Josh Shapiro (1:55)

That this president has lied about our elections. We know that they are going to try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits. We will be prepared again. We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections.

Scott Detrow (2:15)

Consider this. Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro was on the short list for vice president in 2024. Many expect he will run for president himself in two years. So how is he approaching the Trump administration and the current political moment? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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Josh Shapiro (3:17)

He said, the Challenger's gonna blow up. Everyone's going to die.

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Scott Detrow (3:38)

It's Consider this from npr. As the Trump administration applies the forces of the federal government in ways that have never been tried before, it is often state governors, specifically Democratic governors, trying to push back. Pennsylvania's governor Josh Shapiro has spent a lot of time thinking about how to respond to ICE deployments and demands for voter registration information, among other things. We talked about it when we sat down together in his hometown of Abington, Pennsylvania, last week. And a note, we talked before Alex Preddy was shot and killed in the street when one or more federal agents opened fire.

Interviewer / NPR Reporter (4:12)

Let's talk about ICE and what's happening in Minnesota right now. Minnesota, just the latest example of a series of different locations over the last year or so. How do you think about that line? Is this legal versus do I like this or not like this when it comes to what we're seeing play out with ICE and with other federal agents in Minneapolis?

Josh Shapiro (4:32)

Well, first off, if you want to have safe communities, you've got to build trust between law enforcement and the people that they serve and protect. I made a commitment as governor to hire 2,000 police officers and invest hundreds of millions of dollars in violence prevention initiatives to create more trust between the community and law enforcement. And it's working. We've nearly hired all 2000. I think we're at 1900. We'll surpass that number. Violent crime is down 12% in Pennsylvania. Fatal gun violence is down 43% in Pennsylvania. What we're doing is working. When Donald Trump deploys, whether it's the National Guard or ice, into a community where a mayor or governor does not want them there, he immediately erodes the trust that exists in a community. And instead of making communities safer, which is what they claim they want to do, they actually create danger in a community. You saw that with the loss of life of Renee Good. Yeah. And so to me, this is about community safety, public safety first and foremost. And this president is eroding that trust. From my vantage point as a governor, what can I do? Number one, where they deploy troops against the law, I will take them to court to stop them. I've been very vocal about not letting the president take the Pennsylvania National Guard away from my command and deploy it for other purposes. And so far, we've been successful at that. Second, we have strong law enforcement, obviously through Pennsylvania State Police, but also with our municipal police departments that we coordinate closely with. We do not want ICE coming in, eroding that trust. I think what you're seeing with ICE are people who are being dispatched to a community violating the constitutional rights of, of individuals. What you see with ICE are people who are harming that trust and making communities less safe.

Scott Detrow (6:31)

Shapiro's also thinking about another potential looming confrontation between the Trump administration and state governments this fall's election.

Interviewer / NPR Reporter (6:39)

You mentioned having those kind of tabletop conversations. That reminds me of something that one of your peers, Governor Gretchen Whitmer, told one of my colleagues, Steve Inskeep, in a recent interview. She said that government, that Democratic officials are having conversations about this year's midterm elections and that there's real concern based on, based on what we've seen in the past, what sort of statements we've seen from the Department of Homeland Security, from the president and others. There's real concerns about election integrity and election interference and intimidation. Are you part of those conversations? What can you tell us about that?

Josh Shapiro (7:09)

I am. And without obviously divulging my private communications with other governors. And by the way, I have immense respect for Governor Whitmer. I think she's one of the finest governors in the country and a really good friend. We know that this president has lied about our elections. He took me to court. He and his allies took me to court 43 different times to try and overturn the 2020 election, by the way. I went 43, 0. They went 0 and 43. We had a free and fair, safe and secure election. We've had elections here in Pennsylvania where sometimes Democrats win, sometimes Republicans win, sometimes Trump wins, and sometimes Trump wins, loses. We know that they are going to try and undermine the midterms again with their conspiracy theories and with their bogus lawsuits. We will be prepared again. We are already seeing them try to undermine the rule of law and undermine our elections. Let me explain. They asked, recently, demanded, I should say recently, all of the private voter information For Pennsylvanians, about 9 million or so registered Pennsylvania voters, and by the way, not just Scott Detrow and what party you're registered for and how many times you voted, that's publicly available, but all of Scott's private information that the state has a legal responsibility to protect, we refuse to turn that over because I believe they're gonna use it for nefarious purposes. And we were sued by the Department of Justice to compel us to provide that information. We still haven't. We're gonna continue to battle in court to protect the private information of the citizens of Pennsylvania. That's just one example of how I believe they're preparing to ramp up to trying to undermine the midterms. And I think these midterms are incredibly important. And they're important to you.

Interviewer / NPR Reporter (8:53)

You're on the ballot.

Josh Shapiro (8:54)

I am on the ballot, but I think it is broader than me. And look, I hope the good people of Pennsylvania return me to this position, which I just feel honored to serve them in. But I think right now you have people who, and I'm sure you've heard this too, who can't. I mean this with the most respect, who can't handle the news, who just wanna shut it off and they wanna pull the covers over and they wanna retreat. And what I would say to them is, now is a time to engage, not to retreat. And the best way we can engage is by using our power. Sometimes our power is engaging with people online. But for all of us, the power we have is the power to vote. And so whether you're privileged to live in a swing state like Pennsylvania or be in one of these swing districts, of which we've got four of them here in our commonwealth, or even if you're in One of these 80, 20 districts, show up and vote in record numbers. And that will send a message that we do not accept the chaos and the cruelty and the corruption of this administration.

Interviewer / NPR Reporter (9:58)

You're running for governor right now. You're running for reelection. This is the type of book that people write when they're thinking about running for president in two years. How are you thinking about 2028 at this moment in time?

Josh Shapiro (10:08)

I wrote this book because I think our politics are not meeting the moment or the needs of the people that a whole bunch of politicians represent. What do I mean by that? I travel across this commonwealth and more and more across the country, and I just see goodness. I see people who are bringing light in their communities every single day, solving problems. I write about a number of the people in this book. And I wrote this book, which, of course, was interrupted in many ways by the arson attack where we saw not only extreme darkness, but extraordinary light. And I wrote this book to speak to that. And I think it is important, I hope people will read this to recognize that our politicians need to do a better job of listening to the people and learning from the great example that the people set in their communities every day. As for the future, you talk about the sort of heart and soul of the Democratic Party and what's that going to look like? I want to have a voice in shaping that. I want to have a voice in shaping that as governor of Pennsylvania. I'm grateful for the chance to talk to someone like you about that, but I don't think anyone can look past the immediate term here this year. All of the challenges I have as governor, just Pennsylvania and other leaders have in their jurisdictions, but most importantly, these midterm elections. And that's all I'm going to focus on. That's all I think anyone should be focus focused on.

Interviewer / NPR Reporter (11:38)

Josh Shapiro, governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, thank you so much for talking to us.

Josh Shapiro (11:42)

Good to be with you. Thank you.

Scott Detrow (11:46)

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam with audio engineering from Becky Brown. It was edited by Sarah Handel. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. Let's consider this from npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

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