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Ashley Parker (1:56)

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Sarah McCammon (2:09)

It's Consider this from npr. Stephen Miller is a polarizing character and we know that President Trump trusts him. So how far reaching is his role in our government?

Ashley Parker (2:20)

Everyone around the president knows that when a directive comes from Stephen Miller, they view it as coming from the president directly.

Sarah McCammon (2:27)

That's Ashley Parker, a staff writer for the Atlantic. Her new article is called the Wrath of Stephen Miller. I spoke to her earlier and I started by asking her just how powerful Stephen Miller is in the administration.

Ashley Parker (2:40)

He's incredibly powerful. Steve Bannon and other people jokingly call him the prime minister. And I think the public in general, especially from the first Term associates Stephen Miller with Trump's hardline immigration policies. And that's certainly true. He has a big, big hand in immigration. But one thing we were trying to capture with this profile is that immigration is not the only thing that Stephen Miller has his hands in. And not just hands, but has a major, major role on everything from immigration to homeland security to law enforcement in our nation's streets, to foreign policy, to trade, and even to education. And a lot of the controversial policies coming out of the administration are being dreamed up by Stephen Miller or executed by Stephen Miller.

Sarah McCammon (3:34)

You spoke with several folks within the administration about Miller's style, and you describe him as, quote, the pulsing human ID of a president who is already almost pure id. What does that mean, Ashley? And how does that style shape the way that the administration is functioning?

Ashley Parker (3:53)

So Stephen Miller, one thing he's very clear about is that he views his job as. As taking what President Trump wants to do and executing it ruthlessly and urgently. And what's interesting is there are areas where Stephen, and Trump has joked about this in public is far more extreme than even President Trump. And so Stephen, behind the scenes, will very vigorously argue his case, make his points, make his pitch. But once Trump has decided something, he's not like some of the people, especially in the first term, Right. Who would tell Trump all the reasons he can't do it or why it's the wrong thing, or try to quietly undermine him. Once Donald Trump has decided what he wants to do, Stephen is going to go out there and do it.

Sarah McCammon (4:43)

But you talk about Miller as somebody who has a very strong point of view. He casts political disagreements as this existential struggle between good and evil. For example, I mean, how much is Miller shaping or trying to shape the presidency viewpoint versus reflecting or amplifying Trump?

Ashley Parker (5:04)

Well, again, it's a combination of both. Right. For starters, Stephen Miller would not be able to work for someone with whom he was not broadly aligned. Because one of the things that people told us that they really like about Stephen Miller in the administration, and this might seem a little counterintuitive, is that he's a zealot. They said, we always know where he stands. That said, in some instances, he is more hardline, especially on immigration, than President Trump is. And in those instances, again, he very intensely and very forcefully makes his case in private. And so I do think there is some shaping of the president there, just because we know President Trump is often persuaded by the last person he talked to or by people he talks to frequently. But again, at the end of the day, There have been some disagreements between the two of them. And when there are those disagreements, Stephen Miller does go out and do what the president wants, regardless of his personal views. But there's not that much daylight between them.

Sarah McCammon (6:10)

A decade ago, Stephen Miller was a speechwriter for Trump. What led to his ascendance between the two Trump administrations?

Ashley Parker (6:18)

I mean, he was still incredibly powerful in the first Trump term. The difference was the same guardrails that kind of constrained President Trump in that first term, also constrained Stephen Miller. There were people at the Department of Homeland Security who, when he did something that they felt was too extreme or was morally reprehensible, would not follow through on his directive. And they knew that at the time when John Kelly was leading that agency, he would protect them. All of those guardrails and all of those people are gone now. And the second thing is much like this more emboldened, unfettered, unchained President Trump we're seeing now, Stephen Miller underwent the same process. And so he basically spent his four years out of power working quietly and privately to ensure that if he and Trump came back to office, he would have all the levers and tools of the federal bureaucracy at his disposal.

Sarah McCammon (7:22)

Before I let you go, Ashley, what is it that you want people to understand about Stephen Miller and about his role in the Trump administration at this moment?

Ashley Parker (7:32)

I think it's important to understand a couple things. How close to the president he is, just how broad his purview is, and how he has his hand in policies that people might not expect, like the Trump administration's war against higher education and against Harvard. Right. People, again, they think of immigration, they maybe think of foreign policy, but they don't necessarily think of all the other areas where Stephen Miller is playing a role. And I think the other thing that's important to understand about Stephen Miller is he's confided in friends and colleagues that he does like playing, playing this role of the gleeful contrarian or the troll who makes liberals heads explode. But at this point, the caricature that we see on TV and interviews on CNN and elsewhere has now become his true character. There is not a real difference between public and private Stephen Miller in the intensity of his convictions.

Sarah McCammon (8:32)

Ashley Parker is a staff writer for the Atlantic. Her new article is called the Wrath of Stephen Miller. Ashley, thanks so much for your time.

Ashley Parker (8:39)

Oh, of course. Thank you for doing this.

Sarah McCammon (8:42)

This episode was produced by Mia Venkat. It was edited by Sarah Robbins and Rebecca Metzler. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's consider this from NPR I'm Sarah McCammon. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider.

Ashley Parker (9:05)

This sponsor free through Amazon Music.

Sarah McCammon (9:07)

Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism.

Ashley Parker (9:10)

And get consider this plus@plus.NPR.org that's plus.NPR.org.