Mary Louise Kelly (2:24)

Gabby Giffords was friends with Melissa Hortman. In a post on Instagram honoring Hortman, Giffords wrote, we must protect our democracy from those who try to destroy it with a gun. Consider this. The targeted killings of Representative Hortman and her husband last weekend are the latest in a cascade of political violence in this country. How is a gun safety advocate who's experienced these horrors firsthand grappling with this moment? From npr, I'm Mary Louise Kelly. It's Consider this from npr. Gabby Giffords has struggled with talking since she was shot outside A Safeway in Tucson in 2011. Since then, she's dedicated her life to fighting for gun safety through her advocacy group, Giffords. She joins me now along with Emma Brown, executive director of Giffords. Welcome to you both.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (3:28)

Thanks so much for having us.

Gabby Giffords (3:29)

Thank you very much.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:30)

And I want to add a note on how we are doing this interview. The Giffords team suggested that we pose specific questions in a specific way to enable Gabby Giffords to give fuller answers. So what you are about to hear is me asking some of those questions and then when needed, following up and asking additional questions of our own. I want to start with Melissa Hortman, who is the, who was the Minnesota lawmaker who was killed along with her husband, Gabby Giffords. I know that you were friends with her.

Gabby Giffords (4:03)

Yes, Melissa Horton. Perfect, perfect, perfect.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (4:07)

Yeah. Gabby met Melissa several years ago when we were working to pass gun safety legislation in Minnesota. So when she was the speaker of the Minnesota House, she and Governor Walz helped us get a red flag law passed in Minnesota as well as an expanded background checks law. It is a really devastating loss that obviously also hits very close to home for Gabby and for the origins of this organization.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:35)

Speaking of getting legislation passed, this month marks the three year anniversary of the passage of the bipartisan Safer Communities act, which enhanced background checks for young gun buyers. It increased funding for mental health services. It did a bunch of other things. Congresswoman, are you optimistic about further meaningful change on this issue?

Gabby Giffords (4:58)

I'm optimistic. It will be a long hard haul, but I'm optimistic.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (5:03)

You know, this week on Tuesday was actually also the 10 year anniversary of the Charleston shooting. So Gabby and I actually were in Charleston to mark the 10 years with Mother Emanuel AME Church and Gabby, Gabby got up at the service and Gabby, do you want to share what you said?

Gabby Giffords (5:22)

Hope and faith. Hope and faith. Hope and faith.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (5:27)

Hope and faith. We think about the tragedies that pile up from guns in America and often the last thing people think of is hope and faith. But it's hard. It is really hard, you know, but I was sitting there in that church on Tuesday and Gabby was up at the pulpit and she said hope and faith. And you could hear the room inhale.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:48)

Yeah. I started this conversation by talking about the email, the fundraiser email that I received from you, Congresswoman, this week. And you signed that email with courage, which says a lot. Do you, do you not ever want to give up?

Gabby Giffords (6:04)

No way, Jose. Move ahead to not look back. I hope are inspired to keep moving forward no matter what.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (6:14)

You know, Gabby says the words move Ahead a lot. It's part of a lot of her speeches, part of the words that she has relearned. And there's actually a little bit of an origin story to that, if you'd permit me telling it. When Gabi was a kid and a teenager, she loved theater, specifically musical theater. And one of her favorite shows was.

Gabby Giffords (6:33)

Annie the Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow, so you gotta hang on till tomorrow.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (6:40)

That one.

Gabby Giffords (6:40)

Come what may. Woohoo.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (6:42)

That's right, that one. Yeah.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:43)

That's very good clapping. Yeah.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (6:45)

Yeah. And so she and her mom, Gloria, would sing that to one another when she was a kid. And then when Gabby was shot, you know, she was in a coma for some days after the shooting, and her mom, Gloria, sat by her bed and held her hand and sang to her, you know, tomorrow, Tomorrow. And that essence, you know, of the hope that there may be a tomorrow that is different, the courage to move ahead, is really at the core of the work that we do and how Gabby approaches the work. And as a side note, the bullet that entered her brain impacted her ability to speak. You know, she wants to. She knows what she wants to say, but she can't get the words out. It actually didn't impact her musical ability.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:27)

No.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (7:27)

Which is a miracle. I can tell. So she has perfect. She has perfect tune, far better than I do. And her recall and her ability to sing has remained untouched.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:38)

And maintaining hope in the face of the shooting after shooting after shooting in this country is beautiful. I will note that the last time we spoke, that was three years ago, and that was in the aftermath of the shootings in Uvalde, Texas, that left 21 people dead. We are here today because of the deadly shootings in Minnesota. Investigators in Minnesota are still trying to figure out what the motive may have been. We do know that the man who has been charged had multiple guns in his vehicle.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (8:10)

He had multiple AK47s in his vehicle.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:12)

There is no evidence, though, that they were acquired illegally. There's no criminal history that would have raised a red flag and prevented. Prevented the purchase. What laws would have prevented this? What laws would you like to see changed?

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (8:25)

Yeah, it's a great question.

Gabby Giffords (8:26)

Better gun laws and background checks.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (8:30)

Yeah, that's right.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:31)

But there was nothing in his background that would have, as I say, set off a red flag.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (8:35)

Right, yeah. So there's still a lot to understand about the details of the shooting, but I think we need to ask ourselves, how is it that somebody who was that dangerous, who had a list of legislators on him, who was driving to their homes to hunt and kill them, was allowed to roll around with at least three AK47s and a handgun and military gear. So that, I think, is the fundamental question. And your question about what policies would have prevented this is a good one. And I think we'll know more about that as we get more details on this. And Gabby, I think one thing we would also just point out is that something that surprises people a lot about this issue is how much progress we've made. Just like you don't think about hope when you think about guns in America, you don't think about progress. But in actuality, you know, Gabby founded this organization 12 years ago. And in that period of time, we've passed over 700 laws at the state level to further gun safety. And you just heard her say better gun laws. And that's because, you know, in states that have stronger gun laws, fewer people are dying. That's been proven.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:38)

Now, last question, and this is for you, Gabby Giffords, and it's about the long view. It has been 14 years since you were injured. What have you learned from your experiences over those 14 years?

Gabby Giffords (9:51)

To be grateful for friends and family and to live every day to the fullest.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:59)

Hope. Hope.

Gabby Giffords (10:01)

Hope.

Mary Louise Kelly (10:01)

Yeah. That is former Arizona Democratic Congresswoman Gabby Giffords and Emma Brown, the executive director of Giffords, the advocacy group she co founded to promote gun safety. Thank you to you both.

Unnamed Giffords Team Member (10:16)

Thank you for having us.

Emma Brown (10:17)

Thank you.

Gabby Giffords (10:17)

Thank you. Thank you.

Mary Louise Kelly (10:21)

This episode was produced by Lauren Hodges and Mia Venkat with audio engineering by Ted Mevane. It was edited by Justine Kennan, Adam Raney and Nadia Lancy. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. Thanks to our CONSIDER THIS plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors. You can Learn more at plus.NPR.org It's Consider this from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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