Lisa Desjardins (2:51)

Hi there.

Mary Louise Kelly (2:51)

Hi. So let's ground this by starting with the specifics. What we know, what we don't, how we know it about the Swalwell case, this allegation, sexual misconduct that was reporting by the San Francisco Chronicle and other outlets, just ground us in the facts here.

Lisa Desjardins (3:08)

These are striking and very specific accusations. They are alarming. CNN and the San Francisco Chronicle together detailed accusations that they reported from four different women. The one that is the most serious is a woman who is unnamed, but which in both reports they said they checked her story and checked that she had conveyed her story to people at the time. And she says that twice, Congressman Swalwell, once when she worked for him and once after sexually assaulted her. Once she says she was essentially unconscious, that they had been drinking beforehand, she didn't remember happened. The other time, she said she protested, she pushed back, and she is accusing him of rape. The other accusations also run the gamut from inappropriate touching, but to include a lot of inappropriate texting, including of nude photos of the congressman, some over Snapchat. Now, the congressman has said, as you reported, that he is innocent, but he has acknowledged some wrongdoing in the past. And he apologized to his wife. He said initially he was going to fight this legally. His lawyers have put out two cease and desist letters to these women, but he has pulled back now from his

Mary Louise Kelly (4:21)

race for governor, from the race from governor in California. You have covered Congress for years. How common is a story like this one that we are hearing now about Eric Swalwell?

Lisa Desjardins (4:33)

Well, this is an unusual moment in that we now have multiple documented reporting cases reported by esteemed outlets that seem to have done a lot of homework here. Not just Congressman Swalwell, but Republican Texas Congressman, of course, Tony Gonzalez. In reporting about Congressman Gonzalez and now Congressman Swalwell, I have found that digging beneath the surface, it seems like the problem has actually grown again.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:59)

Has grown again. That's just astonishing.

Lisa Desjardins (5:02)

You know, I think what happened after 2018 is we saw a real acknowledging of problems in the halls of power, inequity of power, especially affecting female staffers, not only female staffers. And I think there was a real attempt to address it then. But then I think there has been taking for granted of the idea that this problem has been solved. And there seems to be there has been a growing problem again.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:25)

That's fascinating. I mean, you're describing this culture of open secrets that I think a lot of us hoped would be shrinking, not growing, in the years since the height of the MeToo movement in 2018.

Lisa Desjardins (5:40)

The 2018 MeToo movement did change things in Congress. It rewrote the way that accusers, survivors could raise their cases before then, really, they had almost virtually no chance of seeing the light of day or even getting any kind of justice for their cause. It was really truly rigged against them. So that was changed, but now the system remains mired in red tape, to say the least. It is very slow. I've talked to staffers who don't trust it. And in fact, I spoke to one congresswoman, Marcy Kaptor, who said her staff does not trust the process. They believe that their accusations are not taken seriously. They're not sure they should raise them. And the system right now, the ethics system, there needs to be process, but the due process really does sort of a lot of there's a lot of critics who say it balances too much in favor of protecting the members, giving them sometimes years to answer accusations.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:33)

You know, I wonder, too, obviously, reports of sexual misconduct have been documented at all kinds of offices. You know, Harvey Weinstein and his case being Central to the MeToo movement in a very different industry. But I do wonder about the power structure and the specific power dynamics on Capitol Hill. And I guess I'm wondering, you nodded to turnover every two years in the House, but also just that every member of Congress, they're in charge of the rolls for their own office. Right. Is there a comprehensive system on the Hill to address this?

Lisa Desjardins (7:11)

There is to some degree, but there is no one that really has authority over each member of Congress except for themselves and the. So think of it as having basically in the House of Representatives, 435 separate little kingdoms where the member of Congress really sets the rules for that office. Please. There is no one that is really forcing them to abide by other standards. There are House rules that they have agreed to abide by, but it is really ultimately the voters. And then to expel a member requires two thirds power of each chamber. That is the only other lever that could affect a member's livelihood.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:51)

There have been efforts, most recently, I'm thinking just a month or so ago, Nancy Mace, Republican congresswoman of South Carolina, tried to pass a resolution that, as I understand it, would have forced the House Ethics Committee to make public all reports of allegations against congressional lawmakers, against congressional aides, allegations of sexual harassment, misconduct. That effort failed. Why?

Lisa Desjardins (8:18)

Well, it was a complicated effort. Actually, it did fail on the House floor. But immediately after that, Nancy Mace went into a committee, the Oversight Committee, and forced through a subpoena to subpoena those exact same records. Now, usually those subpoenas are dealt with rather promptly. They issue these subpoenas. It's a serious matter for a committee to subpoena something. But you know, I've been texting that committee. They have not issued that subpoena. But Nancy May says she still wants that information, she still will release those names of members of Congress and staff who have who settled for misconduct in the past. So it was voted down on the floor, but she did push it through committee.

Mary Louise Kelly (8:57)

Lisa Desjardins of the PBS NewsHour. Lisa, thank you very much for sharing your reporting.

Lisa Desjardins (9:03)

You're welcome.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:04)

And a final note on our conversation. Now that Swalwell has resigned from Congress, it's not clear whether that ethics investigation we discussed will go forward. This episode was produced by Lena Muhammad and Karen Zamora. It was edited by Courtney Dorney. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's consider this from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.