Is Trump defying the courts?

Summary

Summary of NPR's "Consider This" Episode: Is Trump Defying the Courts?

Release Date: March 17, 2025

In this compelling episode of NPR's Consider This, host Ari Shapiro delves into the pressing issue of whether former President Donald Trump is undermining the American judicial system by defying court orders. Through insightful discussions with University of Virginia Law Professor Amanda Frost, the episode examines recent events that highlight tensions between the executive branch and the judiciary, raising concerns about the potential for a constitutional crisis.

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Introduction to the Issue

Ari Shapiro opens the discussion by contextualizing the gravity of a president openly defying a court order, labeling it a potential constitutional crisis and a significant event in American history. He references a specific incident where President Trump, when questioned about defying a federal judge's order, responded with uncertainty:

"I don't know. You have to speak to the lawyers about it." (00:01)

This moment sets the stage for exploring the broader implications of such actions on the rule of law and the balance of powers.

Details of the Court Order and Administration's Response

The episode outlines the scenario where a federal judge in Washington, D.C., issued an order preventing the deportation of Venezuelans to El Salvador. This order came after Trump invoked the Alien Enemies Act to remove individuals he accused of gang affiliation. Despite the judge's directive to turn around planes already in the air, the administration proceeded, leading to over 250 Venezuelans being deported to El Salvador, where they are now detained in a terrorism confinement center.

White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt provided clarification, stating:

"All of the planes subject to the written order of this judge departed US Soil US Territory before the judge's written order." (00:45)

However, Levitt mentioned uncertainties regarding the legal weight of verbal orders versus written ones, emphasizing that legal interpretations are being sought in court.

Impact on Judicial Authority and Administration's Stance

Shapiro highlights the administration's contentious stance towards federal judges, noting instances where officials have questioned the courts' authority to overrule executive decisions. For example, after deporting a Brown University physician on a special work visa from Lebanon, despite a federal judge's order for her to attend an in-person hearing, the administration claimed ignorance of the order:

"Members of the administration have attacked federal judges for blocking Trump's actions." (01:09)

When pressed about the administration's compliance with court orders, Levitt responded ambiguously:

"It is the administration's belief that you feel like you are bound to comply by the judge's orders. We are complying with the judge's orders." (02:19)

Expert Analysis with Amanda Frost

Amanda Frost provides a nuanced perspective on the situation. Initially, she expressed optimism that the system was holding:

"As long as we remain in a system in which the executive follows, or at least states that it has to follow what a court says, I have hope that the system will hold." (04:12)

However, following recent developments, Frost revises her outlook, expressing significant concern:

"I would say that we are dangerously close to crossing that line that we discussed about a month ago." (04:45)

She elaborates on the administration's disingenuous behavior towards court orders, suggesting that while they haven't explicitly refused compliance, their actions indicate a blatant disregard for judicial directives.

Consequences for the Judicial System

The conversation shifts to how such actions impact the judiciary's ability to function effectively. Frost notes that the courts are overwhelmed but capable of handling emergencies. However, the executive branch's messy and inaccurate filings hinder judges' ability to make informed decisions, resulting in the administration losing most of these cases.

"The branch of government that is most suffering from the flood, the zone approach, is the executive branch itself." (06:29)

Prospects for the Rule of Law and Constitutional Stability

Frost weighs the likelihood of restoring proper adherence to the rule of law against fears of an administration that tests the limits of legal boundaries. She underscores the importance of the nation upholding reverence for the Constitution and the judiciary's final say on legal matters.

"If we lose that, we lose one of the most powerfully important aspects of our constitutional republic." (08:43)

Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with Frost expressing hope that the courts and the executive branch can reconcile their differences to uphold the rule of law. Nevertheless, she warns of the precariousness of the current situation, emphasizing that a failure to do so could lead to irreversible damage to the constitutional framework.

"I fear that we might never get it back." (08:43)

Ari Shapiro encapsulates Frost's stance by likening the situation to being on the brink of a constitutional crisis without fully crossing it, leaving listeners to ponder the future of American governance.

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Conclusion

This episode of Consider This offers a thorough examination of the delicate interplay between the executive branch and the judiciary in the United States. Through expert analysis and detailed reporting, it highlights the potential risks of undermining court orders and the broader implications for constitutional stability. As the nation watches these developments unfold, the episode serves as a crucial reminder of the importance of maintaining the separation of powers and the rule of law.

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For more insightful discussions and analyses, tune into NPR's "Consider This" every weekday.

Transcript

[Ari Shapiro]

By almost any measure, a president openly defying a court order would represent a constitutional crisis, a tectonic event in American history. And yet when President Trump was asked on Sunday whether he had defied a federal judge's order, he said he wasn't sure. I don't know. You have to speak to the lawyers about it. The order in question came from a federal judge in Washington, D.C. on Saturday. He told the administration not to deport Venezuelans to El Salvador. Trump had just invoked the Alien Enemies act to remove people he said were members of a gang, and the judge ordered the government to turn around any planes already in the air. At a press briefing Monday, White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt offered slightly more clarity on the administration's actions.

[Amanda Frost]

All of the planes subject to the written order of this judge departed US Soil US Territory before the judge's written order. But what about the verbal order which applies, carries the same legal weight as a written order and said for the plains to turn around if they were in the well, there's actually questions about whether a verbal order carries the same weight as a written order, and our lawyers are determined to ask and answer those questions in court.

[Ari Shapiro]

Here's what's not in dispute. More than 250 Venezuelans, some of whom the Trump administration says are members of a criminal gang, were ultimately taken to El Salvador. On Saturday. El Salvador is holding them in the country's terrorism confinement center. The Salvadoran president posted a headline about the judicial order on X with the caption oopsie, Too late and a laugh crying emoji. Secretary of State Marco Rubio retweeted it. That whole episode came after a Brown University physician in the United States on a special work visa from Lebanon was sent back even though a federal judge issued an order that she appear at an in person hearing on Monday. In a court filing today, lawyers for the government said U.S. customs and Border Patrol office said they didn't learn of the judge's order until after the doctor was sent back. Members of the administration have attacked federal judges for blocking Trump's actions. They've even suggested courts don't always have the authority to overrule the executive branch. Levitt was asked about that directly on Monday, and her answer was less direct.

[Amanda Frost]

It is the administration's belief that you feel like you are bound to comply by the judge's orders. We are complying with the judge's orders.

[Ari Shapiro]

Consider Trump hasn't yet openly and explicitly defied the courts. Can he undermine them just by flirting with defiance? From npr, I'm Ari Shapiro this message.

[Connor Donovan]

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[Ari Shapiro]

It's consider this from NPR Last month, I asked University of Virginia law professor Amanda Frost whether Trump's earlier battles with the judicial system had created a constitutional crisis, and she told me, not yet.

[Amanda Frost]

As of today at this moment, the executive branch has not taken the position that it can violate court orders or that it does not need to comply with court orders. So as long as we remain in a system in which the executive follows, or at least states that it has to follow what a court says, I have hope that the system will hold.

[Ari Shapiro]

Well, in light of everything that just happened, is the system still holding? Amanda Frost is with us again. It's good to have you back.

[Amanda Frost]

Thank you.

[Ari Shapiro]

We just heard what your benchmark was last month. After the events of this weekend. Where would you say we are?

[Amanda Frost]

I would say that we are dangerously close to crossing that line that we discussed about a month ago. The administration continues to say that it is not refusing to comply with court orders, but we have seen it behave in disingenuous ways in terms of ignoring what courts have told it to do. And so I'm extremely worried.

[Ari Shapiro]

I want to dig into that behaving disingenuously because not to make light of a serious situation, but I think about like two kids in the backseat of a car and one kid says, I am not putting my hand over the line that you told me not to cross. And if any reasonable observer would say, actually, you are, does it matter that the annoying brother is saying, no, I'm not?

[Amanda Frost]

Well, I think it does matter in this context, because I think there is a difference in kind. If an administration says we no longer have to do what a court tells us to do, and this administration has yet to say that. Nonetheless, I think it is extremely disturbing that this administration is playing so fast and loose with the courts.

[Ari Shapiro]

I keep thinking about that oopsie, too late post on X, which suggests that perhaps deliberately the administration is operating in a way that is hard for courts to keep up with. And there are other examples. Last week, there was a hearing before a federal judge in Maryland about layoffs of government workers, and a government lawyer said he didn't know whether anyone in government could say how many probationary workers had been fired. In this Venezuelan case, Trump invoked the Alien Enemies act without providing the courts much time at all to stop these planes of migrants that were heading for El Salvador. How do behaviors, how do actions like that impact the judicial branch's ability to do its job?

[Amanda Frost]

Well, there's no question but that the courts are extremely busy at the moment. But courts are used to dealing with issues on emergency bases. And I would say the branch of government that is most suffering from the flood, the zone approach, is the executive branch itself. Its filings are sloppy, filled with inaccuracies. It doesn't have the information it needs to inform judges about what's happening. It is failing in its role before the courts. And we're seeing the result, which is they're losing most of these cases.

[Ari Shapiro]

And so if that's the case, do you think it's just a matter of time until all this gets sorted out and everyone is back in their proper lane?

[Amanda Frost]

When I'm feeling optimistic, what I hope will happen is what's intended, which is that the courts, together with the executive, hash out what the law requires. The executive complies even when it doesn't like the result, and the end result is a win for the rule of law. When I'm pessimistic, I fear for what is to come by an administration that seems to be willing to walk right up to the line of open impunity of the law.

[Ari Shapiro]

If I could summarize your view as the clock ticks ever closer to midnight, but we aren't quite there yet. Do you have a sense of how widespread that view is? Like, do your colleagues say you're being naively optimistic or Pollyanna ish, or are your views pretty mainstream at this point?

[Amanda Frost]

I would say I've heard a variety of perspectives. Some people think we are deep into constitutional crisis already. Others think we need to wait before we make such a declaration. And I guess I'm in That latter camp, and part of the reason for that is our nation has weathered storms before and we have pulled through. I mean, one example, of course, is Bush versus Gore. That was an extraordinary legal decision deciding a razor thin election in a way that many people didn't like. And the nation took a deep breath and followed the law. My fear is that that isn't occurring this time. But I'm not going to declare that our system is broken until the administration clearly crosses that line. I will say that we've gone a significant step towards that since the last time we spoke a month ago.

[Ari Shapiro]

Does the phrase constitutional crisis actually matter? I mean, if every constitutional law professor in the country were to say, yes, we are in a constitutional crisis right now, would that actually change anything?

[Amanda Frost]

I think what would change? And of course it wouldn't just be professors of constitutional law. It would be the nation as a whole. It would be the markets, it would be the American people. I think what has to change is the idea that this is acceptable. We are a nation which for well over 200 years has had a constitution that we revere. For nearly that long we've had a view that courts are the last word on the meaning of law, whether we like those decisions or not. If we lose that, we lose one of the most powerfully important aspects of our constitutional republic. And I fear we might never get it back.

[Ari Shapiro]

Amanda Frost is a professor of law at the University of Virginia Law School. Thank you for talking with us once again.

[Amanda Frost]

Thank you.

[Ari Shapiro]

This episode was produced by Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Nadia Lanci. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's consider this from npr. I'm Ari Shapiro.

[Connor Donovan]

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