Is the Trump foreign policy back to the future?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Is the Trump Foreign Policy Back to the Future?"

Podcast: Consider This from NPR
Date: January 8, 2026
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Michael Froman, President of the Council on Foreign Relations

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Episode Overview

This episode examines whether President Trump’s second-term foreign policy marks a return to 19th-century American political strategies. Using recent actions—like the intervention in Venezuela and ambitions toward Greenland—as focal points, host Scott Detrow and guest Michael Froman explore the echoes of America’s Gilded Age politics, debates about the rules-based international order, and the power-driven worldview currently shaping US engagement with the world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Echoes of the 19th Century in Trump Policy

• Opening Context (00:04–02:16):

  • Trump’s "Make America Great Again" slogan lacks clarity on which era it idealizes.
  • Policies reminiscent of the late 1800s are highlighted: high tariffs, industry-government coziness, aggressive territorial expansion.
  • Memorable Parallel: The McKinley Tariff of 1890, historic business-political entanglements (e.g., Credit Mobilier scandal), and the Spanish-American War’s annexations are cited as analogs.
  • AI companies donating to political causes draw comparison to Gilded Age industrialists.

  Quote:

  "Now AI is the billion dollar industry and its leaders are donating money and courting favors with the current administration."
  — Scott Detrow (01:08)

2. Venezuela and Modern Regime Change

• US Military Action in Venezuela (02:40–04:07):

  • The US ousted Venezuelan President Maduro but left much of his government in place.
  • Froman expresses unease at the incongruence between Trump’s prior anti-intervention rhetoric and decisive regime-toppling.
  • Raises point that this mirrors an era where the US would unilaterally use force for its interests.

  Quote:

  "We now have a situation where we've sort of done regime change without at least so far changing the regime."
  — Michael Froman (03:24)

3. The “Rules-Based International Order” vs. “Might Makes Right”

• Examining the US role post-WWII and Today (04:07–06:49):

  • Froman discusses the 70+ year project of US-led global order based on internationally agreed rules.
  • Under Trump, there is open skepticism of this system—asserted by aides like Stephen Miller—shifting toward overt power politics.
  • Froman concedes that power is always a driver, but the shift away from rules undermines system stability.

  Quotes:

  "The argument you hear from Stephen Miller and others in the Trump White House is that's bogus, that that's a veneer that's never been true. And foreign policy is about strength and it's about power and it's about the US seizing what it wants."
  — Scott Detrow (04:27)

  "We have been successful for 80 years in using our power and US leadership to shape a system that all of the other countries bought into, more or less..."
  — Michael Froman (05:56)

4. Greenland and Renewed Expansionism

• US Interest in Greenland (06:49–08:15):

  • Trump’s desire to acquire Greenland is discussed both as personal ambition and as a strategic move (e.g., Arctic security).
  • Froman outlines existing cooperation with Denmark and Greenland but notes the president’s aggressive approach.

  Quote:

  "I think the president is right. We probably do need to engage much more actively with Greenland and Denmark and ensure that we've got the capacity on Greenland to address our Arctic security needs."
  — Michael Froman (08:03)

5. Trump’s Second-Term Foreign Policy: Isolationist or Interventionist?

• Surprises in Trump’s Approach (08:15–09:02):

  • Contrary to expectations of isolationism, Trump’s second term is marked by high international engagement, forceful interventions, and new state-building efforts.
  • New US engagement in Gaza’s post-ceasefire context is briefly referenced.

  Quote:

  "He is clearly not an isolationist. He has been deeply engaged internationally from day one."
  — Michael Froman (08:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "We may be living in the 21st century, but President Trump's policies increasingly echo those of the 19th century."
  — Scott Detrow (02:16)

• "No rules based system is perfect in the international legal system. I think if most countries follow most of the rules, most of the time it has been deemed a success."
  — Michael Froman (05:18)

• "There’s even agreement between us as to how we could further build out our cooperation in that area."
  — Michael Froman (08:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:04 — Introduction to the theme: "Make America Great Again" and historical parallels
• 00:26–01:52 — Comparisons to 19th-century tariffs, business influence, and territorial expansion
• 02:40–04:07 — Venezuela intervention and regime change debate
• 04:07–06:49 — The rules-based international order and Trump’s challenge to it
• 06:49–08:15 — Greenland, Arctic security, and 21st-century expansionism
• 08:15–09:02 — Assessment of Trump’s international engagement vs. isolationism

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Episode Takeaways

• President Trump’s second-term actions reflect a distinct return to power-driven, 19th-century-style dominance rather than post-WWII internationalism.
• Major US foreign policy moves now question established global rules, suggesting a re-embrace of might over multilateralism.
• The application of this attitude to modern contexts—AI, international business, territorial moves—hints at both personal ambition and strategic calculation.
• The Trump administration’s active international role belies pre-term expectations of isolationism.

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For full context, listen to the episode on NPR.

Transcript

[Donald Trump]

We will make America great again.

[Scott Detrow]

That phrase has been in our political ecosystem for 10 years now, but it's never been entirely clear what time period in American history President Trump was referencing. Is it the 1980s, maybe the 1950s? What about further back, say, the 1890s? As we enter the second year of Trump's second term, is a 19th century presidency emerging?

[Michael Froman]

There's tariffs, the president announced goods from every nation we trade with will be subject to import taxes, which echoed the.

[Scott Detrow]

Tariff act of 1890. As Morocco explained on CBS, the 1890.

[Michael Froman]

McKinley tariff raised rates as high as 50%.

[Scott Detrow]

In the late 19th century, the railroad industry raked in billions of dollars and cozied up to political power brokers. Here's an NBC educational film explaining one of the biggest scandals of the era.

[Donald Trump]

One involved a railroad company called Credit Mobilier, where in 1870 stockholders cheated their own company out of millions of dollars. Among the stockholders were members of the United States Congress and Grant's own Vice president, Skylar Colfax.

[Scott Detrow]

Now AI is the billion dollar industry and its leaders are donating money and courting favors with the current administration.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Amazon, led by Jeff Bezos, is donating $1 million to Trump's inauguration fund. Meta, led by Mark Zuckerberg, is also giving a million dollars to the fund. And OpenAI CEO Sam Altman is also making a personal.

[Scott Detrow]

And then there's foreign policy as laid out here on ted. Ed From 1867 to 1899, the United States acquired several territories, including the Hawaiian Islands. Despite protests from the native population, the.

[Podcast Announcer]

Spanish American War began. Seeing Hawaii as a strategic military base, President William McKinley declared it a US territory.

[Scott Detrow]

Now, in 2026, the US has removed the leader of Venezuela and President Trump has declared, we're going to run the.

[Donald Trump]

Country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.

[Scott Detrow]

Shortly after, Trump said that his top aide Stephen Miller threw another territory into the mix. The United States should have Greenland as.

[Michael Froman]

Part of the United States.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this. We may be living in the 21st century, but President Trump's policies increasingly echo those of the 19th century. From NPR, I'm Scott Detrowed. It's Consider this from npr. The ousting of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro.

[Michael Froman]

Plus the Trump administration's renewed calls for.

[Scott Detrow]

Greenland to become part of the United States signal the Trump administration may be changing the world order. Joining me to discuss this further is Michael Froman. He is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations and served as President Obama's trade representative. I want to start with the US Military going into Venezuela and seizing its president. What was your response?

[Michael Froman]

What did you think about?

Well, first, I don't think that there's any great tears to be shed over Maduro, who was a ruthless leader and alleged to be quite corrupt and criminal in his activity. However, going in and decapitating a government certainly seemed at odds with the president's initial views on regime change and getting involved in the internal affairs of other countries. We now have a situation where we've sort of done regime change without at least so far changing the regime. In that we've got the rest of the Maduro government, including the defense minister, the interior minister, the vice president, who's now acting president, very much maintaining control. You know, I think from an international perspective, as you said, this hearkens back to a period of time when, when the US Would just declare that it, it was going to use force or other means to, to expand or to secure access to resources. I think one of the big questions is how do other countries interpret this?

You've talked about a phrase we've heard a lot, the rules based international order. This is something the Biden administration was, was very focused on. This is something American allies in Europe talk a lot about, the idea that, that there is a set rules and.

[Scott Detrow]

Standards and countries have to follow them. And the argument you hear from Stephen.

[Michael Froman]

Miller and others in the Trump White.

[Scott Detrow]

House is that's bogus, that that's a veneer that's never been true. And foreign policy is about strength and it's about power and it's about the US Seizing what it wants. What happens to the world if that's.

[Michael Froman]

US Foreign policy going forward.

So certainly power has always been an element of international relations. But post Second World War, the US Decided that it could exert global leadership and it could exert its power most effectively by getting other countries to buy into a set of rules that more or less we designed and that served our interests very well for a long period of time. Now, sometimes that involved us constraining our own capacity to act unilaterally, but it certainly prevented other countries from doing that or it tried to prevent that. And no rules based system is perfect in the international legal system. I think if most countries follow most of the rules, most of the time it has been deemed a success.

[Scott Detrow]

But does Miller have a point, though, that that might have been right all along? Like the US and its allies have.

[Michael Froman]

Not seen it in their interest to go to war with Russia and Ukraine directly? No one stopped the United States from seizing Maduro and Now Miller saying, who's going to stop America if it seizes Greenland?

So I think Stephen Miller is right that the power matters and how you exercise power matters. I think the question is we have been successful for 80 years in using our power and US leadership to shape a system that all of the other countries bought into, more or less, and that one kept the peace broadly in the world. What this administration has done is said, look, we're going to put that to the side and we're going to go back in many respects to, as you suggested, an earlier period where what mattered was your hard power and how you exercised it and whether any other country could stand up to you in doing so. And we do have the largest military in the world, and we do spend more on our military than the next several countries combined. We have real challenges out there, including China, that is engaged in a major military modernization plan and a major military modernization build out. But we are still the dominant military power in the world. And the question is, how do we use that military power?

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, you're speaking about this very.

[Michael Froman]

Rationally and strategically, but don't we have a lot of evidence at this point that a lot of the decision making is just. I would like to add to the United States, I would like to leave my mark in one way or another with the Trump White House and President Trump specifically. It seems like he's talked out loud about that being kind of what part of the reasons he's taking these actions.

Well, look a little bit like the comment about running Venezuela, but basically doing it, leaving the current government in place and really focusing on a few issues that the US Cares a lot about, like oil, not so much on democracy or on economic reform in Venezuela, et cetera. I think one could take that same approach to Greenland. I think there are really serious issues of Arctic security and we ought to be more engaged in the Arctic Circle, particularly with climate change. As the polar ice caps are melting, that becomes a much more viable trade route. And so we should be more engaged up there for our own national security. And the Danes and the green lenders are very happy to cooperate with us. And there's even a framework, there's even agreement between us as to how we would, how we could further build out our cooperation in that area. But I think the president is right. We probably do need to engage much more actively with Greenland and Denmark and ensure that we've got the capacity on Greenland to address our Arctic security needs.

[Scott Detrow]

Has any of this surprised you?

[Michael Froman]

Based on. On what President Trump and his top advisers talked about heading into their second term.

Yes, I'd say there's a lot of expectation coming into the second term that the president was going to be an isolationist, and he is clearly not an isolationist. He has been deeply engaged internationally from day one. And what we've seen is, whether it's regime change in Venezuela or the state building that is slated to go on in Gaza around the ceasefire plan that the president negotiated, that this is very Much involves active U.S. participation and active personal participation by the president.

[Scott Detrow]

That's Michael Froman, the president of the Council on Foreign Relations.

[Michael Froman]

Thank you so much for talking to us.

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam with audio engineering from Tiffany Vera Castro. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's CONSIDER this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

[Podcast Announcer]

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