Podcast Episode Summary: "The targets of Trump's DOJ are already paying a price"

Podcast: Consider This from NPR
Host: Melissa Nadworny
Date: October 14, 2025

Overview

This episode examines the real-life consequences—particularly financial and emotional—faced by individuals targeted by criminal prosecutions under President Trump’s Department of Justice (DOJ). It discusses how, regardless of guilt or innocence, individuals caught in the crosshairs of politically-motivated legal actions endure steep legal fees, public scrutiny, and deep personal stress. Justice correspondent Kerry Johnson provides context, costs, and profiles of key targets and DOJ players.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cost of Legal Defense: Trump vs. His Targets

• Trump’s Legal Fees

  • Trump faced multiple indictments (federal and state) but could afford legal defense via his wealth and PAC fundraising.
    • Quote:

      "Legal fees I have $100 million worth of legal fees and they're doing good."
      — Donald Trump [00:06]

    • His cases ended with the DOJ dropping charges after his re-election; only in New York was he convicted, but there were no fines or jail.
    • Nevertheless, Trump lost significant money to legal fees.
  • Insight: Legal defense costs are not recoverable, even if ultimately not penalized, highlighting a systemic issue.

• Impacts on Trump’s Political Opponents

  • DOJ, now at Trump’s urging, initiates cases against perceived enemies like former FBI Director James Comey and NY Attorney General Letitia James.

• Irrecoverable Losses

  • Quote:

    “But he won't get back all those fees paid to his lawyers. That's just how the justice system works.”
    — Melissa Nadworny [00:41]

2. High Stakes: Who Pays and How Much?

• Attorney Costs

  • No fixed rule; depends on charges and location.
    • Reviewing evidence, prepping for trial, cross-examining witnesses adds to bills.
  • Quote:

    “Most people have to figure out out of pocket and figure out, do they have a savings? Do they have friends and family that can help them? Do they take mortgages on their homes? It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals.”
    — Lisa Wayne, Executive Director, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers [03:45]

  • Small firm high-profile defense: $1M–$5M
  • Big law/high-profile firm: potential for $25M or more (some partners bill $2,500/hr).
    — Kerry Johnson [04:00]

• Alternatives and Relief

  • Some targets, like James Comey, may benefit from personal relationships; his lawyer, Patrick Fitzgerald, may be donating his time or working at a reduced rate.
  • Adam Schiff, under federal investigation, creates a legal defense fund to cover costs. His attorney calls charges “false, stale and long debunked.”
    — Kerry Johnson [04:25–05:07]

3. DOJ’s Current Approach

• Key DOJ Figure: Ed Martin
  • Missouri lawyer with more political than courtroom experience, heading DOJ’s “Weaponization Working Group.”
  • Unconventional and aggressive approach:
    • Quote:

      “There are some really bad actors... If they can be charged, we'll charge them. But if they can't be charged, we name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be... shamed.”
      — Ed Martin [06:11]

  • This marks a shift; previous DOJ policy did not publically shame those unable to be charged.
  • Observation: New policy blurs the line between prosecution and public punishment, raising concerns about DOJ impartiality.
    — Kerry Johnson [06:26]

4. Beyond Money: Emotional and Reputational Costs

• The Human Toll

  • Families and defendants endure public scrutiny, lasting reputational harm, and emotional hardship.
    • Quote:

      "The emotional pressure on people in these situations can be really intense. Not just a defendant, but also his or her entire family." — Kerry Johnson [06:47]

• Even Acquittal Doesn’t Erase the Damage

  • Example: Michael Sussman, acquitted after expensive, high-profile process, spoke of intense personal hardship:
    • Quote:

      "I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me. But right now we are just grateful for the love and support of so many during this ordeal."
      — Michael Sussman (audio), [07:22] (misattributed to Trump in transcript but contextually Sussman)

  • Historic parallel: Former Labor Secretary under Reagan, acquitted of fraud, asked,
    • Quote:

      "Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?"
      — 1980s Reagan Labor Secretary (attribution by Kerry Johnson) [07:36]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump on His Legal Fees:

  "Legal fees I have $100 million worth of legal fees and they're doing good."
  — Donald Trump [00:06]

• Lisa Wayne on the Realities of Defense:

  "Most people have to figure out out of pocket... It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals."
  — Lisa Wayne [03:45]

• Ed Martin’s New DOJ Tactic:

  "If they can't be charged, we name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be... shamed."
  — Ed Martin [06:11]

• Michael Sussman on Post-Acquittal Relief:

  "I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me."
  — Michael Sussman [07:22]

• On Lost Reputations:

  "Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?"
  — Quoted historical reference [07:36]

Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–01:21 — Trump’s own legal battles and costs
• 01:21–02:55 — Transition to DOJ targeting Trump’s political opponents
• 02:55–07:07 — In-depth conversation with Kerry Johnson on cost of defense, DOJ’s tactics, and costs beyond dollars
  • 03:19 — How much does a good lawyer cost?
  • 04:00 — Estimates for legal fees in high-profile cases
  • 05:42 — DOJ investigators and approach under Ed Martin
  • 06:47 — Emotional and non-financial costs
• 07:22–07:49 — Michael Sussman’s experience and reputation loss
• 07:49–07:52 — Host thanks guest

Conclusion

This episode exposes the extensive and often devastating consequences—financial, emotional, and reputational—that come with being targeted for criminal prosecution in the current political climate, even for those who are never convicted. Through detailed reporting and personal stories, NPR highlights how the justice system, as weaponized by the Trump DOJ, can leave a lasting mark that goes far beyond the courtroom.