Scott Detrow (2:05)

Shortly after, Trump said that his top aide Stephen Miller threw another territory into the mix. The United States should have Greenland as.

Michael Froman (2:14)

Part of the United States.

Scott Detrow (2:16)

Consider this. We may be living in the 21st century, but President Trump's policies increasingly echo those of the 19th century. From NPR, I'm Scott Detrowed. It's Consider this from npr. The ousting of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro.

Michael Froman (2:40)

Plus the Trump administration's renewed calls for.

Scott Detrow (2:42)

Greenland to become part of the United States signal the Trump administration may be changing the world order. Joining me to discuss this further is Michael Froman. He is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and served as President Obama's trade representative. I want to start with the US Military going into Venezuela and seizing its president. What was your response?

Michael Froman (3:02)

What did you think about?

Michael Froman (3:04)

Well, first, I don't think that there's any great tears to be shed over Maduro, who was a ruthless leader and alleged to be quite corrupt and criminal in his activity. However, going in and decapitating a government certainly seemed at odds with the president's initial views on regime change and getting involved in the internal affairs of other countries. We now have a situation where we've sort of done regime change without at least so far changing the regime. In that we've got the rest of the Maduro government, including the defense minister, the interior minister, the vice president, who's now acting president, very much maintaining control. You know, I think from an international perspective, as you said, this hearkens back to a period of time when, when the US Would just declare that it, it was going to use force or other means to, to expand or to secure access to resources. I think one of the big questions is how do other countries interpret this?

Michael Froman (4:07)

You've talked about a phrase we've heard a lot, the rules based international order. This is something the Biden administration was, was very focused on. This is something American allies in Europe talk a lot about, the idea that, that there is a set rules and.

Scott Detrow (4:22)

Standards and countries have to follow them. And the argument you hear from Stephen.

Michael Froman (4:26)

Miller and others in the Trump White.

Scott Detrow (4:27)

House is that's bogus, that that's a veneer that's never been true. And foreign policy is about strength and it's about power and it's about the US Seizing what it wants. What happens to the world if that's.

Michael Froman (4:39)

US Foreign policy going forward.

Michael Froman (4:42)

So certainly power has always been an element of international relations. But post Second World War, the US Decided that it could exert global leadership and it could exert its power most effectively by getting other countries to buy into a set of rules that more or less we designed and that served our interests very well for a long period of time. Now, sometimes that involved us constraining our own capacity to act unilaterally, but it certainly prevented other countries from doing that or it tried to prevent that. And no rules based system is perfect in the international legal system. I think if most countries follow most of the rules, most of the time it has been deemed a success.

Scott Detrow (5:29)

But does Miller have a point, though, that that might have been right all along? Like the US and its allies have.

Michael Froman (5:34)

Not seen it in their interest to go to war with Russia and Ukraine directly? No one stopped the United States from seizing Maduro and Now Miller saying, who's going to stop America if it seizes Greenland?

Michael Froman (5:44)

So I think Stephen Miller is right that the power matters and how you exercise power matters. I think the question is we have been successful for 80 years in using our power and US leadership to shape a system that all of the other countries bought into, more or less, and that one kept the peace broadly in the world. What this administration has done is said, look, we're going to put that to the side and we're going to go back in many respects to, as you suggested, an earlier period where what mattered was your hard power and how you exercised it and whether any other country could stand up to you in doing so. And we do have the largest military in the world, and we do spend more on our military than the next several countries combined. We have real challenges out there, including China, that is engaged in a major military modernization plan and a major military modernization build out. But we are still the dominant military power in the world. And the question is, how do we use that military power?

Scott Detrow (6:49)

I mean, you're speaking about this very.

Michael Froman (6:50)

Rationally and strategically, but don't we have a lot of evidence at this point that a lot of the decision making is just. I would like to add to the United States, I would like to leave my mark in one way or another with the Trump White House and President Trump specifically. It seems like he's talked out loud about that being kind of what part of the reasons he's taking these actions.

Michael Froman (7:08)

Well, look a little bit like the comment about running Venezuela, but basically doing it, leaving the current government in place and really focusing on a few issues that the US Cares a lot about, like oil, not so much on democracy or on economic reform in Venezuela, et cetera. I think one could take that same approach to Greenland. I think there are really serious issues of Arctic security and we ought to be more engaged in the Arctic Circle, particularly with climate change. As the polar ice caps are melting, that becomes a much more viable trade route. And so we should be more engaged up there for our own national security. And the Danes and the green lenders are very happy to cooperate with us. And there's even a framework, there's even agreement between us as to how we would, how we could further build out our cooperation in that area. But I think the president is right. We probably do need to engage much more actively with Greenland and Denmark and ensure that we've got the capacity on Greenland to address our Arctic security needs.

Scott Detrow (8:15)

Has any of this surprised you?

Michael Froman (8:16)

Based on. On what President Trump and his top advisers talked about heading into their second term.

Michael Froman (8:23)

Yes, I'd say there's a lot of expectation coming into the second term that the president was going to be an isolationist, and he is clearly not an isolationist. He has been deeply engaged internationally from day one. And what we've seen is, whether it's regime change in Venezuela or the state building that is slated to go on in Gaza around the ceasefire plan that the president negotiated, that this is very Much involves active U.S. participation and active personal participation by the president.

Scott Detrow (9:02)

That's Michael Froman, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Michael Froman (9:06)

Thank you so much for talking to us.

Michael Froman (9:07)

Thanks for having me.

Scott Detrow (9:09)

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam with audio engineering from Tiffany Vera Castro. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's CONSIDER this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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