciful and be prepared to serve your people. And when I saw that quote, I thought, oh, that has the ring of real experience behind it. Right. So he is clear and was clear throughout his papacy, that he was fallible. He said that he had made mistakes, and I think he had a keen sense from this period of what it's like to be fallible, of what it's like to be seen as an outcast, someone who's not wanted by the church or the community. And so he had a heart for those kind of people. If you see him talking to people on the margins, he's always welcoming them into the Church. He had this evocative phrase that he wanted it to be a field hospital and not a fortress. And so when I see him talk about mercy, so much for all manner of sinners. It's hard for me not to think of this period in his life when he was cast out because of his perceived sins.

[NPR Guest]

I think what's also interesting, kind of veering away from the story in itself, is that you see a different person come out of this experience than who went into it. You also saw a different person emerge from the conclave than the cardinal who went into it.

[Daniel Burke]

Right.

[NPR Guest]

Like, I think it is fair to say that Pope Francis was very different in a lot of ways than Cardinal Bergoglio. And as we all prepare to see a new person step out on the balcony and immediately Google their life history, how much of an open mind do you think people should keep in terms of how different somebody can be when they're suddenly in a new position of power, like a papacy?

[Daniel Burke]

That's a great question, because you talk to people in Argentina who knew him and even in Buenos Aires after this period. Right. He was kind of known as a sourpuss in the period of Cordoba that I wrote about. When he heard confessions, Catholics did not want to go to him. He was known as being strict. They called him Father Sour Face. And so they actually avoided him. Imagine that, avoiding the future pope. Just a parish in Argentina, not that guy. Exactly. And then you see this pope emerge, St. Peter's Basilica, smiling, kissing babies, so happy. Even his sister said the office changed the man. He seems freer. He seems happier, he smiles more. So I think, you know, Catholics talk a lot about the Holy Spirit, and there's some Catholics who say that his personality changes are only explainable in that kind of supernatural way, that he was so different when he became pope, so joyful. That was really a change.

[NPR Guest]

I'm wondering how you as a person were affected by this assignment and what, if any, lessons you drew out of it about how sometimes your life can take a wrong turn in terms of how you think it should go.

[Daniel Burke]

Yeah. I think what's striking about this moment in the pope's life, he was in his 50s, right. And he was a rising star in the Jesuit order. And then he's sent down to this little parish and has to kind of reckon with that. Like, what is my life now? What does it mean to me? He kind of had his purpose taken away from him. And so, you know, I'm approaching that age and I think about that a lot. I think a lot about both my own aspirations, but, like, the world doesn't care about my aspirations. Right. Like, there's going to be something that happens regardless. And I think it what I learned from him and what I learned from this period is so much is dependent on how you handle those situations. Right. Like, he could have gone into this period and really just moped and left the Jesuit order or left the church and not really used it in the way he did, which was to make himself a better person at the end of the day. And I think there's some there's some lessons in that for all of us, maybe.

[NPR Guest]

That is NPR religion editor Daniel Burke. Thank you so much.

[Daniel Burke]

Thank you, Scott.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Vincent Akovino and edited by Adam Raney. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

[NPR Sponsor]

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