Iran's nuclear sites got bombed. North Korea? It's another story

Summary

Consider This from NPR: Iran's Nuclear Sites Got Bombed. North Korea? It's Another Story

Release Date: June 28, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow
Contributor: Anthony Kuhn, NPR Correspondent in Seoul

---

Introduction

In this episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Scott Detrow delves into the complexities of nuclear diplomacy, contrasting the United States' approach to Iran with its interactions with North Korea. Drawing from Anthony Kuhn's on-the-ground experiences in the Korean Peninsula, the discussion highlights the evolving landscape of international relations and the formidable challenges in addressing nuclear proliferation.

---

Historical Context: Trump and Kim’s 2019 Summit

The episode opens by revisiting the pivotal moment on February 27, 2019, when then-President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un met in Hanoi, Vietnam. Amidst lingering tensions and past hostilities—where Kim had once derided Trump as a "dotard" and Trump had vowed severe retaliation against North Korea—the two leaders presented a facade of camaraderie.

Anthony Kuhn reflects on the atmosphere during the summit:

"The city was abuzz with motorcades of various government whizzing back and forth. Everybody in Hanoi seemed to be trying to cash in on it."
[00:17]

Despite the hopeful interactions, the summit concluded prematurely without a concrete agreement. Kuhn describes it as:

"It was basically the collapse of diplomacy."
[01:07]

---

Comparing Nuclear Approaches: Iran vs. North Korea

The conversation shifts to the divergent strategies the U.S. has employed concerning Iran and North Korea's nuclear ambitions. While the Trump administration undertook direct military action against Iran's nuclear facilities, the approach towards North Korea has remained markedly different.

Key Differences Highlighted by Kuhn:

• Nuclear Arsenal Size: North Korea possesses an estimated 50 atomic bombs, a significant increase from the 20-30 bombs during Trump's first term.

[04:12]

• Missile Capabilities: North Korea's missiles can reach not just U.S. military bases in Asia but also the U.S. Homeland, making a preemptive strike highly improbable.

[04:37]

• Diplomatic Relations: Unlike Iran, which had no nuclear arsenal, North Korea's developed capabilities and strategic alliances—particularly with Russia and China—complicate diplomatic efforts.

Kuhn emphasizes that these differences mean that the U.S. must navigate a more precarious and entrenched relationship with North Korea:

"If anything, the message to North Korea was that when they decided to build a nuclear arsenal, that was a wise investment."
[04:38]

---

Challenges in Covering North Korea

Reporting on North Korea presents unique obstacles due to the regime's stringent control over information and movement. Kuhn shares his insights and experiences, shedding light on the intricacies of journalism in such a closed-off nation.

Strategies for Effective Reporting:

• Utilizing Defectors: Engaging with North Korean defectors provides valuable, albeit not wholly representative, perspectives on everyday life within the country.

[05:25]

• Analyzing State Media: Despite being a tool for propaganda, North Korea's state media offers clues about internal dynamics and governmental stances. Learning to "read between the lines" is crucial.

[05:25]

• Field Observations: Visiting areas like the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ), the Chinese border city of Dandong, and regions in Russia where North Korean laborers reside can offer tangible insights into the nation's reality.

[05:25]

Personal Anecdote: Kuhn recounts his remarkable visit to Pyongyang in 2008 with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. This cultural exchange revealed commonalities between North and South Koreans, fostering hope for future reunification despite political divides.

"For all the differences and for all the ways in which the two Koreas... they're still both Korean."
[07:14]

---

Recent Developments: Renewed Attempts at Diplomacy

The discussion returns to contemporary efforts to reinitiate dialogue between the U.S. and North Korea. Recently, President Trump attempted to send another letter to Kim Jong Un, signaling a desire to resume negotiations.

However, this initiative faced immediate rejection:

"North Korean diplomats refused to accept the letters, so they never made it to Kim Jong Un."
[08:47]

Reasons for Kim’s Rejection:

• Enhanced Military Capabilities: With an expanded nuclear arsenal and missile technology, North Korea feels more secure and less incentivized to negotiate.

• Strategic Alliances: North Korea's alliances with Russia and China have strengthened, providing the regime with alternative avenues for support and deterrence.

• Eroded Trust: The historical exchange of 27 personal letters between Trump and Kim ended on a sour note, with Kim expressing frustration over unmet expectations and perceived U.S. disingenuousness. This was further exacerbated when Trump shared these letters publicly with journalist Bob Woodward, undermining confidential diplomatic communications.

"If you do not think of our relationship as a stepping stone that only benefits you, then you would not make me look like an idiot who will only give without getting anything in return."
[09:08]

---

The Evolution of North Korea’s Stance

Kuhn outlines the transformation in North Korea's geopolitical posture since Trump's first term:

1. Nuclear Proliferation: The growth of North Korea's nuclear arsenal has altered the balance of power and reduced the likelihood of diplomatic concessions.

2. Military Engagements: North Korea's involvement in Russia's conflict in Ukraine signifies a strategic alignment and a commitment to mutual defense treaties.

3. Diplomatic Relations: The deterioration of trust, highlighted by the rejection of Trump’s recent letter, indicates a hardened stance against U.S. overtures.

---

Advice for Aspiring Journalists Covering Isolated Regimes

Concluding the episode, Kuhn offers guidance for reporters aiming to cover nations like North Korea:

• Engage Directly: Whenever possible, visit the country to gain firsthand experience and insights.

• Understand the Culture: Deep knowledge of the language, history, cuisine, and regional relations is essential.

• Avoid Stereotyping: Strive to present a nuanced and humanized portrayal, steering clear of dehumanizing or caricatured depictions.

• Adapt Reporting Techniques: Utilize available resources like defectors, satellite imagery, and cross-border observations to piece together the broader picture.

"Learn the language, learn the history, eat their food, learn about their relations with their neighbors..."
[13:08]

---

Conclusion

This episode of "Consider This" underscores the intricate and often fraught nature of nuclear diplomacy, especially in the context of North Korea’s evolving threat landscape. Through Anthony Kuhn's expert analysis and personal experiences, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and considerations that shape U.S. foreign policy and journalistic endeavors in one of the world's most secretive nations.

---

Produced by: Noah Caldwell
Edited by: Adam Raney
Executive Producer: Sami Yenigun

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

On February 27, 2019, President Donald Trump and North Korean leader Kim Jong Un clasped hands and smiled warmly for the cameras at a hotel in Hanoi, Vietnam.

[Anthony Kuhn]

I think they've been very successful, great relationship. I think they're going to be a very successful.

[Scott Detrow]

Their demeanors were friendly despite past animosity. Kim had once called Trump a dotard. Trump had promised to rain fire and fury down on North Korea. But in this moment, that was in the past. The two leaders had been trading personal letters and Trump in the lead up to the meeting even said, quote, we fell in love.

[Anthony Kuhn]

They're an odd couple, you know.

[Scott Detrow]

NPR's Anthony Kuhn was there in Hanoi to cover the meeting. As Trump and Kim negotiated about North.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Korea's nuclear program, the city was abuzz with motorcades of various government whizzing back and forth. Everybody was in Hanoi seemed to be trying to cash in on it. There were T shirts with Trump and Kim on it. People were getting these high and tight Kim Jong Un hair and of course, lots of, you know, Vietnamese kitsch.

[Scott Detrow]

Despite the fanfare, the summit ended early, without a deal.

[Anthony Kuhn]

It was basically the collapse of diplomacy.

[Scott Detrow]

As Trump said, sometimes you have to walk.

[Anthony Kuhn]

And this was just one of those times.

[Scott Detrow]

Although a deal didn't happen, that meeting was a stark contrast to the approach that Trump recently took with Iran, an approach that culminated in U.S. airstrikes on its nuclear facilities. Consider this. Nuclear diplomacy has been a prominent feature of Donald Trump's years in office. So that's the topic in our weekly Reporter's Notebook series where we bring you inside our reporting process. This episode, Anthony Kuhn brings us the view from the Korean Peninsula, reflecting on his time covering Trump and Kim and the difficulties of covering North Korea. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

[Tammy Bruce]

The House of Representatives has approved a White House request to claw back two years of previously approved funding for public media. The rescissions package now moves on to the Senate. This move poses a serious threat to local stations and public media as we know it. Please take a stand for public media [e-mail] thank you. On the plus side, you get sponsor free listening to over 25 NPR podcasts. On the minus side, you get fewer chances to tap Fast forward on your podcast player. On the plus side, you get to support something you care about. On the minus side, you like challenges and think this makes it too easy. So why don't you join us on the plus side of things with NPR? Learn more and sign up at plus.npr.org.

[NPR Music Host]

Fall in love with new music every Friday at All songs considered. That's NPR's music recommendation podcast Fridays are where we spend our whole show sharing all the greatest new releases of the week. Make the hunt for new music a part of your life. Again, tap into new Music Friday from All Songs Considered available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Scott Detrow]

It's consider this from NPR. Earlier this week, U.S. state Department spokesperson Tammy Bruce was asked whether North Korea might take any lessons from the Trump administration's recent missile strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

[NPR Correspondent]

Well, again, I won't speculate about what other countries should think or do. At the same time, President Trump in his first term made significant outreach to North Korea and what I can say, of course, and they've got their own nuclear program at North Korea that we remain committed to the complete denuclearization of North Korea. That remains a commitment.

[Scott Detrow]

It was a nod to the similar space that North Korea and Iran have occupied in the presidencies of Donald Trump as well as other recent presidents, countries with aspiring or in the case of North Korea, established nuclear programs. So when we called up Anthony Kuhn for this week's Reporter's Notebook, I wanted to start there talking about the parallels and non parallels between Trump's North Korean negotiations and the ongoing conflict with Iran.

[Anthony Kuhn]

This has been on a lot of people's minds. The key point, though, is North Korea now has an estimated arsenal of about 50 atomic bombs, whereas Iran had none. And North Korea also has the missiles to deliver these not only to US Military bases in Asia, but all the way to the US Homeland. So a preemptive US Strike on North Korea's nuclear facilities is really out of the question.

[Scott Detrow]

Right.

[Anthony Kuhn]

So if anything, the message to North Korea was that when they decided to build a nuclear arsenal, that was a wise investment. That's the difference between what's happened to them and other countries which gave up their nuclear weapons, like Libya and Ukraine.

[Scott Detrow]

So let's, let's shift gears and go back to just talking about the ways that you have covered North Korea because it's a more extreme example of some things that I think we also experience when we try to cover Iran. Right. It's a tough country to get into. It's a culture which American audiences might not really understand. North Korea especially there, is probably the highest amount of government control over movement and information and, and media of any country in the world. How do you go about that when you are trying to cover this country? How do you get around the political messaging to know how ordinary people feel about particular issues?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Yeah, well, it's very Frustrating not to be able to get in there on the ground and speak to people. And even when you do get in, it's so tough to convey to people the lives of ordinary North Koreans. If you get into North Korea, probably you're going to the capital, Pyongyang, to report. But, you know, Pyongyang is a showcase city. It's for the elites. And news organizations that have set up bureaus in Pyongyang are sometimes accused of basically just being useful idiots and helping North Korea to, you know, to put out its propaganda without really getting any news. I personally feel that there are ways of, you know, getting the news out of there. There are ways of interpreting what you're seeing and what you're hearing from people. Basically, what we do in South Korea is we talk to defectors, and we have to remind people that they are not necessarily representative of all people in North Korea. We read what North Korea says about itself in its state media. And while that's propaganda and often gives you very little idea of what's really going on in there, you have to learn to interpret it. You have to be able to read between the lines. And also it's important to get as close as you can. Go to the demilitarized zone in South Korea and look with binoculars over the border to see what life looks like inside North Korea. Go to the Chinese border on the Yalu river between the two countries. Look at how this Chinese city of Dandong is ablaze with lights at night, while the other side of the river is in almost total darkness at night. And go to Russia, where many North Korean laborers are sent to work. You gotta get as close as you can and get in if at all possible.

[Scott Detrow]

And you have been inside North Korea, though. Tell us about that trip.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Yeah, that was an amazing. One of the most amazing experiences of my career as a journalist. I went with the New York Philharmonic Orchestra when they were invited to perform in Pyongyang in 2008. And this was a sort of brief window of cultural diplomacy which people had hoped would blossom into something more. And I was in Pyongyang for about three days, and we were taken all around the city. It was an unforgettable trip. And one thing that made it really great was the communication that took place between people and musicians, the use of music, as in, you know, universal language, to get over all sorts of barriers to communicate. And, you know, I came away with the feeling that for all the differences and for all the ways in which the two Koreas, north and south, have grown Apart, they're still both Korean. They speak more or less the same language, they eat the same food. Their cultural performances were so similar. So that made me believe that as far apart as they've come, perhaps someday reunification might still be possible. We are very pleased to hear that the symphony orchestra have come to our country.

[NPR Correspondent]

I also think exchange is necessary.

[Scott Detrow]

You know, we've, we've been obviously looking backwards here a lot, but there have been some new developments on this, on this storyline. Trump did try to send another letter to Kim recently, right?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Yes. This has been what's reported. Neither side has confirmed it, but this story was first reported by an authoritative North Korea news website called NK News. And they said that Trump sent his letters via the only working channel of communication with North Korea, which is the North Korean embassy at the UN But North Korean diplomats refused to accept the letters, so they never made it to Kim Jong Un.

[Scott Detrow]

Wow.

[Anthony Kuhn]

So any attempt to try to restart negotiations has so far failed.

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, that is really remarkable to not even accept a letter from the President of the United States. So it makes me wonder, like, what do you think is different this time? Why do you think that Kim is not engaging at all?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Well, we face a fundamentally different scene in the second Trump administration than we did from the first. As we said, they now have a nuclear arsenal estimated at about 50 weapons when they only had about 20 or 30 during the first Trump administration. They were seeking security guarantees from the US when they didn't get them, they turned to Russia and China. And now by sending North Korean troops to fight Ukraine in Russia, they have basically a sort of a mutual self defense treaty. And finally, there was the letter writing between Kim and Trump. In 2018 and 2019, Kim and Trump exchanged 27 letters, personal letters. And there are pictures of Kim Jong Un reading Trump's letters at his desk. You can practically see the letters looking through his sheet of paper. And in the very last letter that Kim wrote to Trump, he wrote to him, if you do not think of our relationship as a stepping stone that only benefits you, then you would not make me look like an idiot who will only give without getting anything in return. So that's how bad he felt. He had been burned by Trump. And as if that weren't bad enough, Trump then took those letters and gave them to journalist Bob Woodward, who publicized them, and they were all over the media.

[Scott Detrow]

Quick turn from the original flowing, oversized envelopes of that correspondence, I guess who.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Would imagine that Trump would just go handing them out like candy, Right?

[Scott Detrow]

Anthony, I want to shift to you to end the segment. And I actually remember asking you this, eating ramen with you in Japan when I met you for the first time when I was covering President Biden's trip there. But I will repeat this question for our broader audience. How did you end up first covering Asia as a reporter? Because you've, you've, you've, you've made this your specialty for a long time and have card out of land as such an expert.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Well, I was born in Boston, actually, but the next year I went to visit Asia. The first country was Japan. And then as a college student, I came back and visited China and Korea. And although I hadn't really focused much or learned much about Asia as a kid, I was struck by the life of people, the depth of the culture, the dynamism of China. When I went in the 1980s, China was coming out of the Maoist period, and it was getting its first taste of private enterprise and private businesses and nightlife, which there hadn't been much of under Mao. And this was an experience that was duplicated in many other countries. You know, I saw these threads, these common threads and similarities between what had happened in China under Mao, in Cambodia, under Pol Pot, in Indonesia under their military rule, under Myanmar's military rule, and to be able to go into these countries and, you know, feel this explosion of openness and then in many cases, reclosing experiments in democracy that failed. The similarities and the threads and the commonalities and the relations among these countries when they, when they compare their experiences has just been fascinating.

[Scott Detrow]

So if you could go back in time to young reporter Anthony Kuhn, just getting started, and could give any advice on covering North Korea specifically, probably the most challenging of all the various countries you've covered, I would imagine. What would it be?

[Anthony Kuhn]

Pack light because the radio equipment will bust your spine. No, I'm just kidding. Listen to what the people of the country say about themselves. Read their media or their propaganda and learn what they're really saying. You know, talk to as many North Koreans as possible and avoid so much of the stereotyping, cartoonish, dehumanizing depictions of cultures we see that are unfamiliar to us. Learn the language, learn the history, eat their food, learn about their relations with their neighbors, China, Japan, Russia, South Korea. But, you know, as I said before, try to be there. If you can't get in, get as close as you can to it.

[Scott Detrow]

That was Anthony Kuhn, NPR's correspondent in Seoul. This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell and edited by Adam Raney. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

[NPR Correspondent]

Decades ago, Brazilian women made a discovery they could have an abortion without a doctor thanks to a tiny pill. That pill spawned a global movement helping millions of women have safe abortions regardless of the law. Hear that story on the network from NPR's Embedded and Futuro Media. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[NPR Host]

The Nintendo Switch 2 is already the fastest selling video game console of all time. That's despite the technology behind it lagging years behind its competitors.

[Anthony Kuhn]

Without saying it, Nintendo is selling a.

[NPR Host]

Culture on the indicator. We unpack the unusual business strategy that transformed a tiny Japanese toy company to into a global multimedia giant. Listen to the Indicator from Planet Money. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tammy Bruce]

Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.