Is this the end of the rule of law in America?

Summary

Summary of "Consider This" Episode: Is This the End of the Rule of Law in America?

Release Date: June 15, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow
Podcast: Consider This from NPR

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of NPR's Consider This, host Scott Detrow delves into a critical and timely issue: the potential erosion of the rule of law in America, set against the backdrop of recent political actions by President Donald Trump. The discussion centers around Trump's deployment of federal troops to Los Angeles amid immigration raids and the ensuing legal battles that question the limits of presidential power.

Background: Federal Deployment Amid Protests

The episode begins with a recount of the events that sparked nationwide concern. President Trump responded to protests over immigration raids in Los Angeles by deploying approximately 4,000 National Guard troops and 700 Marines to maintain "law and order."

President Trump (00:42): "If I didn't get involved... we have to make sure there's going to be law and order. You had a disaster happening."

California Governor Gavin Newsom strongly opposed this move, leading to a lawsuit against the Trump administration. The lawsuit alleges that the deployment of federal troops violates federal law and the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

Legal Challenges and Court Rulings

Initial legal actions saw a federal judge rule against Trump's justification for federalizing the National Guard, ordering the troops to return to California's control. However, this decision was swiftly overturned by an appeals court, allowing thousands of National Guard members to remain under federal command for the time being.

Scott Detrow (01:48): "In an initial ruling, a federal judge rejected Trump's rationale... But just hours later, an appeals court put that order on hold."

This legal tug-of-war raises significant questions about the balance of power between the executive branch and the judiciary, and what it means for the division of powers within the U.S. government.

Expert Insight: Judge J. Michael Ludig’s Perspective

A pivotal part of the episode features an in-depth conversation with former federal judge J. Michael Ludig, who has expressed grave concerns about President Trump's actions. Judge Ludig authored a piece in The Atlantic titled "The End of Rule of Law in America," where he argues that Trump's maneuvers represent a direct challenge to constitutional principles.

J. Michael Ludig (05:05): "The question... is whether the riots... rise to the level of the kind of emergency or crisis that would authorize the president to call up the National Guard."

Judge Ludig contends that the current disturbances do not meet the statutory requirements—such as crisis, emergency, invasion, or rebellion—to justify the President's invocation of emergency powers.

J. Michael Ludig (06:05): "In every single one of those instances... there has not been the requisite crisis, emergency, invasion, rebellion."

He further criticizes Trump for consistently pushing the boundaries of presidential authority without legitimate grounds, thereby undermining the rule of law.

Judge Ludig (07:27): "I'm gravely worried about the president's attempted use of powers, which he does not have, even arguably have."

The Erosion of Constitutional Norms

The discussion highlights a troubling pattern where President Trump allegedly disregards court orders and undermines judicial decisions, effectively assuming powers that are not constitutionally his to wield.

J. Michael Ludig (08:18): "This president... is defying the Constitution and the laws of the United States every single day."

This defiance not only challenges specific legal rulings but also poses a broader threat to American democracy by signaling a potential end to the rule of law.

Potential Remedies and Future Outlook

When asked about possible solutions, Judge Ludig emphasizes that the only effective remedy is for the President to cease these unconstitutional actions.

J. Michael Ludig (09:29): "The only thing... that can end this war on the federal courts and the rule of law in America is for the President of the United States to stand down."

However, he expresses pessimism about the likelihood of such a resolution under the current administration.

Conclusion

This episode of Consider This serves as a sobering analysis of the current state of American governance, highlighting the fragility of the rule of law in the face of executive overreach. Through expert testimony and a detailed examination of recent events, Scott Detrow effectively underscores the profound implications these developments hold for the future of democracy in the United States.

As the legal battles continue and the National Guard remains under federal control, the nation watches closely, understanding that the outcomes could redefine the boundaries of presidential power and the enduring strength of constitutional safeguards.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• President Trump (00:42): "If I didn't get involved... we have to make sure there's going to be law and order. You had a disaster happening."
• Scott Detrow (01:48): "In an initial ruling, a federal judge rejected Trump's rationale... But just hours later, an appeals court put that order on hold."
• J. Michael Ludig (05:05): "The question... is whether the riots... rise to the level of the kind of emergency or crisis that would authorize the president to call up the National Guard."
• J. Michael Ludig (06:05): "In every single one of those instances... there has not been the requisite crisis, emergency, invasion, rebellion."
• J. Michael Ludig (07:27): "I'm gravely worried about the president's attempted use of powers, which he does not have, even arguably have."
• J. Michael Ludig (08:18): "This president... is defying the Constitution and the laws of the United States every single day."
• J. Michael Ludig (09:29): "The only thing... that can end this war on the federal courts and the rule of law in America is for the President of the United States to stand down."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the key discussions and insights surrounding the critical issue of presidential power and the rule of law in America.

Transcript

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[Scott Detrow]

When protests broke out over immigration raids in Los Angeles, President Trump was quick to send in federal troops, claiming the demonstrations were destructive. The president ordered the deployment of roughly 4,000 National Guard troops and 700 Marines.

[President Trump]

If I didn't get involved, if we didn't bring the Guard in, and we would bring more in if we needed it, because we have to make sure there's going to be law and order. You had a disaster happening.

[Scott Detrow]

California officials objected to the deployment of federal troops.

[President Trump]

Well, it's an illegal act. It's immoral. It's also unconstitutional.

[Scott Detrow]

California Governor Gavin Newsom filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration last Monday.

[President Trump]

Well, he's so in more division, more chaos. He's inciting just the same. And more fear, more anxiety, more likelihood that people are going to be hurt. We're on the other side of the red line. This has little precedent in modern American history.

[Scott Detrow]

The suit accuses the administration of violating federal law and breaching the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution.

[President Trump]

The mobilization order that was sent to the Guard has a statute that requires it shall be issued through governors of the states. And I want to remind people listening this impacts every state in America, not just the state of California.

[Scott Detrow]

In an initial ruling, a federal judge rejected Trump's rationale for federalizing the National Guard, ordering the Guard to be returned to Newsom's control. But just hours later, an appeals court put that order on hold. And for now, thousands of members of California's National Guard remain under Trump's control. What happens next could have far reaching implications for the division of powers in government. And one former federal judge is issuing a grave warning. He's saying President Trump is waging war on the courts and that jeopardizes American democracy. Consider this. The clash over federalizing the National Guard in Los Angeles is just the latest battle between Trump and the courts over the limits of a president's power. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Scott Detrow]

It'S consider this from NPR since the start of his second term, President Trump has been at odds with the federal courts. From deporting immigrants without due process, to attacks on the press to targeting law firms that that he views as harboring his political rivals or impeding his policy agenda. The protests in LA are just the latest series of events to raise huge questions about presidential power. In this case, whether the president can use military force to control protests. One former federal judge has a stark warning that Trump's actions don't just present legal disputes, they could signal the end of the rule of law in America. J. Michael Ludig served as a federal judge for nearly 15 years. He he recently wrote a piece in the Atlantic about President Trump and the federal courts called, quote, the end of rule of Law in America. I talked with Judge Ludig about the piece and asked him what he thought of California's case against the Trump administration.

[J. Michael Ludig]

The question that's posed by these litigations is whether the riots that have taken place, the disturbances, the riots in Los Angeles and other cities around the country, rise to the level of the kind of emergency or crisis that would authorize the president to call up the National Guard. At first blush, many lawyers and constitutional thinkers believe that there's no such crisis or emergency that would justify the president's calling up of the National Guard.

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, it just seems like in so many of these cases, President Trump is is finding ways to maximize presidential power in ways that other administrations, for a wide variety of reasons, never did. I mean, like no one, it is very hard to stop a president from nationalizing the National Guard, even if the reason is dubious, seems to be a takeaway from this and so many other similar takeaways.

[J. Michael Ludig]

Well, that's an excellent point. And virtually all of his signature initiatives of his presidency thus far has relied upon emergency powers that he either has inherent as president or powers that have been conferred upon him emergency powers by the Congress of the United States. Now, in every single one of those instances, Scott, I believe that there has not been the requisite crisis, emergency, invasion, rebellion. Those are the operative words of the respective statutes to justify this president's invocation of those emergency powers.

[Scott Detrow]

I want to follow up on that in a moment, but first, I think it's important to characterize your point of view in all of this and just give listeners who aren't familiar a little bit of context. You were appointed to the federal bench by a Republican, George H.W. bush. Over the years, you were considered a conservative jurist, but you have also raised serious warnings about President Trump. How would you characterize your point of view, your concerns right now?

[J. Michael Ludig]

Well, I'm gravely worried about the president's attempted use of powers, which he does not have, even arguably have.

[Scott Detrow]

Judge Ludig, do you feel like worries that the president will straight up ignore an order have influenced Supreme Court rulings so far with President Trump?

[J. Michael Ludig]

Well, he already has. That's the Garcia case. And then he's thumbed his nose at virtually every lower court decision.

[Scott Detrow]

Does that mean he effectively has this power then? You're talking about things that he doesn't have the power to do. He does them anyway. Courts rule in. He ignores the orders. So does he have effectively have these powers that, on paper, he didn't have?

[J. Michael Ludig]

This president of the United States is defying the Constitution and the laws of the United States every single day. And he has thrown every one of these issues, of course, into the federal courts, overwhelming the federal courts to the point that he effectively has assumed those powers because the courts are unable to reject his claims in time. So that he does get away with it. That's a remarkably sad commentary on this president and on America at this moment.

[Scott Detrow]

Judge Ligg, I don't want to put a positive spin on what's been like a very blunt conversation with your blunt concerns, but I'm wondering, is there one specific thing that you think could happen to improve the situation from your point of view, whether it's the Supreme Court taking a stronger stance or anything else like what to you would ease your concerns just a little bit at this point in time.

[J. Michael Ludig]

If anything, the only thing, Scott, that can end this war on the federal courts and the rule of law in America is for the President of the United States to stand down. He is the one who has instigated this war, but it's crystal clear that at this moment he does not want to end that war and he has no intention of ending that war.

[Scott Detrow]

That is former federal judge J. Michael Ludig. Thank you so much for talking to us.

[J. Michael Ludig]

Thank you, Scott.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was Produced by Kai McNamee with Audio Engineering by Simon Laszlo Jansen. It was edited by Tinbait Irmias. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigan. It's consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow. Foreign.

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