A (3:22)

It's consider this from NPR News. Chuck Wexler is the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum and a police reform expert. He says the Border Patrol and ICE agents operating in Minneapolis aren't using the kinds of de escalating tactics that local police have been using for at least a decade. Well, Wexler watched the video of Customs and Border Patrol agents shooting Alex Preddy. I asked him how federal agents should be trained to de escalate a potentially violent situation.

B (3:51)

I mean, I think this, this is a very important question because in Minneapolis they've had three agent involved shootings in the last three weeks. If a police chief had three officer involved shootings in three weeks, I can tell you they would be number one. They'd say, what are we learning from these situations? How can we handle these differently? It's very important, for example, that departments have strong policies and tactics. Very important in all of these situations. In Minneapolis, tactics have played a role.

A (4:24)

How do you assess ICE's policies and tactics when it comes to these kinds of situations?

B (4:29)

Well, I mean, this is a really good question because this is an urban environment. This is different than most of the environments that ICE and Border Patrol face. And in an urban environment, you have, you know, you have to know the community. You have to be able to work with the community. You know, American police have faced the daunting challenge of officer involved shootings over the last 10 years. And one of the things they've learned is sometimes you have to slow things down, use time and distance and communicate. They, there's very little communication in that video that you see. And sometimes you have to take a tactical pause, step back. If I was looking at this from the ICE perspective, I'd say, look, we've had three agents involved shootings the last three weeks. They all involve trying to make some kind of arrest. What can we do? What can we learn from these incidents? This is ultimately about the sanctity of human life. Two people have died and, and you know, what could happen too. The other side of this is you're endangering ICE agents too. People will look at that and say, well, we need to figure out a way to ratchet down the tension. What do both sides need to do? And I think it starts with, you know, a tactical pause, stepping back and trying to assess tactics de escalation.

A (5:48)

I have to ask, I mean, as you know, this is the third ICE involved shooting in several weeks, the second fatal shooting. Is this a matter of a Need for better training? Or is this about the tone that's coming from the administration?

B (6:02)

Look, what would it take for both sides to ratchet it down? But I think that starts honestly with ICE sort of saying, look, let's step back and let's look at how we're doing these kind of cases. How can we do them differently? And if this was a local police department, they would be reaching out to the community. They would get the community involved. They would say, we need you, we need to build trust. But when you have federal agency agents coming into a community, they can sometimes come off as an occupying army. And in American policing, that's not what we've learned. We know, you know, communication, trust, all of those things are essential.

A (6:42)

I want to talk about the optics. We're seeing some of these images coming from Minneapolis, the way that federal ICE agents are presenting themselves. They're wearing masks. They're wearing these nondescript colors, almost a camouflage look. Whereas you see images of local Minneapolis police in their uniforms, sometimes wearing yellow safety vests. What is the significance of the way that law enforcement officials dress? And what kind of a message does it send to the public about what they're trying to achieve?

B (7:13)

I mean, that's a good point. American police have recognized it's important for them to have their name, their ID to be visible, to communicate. American police wear body worn cameras. All of these, these efforts have been to try to regain trust and legitimacy with the community. I think when you go into these situations, masks, it creates this image somehow whatever they're doing is not legitimate. And look, they have a difficult job. I don't envy ICE agents. I think, though, when you put them in these positions and you put masks on their face and they're not communicating, they have no relationship with the community. It really becomes almost, you know, a recipe for disaster.

A (7:57)

That was Chuck Wexler. He's the executive director of the Police Executive Research Forum. Thanks so much.

B (8:03)

Thank you.

A (8:05)

This episode was produced by Henry Larson. It was edited by Ahmad Damen. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.

D (8:19)

Foreign.

A (8:23)

It's consider this from NPR. I'm Sarah McCammon.

C (8:30)

This message comes from Cachava. It feels good to connect to your simpler side, simplifying your wellness with Caciava's all in one nutrition shake. Feels good too, with 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber, greens and more. No fillers, just the highest quality ingredients. Simplify your nutrition@cachava.com and use code. NPR New customers get $20 off an order of two bags or more now through January 31st. That's K A C H A V A.com code NPR Want to hear this.

D (9:05)

Podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism. And get consider this plus@plus.NPR.org that's plus.NPR.org.