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Scott Detrow (2:47)

feels like the news changes every hour. Well, NPR has a podcast that does that too. NPR News now brings you a fresh five minute episode every hour of the day with the latest, most important headlines in episodes that are clear, fact based and easy to digest. Listen to NPR News now on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. It's consider this from npr. President Trump has repeatedly threatened to destroy civilian infrastructure across Iran if the country doesn't come to the negotiating table, including the country's desalination plans vital for drinking water in the arid gulf. This week, Kuwaiti authorities said Iran had attacked one of their desalination plants. Deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure is a war crime under international law. So how can allegations of war crimes fly by without accountability? Gabor Rona is going to tackle this big question with us. He directs the Law and Armed Conflict Project at Cardozo Law School and previously was a legal advisor to the Red Cross. Welcome to the show.

Gabor Rona (3:56)

Thank you.

Scott Detrow (3:57)

I want to start with this. Let's hear something from White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt, who was asked about the president's comments and here's what she said. Of course, this administration and the United States armed forces will always act within the confines of the law. But with respect to achieving the full objectives of Operation Epic Fury, President Trump is going to move forward unabated. That's what the press secretary says. The Pentagon has repeatedly said the United States does not deliberately target civilians, and yet the president is talking about attacking a desalination plant. Would that be a war crime?

Gabor Rona (4:30)

Absolutely, Scott, both under international law and US Law. You know, we have a war crimes act that prohibits prosecution precisely this kind of thing. It would also be a violation of laws against terrorism. It's prohibited to engage in attacks in armed conflict where the primary purpose is to spread terror among the civilian population. If you're targeting a desalination plant, then that would be an act of terrorism.

Scott Detrow (4:58)

Help us understand a little bit more just because I think you cannot over explain this enough. Right. Like here's an example. In the early days of the war, it seems like the United States accidentally bombed a girls school. What is the difference between something like that and deliberately attacking civilian infrastructure like a desalination plant?

Gabor Rona (5:16)

So the difference is that even though one might have been mistaken and the other intentional, under U.S. law, both intentional and mistaken attacks that aren't pursuant to due diligence can be war crimes.

Scott Detrow (5:33)

So US Law is clear cut on this. International law norm seems to be clear cut on this is that a fair way to understand this?

Gabor Rona (5:39)

I think that's right.

Scott Detrow (5:40)

Given that, what do you make of the fact that both sides in this war have been so blatant and straightforward about targeting and attacking civilian infrastructure like this?

Gabor Rona (5:50)

One of the things that's well settled in international law is that a violation by one side does not justify a violation on the other side. The moral reason why the US should not follow Iran's lead is simply do we want to determine our moral standing according to the standards of those that routinely violate international law?

Scott Detrow (6:18)

I want to play another clip of a White House official for you. This is something that top advisor Stephen Miller said to CNN earlier this year. It's a comment I have thought a lot about in a lot of contexts. Here he was talking about the US Military seizing Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. You can talk all you want about international niceties and everything else, but we live in a world in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, that is governed by force, that is governed by power. I believe Miller was also talking about Greenland and whether the US Was going to move to seize Greenland in that interview. But the broader point he was making was the United States is the most powerful country in the world, and if it wants to do something, nobody can stop it. What do you make of that?

Gabor Rona (7:08)

Well, you know, at one point, Germany was the most powerful country in the world. And as a result of Germany's aggressive conduct, there was a war. And as a result of that war, there were war crime tribunals. And at Nuremberg, German war criminals were tried fairly. Many were found guilty. Some received long prison sentences. Others were executed similarly for war criminals in the Far east after the Second World War. Bottom line, Stephen Miller doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't understand that the United States is merely one cog, albeit a very powerful cog, but still one cog throughout a long legal history that states have worked hard and for many years to establish, to prevent and to punish war crimes. The United States cannot make them go away. I think it is first of all false and second of all very dangerous for Americans own interests to claim that the only thing that holds us back is the limits of our own power. The world doesn't work that way.

Scott Detrow (8:24)

President Trump said something similar around that time talking to the New York Times. He said he was only restrained by his own morals when it came to what he felt he could or couldn't do. Given that, and I do want to make sure we've got you in full context, given what you said before, I'M curious, do you worry the United States is veering toward the direction of, you know, as you put it, World War II Germany, in terms of some of the decisions that the president and top officials are making?

Gabor Rona (8:48)

Well, yes and no. I think if the administration were to have its own way, then that's exactly where we would be headed. But the world is a very different place now than it was in 1939. It's true that after the Second World War, the UN Security Council was designated to be the ultimate arbiter in matters of peace and security, and it has done a fair job in that respect in many contexts. There's been so much in the realm of law and accountability that has been established in response to the Second World War. The world is a very different place now than it was when Nazi Germany had its way.

Scott Detrow (9:33)

Let me bring this back to the specific instance that we started this conversation with. If the United States goes forward and bombs, critical energy infrastructure, bombs, desalination plants, the types of infrastructure that civilians need to live in a region like the Middle east, what do you think would happen next? What would you want to see happen next?

Gabor Rona (9:54)

The U.S. war Crimes act has no statute of limitation for crimes that result in death. Now, obviously, there's not going to be any accountability during this administration, but there could very well be accountability even under US Law in the next administration or sometime in the future. Aside from that, there are countries that are lining up right now. Spain and Italy, for example, just in the last couple of days, have, have said they refuse to allow US Flyovers in connection with the Iran conflict. This is international law in action. These states are in compliance with their obligations under the Geneva Conventions. What I think will happen if the US Goes ahead with a very deliberate series of war crimes is that you will see other states finally lining up explicitly to draw that line in the sand and say, we. We will not tolerate this. We will not cooperate with this. And that, I think, will also eventually mean that those countries could commence prosecutions for violations of the laws of armed conflict against Americans.

Scott Detrow (11:09)

That was Gabor Rona. He is the director of the Law and Armed Conflict Project at Cardozo Law School. We reached out to the White House about Rona's comments, specifically about attacks on civilian infrastructure, being warned war crime and German war criminals after World War II. In a statement, the White House pointed to Iran, saying the country has committed, quote, egregious human rights abuses for 47 years and that President Trump's military campaign is making the entire region safer and more stable. This episode was produced by Henry Larson and Jeffrey Pierre with audio engineering by Peter Helena. It was edited by John Ketchum. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. And before we go, just one more reminder to take a couple of minutes to fill out the NPR News podcast Listener Survey. You can find it at npr.org SpringSurvey It's a short list of questions. It's anonymous, and it would really help us to hear from you, even if you've done one of these in the past. That's npr.org springsurvey the link is in our episode notes. Thank you so much. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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