In recent cases, immigration enforcement has turned deadly. How did we get here?

Summary

Podcast Summary: “In recent cases, immigration enforcement has turned deadly. How did we get here?”

Podcast: Consider This from NPR
Date: July 14, 2026
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Gil Kerlikowske (Former U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner, former Seattle Police Chief)
Duration: ~10 minutes (Ads/Intros/Outros excluded)

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Episode Overview

This episode of NPR’s Consider This takes a focused look at a troubling surge in fatal shootings involving federal immigration agents, especially under the current administration. Host Scott Detrow seeks to contextualize these incidents, asking how law enforcement training and tactics might be contributing—and what reforms or immediate changes could prevent further loss of life. Detrow interviews Gil Kerlikowske, a seasoned law enforcement official and former CBP Commissioner, for his expert perspective.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Rising Toll: Recent Fatalities Involving Immigration Agents

• Notable Incidents:

  • Four individuals (Joan Sebastian Duran Guerrero, Lorenzo Salgado Araujo, Alex Preddy, Renee Goode) have been shot and killed by federal immigration agents this year alone.
  • These victims include both U.S. citizens and immigrants, with incidents occurring during traffic stops and operations labeled “Operation Metro Surge” by the Trump administration.
  • [00:00-00:55]

• Political Reactions:

  • House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries condemns ICE’s actions:

    “Billions of taxpayer dollars are being used by ICE to brutalize and kill American citizens and violently target law abiding immigrant families and communities.”
    — Hakeem Jeffries, [00:36]

  • Senator Angus King (I-ME) questions ICE’s presence:

    “Why is ICE there in the first place?...This isn’t about the worst of the worst. The whole premise of this thing is phony. They shouldn’t have been there in the first place.”
    — Angus King, [01:22–01:39]

2. Is This Normal? Expert Perspective on the Spike in Deadly Encounters

• Unprecedented Numbers:

  • Gil Kerlikowske expresses alarm at this year’s numbers, emphasizing that such a spike in fatal encounters by a federal agency is atypical.

    “It's far outside the numbers that would have occurred in the past. So it, it would be alarming. And if you were a police chief in a big city, you would be…very alarmed.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [03:40]

• Lack of Precedent for Federal Agencies:

  • No “expected rate” exists for fatal encounters, but this surge is far above historical norms.
    — [04:03]

3. Faulty Tactics and Training

• Problematic Law Enforcement Tactics:

  • Kerlikowske is particularly concerned by tactics such as “boxing in” vehicles—a step reserved for felony stops with clear probable cause, not routine enforcement.

    “All too often these same tactics are being used, and they're even not against the target that they were intended.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [05:02]

  • Officers standing in front of vehicles and putting hands inside vehicles are basic safety violations, contrary to standard police training.
    — [05:02]

• ‘Vehicle as Weapon’ Justifications:

  • Incidents are often justified by claims that individuals tried to use vehicles as weapons. Kerlikowske counters that different tactics could almost always prevent such escalations:

    “Absolutely. And we've seen that the evidence is abundantly clear in cities across the country where they have banned…shooting inside at a vehicle, an occupied vehicle…you have seen arrests made, you've seen encounters occur in which violence doesn't happen.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [06:11]

4. Systemic Training Gaps

• Misaligned Expertise:

  • Border Patrol and ICE agents are not trained or equipped to police urban environments.

    “The Border Patrol works best on the border or within 25 miles of the border. They have no experience or expertise policing a city. ICE is very much the same way. That is not their training.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [06:55]

  • Even with additional training, ICE and Border Patrol agents cannot easily match the comprehensive city-policing preparation local police officers receive.
    — [06:55]

5. The Role of Body Cameras

• Body Cam Utility and Gaps:
  • Body camera footage helped clarify details in at least one fatal incident (Alex Preddy), but not all agents had cameras—especially in Houston.
  • Most officers find cameras beneficial, as they often vindicate their actions.

    “Police departments, you have officers that won’t go out on patrol unless they do have a body camera because they know that it’s going to in most cases support their actions.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [07:36]

6. Pausing Non-Urgent Stops: Real Reform or Election Optics?

• ICE’s Stated Response:

  • Senator Angus King reports that ICE will pause non-urgent vehicle stops.
    — [08:15]

  • Kerlikowske is skeptical of the agency’s motives, suspecting election year calculations:

    “I’d love to say they’re doing it for the right reasons. I’m just not sure that is.”
    — Gil Kerlikowske, [08:30]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Gil Kerlikowske, on the gravity of recent events:

  “For this federal agency to have this number of fatal encounters is alarming and it should be concerning to everyone, particularly given the tactics that have been used that have led to these shootings.”
  — [04:03]

• Kerlikowske, on ICE and Border Patrol urban activity:

  “They haven’t been trained to police in an urban environment… You can put them through weeks of training and it wouldn’t even begin to approximate what a city police officer goes through.”
  — [06:55]

• On the optics of ICE’s operational changes:

  “…these Kent State kind of videos are going to come up again and again in November. So I’d love to say they’re doing it for the right reasons. I’m just not sure that is.”
  — [08:30]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–00:55 — Introduction, listing of recent victims, context from Hakeem Jeffries
• 01:22–01:39 — Senator Angus King’s criticism of ICE operations
• 03:07–03:52 — Interview begins; Kerlikowske’s alarm at the surge in fatal shootings
• 04:58–05:52 — Faulty tactics: “Boxing in,” not following policing best practices
• 06:11–06:44 — Preventable incidents; banning certain dangerous tactics
• 06:55–07:23 — Training gaps for ICE/Border Patrol in urban policing
• 07:36–08:15 — Body cameras' impact
• 08:30–09:01 — ICE’s operational pause; Kerlikowske’s skepticism about the motives

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Conclusion

This episode of Consider This lays bare the risks and consequences of militarized immigration enforcement, underscored by a sharp rise in lethal encounters. Through expert analysis, the discussion connects operational patterns and training gaps to these outcomes—raising alarms and advocating for better policies and accountability. While some reforms (like a pause on non-urgent stops) are emerging, questions linger about whether these are genuine steps forward or politically motivated gestures.

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Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this where every day we go deep on one big news story today, understanding how immigration enforcement can turn deadly. Joan Sebastian Duran Guerrero was 26. Lorenzo Salgado Araujo was 52. Alex Preddy and Renee Goode were both 37. They were all shot and killed by federal immigration agents this year.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

Donald Trump promised that ICE enforcement in this country would target the worst of the worst.

[Scott Detrow]

That's House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries speaking during a press conference Monday.

[Hakeem Jeffries]

But instead, billions of taxpayer dollars are being used by ICE to brutalize and kill American citizens and violently target law abiding immigrant families and communities.

[Scott Detrow]

Pretty and Good, both US Citizens died weeks apart in January in Minneapolis amid what the Trump administration called Operation Metro Surge. Fast forward six months to July and two more deaths involving immigration agents. Salgado Araujo, an immigrant from Mexico, was killed on July 7 during a traffic stop in Houston. Then on Monday, Daron Guerrero, who, who's from Columbia, was shot and killed in Maine, also during a traffic stop.

[Angus King]

Why is ICE there in the first place?

[Scott Detrow]

Senator Angus King, an independent from Maine,

[Interviewer]

told NPR they arrested over 200 people

[Angus King]

in Maine last winter. 19 of them had criminal records. This isn't about the worst of the worst. The whole premise of this thing is phony. They shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this. There is a lot we don't know about the specifics of these latest shootings. But to what extent is law enforcement training a factor? And can anything be done to keep people safe? We put those questions to a former U.S. customs and Border Protection commissioner and police chief. From NPR. I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this from npr. There have been at least nine deaths tied to immigration enforcement actions since President Trump returned to the White House. Four of them have been this year. So what is going on? Is this normal? Should this be happening? These are just a few of the questions we're going to put now to Gil Kurlikowski. He was U.S. customs and Border Protection commissioner during the Obama administration. He also served as Seattle's chief of police.

[Interviewer]

Welcome.

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

Let's start with this. Does the string of fatal shootings this

[Scott Detrow]

year by federal immigration officers, does it alarm you?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Well, it's far outside the numbers that would have occurred in the past. So it, it would be alarming. And if you were a police chief in a big city, you would be, you would be very alarmed.

[Scott Detrow]

Obviously, nobody ever wants anybody to be

[Interviewer]

shot and killed by officers.

[Scott Detrow]

But what is, what is, what is normal? What, what is it the expected rate and how does this year compare to that?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Well, there's no real expected rate because it can vary much by the city, by the density, by the population, ET etc. But for this federal agency to have this number of fatal encounters is alarming and it should be concerning to everyone, particularly given the tactics that have been used that have led to these shootings.

[Scott Detrow]

I'm curious, do you think it's more of the tactics that are leading to

[Interviewer]

these incidents or just the fact that so many more actions are taking place?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Well, have a lot of actions taking place, and that means that you've got more potential for a violent and encounter. But when people examine, experts like myself and others examine the tactics, they are so far outside the standard practices and policies of any professional law enforcement agency that it shocks the conscience.

[Interviewer]

Walk me through some of those specific tactics that you're most concerned about.

[Gil Kurlikowski]

So you don't approach a vehicle and make a traffic stop by boxing it in. In law enforcement, that would be called a felony stop. That means that you have probable cause, that that person in that car is wanted for a felony, and that's the kind of tactic that you would use. All too often these same tactics are being used, and they're even not against the target that they were intended. The other thing is that law enforcement officers are trained in communities, rural and suburban and a city not to get in front of a vehicle, not to put your hands inside a vehicle. And yet we see repeatedly these ICE agents and Border Patrol agents stand in front of the vehicle.

[Interviewer]

And several times now, including in some of these latest incidents, the initial justification from ice, from Homeland Security is that the person in the vehicle tried to use it as a weapon. That's the allegation do you think that entire incident could be avoided if officers were taking a different approach to these vehicles?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Absolutely. And we've seen that the evidence is abundantly clear in cities across the country where they have banned and the shooting inside at a vehicle, an occupied vehicle, they have banned that. And you have seen arrests made, you've seen encounters occur in which violence doesn't happen. And so we know that the work that is done in these big cities could be appropriate for ice, but they don't seem to be paying attention from

[Interviewer]

your point of view, with your expert vantage point.

[Scott Detrow]

Do you think this is because the officers involved have not been trained, or do you think this is a conscious

[Interviewer]

decision to use these more aggressive tactics?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

I think that they haven't been trained to police in an urban environment. The Border Patrol works best on the border or within 25 miles of the border. They have no experience or expertise policing a city. ICE is very much the same way. That is not their training. And frankly, you can put them through weeks of training and it wouldn't even begin to approximate what a city police officer goes through.

[Scott Detrow]

What difference do body cameras make?

[Interviewer]

Obviously, video footage made such a difference in figuring out what actually happened with Alex Preddy. And then we learned in this Houston incident that the officers didn't have body cameras.

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Well, the body cameras in police departments across the country. And when I was commissioner at cbp, we tested them with the Border Patrol. And although the technology wasn't quite up to what it could, what it should be, the focus group that I talked to was the Border Patrol agents thought they were fine because in the vast majority of circumstances, the body camera video would support what they were saying. And police departments, you have officers that won't go out on patrol unless they do have a body camera because they know that it's going to in most cases support their actions.

[Interviewer]

One specific step that's apparently taking place is that according to Senator Angus King, he told NPR that U.S. immigration Customs Enforcement is going to pause non urgent vehicle stops for now. Do you think that is a, is a solid step forward? Do you think that makes a difference?

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Well, ever since Los Angeles, Chicago, Portland, Minneapolis, they have really tried to do their best to take themselves off the front pages. And of course that's, I think, not for any particular reason other than that they're very concerned about the midterm elections. And these videos that have gone viral, these Kent State kind of videos are going to come up again and again in November. So I'd love to say they're doing it for the right reasons. I'm just not sure that is Gil

[Interviewer]

Kurlikowski, U.S. customs and Border Protection commissioner under President Obama. Thank you so much for your time.

[Gil Kurlikowski]

Thank you.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Vincent Akovino, Caden Mills and Karen Zamora, with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. Our director is Jonas Adams. It was edited by Christopher Intagliotta and Tin Beat Ermeus. Our interim executive producer is Courtney Dornick. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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