The 9/11 terrorism case is in limbo. So are the victim families.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Consider This from NPR

Episode: The 9/11 terrorism case is in limbo. So are the victim families.
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Ari Shapiro
Guests: Elizabeth Miller and Brett Eagleson (children of 9/11 victims)
Reporter: Sacha Pfeiffer

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Overview of the Episode

This episode of Consider This from NPR delves into the unresolved legal aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, focusing on the perspectives of two people who lost their fathers that day. Over two decades later, the U.S. government’s case against five men accused of plotting 9/11 remains stalled in Guantanamo Bay. Elizabeth Miller and Brett Eagleson share their personal experiences, concerns about justice, and differing views on whether plea deals or trials would best serve the families still awaiting closure.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Remembering Their Fathers ([00:00]–[02:58])

• Elizabeth Miller remembers her father, Doug Miller, a firefighter with Rescue 5, for his dedication and engaging spirit.
  • Quote: “He made everything fun, even if it was something as serious as like practicing for a fire drill.” (Elizabeth Miller, [01:31])
  • She shares memories blurred with home videos: “Sometimes I can't tell what's my own memory and what's relived through other people or through home videos...” ([00:58])
• Brett Eagleson recalls his father, Bruce Eagleson, as having a quirky sense of humor, who turned family disputes into gourmet dinners.
  • Quote: “He would go to extremes to make a point... he actually made menus… It was this elaborate menu.” (Brett Eagleson, [02:31])
• Both Miller and Eagleson have become advocates for other 9/11 family members, seeking government accountability.

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The 9/11 Case in Limbo ([04:49]–[05:25])

• The trial for five accused 9/11 planners, including alleged ringleader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, has stalled for years.
• Major obstacle: Evidence tainted by torture in CIA custody, resulting in legal disputes over admissibility.
• Defendants remain at Guantanamo Bay as families await resolution—thousands still without closure.

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Differing Perspectives on Justice ([05:25]–[12:38])

First True In-depth Conversation

• Sacha Pfeiffer brings Miller and Eagleson together for their first extended conversation ([05:25]).
• Although they’ve communicated digitally, this marks their first face-to-face exchange about the case.

Plea Deals vs. Trials: A Debate

• Elizabeth Miller's viewpoint ([06:19]–[07:07]):

  • Supported the idea of plea deals (life in prison, no death penalty).
  • Felt “excitement that there was finally going to be this, like, potential end in sight.” ([06:19])
  • Was “disappointed” when plea deals were canceled. She’s “frustrated that a decision wasn't made… This wound is still open.” ([06:38])

• Brett Eagleson's viewpoint

  • Criticized the lack of transparency: “Not a single person I’ve talked to was involved in any way with these plea deal agreements.” ([07:13])
  • Felt “a sense of relief” when plea deals were canceled: “We need to avoid plea deals because plea deals avoid a trial, and a trial avoids evidence.” ([07:52])
  • Insists families should be included in the process and worries plea deals would let the case be “wrapped up in a cute box with a bow on it and gets put on a shelf and sort of forgotten about without having discovery...” ([07:52])

Arguments for Trials ([08:43]–[09:39])

• Citing the ongoing civil litigation against Saudi Arabia, Brett values court discovery:
  • “Were it not for discovery… we wouldn’t have known what we now know about who supported these hijackers...” ([08:57])
  • Asserts the justice system—though slow—“truly does what it's intended to do.” ([09:39])

Arguments for Plea Deals ([09:44]–[11:19])

• Elizabeth counters:
  • The Guantanamo system differs from federal court—“with a pretrial agreement, it eliminates the option to appeal, because I've had enough waiting.” ([09:44])
  • Pretrial agreements would force defendants’ stipulations of factual involvement, giving the “who, what, when, where, and why.” ([09:44])
• Brett responds by questioning the credibility of written statements: “How are we going to vet that? And how can we count? This is the historical context.” ([10:42])
  • Believes only a trial will yield the complete truth.

The Limitations of the System ([11:19]–[12:07])

• Elizabeth expresses skepticism that the truth would come out regardless of the approach:
  • “I don't know if we're going to get that, whether we have a pretrial agreement or … a trial at Guantanamo… We've been in this same situation … for 13 years and we are no closer to a trial date. And that isn’t fair to anyone.” ([11:19])
  • Wishes the accused had been brought to U.S. soil originally—“at this point it would have been over.” ([11:19])
• Brett agrees on this point ([12:05]).

The Toll of Unresolved Grief ([12:07]–[12:38])

• Both describe the advocacy as “mentally taxing,” preventing healing.
  • Brett: “It makes it impossible to heal when here we are 24 years later and we're still fighting for truth. We're still fighting for justice.” ([12:22])
• Sacha Pfeiffer reminds listeners of the personal impact: “…both of you lost your father on 9/11. You both no longer have a dad because of this… families were dearly, dearly harmed on that day.” ([12:38])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elizabeth Miller on her dad:
  “He made everything fun, even if it was something as serious as like practicing for a fire drill.” ([01:31])
• Brett Eagleson on closure:
  “…the justice system works. It may be slow, it may feel painful, but at the end of the day … truly does what it's intended to do.” ([09:39])
• Elizabeth Miller on frustration and yearning for closure:
  “I’ve had enough waiting. I want the same information … And if the pretrial agreements actually moved forward, they had to sign this stipulation of fact, which details every little information…” ([09:44])
• Brett Eagleson on why trials matter:
  “Plea deals avoid a trial, and a trial avoids evidence.” ([07:52])
• Brett Eagleson on emotional cost:
  “It keeps revisiting old wounds and makes it impossible to heal when here we are 24 years later and we're still fighting for truth.” ([12:22])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:00–02:58] – Personal recollections from Miller and Eagleson about their fathers and their aftermath.
• [04:49–05:25] – Host’s overview: why the case is stuck in limbo.
• [05:25–12:38] – In-depth conversation: Miller and Eagleson discuss plea deals vs. trials, transparency, the legal process, and the struggle for closure.

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Tone and Language

The episode is empathetic, thoughtful, and earnest. Both guests candidly share personal losses and advocacy frustrations, while Sacha Pfeiffer and Ari Shapiro keep the tone respectful and focused on emotional and ethical complexity. The language is direct yet sensitive, befitting the gravity of loss and the long search for justice.

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Takeaway

Nearly a quarter-century after 9/11, the families most impacted are still searching for justice, answers, and healing. Caught between a fraught military tribunal process and the competing philosophies about how best to achieve closure, their grief is compounded by the case’s endless delays.

“We’re still fighting for truth. We’re still fighting for justice.” – Brett Eagleson ([12:22])

Transcript

[Ari Shapiro]

Hey, before we get to today's Consider this, we've heard from listeners who say consider this has become part of their daily routine, a way to make sense of things. If that's true for you, please take a couple minutes and leave us a review. It's a small thing, but it really does help people find the show. Thanks. 24 years ago this month, terrorists hijacked four commercial airplanes and crashed two of them into the Twin Towers in New York City. Elizabeth Miller's father rushed in to help. He was part of an elite firefighting company from Staten island called Red Rescue 5. He'd previously been an electrician and had joined Rescue 5 just a few years before.

[Elizabeth Miller]

To have reached that like, prestige in a sense, only six years on the job, I think just speaks to his dedication and how much he really loved it.

[Ari Shapiro]

Doug Miller died when the towers collapsed that day. He was 34 years old. His daughter Liz was 6 and she can still picture him.

[Elizabeth Miller]

Sometimes I can't tell what's my own memory and what's relived through other people or through home videos because my mom used to like follow us around with a camera when we were kids. So there's actually a lot of footage of my dad which is really great.

[Ari Shapiro]

Miller clearly remembers one funny thing her firefighter dad used to do with her and her two siblings.

[Elizabeth Miller]

Him tying this like white thick rope around me and my sister's waist separately and hanging us over the banister and out the bedroom window of my parents bedroom out the house. And it was like these practice fire drills. And the neighbors would be like, doug, what are you doing? He's like, oh, we're just practicing having fun. So he made everything fun, even if it was something as serious as like practicing for a fire drill. Us girls had no idea what it was. We were just having a good time.

[Ari Shapiro]

Bret Eagleson's father also lost his life in the Twin Towers attacks. Bruce Eagleson was a vice president at a company that owned hundreds of malls worldwide. And on 911 he was working temporarily out of the World Trade Center. Bruce Eagleson was 53 years old when he died. Brett was 15 and still recalls his dad's quirky sense of humor.

[Brett Eagleson]

I remember oftentimes when my mom and dad would get into altercations, right about roles in the house and workloads and things like my dad would go to extremes to make a point.

[Ari Shapiro]

When Brett's mom said she wished someone else would help her cook, his dad took it to the next level.

[Brett Eagleson]

I remember one specific argument where my dad actually made menus. So around, around three in the afternoon, we all had menus and we got to pick from the menu. And it was this elaborate menu. And this attention to detail was sort of a funny way to just sort of deal with it, be like, yeah, I'll make dinner and I'm gonna make dinner in like a gourmet style and an experience out of everything that he did.

[Ari Shapiro]

Since losing their fathers, Miller and Eagleson have become advocates for other 911 family members. They're trying to hold the government accountable for the September 11 terrorism case against five men who allegedly helped plan the attacks. Because after all this time, that case has still not gone to trial. Consider this almost a quarter century later, what would justice look like for the family members of 911 victims? From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.

[Ian or Mike (How to Do Everything hosts)]

Hey, everybody, it's Ian and Mike, the hosts of how to Do Everything.

[Brett Eagleson]

That's the show where we take your questions and find overqualified experts to answer them.

[Ian or Mike (How to Do Everything hosts)]

Alex asked us to write his out of office email message, but we don't.

[Brett Eagleson]

Know how to write, so we called up US Poet Laureate Ada Limon.

[Ari Shapiro]

Is this National Public Radio? Sort of technically, yes.

[Ian or Mike (How to Do Everything hosts)]

Season two just dropped. Listen to the how to Do Everything podcast from NPR on How to Do Everything. We take your questions and find phenomenal experts to answer them because we love you. Elizabeth asked us, how do I exercise while I'm in my car?

[Brett Eagleson]

And because we love Elizabeth, we rang up our favorite bodybuilder turned actor turned governor turned actor. Hello, Arnold hello. We're here to talk to you today from npr.

[Ari Shapiro]

Very nice.

[Brett Eagleson]

Season two just dropped. Listen to how to Do It Everything from npr.

[Ian or Mike (How to Do Everything hosts)]

I'm Peter Sagal. NPR is very serious. Mostly it treats newsmakers with all due respect almost all the time. It brings you the most important information about the issues that really matter usually. And it never asks famous people about things they don't know anything about, except once in a while. Join us for the great exception. Listen to Wait, Wait, don't tell me. The news quiz from NPR.

[Ari Shapiro]

It's consider this from NPR. The 911 terrorism case has been in legal limbo for more than a decade, and even government prosecutors have said it will be difficult to take to trial. That's partly because the defendants, including the alleged ringleader of the attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, were tortured in secret CIA prisons. So there are ongoing legal fights over what evidence is admissible. Meanwhile, the accused men are at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and thousands of 911 family members wait for a resolution. NPR's Sacha Pfeiffer takes it from here.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Elizabeth Miller and Brett Eagleson have known each other for a long time, but they hadn't had an in depth, one on one conversation until we asked them to come on NPR's air. I think the two of you have had some communication before, maybe text, maybe email. Have you ever actually met on a Zoom call before?

[Brett Eagleson]

No, I think this is the first time that we're meeting on a zoom, but I've had plenty of emails with Liz and it's been wonderful to connect with her and hear her opinions and her side of the story.

[Elizabeth Miller]

And I feel the same. I think, you know, it's great to be able to tap into one another for more knowledge, but they differ on.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

How to resolve the case. Last summer, plea agreements were reached with the defendants that would have let them plead guilty and spend life in prison rather than continue toward a death penalty trial. Miller supported that, Eagleson opposed it. But those deals have been canceled. And I asked Miller and Eagleson for their reactions.

[Elizabeth Miller]

Yeah, I'll start. My first reaction was excitement that there was finally going to be this, like, potential end in sight. Like, wow, this could finally be over. We could finally have some information. So I was really excited.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

How did you feel when you heard they were canceled?

[Elizabeth Miller]

Of course disappointed. You know, I have been to Guantanamo four times, which amounts basically to about a month of my life, because you go down there for a week to 10 days, and I was just frustrated that a decision wasn't made. I wish that those in power could make a decision in this case and stick to it because this wound is still open. So I think that word like whiplash is very common, but it's what I felt.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

And Brett, can you talk about how you felt when you heard plea deals were inked and then canceled?

[Brett Eagleson]

Not a single person I've talked to was involved in any way with these plea deal agreements. So when folks ask me, how do you feel about plea agreements? Well, I can't give you an honest answer because nobody in our government is willing to share what the details of them are. And it's just another example of how our government has treated us year after year. The reason these plea deals exist is because Liz's father and my father were brutally murdered on live tv. You would think that we would be involved in the process. We should have answers to our questions, and no one's been able to provide those answers. So we were incredibly disheartened to hear that these plea deals were back on the table.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

And Brett, when you heard they were.

[Brett Eagleson]

Canceled, your thoughts A sense of relief. I think it's temporary relief. I understand that there is going to be appeals involved, and there is a chance that the plea deals can be reinstated. But my position sort of remains is that we need to avoid plea deals because plea deals avoid a trial, and a trial avoids evidence. So I think that temporarily there is this sense of relief that at least the worst case scenario cannot pan out, which is these terrorists accept the plea deal, 911 gets wrapped up in a cute box with a bow on it and gets put on a shelf and sort of forgotten about without having discovery, without having interviews, without fully getting our teeth into what these individuals know.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

And, Brett, you've. And I'll come to you, Liz, next, can you lay out, Brett, why you think plea deals are not the way this should end?

[Brett Eagleson]

Well, I'll point to the success that we've had in our lawsuit and our civil litigation in the Southern District in Manhattan.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

This is the federal lawsuit filed by September 11th families, alleging that Saudi Arabia was more involved in the attacks than is currently known.

[Brett Eagleson]

Right. And were it not for discovery, were it not for our ability for our lawyers to get in, have depositions, subpoena information from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, subpoena information from our own FBI, we wouldn't have known what we now know about who supported these hijackers, about the Saudi government's role. There are troves of documents which our government still continues to hide under the guise of state secrets, under the guise of ongoing investigations, and we were able to wrestle a lot of that free, at least in our civil litigation. My point is the justice system works. It may be slow, it may feel painful, but at the end of the day, the justice system, I believe, truly does what it's intended to do.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Liz, would you make your case for why you think plea deals are a good way to resolve the 911 case?

[Elizabeth Miller]

So I think Brett made a lot of good points, but I think the information with Saudi, that happened in a federal court in New York. And so we're using almost this different legal judicial system by means of a military commission. And the rules, it's different than federal court. And so with a pretrial agreement, what I think would be beneficial is that it eliminates the option to appeal, because I've had enough waiting. I want the same information and evidence that Brett does, and I'm very, very sick of waiting for it. And if the pretrial agreements actually moved forward, they had to sign this stipulation of fact, which details every little information of how they got involved in the 911 attacks, what they did to support the attacks and what they did after. And so we would know again their who, what, when, where and why.

[Brett Eagleson]

And I'll just jump in and say that I'll be the first to agree with Liz, that we both want closure, but it doesn't seem sincere when you're being told, don't worry, they're going to sign a statement that says everything that they did. Well, who, who's going to write the statement? And how are we going to vet that? And how can we, how can we count? This is so important because this is the history, this is the historical context. I believe that a trial is going to give us a more accurate sense of what really happened versus what a pre written statement is going to say. So I'm willing to take that risk.

[Elizabeth Miller]

I definitely understand the desire for that information, but I don't know if we're going to get that, whether we have a pretrial agreement or whether we even have a trial at Guantanamo. I don't think we're going to get that information either path with the current military commission system as is. We've been in this same situation with these pretrial hearings that have gone on for 13 years and we are no closer to a trial date. And that isn't fair to anyone. It's not fair to family members. It's not fair to the American people, the people around the world who want to see this case resolved. I just wish that from the start they brought these men to US soil and dealt with it. And I think at this point it would have been over if they were brought to US soil. They either would have been dead or in prison for life and this would have been ended.

[Brett Eagleson]

Agreed. Agreed with that.

[Elizabeth Miller]

And at least we wouldn't have to sit here and stress out about it or talk about what's next. Because I think both Brett and I dedicate so much of our time to all of this. And you know, I'm grateful for him for doing that and I'm sure he's grateful for me. It's a lot of work.

[Brett Eagleson]

Yeah, it's a lot of work. It's mentally taxing. Keeps us away from our families, from our daily lives. It keeps revisiting old wounds and it makes it impossible to heal when here we are 24 years later and we're still fighting for truth. We're still fighting for justice.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Thanks to both of you for doing this. And I want to remind people listening to this that both of you lost your father on 9 11. You both no longer have a dad because of this. And in some ways, I think that ends up that's not as at the forefront of this 911 case conversation as much as it could be that families were dearly, dearly harmed on that day. And both of you share that experience.

[Elizabeth Miller]

Thank you, Sasha.

[Brett Eagleson]

Thanks, Sasha.

[Ari Shapiro]

Elizabeth Miller and Brett Eagleson talking with NPR's Sacha Pfeiffer. This episode was produced by Monika Avstatieva and Michael Levitt, with audio engineering by Becky Brown. It was edited by Barry Hardiman and Quinn Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Ari Shapiro. Immigration raids, masked ICE agents, Operation Patriot. Our podcast Here and Now Anytime is looking at Trump's agenda of mass deportation through the eyes of one state.

[Brett Eagleson]

I'm coming to Boston.

[Ari Shapiro]

I'm bringing hell with me. Listen to the podcast Here and Now Anytime from NPR and wbur on the Throughline podcast from npr. Immigration enforcement might be more visible now, but this moment didn't begin with President Trump's second inauguration or even his first, a series from Throughline about how immigration became political and a cash cow. Listen to Throughline in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Elizabeth Miller]

Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.