Is Trump testing limits or trying to eliminate them?

Summary

Consider This from NPR: Is Trump Testing Limits or Trying to Eliminate Them?

Release Date: February 2, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Scott Detrow delves into the contentious actions taken by former President Donald Trump during the early stages of his term. The episode, titled "Is Trump testing limits or trying to eliminate them?", explores whether Trump's maneuvers represent a mere testing of presidential boundaries or a fundamental attempt to dismantle constitutional checks and balances.

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Trump's Actions: A Sweeping Power Grab

Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon sets the stage, describing Trump's recent actions as unprecedented:

Jeff Merkley (00:04): "We are in the midst of a sweeping authoritarian power grab that has never been witnessed in the lifetime of anyone standing here right now."

Key Actions Discussed:

1. Firing the Inspector General:

   • Timestamp [00:22]: Merkley criticizes Trump for dismissing watchdogs overseeing federal agencies without adhering to the law requiring a 30-day notice to Congress.

2. Memos to Spy on Government Workers:

   • Timestamp [00:33]: A directive was issued, instructing employees to report colleagues who resist the administration's order to end federal diversity, equity, and inclusion programs.

3. Freezing Federal Loans and Grants:

   • Timestamp [00:56]: Merkley accuses Trump of attempting to usurp Congress's constitutional power over the purse, labeling it a "constitutional crisis."

4. Ending Birthright Citizenship:

   • Timestamp [02:02]: Trump challenges the constitutional provision granting citizenship to anyone born in the U.S., prompting 22 state attorneys general to declare it unconstitutional. A federal judge has supported their stance, and the issue is poised for Supreme Court review.

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Political Reactions and Justifications

Republican Perspective:

• Senator Kevin Kramer (01:19): Emphasizes the importance of separation of powers but interprets Trump's actions as tests of presidential authority.

• Senator Jim Risch of Idaho (02:46): Describes the current political climate as "a different day in Washington, D.C."

White House Defense:

• Caroline Levitt, Press Secretary (01:42 & 01:56): Asserts that Trump's actions, including the funding freeze, are within legal bounds and within presidential authority.

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Comparative Analysis: Presidential Power

Scott Detrow draws parallels between Trump's actions and those of former President Joe Biden, highlighting that the quest for expanded presidential authority is not unique to one party:

Scott Detrow (04:19): "Most presidents want as much power as they can get, and it's not unusual to see them claim authority that they don't in the end."

Examples include Biden's unilateral student loan forgiveness and attempts to enact constitutional amendments without legislative approval.

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Expert Insights: History and Political Science Perspectives

Ronald Prusson, Professor Emeritus of History, University of Toronto:

Prusson contextualizes Trump's actions within a long history of expanding presidential power, noting a significant and recent surge influenced by Trump's personal ambitions and the current political dynamics.

Ronald Prusson (06:32): "There is a context here that makes this particularly threatening, particularly concerning the context of Trump's own ego, the nature of the political dynamics right now in terms of Republican power in Congress and the nature of the Supreme Court's rulings."

Kenneth Lawande, Political Scientist, University of Michigan:

Lawande compares the Trump administration's concentration of power to the "Eye of Sauron" from Tolkien's lore, suggesting a focused but limited sweep of executive authority across specific areas.

Jim Risch (08:22): "I think people need to keep in mind the fundamental human limitations of the challenge that any president faces."

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Checks and Balances: Defensive Mechanisms

Ronald Prusson (09:27): Highlights the multifaceted nature of checks and balances, emphasizing the critical role of the Supreme Court and the broader judicial system in curbing executive overreach.

Ronald Prusson: "I'm particularly concerned about the courts and especially the Supreme Court, given the way in which it has been tilting in recent days."

Kenneth Lawande (10:31): Identifies the independent, nonpartisan federal workforce as the most significant check against Trump's attempts to consolidate power. He warns that undermining this workforce would fundamentally alter the government's operational integrity.

Jim Risch (10:31): "The most important check, if you made me pick one, is the one that they're attempting to smash through, which is an independent, nonpartisan federal workforce."

He further explains the potential consequences:

Jim Risch (11:07): "If suddenly all of those employees could be fired on a whim by the sitting president... that's just a totally different world."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes by weighing whether Trump's actions are a blatant subversion of the Constitution or part of a broader, albeit concerning, trend of presidents seeking expanded authority. With insights from historians and political scientists, "Consider This" provides a nuanced examination of the implications for American democracy and the essential role of institutional checks in maintaining balance.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of "Consider This" serves as a crucial analysis for listeners seeking to understand the complexities of presidential power and its impact on the U.S. government's structure. Through expert commentary and detailed examination of recent events, NPR offers a thought-provoking perspective on one of the most pressing political debates of our time.

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Produced by Mark Rivers and Connor Donovan | Edited by Courtney Dorning | Executive Producer: Sammy Yenigun

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

Here is one view of what's been happening in the US Government over the past two weeks.

[Jeff Merkley]

We are in the midst of a sweeping authoritarian power grab that has never been witnessed in the lifetime of anyone standing here right now.

[Scott Detrow]

That is Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon speaking on Tuesday. He ticked off the actions President Trump has taken so far during the start of his term.

[Jeff Merkley]

The inspector general's been fired.

[Scott Detrow]

Trump fired the watchdogs who monitor federal agencies en masse on a Friday night, ignoring a law that requires him to give Congress 30 days notice and a.

[Jeff Merkley]

Reason memos going out telling government workers to spy on government workers to see if anyone is overly sympathetic to the idea of diversity.

[Scott Detrow]

That directive asked employees to report any colleagues trying to get around President Trump's order aimed at ending federal diversity, equity and inclusion programs. And then Merkley brought up the memo that ordered a broad pause on federal loans and grants.

[Jeff Merkley]

We have Trump saying, I'm going to steal the power of the purse allocated in the Constitution to Congress and I'm going to take it for myself.

[Scott Detrow]

The memo was rescinded on Wednesday. Though the White House says it still intends to cut federal funding, it's now tied up in court. Merkley described all of this in stark terms.

[Jeff Merkley]

That is a constitutional crisis.

[Scott Detrow]

The Constitution, of course, has checks and balances built in, but the legislative branch is controlled by Republicans. Both the House and the Senate are under GOP control. And Republican lawmakers look at Trump's moves differently. North Dakota Senator Kevin Kramer told local radio station KFGO that he's a stickler for the separation of powers. But he told reporters Tuesday that Trump was just testing his own authority.

[Caroline Levitt]

You know, he's getting some guidance that presidents have more authority than they've traditionally used. Some presidents have used a, some have used less.

[Scott Detrow]

And indeed, White House press secretary Caroline Levitt said this week that all of Trump's moves are legal. On the funding freeze.

[Caroline Levitt]

White House counsel's office believes that this is within the president's power to do it, and therefore he's doing it.

[Scott Detrow]

Here she is talking about another Trump order, one aimed at ending birthright citizenship. The idea that everyone born in America is an American citizen. It's taken from language in the Constitution. 22 state attorney generals have said that this is unconstitutional. Federal judge has just agreed with their argument. What's the administration's argument for doing away with birthright citizenship?

[Caroline Levitt]

The folks that you mentioned have a right to have that legal opinion, but it is in disagreement with the legal opinion of this administration, and that order.

[Scott Detrow]

Is likely headed all the way to the US Supreme Court eventually, which has taken a very expansive view lately of presidential power. Republican Senator Jim Risch of Idaho summed up the state of affairs succinctly.

[Caroline Levitt]

For all of you who haven't noticed.

[Jim Risch]

This is a different day in Washington, D.C.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this Trump is testing the limits of presidential power. Is it a political flex or a subversion of the Constitution? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

[Caroline Levitt]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Fisher Investments SVP Judy Abrams shares how their fiduciary duty comes to life while helping clients plan for retirement. Fisher Investments is a fiduciary, and I think one of the very important roles we have here as a fiduciary is to help expand people's thinking about what this money is needed to do for them. Learn [e-mail] Investing in securities involves the risk of loss.

[Scott Detrow]

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[Caroline Levitt]

Like wildfires and floods can devastate communities. On the Sunday Story from Up first, we ask, are there places that just aren't safe to live anymore? People are going to die. They will be me and my neighbors. And I don't want that to happen. How we respond to disasters in an era of climate insecurity. Listen now on the up first podcast from npr.

[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this from npr. Most presidents want as much power as they can get, and it's not unusual to see them claim authority that they don't in the end. Actually, have we saw it over the last term when former President Joe Biden tried to unilaterally forgive hundreds of billions of dollars in federal student loans.

[Jim Risch]

I will never apologize for helping working Americans and middle class people as they recover from the pandemic.

[Scott Detrow]

Or when Biden announced days before leaving office that the 28th amendment on gender equality was now the law of the land, which is of course not how it works. So are the opening moves of the Trump presidency just a spicier version of the standard playbook, or an imminent threat to constitutional government as we know it? We're going to get two different points of view on that now. One from Ronald Prusson, professor emeritus of history at the University of Toronto, and also Kenneth Lawande, a political scientist at the University of Michigan. He's also the author of the book False the Failed Promise of Presidential Power in a Polarized Age. Welcome to both of you.

[Jim Risch]

Thank you.

[Scott Detrow]

Hello. Let's start with you, Ronald. Critics of Trump are sounding all kinds of alarms about the way that he's used executive power supporters. Again, as we've heard say, this is just what presidents do. Actually, Kenneth, let me start with you. What do you think about that?

[Jim Risch]

So I think you have to be able to hold two ideas in your head at once. Yes, it would be true that if all of these things were carried out and implemented the way that they ostensibly want them to be, it would be a dramatic expansion of presidential power. But then there's this other idea which is, well, why are they doing this? Like, why are they carrying out actions at the pace that they are signing 70 or so so far? And why do they seem to not care whether or not they'll be invalidated in court or whether they're unworkable or how long they will take? And the answer is because presidents see a political advantage to taking executive action regardless of whether it's actually carried out. So I think that the concerns are real and I don't want to downplay the concerns. But if your question is, well, why are they taking this route? It's not always about changing policy.

[Scott Detrow]

It's messaging at times as well. Ronald, what do you think about this all?

[Ronald Prusson]

Well, I mean, in some respects, I would agree with Kenneth just said that is that political scientists, historians, commentators have been talking about the imperial presidency in the United States for decades. At this point, there's been a gradual, substantial, often dramatic expansion of presidential power, certainly especially since the 1930s onward. That said, I think what we're seeing at the moment is a dramatic expansion of dramatic expansion, particularly intense right now, I guess the equivalent, I would say, of talking about a high tide as opposed to a tsunami. And it is true that there may be a kind of testing process underway here and an image building or image confirming process underway. But there is a context here that makes this particularly threatening, particularly concerning the context of Trump's own ego, the nature of the political dynamics right now in terms of Republican power in Congress and the nature of the Supreme Court's rulings.

[Scott Detrow]

Kenneth, you said in an interview that the Trump administration, the White House, is almost like an Eye of Sauron, and it can focus on some parts of the globe, but they're missing hobbits elsewhere and can only really focus in on one part at a time. It's a big federal government. There's a lot of hobbits and, you know, sure, elves and dwarves or whatever else, Middle Earth people you want to put there in this analogy, do you think, again, a few weeks in, do you think that that that idea holds up, that. That a president can really zone in on one or few areas at a time and can't put a massive immediate fingerprint across the federal government?

[Jim Risch]

I think that the. The fundamental point is that there are bandwidth limitations to any president, right? They've got a couple hundred very close aides who are loyal and competent, and the administrative state is massive. That's a really difficult logistical management problem that presidents have been trying to solve for decades. So I think that even the most empowered president is going to have these problems. And in fact, if you look outside the US and you looked at, even at dictators who can literally control the life or death of their subordinates, they still have trouble executing their initiatives and getting people to follow their orders. So I think that the point stands. It doesn't necessarily mean that they can only focus on one thing at a time, but I think people need to keep in mind the fundamental human limitations of the challenge that any president faces.

[Scott Detrow]

Ronald, what do you see as the most important check and balance at this point?

[Ronald Prusson]

I think it has to be. To begin with, I don't see a single one. I think the problem with the context that Trump is operating in is that it is so multifaceted. We're dealing with problems on the congressional front, we're dealing with problems at the Supreme Court, we're dealing with problems at state and local government levels as well. And all of those have to be going forward, important arenas as far as checks and balances are concerned in the moment, I'm particularly concerned about the courts and especially the Supreme Court, given the way in which it has been tilting in recent days, probably even before that, some of the reactions within Congress, even on some of the confirmation questions, but certainly on various legislative moves as well. That would be a really crucial arena right now.

[Scott Detrow]

Kenneth, what about you? What's the most important check and balance right now?

[Jim Risch]

The most important check, if you, if you made me pick one, is the one that they're attempting to smash through, which is an independent, nonpartisan federal workforce. So, I mean, the details on this sometimes get a little bit boring and make people's eyes glaze over. But you have to keep in mind what their fundamental goal is, which is to make most government jobs essentially the property of the sitting president. And that would be a fundamental change to the way that we do government in this country.

[Scott Detrow]

A return to really the first century of how the federal government worked.

[Jim Risch]

Well, not even a return to that, because at that time, we did not have 2 million employees, some of whom maintained nuclear weapons or do food inspections. Basically, all we did at that time was the Postal Service. That would be truly a different world. Some of what public servants do make politicians look bad. They uncover fraud, waste and abuse. They reveal bad inflation numbers. And if suddenly all of those employees could be fired on a whim by the sitting president or someone who identifies them as opposed to the administration, that's just a totally different world. So I think that that's the last, most important check, particularly given the way the courts and Congress has behaved. And it's the one that I'm the most concerned about.

[Scott Detrow]

That's Kenneth Lawande, a political scientist at the University of Michigan and the author of False the Failed Promise of Presidential Power in a Polarized Age, as well as Ronald Pruson, a professor emeritus of history at the University of Toronto. Thanks so much to both of you.

[Ronald Prusson]

Oh, you're welcome.

[Jim Risch]

Happy to be here. Thanks.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Mark Rivers and Connor Donovan. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

[Caroline Levitt]

If you love NPR podcasts, you don't need me to tell you the value of public media in your life. To support our mission and get perks like sponsor free podcast listening across more than 20 NPR podcasts and exclusive bonus episodes, sign up for the NPR [e-mail] Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.