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Scott Detrow (3:10)

It's Consider this from npr. In just one year, the Trump administration has pushed the window of what is possible in politics so far that his opposition just seems exhausted. Ashley Parker wrote about this for the Atlantic. Ashley, thanks for joining us.

Ashley Parker (3:24)

Thanks for having me.

Interviewer (3:25)

I want to start with the title of your essay. The president has had this term for critics for years now that they suffer from Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Scott Detrow (3:32)

And you wrote that there's been so.

Interviewer (3:34)

Little meaningful resistance this term that we might think about Trump Exhaustion Syndrome instead. Can you tell me more about what you're thinking about with that?

Ashley Parker (3:43)

Yeah. What I was really trying to explore with this piece one year into his second term was sort of the boiling frog theory of American politics. And I should say up front that this theory is apocryphal. It's not actually true, but I think it works for our purposes.

Scott Detrow (3:59)

Yes.

Ashley Parker (4:00)

Which is the way it goes is that if you drop a frog in boiling water, it will hop out. But if you put a frog in lukewarm water and slowly turn up the heat, it will not know to jump out because the changes will be so incremental and gradual and it will boil to death.

Scott Detrow (4:16)

I think you also gave a really.

Interviewer (4:17)

Good example when you talked about the boiling frog. You walk through the series of events leading up to the seizure of Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela.

Scott Detrow (4:26)

Can you recap kind of how we.

Interviewer (4:28)

Got from point A to point B.

Scott Detrow (4:29)

Without any of the steps feeling overly dramatic?

Interviewer (4:32)

Sure.

Ashley Parker (4:32)

So it really starts back in 2015 when Trump comes to national prominence as a politician in a campaign launch speech that demonizes immigrants broadly as criminals, rapists, not the best among US people who are bringing drugs across the border. So he has been getting the country comfortable for a long time with the idea that undocumented immigrants are dangerous and they're a problem. But going to this term with Venezuela, he uses a fairly obscure Wartime Powers act, the Alien Enemies act, to essentially declare that we are at war with the Venezuela, specifically a Venezuelan gang trende Aragua. And because we are at war with them, we're able to take certain wartime liberties to deport Venezuelans.

Interviewer (5:27)

And a lot of opinion polls along the way showed that by and large, a lot of these steps did have broad, if Not a majority. You know, from time to time, a good chunk of Americans were on board with each of these steps.

Ashley Parker (5:38)

Exactly. Now, there might be images they see of what this actually looks like that they kind of cringe at, but, yeah, broadly, they support this. Then he begins a series of strikes on boats in the Caribbean and East Pacific Oceans off the coast of Venezuela. And, yes, a lot of these boats that are targeted, there are drugs on them, but it is not, as the President has claimed, you know, a huge mob or cartel boss headed to the United States in some cases. These are small fishing boats, people who are petty criminals bringing small amounts of cocaine not to the United States, but to neighboring islands like Trinidad. But again, I was talking to someone in the White House, and they said, look, if you ask the average American, should we blow up a boat with drugs on it headed to the United States, they say, yes.

Interviewer (6:31)

And that all sets the stage for the most recent seizure of another country's president who's brought to the United States and put on trial. And maybe, as Steve Bannon put it, a lot of people who read the Atlantic are upset about this, but maybe Americans are actually on board with a lot of this. And the pushback to steps toward authoritarianism is a lot different than maybe what we thought it would be in high school social studies.

Ashley Parker (6:56)

Yeah, that's exactly right. A slide towards authoritarianism. When you talk to experts about this, including some of my colleagues, is people sort of imagine it like the movie version where there's men in jackboots marching in the streets and tanks rolling. And that's not really how it often starts. It's sort of a slow slide of getting people comfortable with things that they never thought they would be comfortable with.

Scott Detrow (7:22)

I mean, what is your sense?

Interviewer (7:24)

A year into this second term, reporting this story and many other stories, do.

Scott Detrow (7:29)

You have a sense of what you.

Interviewer (7:30)

Think Trump's end goals are? Is it, I want to tear down democratic norms, or is it something more straightforward of I want to be a notable famous president? Or is it even more moment to moment and topic to topic than that? Like, how do you think about this?

Ashley Parker (7:43)

I don't think he has a particular pointed desire to tear down democratic norms. Essentially, he wants to do what he wants to do unconstrained by laws and norms in the Constitution. And when he took office the first time, Congress could prevent that from happening. Sometimes a single senator, sometimes a single senator from his own party could foil something he cared deeply about, and that things like the Geneva Conventions and native alliances could get in the way with what he wanted to do. And in many ways, these guardrails worked. And in his second term, he is just unconstrained in doing what he wants to do. And if it means shattering democratic norms, he's more than happy to bulldoze through them. But that's sort of an inadvertent symptom, not the end goal.

Interviewer (8:38)

Yeah.

Scott Detrow (8:39)

Ashley Parker is a staff writer at the Atlantic.

Interviewer (8:42)

Thank you so much.

Scott Detrow (8:42)

Yeah.

Ashley Parker (8:43)

Thank you.

Scott Detrow (8:44)

This episode was produced by Alejandra Marquez Hanse with audio engineering by Tiffany Vera Castro. It was edited by Patrick Jaron Wadanana.

Interviewer (8:52)

Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.

Scott Detrow (8:57)

It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

Mint Mobile Advertiser (9:03)

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