Is there a Trump Doctrine for Foreign Policy?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Consider This – "Is There a Trump Doctrine for Foreign Policy?"

Episode Details:

• Title: Is There a Trump Doctrine for Foreign Policy?
• Host: Scott Detrow, NPR's Consider This
• Release Date: February 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of NPR's Consider This, host Scott Detrow delves into the complexities of former President Donald Trump's foreign policy. Titled "Is There a Trump Doctrine for Foreign Policy?", the episode explores whether Trump's approach marks a significant departure from previous administrations or simply rebrands longstanding strategies under the banner of "America First."

Defining Trump's Foreign Policy: Restraint vs. Expansion

The episode opens with Scott Detrow posing a fundamental question: "What is President Trump's foreign policy?" He juxtaposes Trump's inaugural address, which emphasizes restraint, against his more aggressive posturing, such as threats to annex territories like Greenland and Canada.

Key Quotes:

• Caroline Levitt (White House Press Secretary) at [00:11]:
  “We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end, and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into.”

• Scott Detrow at [00:22]:
  “Or maybe it will be defined by expansion. He has threatened to take over Greenland, make Canada the 51st state. He has plans for Panama, too.”

• Caroline Levitt at [00:37]:
  “Panama Canal, and we didn't give it to China, we gave it to Panama, and we're taking it back.”

These statements illustrate the apparent contradictions within Trump's foreign policy rhetoric—promoting both withdrawal from prolonged conflicts and aggressive territorial ambitions.

The Anti-Interventionist Stance

Detrow and Levitt further explore Trump's critique of past military interventions, particularly in Iraq and Afghanistan, which played a significant role in his 2016 Republican nomination.

Key Quote:

• Caroline Levitt at [00:53]:
  “This destructive cycle of intervention and chaos must finally, folks, come to an end. We've spent, at last count, $6 trillion in the Middle East... We gotta start spending on ourselves.”

This emphasis on ending "nation-building" efforts aligns with Trump's broader narrative of reducing America's military footprint abroad to focus inward on domestic issues.

Contradictions in Policy Implementation

However, Trump's actions sometimes contradict his stated intentions of avoiding entanglements. A notable example is his announcement to "take over the Gaza Strip after relocating the Palestinians who live there" during a press conference on [01:30], which suggests a potential expansionist move contrary to his anti-interventionist rhetoric.

Key Exchanges:

• Caroline Levitt at [01:45]:
  “I do see a long term ownership position and I see it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle East and maybe the entire Middle East.”

• Scott Detrow at [01:55]:
  “White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said the plan would not involve U.S. taxpayer dollars... But when pressed, he did not rule out American troops in Gaza last night. Are you doing that now?”

• Emma Ashford (Senior Fellow, Stimson Center) at [02:09]:
  “I am saying that the president has not committed to that just yet.”

This segment highlights the evolving and sometimes contradictory nature of Trump's foreign policy statements and the administration's attempts to manage public perception.

Breaking with the Status Quo

Detrow underscores that Trump's approach represents a significant break from traditional U.S. foreign policy. Levitt emphasizes Trump's role as "an outside of the box thinker and a visionary leader."

Key Quote:

• Emma Ashford at [02:20]:
  “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. President Trump is an outside of the box thinker and a visionary leader who solves problems that many others, especially in this city, claim are unsolvable.”
  (Timestamp: [02:20])

Labels and Definitions: Nationalist vs. Globalist

Detrow mentions the various labels assigned to Trump's foreign policy—ranging from "America First" to "imperialist." To clarify, he introduces Emma Ashford from the Stimson Center to provide expert analysis.

Key Discussion Points:

• Transactional Deal-Making:
  Ashford explains that Trump's policy is heavily based on transactional approaches, focusing on immediate American interests rather than long-term ideological goals. This contrasts sharply with Biden's foreign policy, which emphasizes democracy versus autocracy.

• "America First" Doctrine:
  Ashford summarizes Trump's policy as "America First," noting that while it aims to prioritize U.S. interests, it often does so through narrow interpretations. For instance, Trump's demands from Canada and Greenland reflect this transactional nature.

Key Quotes:

• Emma Ashford at [05:56]:
  “Trump himself gave us the best description of his policy years ago, and it was America first. Now, I'm not always sure that he ends up getting the best deal he can because he construes US Interests very narrowly.”
  (Timestamp: [05:56])

Shifting Global Dynamics

The episode contrasts Trump's approach with Marco Rubio's recent statements about operating in a multipolar world, acknowledging that the unipolar dominance of the U.S. is no longer feasible.

Key Quote:

• Emma Ashford at [07:23]:
  “It's not normal for the world to simply have a unipolar power... Foreign policy should always be about furthering the national interest of the United States and doing so to the extent possible, avoiding war and armed conflict.”
  (Timestamp: [07:23])

Potential for a More Restrained Foreign Policy

Ashford expresses cautious optimism that the current administration may pursue a more restrained foreign policy compared to Trump's first term. She credits new advisors, such as J.D. Vance, with wariness towards unnecessary military engagements.

Key Discussion Points:

• Reduction of Military Escalations:
  The new administration appears less inclined to escalate tensions with Iran or involve U.S. troops unnecessarily, focusing instead on deal-making and strategic pressure.

• Desire for Systemic Change:
  Ashford suggests that Trump's willingness to break from the status quo, even without a clear replacement plan, could lead to necessary overhauls in U.S. foreign policy, such as reducing reliance on European security defense frameworks.

Key Quotes:

• Emma Ashford at [08:34]:
  “The different personnel this time are going to play a role, if only because they are more willing... to let Trump express his own opinions.”
  (Timestamp: [08:34])

• Emma Ashford at [10:26]:
  “Trump seems to be someone who is willing to just break with the status quo, even if he doesn't necessarily have a good idea of what is going to replace it.”
  (Timestamp: [10:26])

Conclusion: A New Chapter in U.S. Foreign Policy?

The episode concludes with Ashford acknowledging that while Trump's policies may have both positive and negative aspects, his administration presents a unique opportunity for substantial change in U.S. foreign policy. This includes potential advancements in Middle Eastern diplomacy and a recalibration of European defense partnerships.

Final Thoughts:

• Emma Ashford believes that the Trump administration offers a better chance for "wholesale change" in foreign policy, moving away from the inefficacies observed in the past 15 years under different administrations.

• Scott Detrow wraps up by highlighting the significance of understanding whether Trump's foreign policy constitutes a distinct doctrine or merely a rebranding of existing strategies.

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Notable Quotes Summary:

• Caroline Levitt [00:11]:
  “We will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end, and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into.”

• Emma Ashford [02:20]:
  “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. President Trump is an outside of the box thinker and a visionary leader who solves problems that many others, especially in this city, claim are unsolvable.”

• Emma Ashford [05:56]:
  “Trump himself gave us the best description of his policy years ago, and it was America first...”

• Emma Ashford [07:23]:
  “It's not normal for the world to simply have a unipolar power... Foreign policy should always be about furthering the national interest of the United States and doing so to the extent possible, avoiding war and armed conflict.”

• Emma Ashford [08:34]:
  “The different personnel this time are going to play a role...”

• Emma Ashford [10:26]:
  “Trump seems to be someone who is willing to just break with the status quo, even if he doesn't necessarily have a good idea of what is going to replace it.”

Final Notes

This episode of Consider This offers a nuanced exploration of Donald Trump's foreign policy, presenting it as a blend of isolationist rhetoric and transactional pragmatism. Through expert analysis and direct quotes, listeners gain insight into whether Trump's approach signifies a new doctrine or is merely a shift in emphasis within the broader framework of U.S. foreign policy.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

Here's a question that's sometimes hard to answer. What is President Trump's foreign policy? Is it one that is governed by restraint? Maybe if you go by his inaugural.

[Caroline Levitt]

Address, we will measure our success not only by the battles we win, but also by the wars that we end, and perhaps most importantly, the wars we never get into.

[Scott Detrow]

Or maybe it will be defined by expansion. He has threatened to take over Greenland, make Canada the 51st state. He has plans for Panama, too. As he mentioned in, yes, that very same inaugural address, China is operating the.

[Caroline Levitt]

Panama Canal, and we didn't give it to China, we gave it to Panama, and we're taking it back.

[Scott Detrow]

Maybe the answer to what defines Trump's foreign policy is rooted in his criticism of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which helped him win the Republican nomination way back in 2016.

[Caroline Levitt]

This destructive cycle of intervention and chaos must finally, folks, come to an end. Come to an end. We've spent, at last count, $6 trillion in the middle East. And our roads have potholes all over. Our highways are falling apart. Our bridges are falling. Our tunnels are no good. Our airports are horrible. Like third world countries, we gotta start spending on ourselves.

[Scott Detrow]

And that might convince you that Trump wants to avoid nation building in the Middle east. Until you listen to his press conference on Tuesday at which he said the U.S. will, quote, take over the Gaza Strip after relocating the Palestinians who live there.

[Caroline Levitt]

I do see a long term ownership position and I see a it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle east and maybe the entire Middle East.

[Scott Detrow]

On Wednesday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt said the plan would not involve U.S. taxpayer dollars. And she said the president had not committed to US Boots on the ground. But when pressed, he did not rule out American troops in Gaza last night. Are you doing that now?

[Emma Ashford]

I am saying that the president has not committed to that just yet.

[Scott Detrow]

It's a plan that underscores what is undeniable about Trump's foreign policy. It is a break with the status quo. Levitt put it this way.

[Emma Ashford]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. President Trump is an outside of the box thinker and a visionary leader who solves problems that many others, especially in this city, claim are unsolvable.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this. Trump has promised a new approach to American foreign policy. Is there a Trump doctrine? What is it? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow. This message comes from NPR sponsor Saatva, maker of quality handcrafted mattresses. Founder and CEO Ron Rutson shares one.

[Ron Rutson]

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[Scott Detrow]

To learn more, go to saatva.com NPR.

[Ron Rutson]

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[Scott Detrow]

It'S consider this from NPR A lot of labels have been applied to Trump's foreign policy approach. America first, isolationist, transactional, imperialist, protectionists. I'm a nationalist and a globalist, he told the Wall Street Journal during his first term. To help sort this all through, I am joined by Emma Ashford. She's a senior fellow with the reimagining U.S. grand Strategy Program at the Stimson Center, a foreign affairs think tank. Welcome.

[Emma Ashford]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

All right, so let's try to sort all of this out. And let's start with this. Trump has talked throughout his political career about the end of nation building. His Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, recently said the US should not try to solve every problem in the world. And that point of view would seem like a really big break from the hawkish neoconservative foreign policy that has defined the Republican Party party for decades. But then at the same time, you got Trump saying he wants to take over the Gaza Strip. How do you make sense of that disparity?

[Emma Ashford]

I mean, I think this was a problem we had all the way through the first Trump term. He would often say one thing, it would get walked back by his advisors within a couple of hours. It would turn out he meant something a little different. So, you know, it's important not to get too bogged down in any one specific issue. I think when it comes to Trump's bigger foreign policy, people have often been very willing to sort of paint him as a come home America isolationist. He's going to withdraw the US from the world. But that's not what we've seen in practice. What we've seen in practice is that Trump, as you say, doesn't want to do nation building. He doesn't want to reshape the world or transform it in America's image. But he's perfectly happy to use force or tariffs when he thinks it will get him what he wants. So I think what's confusing everyone is that he's falling somewhere between these extremes that we often think about, which is like America as the indispensable nation running the world and America doing nothing. He's. He's somewhere in the middle doing his own thing.

[Scott Detrow]

Do you see? Like, how would you define in a couple of sentences what the Trump foreign policy approach is right now?

[Emma Ashford]

I mean, I think Trump himself gave us the best description of his policy years ago, and it was America first. Now, I'm not always sure that he ends up getting the best deal he can because he construes US Interests very narrowly. But I think, I mean, if you look at what he was demanding from Canada, if you, you look at what he was demanding on Greenland, he wanted border enforcement from the Canadians and the Mexicans. They want basing access in Greenland. They want the Danes to give the folks in Greenland more autonomy. His staff, his national security adviser says that his Gaza comments were designed to bring Arab states to the table with solutions. I think a lot of what he tries to do is push other states to give him what he wants, what he thinks are in American interests. I don't think he always gets that right, but it's a very clear phrase for his foreign policy.

[Scott Detrow]

Is transactional deal making a key through line, then like this, this extreme premise setting that might lead to something different?

[Emma Ashford]

I think so. Certainly unlike previous administrations, he's much less focused on ideas and norms and values. Right. It's really not about, you know, America as the leader of some liberal world order. It's about concrete interests like migration or, or treat.

[Scott Detrow]

And that was very much the Biden foreign policy. Democracy versus autocracy. That's how he framed just about everything. This is very different.

[Emma Ashford]

Absolutely. I mean, and I think one of the most interesting speeches of the last couple of weeks has been actually an interview that Secretary of State Marco Rubio gave to Megyn Kelly in which he talked about the US Operating in a multipolar world. It's not normal for the world to simply have a unipolar power. That was an anomaly that there was this time when America could do everything, could solve every problem, and that we have left that time period. I can't think of a stronger contrast with Biden than that statement. So now more than ever, we need to remember that foreign policy should always be about furthering the national interest of the United States and doing so to the extent possible, avoiding war and armed Conflict.

[Scott Detrow]

Emma, one of the reasons we wanted to talk to you is because you are somebody who does favor a more restrained U.S. foreign policy. And as we talked about this is something that Trump talked a lot about and campaigned on the first time around. But then when you look at the actions it took, there was an escalation of tension with Iran, an increase in military spending. He vetoed efforts to end U.S. involvement in Yemen. Other examples. Do you think this time could be different when you look at those end results and decisions?

[Emma Ashford]

I genuinely do think that people in D.C. always say personnel is policy. I genuinely do think that the different personnel this time are going to play a role, if only because they are more willing, I think, to let Trump express his own opinions. If you look back at the first administration, what you see is all these folks like General John Kelly or Jim Mattis, actively and openly, I think, saying that they were there to help Trump talk some sense into him, curb his wildest impulse. There is none of that this time. All of Trump's advisors are very much on board with what he says, and a number of them also have just very interesting experiences and thoughts of their own in foreign policy. I think you can't underestimate J.D. vance. For example, there is an actual veteran of the war on terror on this ticket, and that does shape, I think, how the administration thinks about nation building and wars of conquest.

[Scott Detrow]

Vance has been very clear that he thinks Iraq and Afghanistan were huge mistakes.

[Emma Ashford]

Yes. And there are some folks in the new administration who I think want to take a much harder line on Iran. We saw the Trump administration, you know, say they're going to go back to maximum pressure on Iran, but I don't think we're necessarily headed for conflict in that case. You know, last time around, there were huge fears that John Bolton and others would push the president into a war with Iran. This time, it really does seem like the pressure is a means to an end. It's deal making. It's trying to find a nuclear deal with Iran, whether they can do it or not. Totally different question. But I don't think the plan here is to get in some kind of conflict.

[Scott Detrow]

You know, as somebody who thinks that the US Would be well served by a break with the foreign policy of the last administration. What are you, as somebody who would like to see a shift like that, most hopeful about when it comes to the changes that Trump is at least saying he's trying to make?

[Emma Ashford]

Look, I mean, this is very difficult because I think we all know that president, you know, maybe he does some things that are good and then he does 10 things that are bad and it might outweigh that. I do think, though, that what has become increasingly clear in recent years is that U.S. foreign policy probably needs some kind of complete upheaval. If we look at every administration for the last 15 years, they all came into office looking for some kind of change, right? We were, we were going to pull back from Afghanistan under Obama. We were going to be this gentler superpower under Biden. None of it really panned out. We kept getting dragged back into the Middle East. We've never managed to act effectively, pivot to Asia. And so I think one of Trump's biggest virtues is that he seems to be someone who is willing to just break with the status quo, even if he doesn't necessarily have a good idea of what is going to replace it. But I do think in terms of if you want wholesale change in US Foreign policy, this administration probably offers a better chapter, whether it's things like some grand bargain in the Middle east or, you know, getting the US to pull back somewhat from European security and getting Europeans to step up in their own defense. Right. These are areas where I think you could see progress in this administration that you just couldn't under Biden.

[Scott Detrow]

That's Emma Ashford with the Stimson Center. Thank you so much.

[Emma Ashford]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lancy. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. As we wrap up the week, a thank you to our ConsiderThis plus listeners who support the show. If that's not you, it could be supporters also hear every episode without sponsor messages. You can learn more at the link in our episode notes. It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

[Ron Rutson]

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