Jake Sullivan tried to get a Gaza peace deal. Here's what he thinks of Trump's

Summary

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Consider This from NPR

Episode Title: Jake Sullivan tried to get a Gaza peace deal. Here's what he thinks of Trump's
Date: October 10, 2025
Host: Scott Detrow
Guest: Jake Sullivan, former National Security Adviser to President Joe Biden

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the recent ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, comparing the latest efforts under President Trump to those under President Biden. Host Scott Detrow interviews Jake Sullivan, who played a central role in previous ceasefire negotiations, about what’s different now, the lingering challenges in Gaza, and the broader lessons in U.S. foreign policy toward the conflict.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The New Ceasefire Deal and Its Predecessor

• Background:

  • A major breakthrough was achieved in January 2025, announcing a ceasefire and hostage deal between Israel and Hamas (00:20–00:47).
  • The plan involved three phases:
    1. 6-week ceasefire and initial hostage/prisoner exchange
    2. Permanent end to the war and Israeli withdrawal
    3. Gaza reconstruction (00:49–00:54).
  • This plan collapsed in March 2025 as fighting resumed, leading to escalated violence and famine in Gaza (01:17–01:31).

• Current Situation:

  • A fresh ceasefire is now in effect, accompanied by an expected prisoner-hostage exchange and humanitarian aid deliveries, based on President Trump’s 20-point peace plan (03:01–03:42).
  • Sullivan notes the plan closely resembles Biden’s earlier roadmap.

2. What’s Different This Time?

• Immediate Relief:

  • Sullivan emphasizes the human impact of the ceasefire, highlighting imminent family reunifications and aid for civilians:

    "The good news... the guns have gone silent... hostages will be coming out and aid will be going in... Palestinian civilians... are finally going to get a measure of relief."
    (Jake Sullivan, 03:57–04:19)

• Comparing Biden and Trump’s Leverage:

  • Israel’s relationship with U.S. leadership is a recurring theme.
    • Gershon Baskin (hostage negotiator):

      "Biden never had the leverage over Netanyahu that Trump has."
      (Gershon Baskin, quoted at 04:54–05:16)

  • Sullivan responds that Biden brokered the first ceasefire, but Israel ultimately walked away under Trump’s administration, continuing the fighting (05:19–06:19).
    • He attributes the progress partly to Hamas’ weakened position and partly to Trump finally pressing Netanyahu at a crucial juncture.

3. Did Trump’s Tactics Make a Difference?

• Direct Threats and Pressure:
  • Israeli sentiment suggested Trump was more forceful, using public and private threats to push both sides (06:19–06:40).
  • Sullivan acknowledges some reported private threats but contends that “public threats with respect to Hamas… didn’t actually alter Hamas’ behavior” and that conditions on the ground primarily determined the ceasefire’s viability.
  • He highlights how, militarily, both Israel and Hamas had “run out of road," making resolution feasible:

    "Israel had no more military objectives to achieve in Gaza, and Hamas had lost... its capacity to continue to resist militarily."
    (Jake Sullivan, 07:07–07:27)

4. What Comes Next for Gaza?

• Open Questions:
  • The future disposition of Israeli forces inside Gaza: partial withdrawal but not a full exit yet (07:48–08:05).
  • What remaining Hamas fighters will do; the risk of insurgency.
  • The governance of Gaza post-ceasefire:

    "The right answer is a Palestinian government that does not include Hamas, does not include any terrorist organizations. Is that achievable? These are all very difficult... logistical and political issues."
    (Jake Sullivan, 08:14–08:29)

  • Sullivan stresses the next phase will require coordinated efforts from the U.S., Arab countries, Israel, and the Palestinians.

5. Sullivan’s Reflections and Regrets

• Personal Introspection:
  • Sullivan admits sleepless nights and continual questioning over decisions made:

    "Of course, I think about that... I wrestle with that every day, and I don’t think I’d be human if I didn’t."
    (Jake Sullivan, 08:52–09:09)

  • He points out the Biden administration left office with a ceasefire and questions if both his team and Trump’s could have found earlier ways to end the bloodshed.
    • He hopes lessons are learned to keep this ceasefire from breaking down:

      "Is there anything they could have done to end the war sooner than now? And is there any lesson that they take from the last time the ceasefire broke down..."
      (Jake Sullivan, 09:26–09:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human Impact:

  • “Hostages have been living through hell... Palestinian civilians have been living through hell and they’re finally going to get a measure of relief.”
    —Jake Sullivan, 03:57–04:19

• On U.S. Leverage:

  • “Biden never had the leverage over Netanyahu that Trump has.”
    —Gershon Baskin, 04:54–05:16

• On the causes for the new ceasefire:

  • "It was time for the American president, past time for the American president... to bring pressure to bear to end this war.”
    —Jake Sullivan, 06:03–06:17

• On future challenges:

  • “Who will govern Gaza as we go forward? The right answer is a Palestinian government that does not include Hamas, does not include any terrorist organizations. Is that achievable? These are all very difficult and challenging...”
    —Jake Sullivan, 08:17–08:29

• On introspection:

  • "I wrestle with that every day, and I don't think I'd be human if I didn't.”
    —Jake Sullivan, 08:52–09:09

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Important Timestamps

• 00:20–00:54: Summary of the original January plan and its three phases.
• 01:17–01:31: March breakdown and escalation.
• 03:01–03:42: Introduction of the Trump peace plan; host introduces Jake Sullivan.
• 03:57–04:19: Sullivan on the immediate humanitarian stakes of the new deal.
• 04:54–05:16: Baskin’s assessment of U.S.-Israel political dynamics.
• 05:19–06:19: Sullivan’s response, explaining the Biden administration’s efforts and Trump’s eventual involvement.
• 06:19–07:40: Discussion of presidential tactics and Israeli perception.
• 07:48–08:32: Sullivan outlines key unresolved questions about Gaza’s future.
• 08:52–09:35: Sullivan’s introspection and hope for learning from the past six months.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an in-depth, candid conversation about the Gaza ceasefire’s fragility and what’s at stake as leadership transitions from Biden to Trump. Jake Sullivan provides a nuanced perspective on the limitations and power of U.S. policy, the role of personal leadership style, and the human cost of war. Listeners come away understanding both the complexity of Middle East peacemaking and the profound, often painful reflection it induces among policymakers.

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Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

Hey there. Before we get to today's episode, we hope consider this helps you make sense of the news and that it keeps you company, whether you're cooking dinner or walking the dog or working out while you're listening. Whatever way you listen, we would love to hear from you. So if you don't mind, take a second and leave the show a rating and review. It really does help out. Thank you so much.

[Host/Interviewer]

And here's today's show.

[Scott Detrow]

There is finally a deal to end Israel's war with Hamas. But we have been here before.

[News Anchor]

It's a very good afternoon.

[Scott Detrow]

It was January 15th of this year, just days before President Trump was set to take office again. Outgoing President Joe Biden stepped to the podium and announced a breakthrough.

[News Anchor]

At long last, I can announce a ceasefire and a hostage deal has been reached between Israel and Hamas.

[Scott Detrow]

The plan was ambitious.

[News Anchor]

The deal is structured in three phases. Phase one will last six weeks.

[Scott Detrow]

It would start with a ceasefire, then the release of dozens of Israeli hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. Phase two would bring a permanent end to the war and the withdrawal of Israeli forces. And in phase three, reconstruction of the Gaza Strip would begin. But by March, it abruptly ended when Israel launched a wave of new airstrikes in Gaza.

[Podcast Promoter]

Overnight, a series of punishing and deadly Israeli airstrikes took Palestinians by surprise.

[Scott Detrow]

The next six months would bring some of the bloodiest fighting yet and bring famine to parts of Gaza. Consider this, a new ceasefire deal has reawakened hopes for an end to the war in Gaza. Will this deal prove more durable than the last? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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[Jake Sullivan]

Be with you and be totally present.

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[Scott Detrow]

It's Consider this from npr. A ceasefire is now in effect between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli military has pulled back from certain positions in the Gaza Strip. In the coming days, a hostage and prisoner exchange is set to begin. And hundreds of humanitarian aid trucks are expected to be allowed into Gaza. It's all part of President Trump's 20 point peace plan, a plan whose outline does closely resemble that of his predecessor, former President Joe Biden. Here to talk about this moment and what is ahead is Jake Sullivan. He served as national security adviser to President Biden and was deeply involved in negotiations and policymaking around the Gaza war. Welcome back to the program.

[Jake Sullivan]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

Look, let's start. We've been here before. As you deeply know, you and others in the Biden administration helped broker a multi phase ceasefire in the final days of the administration. Then it fell apart a couple of months later. So what to you may be different now?

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, first I think we have to start with the good news, which is we have a ceasefire. The guns have gone silent. Unless something terrible happens, hostages will be coming out and aid will be going in. And these hostages have been living through hell and they're finally going to be reunited with their families. And Palestinian civilians have been living through hell and they're finally going to get a measure of relief. So there are a lot of question about what comes next for the long term. But in the immediate term, it does look as though all of the parties have determined that the next step will be ceasefire, hostages, aid, relief. And that formula is a good formula on a very basic human level.

[Scott Detrow]

I wanted to ask you about something.

[Host/Interviewer]

That we heard on our show this morning on Morning edition. We talked to veteran hostage negotiator Gershon.

[Scott Detrow]

Baskin, who was involved in these talks. And he told my colleague Layla Fadel about what was different this time. And he said President Trump made a difference.

[Host/Interviewer]

Here's what he said.

[Gershon Baskin]

Let's face it, Benjamin Netanyahu and Ron Dermer, his main ally in the Israeli government, support the American Republican Party, not the Democratic Party. They were hostile to Barack Obama, they were hostile to Joe Biden, and they very supportive of Donald Trump. So that was one thing. Biden never had the leverage over Netanyahu that Trump has.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm curious what your response is to that statement.

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, first I would say that when President Biden left office, there was, as you said, a ceasefire in place. There were hostages coming out. There was aid going in then. And More importantly, there was a roadmap for a final and comprehensive end to the war. Israel actually walked away from that under President Trump, and we had six more months of fighting. So I'm very glad that President Trump finally came around to the view that this war had to end and applied pressure on Prime Minister Netanyahu. But I think something else happened as well, which is that Hamas position got very badly weakened over the course of this time. One year ago today, Hamas leader Sinwar was still alive. There were still Hamas military elements. Today, Hamas is a shadow of its former self, and that's part of why we ended up where we are. So I believe that it's a combination of facts on the ground and the fact that it was time for the American president, past time for the American president, in this case, President Trump, to bring pressure to bear to end this war.

[Host/Interviewer]

I do want to ask about one more contrast between Presidents Trump and Biden that a lot of people in Israel, especially, have been telling our reporters that they felt like President Trump was much more willing to make direct threats in public, in private, and they felt like that made a difference in getting both sides to try to end this war. Do you think there's any accuracy to that?

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, I didn't really see direct threats in public against Prime Minister Netanyahu. I've seen some reported threats that he made privately, but not publicly. And, of course, President Biden had very tough private conversations with Prime Minister Netanyahu. I did see some of the public threats with respect to Hamas, but he made those threats six months ago, and obviously Hamas kept fighting. He's made them more recently. So, to me, the key thing here is that Israel had no more military objectives to achieve in Gaza, and Hamas had lost a huge amount of its capacity to continue to resist militarily. And when you put those two things together, this situation was ripe to be resolved. I would argue that it was ripe to be resolved months ago, after the first ceasefire came into place, and that we've had months of needless fighting. But I am glad that they finally come around to the position where they've got the ceasefire in place, and now I hope that they can make it durable by actually working on the remaining points of this plan.

[Host/Interviewer]

What are your biggest questions about what the Israeli government and military does in the coming months, based on all of your experiences dealing with them?

[Jake Sullivan]

Well, a huge question is what actually happens with the disposition of Israeli forces inside Gaza? They've pulled back to a certain extent, but they, of course, have not fully withdrawn. And then a second main question is what happens to Hamas? To what extent are there Hamas fighters who continue to operate inside Gaza in the future? And then the final question is, who will govern Gaza as we go forward? The right answer is a Palestinian government that does not include Hamas, does not include any terrorist organizations. Is that achievable? I think these are all very difficult and challenging, both logistical and political issues. And it's what the Americans and all of the Arab countries, as well as the Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to turn to next.

[Scott Detrow]

I've noticed that you've been pretty introspective in recent interviews.

[Host/Interviewer]

I read a quote where you said.

[Scott Detrow]

That sometimes you have a hard time.

[Host/Interviewer]

Sleeping at night just because of the nature of the job you held for four years.

[Scott Detrow]

I'm wondering, do you, in this moment, as you think about things and how this took two years, is there anything you're thinking perhaps if we had done.

[Host/Interviewer]

This differently, exerted pressure differently, this war could have ended sooner?

[Jake Sullivan]

Of course, I think about that. I think about that all the time because there's been such a massive human toll, a massive human toll for innocent Palestinians, a massive human toll for the hostages and their families. I wrestle with that every day, and I don't think I'd be human if I didn't. But I think it's also important to recognize again that we left office with a ceasefire in place, and that ceasefire broke down in March, and we've had six months of fighting since President Trump has been president, or more than six months of fighting. So I hope the Trump administration is also asking itself the same question. Is there anything they could have done to end the war sooner than now? And is there any lesson that they take from the last time the ceasefire broke down to make sure that it doesn't break down again?

[Host/Interviewer]

That is Jake Sullivan, national security adviser under former President Joe Biden.

[Scott Detrow]

Thank you so much for talking to us.

[Jake Sullivan]

Thanks for having me.

[Scott Detrow]

Before we go, we want to tell you to be sure to check back here tomorrow for a new bonus episode, an extended interview with actress Jane Fonda about a new Hollywood effort to protect free speech.

[Terry Gross]

Our democracy isn't going to survive with an ethos of every person for themselves. Unity and large numbers is what's critical.

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Bonus episodes of Consider this are released every other Saturday. They're a perk, along with sponsor free listening for our NPR supporters. If that is not you, it could be, and you could help power the journalism you hear on this show. You can learn [e-mail] Our regular weekday episodes will always remain free and available. This episode was produced by Kathryn Fink and Lena Muhammad with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by Christopher Intagliotta. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's CONSIDER this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow.

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