Is the U.S. headed for autocracy?

Summary

Consider This from NPR: Is the U.S. Headed for Autocracy?

Release Date: February 19, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Scott Detrow engages in a deep conversation with Masha Gessen, a renowned journalist and opinion columnist for The New York Times, to explore the unsettling question: Is the United States on a path toward autocracy? Drawing parallels between Gessen’s experiences in Russia and the current political climate in the U.S., the discussion delves into the mechanisms through which democratic norms may be eroding and the implications for American society.

---

1. Masha Gessen's Insights from Russia

[00:00] Scott Detrow introduces Gessen by highlighting their firsthand experience with the erosion of democracy in Russia under Vladimir Putin. Gessen recounts the gradual crackdown on activists, journalists, and opposition leaders during the 2000s and early 2010s.

[00:21] Masha Gessen reflects on the initial stages of authoritarianism in Russia:

“It seemed completely absurd when Putin started centering LGBT people as the root of all evil and a threat to Russian sovereignty. Tiny minority, not that visible in Russia.”
(00:21)

Gessen, who is trans and non-binary, initially underestimated the severity of Putin's rhetoric and policies, not realizing the personal threats that would soon force them to flee Russia in 2013.

---

2. Parallels Between Russia and the Trump Administration

Transitioning to the United States, [00:51] Scott Detrow references Gessen’s recent op-ed where they draw parallels between Russia's descent into autocracy and the early months of President Trump's administration.

An Unnamed Commentator exemplifies the kind of rhetoric Gessen compares to authoritarian tactics:

“It's all under investigation. I understand that. That's why I'm trying to figure out.”
(01:14)

This commentator further illustrates the spread of unfounded conspiracy theories, such as President Trump attributing a plane crash at a Washington airport to diversity policies.

---

3. The Role of Absurd Proposals in Democratic Erosion

Gessen identifies a concerning trend in the Trump administration's policy proposals, labeling them as "bad ideas" that contribute to undermining democratic norms.

[03:31] Masha Gessen asserts:

“Bad ideas as such, actually do a lot of the work of building autocracy.”
(03:31)

She elaborates that these proposals, though seemingly absurd—such as the U.S. potentially purchasing Greenland or taking over the Gaza Strip—serve to delegitimize the established law-based world order and erode the public’s trust in democratic institutions.

---

4. Voter Disillusionment and Systemic Issues

Addressing the electoral support for Trump, [05:22] Masha Gessen offers a critical analysis:

“I think that basically the Democratic Party for at least three election cycles, has now insisted that things are fine just the way they are... Americans have said that the way that the rules are written and the way that the system functions doesn't work for them.”
(05:22)

Gessen posits that systemic failures and the Democratic Party's inability to address widespread dissatisfaction have driven voters toward Trump as a means of expressing their frustration, even if it means supporting policies that threaten democratic integrity.

---

5. Institutional Responses and the Building of Autocracy

The conversation shifts to how various institutions are adapting to Trump's presidency, often altering policies and practices to align with his administration’s agenda.

[07:35] Masha Gessen explains:

“With Trump's second election, we can no longer claim that this is what this country is. And I think that rationally people are settling in for the long haul and making decisions about their organizations that will benefit them or at least keep them safer in the short term. And that's really the problem with this kind of abeyance is that it is reasonable, it is well thought through... When everyone does that, that is exactly how autocracy is built.”
(07:35)

Gessen highlights that while individual institutions may act out of self-preservation and rational decision-making, collectively, these actions facilitate the consolidation of authoritarian power by eroding checks and balances.

---

6. The Push and Pull of Democracy

Discussing the dynamics of democratic governance, [09:16] Masha Gessen comments on the importance of genuine political opposition:

“If there's no real politics coming from the other side, then we will watch democracy destroy itself, which is one of its fundamental design flaws.”
(09:16)

Gessen underscores that democracy requires active and effective opposition to prevent the unchecked accumulation of power, warning that without it, democratic institutions are vulnerable to self-destruction.

---

7. Conclusion and Reflections

In wrapping up the discussion, Scott Detrow and Masha Gessen reflect on the precarious state of American democracy. Gessen emphasizes the need for a broader vision and systemic reforms to address the underlying issues that have led to disillusionment and support for authoritarian-leaning policies.

[10:03] Masha Gessen concludes:

“Thank you for having me.”
(10:03)

The episode serves as a compelling analysis of how seemingly outlandish policies and public rhetoric can collectively erode democratic foundations, drawing from historical and contemporary examples to warn of the potential slide toward autocracy in the United States.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Bad Ideas as Catalysts: Outlandish and unfounded policy proposals can undermine democratic norms and facilitate authoritarianism.
• Voter Disillusionment: Systemic failures and unaddressed public dissatisfaction can drive support for extreme political leaders.
• Institutional Compliance: Rational decisions by institutions to align with authoritarian policies can collectively erode checks and balances.
• Necessity of Opposition: Effective and genuine political opposition is essential to safeguard democracy from self-destruction.

This episode of "Consider This" offers a sobering examination of the fragility of democratic institutions and the subtle ways in which autocratic tendencies can take root within a society. It calls for vigilant and informed citizenry to recognize and counteract these dangers to preserve democratic governance.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

M. Gessen knows what it feels like when a democracy starts to look like something else. They lived in Russia in the aughts and early 2010s, which was a period of time when Vladimir Putin steadily cracked down on activists, journalists, and opposition leaders. And one of the particularities of Russia, according to Gessen, is that before things became threatening, they often just seemed ridiculous.

[Masha Gessen]

It seemed completely absurd when Putin started centering LGBT people as the root of all evil and a threat to Russian sovereignty. Tiny minority, not that visible in Russia.

[Scott Detrow]

Gessen is trans and non binary. But they say they failed to take Putin's words seriously at first.

[Masha Gessen]

You know, I thought it was almost quaint, and I certainly didn't realize that it was a personal threat and that within a couple of years I'd have to flee the country.

[Scott Detrow]

Gessen left Russia in 2013. They're in the US now. A columnist for the New York Times. And in a recent op ed, they argued that the phenomenon. Phenomenon. Outlandish ideas taken seriously. It feels a lot like what has happened in the first month of the Trump administration.

[Unnamed Commentator]

We do not know what led to this crash, but we have some very strong opinions and ideas, and I think we'll probably state those opinions now.

[Scott Detrow]

Like that press conference where President Trump argued that diversity policies were behind that plane crash at the Washington airport.

[Unnamed Commentator]

It's all under investigation. I understand that. That's why I'm trying to figure out.

[Scott Detrow]

How you can come to the conclusion.

[Unnamed Commentator]

Right now that diversity had something to.

[Scott Detrow]

Do with this crash.

[Unnamed Commentator]

Because I have common sense, okay? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't.

[Scott Detrow]

Trump has also repeatedly raised the idea that the US will make Canada its 51st state.

[Unnamed Commentator]

Some people say that would be a long shot. If people wanted to play the game right, it would be 100% certain that they'd become a state.

[Scott Detrow]

And then there's that proposal for the U.S. to, quote, own the Gaza Strip, permanently relocate the Palestinians who live there, and redevelop it.

[Unnamed Commentator]

I don't want to be cute. I don't want to be a wise guy, but the Riviera of the Middle east, this could be something that could be so bad, this could be so magnificent.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this. Trump's term has been marked by a string of policy proposals that would have been unthinkable in any other administration. Even if they don't go anywhere, they are reshaping the boundaries of our democracy. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow. Public Media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts. Perks like sponsor free listening, bonus episodes, early access and more. So start supporting what you love [e-mail] My defining characteristic for him is love. I'm Jesse Thorne on Bullseye. Kelsey grammar on the thing that makes Frasier Frasier that he loves so deeply that it almost harpoons him. Plus Sideshow Bob, cheers and so much more on bullseye. For maximumfun.org and it's consider this from NPR. M. Gessen argues that there's a simple through line to the barrage of proposals in President Trump's first month.

[Masha Gessen]

Bad ideas as such, actually do a lot of the work of building autocracy.

[Scott Detrow]

Gessen has thought and written a lot about autocracy, most recently as an opinion columnist on the New York Times. So I got them on the line to talk about how they make sense of the Trump administration so far.

[Masha Gessen]

You know, we imagine autocracy as extreme repression, as the usurpation of power. And all of that is true. And for some people, living under autocracy is terrifying because they're direct political targets. But for most people from my experience or most of the time, living under autocracy is just dumb. We are engaged now with things like should the United States buy Greenland? Did Di cause the plane and helicopter collision? These are absurd propositions. And yet intelligent people start asking stupid questions like can the United States take over Gaza and redevelop it as a seaside resort? The idea that people have obligations to one another, that there is a law based world order, at least we aspire to having one. All of this is being delegitimized with these bad ideas.

[Scott Detrow]

I want to do the radio host thing here of pushing back on the idea I invited you onto this program to talk about. But I'm very curious about how you think about this, because Americans voted to return Trump to power and there's a lot of anecdotal and broader evidence that a lot of voters hear conversations like the one that we're having right now as white noise. This is alarmist worries from elites and magazines and national news outlets. And they either don't believe these warnings or they don't care. How have you thought about this since the election? And what do you think about that dynamic that seems to really be playing out?

[Masha Gessen]

You know, a couple of things. One is that I think that Americans voted for Donald Trump because there are some really major problems with the system of government as it's constituted. I think that basically the Democratic Party for at least three election cycles, has now insisted that things are fine just the way they are, that we just have to live in some sort of imaginary normal, really refusing to hear that the normal, whatever that is, isn't working for a lot of people, that they are anxious and miserable and they would rather throw a grenade at the way things are in the form of Donald Trump than continue living the way they've been living. And the reason it's important to think about that now is that it's still the same sort of dynamic where Trump is taking a sledgehammer to the world as we've known it and the Democrats are saying, well, you can't do that. That's not how the rules are written. Americans have said that the way that the rules are written and the way that the system functions doesn't work for them. So there has to be a bigger idea. The rules were written for a reason. They were there to perform certain functions. They were there to make sure that our obligations to one another are in fact fulfilled. And they haven't been.

[Scott Detrow]

I think a theme across all of the close analysis of what has happened to countries that have slid into authoritarianism in the past is that a lot of the times the power is willingly given over. And when you look across the country right now, whether it's large corporate owned media settling lawsuits or big corporations suddenly changing their policies and their political actions, or nonprofits stripping words from their websites right now, what do you think is so different from the first time Trump is office to right now? That statements he made the first time around kind of went in and out of a lot of these actors ears. And this time they, they are stopping what they are doing, they are recalculating, they are making changes to be on the right side of Donald Trump policies.

[Masha Gessen]

I think that these decisions are rational. Each one of them taken separately, and they are rational. Even if you contrast them to Trump's first term, the threat wasn't as real. I think that whoever makes these decisions at businesses or at nonprofits or at universities eight years ago thought quite reasonably that Trump was an anomalous political event in this country's history. With Trump's second election, we can no longer claim that this is what this country is. And I think that rationally people are settling in for the long haul and making decisions about their organizations that will benefit them or at least keep them safer in the short term. And that's really the problem with this kind of abeyance is that it is reasonable, it is well thought through, and it is sometimes even values based. People are thinking, I'm protecting my employees, I'm protecting my organization. The problem is that when everyone does that, that is exactly how autocracy is built. It cannot be built without people's cooperation.

[Scott Detrow]

You know, in many different ways, though, all presidents push for and grab power, right? I'm thinking of one of the examples that we've seen the last few weeks. Trump's takeover of the Kennedy Senate board, appointing himself chair of the board. A lot of other examples to pick from, but I'm going with that one because the Kennedy center put out a statement that said, this is a little bit of a paraphrase, but they said presidents have always had the power to change our board. They just haven't exercised it. So if Trump had that power and chose to use that again, isn't that the push and pull of democracy?

[Masha Gessen]

That is the push and pull of democracy. Or rather, it's the push of democracy. And if all that is exercised is the push and there is no real political opposition. By political opposition, I don't just mean casting votes, although that would really help if Democrats were a little bit less willing to confirm Trump's nominees for cabinet posts. But if there's no real politics coming from the other side, then we will watch democracy destroy itself, which is one of its fundamental design flaws. We've always known that.

[Scott Detrow]

M. Gessen is an opinion columnist at the New York Times and the author of the Future Is History, How Totalitarianism Reclaimed Russia. Thanks so much for talking to us.

[Masha Gessen]

Thank you for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Mia Venkat and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancy. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.