The targets of Trump's DOJ are already paying a price

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: "The targets of Trump's DOJ are already paying a price"

Podcast: Consider This from NPR
Host: Melissa Nadworny
Date: October 14, 2025

---

Overview

This episode examines the real-life consequences—particularly financial and emotional—faced by individuals targeted by criminal prosecutions under President Trump’s Department of Justice (DOJ). It discusses how, regardless of guilt or innocence, individuals caught in the crosshairs of politically-motivated legal actions endure steep legal fees, public scrutiny, and deep personal stress. Justice correspondent Kerry Johnson provides context, costs, and profiles of key targets and DOJ players.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cost of Legal Defense: Trump vs. His Targets

• Trump’s Legal Fees

  • Trump faced multiple indictments (federal and state) but could afford legal defense via his wealth and PAC fundraising.
    • Quote:

      "Legal fees I have $100 million worth of legal fees and they're doing good."
      — Donald Trump [00:06]

    • His cases ended with the DOJ dropping charges after his re-election; only in New York was he convicted, but there were no fines or jail.
    • Nevertheless, Trump lost significant money to legal fees.
  • Insight: Legal defense costs are not recoverable, even if ultimately not penalized, highlighting a systemic issue.

• Impacts on Trump’s Political Opponents

  • DOJ, now at Trump’s urging, initiates cases against perceived enemies like former FBI Director James Comey and NY Attorney General Letitia James.

• Irrecoverable Losses

  • Quote:

    “But he won't get back all those fees paid to his lawyers. That's just how the justice system works.”
    — Melissa Nadworny [00:41]

2. High Stakes: Who Pays and How Much?

• Attorney Costs

  • No fixed rule; depends on charges and location.
    • Reviewing evidence, prepping for trial, cross-examining witnesses adds to bills.
  • Quote:

    “Most people have to figure out out of pocket and figure out, do they have a savings? Do they have friends and family that can help them? Do they take mortgages on their homes? It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals.”
    — Lisa Wayne, Executive Director, National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers [03:45]

  • Small firm high-profile defense: $1M–$5M
  • Big law/high-profile firm: potential for $25M or more (some partners bill $2,500/hr).
    — Kerry Johnson [04:00]

• Alternatives and Relief

  • Some targets, like James Comey, may benefit from personal relationships; his lawyer, Patrick Fitzgerald, may be donating his time or working at a reduced rate.
  • Adam Schiff, under federal investigation, creates a legal defense fund to cover costs. His attorney calls charges “false, stale and long debunked.”
    — Kerry Johnson [04:25–05:07]

3. DOJ’s Current Approach

• Key DOJ Figure: Ed Martin
  • Missouri lawyer with more political than courtroom experience, heading DOJ’s “Weaponization Working Group.”
  • Unconventional and aggressive approach:
    • Quote:

      “There are some really bad actors... If they can be charged, we'll charge them. But if they can't be charged, we name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be... shamed.”
      — Ed Martin [06:11]

  • This marks a shift; previous DOJ policy did not publically shame those unable to be charged.
  • Observation: New policy blurs the line between prosecution and public punishment, raising concerns about DOJ impartiality.
    — Kerry Johnson [06:26]

4. Beyond Money: Emotional and Reputational Costs

• The Human Toll

  • Families and defendants endure public scrutiny, lasting reputational harm, and emotional hardship.
    • Quote:

      "The emotional pressure on people in these situations can be really intense. Not just a defendant, but also his or her entire family." — Kerry Johnson [06:47]

• Even Acquittal Doesn’t Erase the Damage

  • Example: Michael Sussman, acquitted after expensive, high-profile process, spoke of intense personal hardship:
    • Quote:

      "I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me. But right now we are just grateful for the love and support of so many during this ordeal."
      — Michael Sussman (audio), [07:22] (misattributed to Trump in transcript but contextually Sussman)

  • Historic parallel: Former Labor Secretary under Reagan, acquitted of fraud, asked,
    • Quote:

      "Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?"
      — 1980s Reagan Labor Secretary (attribution by Kerry Johnson) [07:36]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump on His Legal Fees:

  "Legal fees I have $100 million worth of legal fees and they're doing good."
  — Donald Trump [00:06]

• Lisa Wayne on the Realities of Defense:

  "Most people have to figure out out of pocket... It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals."
  — Lisa Wayne [03:45]

• Ed Martin’s New DOJ Tactic:

  "If they can't be charged, we name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be... shamed."
  — Ed Martin [06:11]

• Michael Sussman on Post-Acquittal Relief:

  "I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me."
  — Michael Sussman [07:22]

• On Lost Reputations:

  "Which office do I go to to get my reputation back?"
  — Quoted historical reference [07:36]

---

Segment Timestamps

• 00:00–01:21 — Trump’s own legal battles and costs
• 01:21–02:55 — Transition to DOJ targeting Trump’s political opponents
• 02:55–07:07 — In-depth conversation with Kerry Johnson on cost of defense, DOJ’s tactics, and costs beyond dollars
  • 03:19 — How much does a good lawyer cost?
  • 04:00 — Estimates for legal fees in high-profile cases
  • 05:42 — DOJ investigators and approach under Ed Martin
  • 06:47 — Emotional and non-financial costs
• 07:22–07:49 — Michael Sussman’s experience and reputation loss
• 07:49–07:52 — Host thanks guest

---

Conclusion

This episode exposes the extensive and often devastating consequences—financial, emotional, and reputational—that come with being targeted for criminal prosecution in the current political climate, even for those who are never convicted. Through detailed reporting and personal stories, NPR highlights how the justice system, as weaponized by the Trump DOJ, can leave a lasting mark that goes far beyond the courtroom.

---

Transcript

[Melissa Nadworny]

Defending yourself against criminal prosecution can get expensive. Just ask President Trump.

[Donald Trump]

Legal fees I have $100 million worth of legal fees and they're doing good.

[Lisa Wayne]

At least I have good lawyers.

[Melissa Nadworny]

That's Trump at a rally in 2023. At the time, he was facing indictments in two federal cases, plus state charges in New York and Georgia. Trump, of course, is personally wealthy. Plus his political action committees contributed tens of millions of dollars to his legal defense. He even fundraised off news of those indictments.

[Donald Trump]

The only crime that I have committed is to fearlessly defend our nation from those who seek to destroy it.

[Melissa Nadworny]

So the legal defense wasn't financially ruinous to Trump personally, but it cost a lot, even though he hasn't faced criminal fines in any of those cases. The the Justice Department walked away from the federal cases against Trump when he was reelected. The Georgia case has stalled and he was convicted in the New York case, but his sentencing came after he was re elected, so he received no fines or prison time. But he won't get back all those fees paid to his lawyers. That's just how the justice system works. Now, at Trump's public urging, the Justice Department has brought criminal charges against some of his perceived political enemies, like former FBI Director James Comey.

[Ed Martin]

My heart is broken for the Department of Justice, but I have great confidence in the federal judicial system and I'm innocent. So let's have a trial.

[Melissa Nadworny]

Consider this. Even if the targets of Trump's Department of Justice are ultimately vindicated in court, facing a prosecution comes with real costs.

[Sponsor Voice]

Foreign.

[Melissa Nadworny]

From npr, I'm Melissa Nadworny.

[Sponsor Voice]

This message comes from Saatva, official mattress and restorative sleep provider for Team USA, who won 231 total medals at the Olympic and Paralympic Games, Paris 2024. But could they have done even better if they were getting deeper restorative sleep? Ron Rudson, Saatva CEO, was determined to find out. So so Saatva will provide mattresses for the LA28 Olympic and Paralympic Games. You can get deep restorative sleep, too. Visit saatva.com NPR and save $200 on.

[Scott Carter]

$1,000 or more we all wonder about life's big questions. Why are we here? What are we to do? And how to make sense of it all? On Ye Gods with Scott Carter, I talk with politicos, priests, actors and atheists on how they wrestle with life's mysteries. Their stories will spark reflection, challenge assumptions, and maybe even bring you some on your own journey. Listen to Ye Gods, part of the NPR Network. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Melissa Nadworny]

It'S consider this from npr. So we mentioned FBI Director James Comey. The Department of Justice also secured an indictment against New York Attorney General Letitia James, another of President Trump's political opponents. And the White House has been signaling more cases may be on the way. So we wanted to ask our justice correspondent Kerry Johnson about the costs of mounting a criminal defense. Hi, Kerry.

[Kerry Johnson]

Hi there.

[Melissa Nadworny]

So first off, how much does a good lawyer cost in this situation?

[Kerry Johnson]

Lawyers tell me there's no golden rule here, but there are a bunch of factors to consider, what charges a person faces, where they are in the country. Defense lawyers will have to review transcripts, FBI files and get ready to cross examine witnesses. Lisa Wayne is executive director of the national association of Criminal Defense lawyers. She's done 150 trials files during her career.

[Lisa Wayne]

Most people have to figure out out of pocket and figure out, do they have a savings? Do they have friends and family that can help them? Do they take mortgages on their homes? It can be a very stressful situation for most individuals.

[Kerry Johnson]

I spoke with three other veteran criminal lawyers who said for these kinds of high profile cases, it could cost a million to $5 million at a small firm and much more at a big law firm where some partners charge $2,500 an hour. Those kind could reach $25 million or more.

[Melissa Nadworny]

Wow, that is a lot of money. Do people facing these kinds of charges have other options?

[Kerry Johnson]

Sometimes. The former FBI director Jim Comey is being represented by his old friend, a former prosecutor called Patrick Fitzgerald at his old law firm, Skadden. Fitzgerald might have commanded more than $2,000 an hour, but he's retired now, working for himself and can set his own rates or even donate his time. Then there's California Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. Schiff, a longtime Trump critic who helped investigate President Trump during his first term in office. Now Schiff is under federal investigation. Here's President Trump talking about that recently at the White House.

[Donald Trump]

It looks like Adam Schiff really did a bad thing. They have him now. Let's see what happens.

[Kerry Johnson]

The issue here is that Schiff has homes in both California and Maryland. Closer to the Senate, Schiff's as he accurately filled out the paperwork and consulted with lawyers and mortgage companies. His attorney, Preet Bharara A. Prominen, a former prosecutor in New York, says these allegations are false, stale and long debunked. Even so, Schiff has created a legal defense fund to help pay his bills. A White House spokeswoman said the DOJ is on the right track. She says the Trump administration will continue to deliver the truth to the American people while restoring integrity and accountability to the justice system.

[Melissa Nadworny]

Kerry, speaking of justice, who is doing the investigating at the Justice Department right now and what do we know about their approach?

[Kerry Johnson]

The key figure is Ed Martin. He's a lawyer from Missouri who has had more experience in politics than in the courtroom. He could not get confirmed by the Senate to be the U.S. attorney in Washington, in part because of his support for the people who rioted at the Capitol in 2021. Instead, he got a different job in charge of the Weaponization Working Group at doj. Here's what Martin said as he started that job.

[Ed Martin]

There are some really bad actors, some people that did some really bad things to the American people. And if they can be charged, we'll charge them. But if they can't be charged, we name them. And in a culture that respects shame, they should be people that are, that are shamed.

[Kerry Johnson]

That is not the way the DOJ policy has worked in the past. Prosecutors are not supposed to be bad mouthing people they can't charge with crimes. But that seems to be the way this DOJ and the White House are approaching Trump's perceived enemies this year.

[Melissa Nadworny]

So we've been talking about dollars and cents of someone's defense, but what about other costs with being charged with a crime?

[Kerry Johnson]

The emotional pressure on people in these situations can be really intense. Not just a defendant, but also his or her entire family. They're in the spotlight sometimes having to sit there and take it while people say terrible things about you. And then even if someone wins an acquittal, they've really been through the Wringer. Think about D.C. lawyer Michael Sussman. He was investigated by a special counsel in connection with his work for Hillary Clinton's campaign. A jury in D.C. found him not guilty of making a false statement to the FBI after two weeks of trial. Here he is outside the courthouse after he won in 2022 despite being falsely accused.

[Donald Trump]

I'm relieved that justice ultimately prevailed in my case. As you can imagine, this has been a difficult year for my family and me. But right now we are just grateful for the love and support of so many during this ordeal.

[Kerry Johnson]

Back in the 1980s, the former Labor Secretary under President Reagan faced fraud charges, but he was acquitted by a jury. He famously said then, which office do I go to to get my reputation back?

[Melissa Nadworny]

That was NPR justice correspondent Kerry Johnson. Thanks, Kerry.

[Kerry Johnson]

Thanks for having me.

[Melissa Nadworny]

This episode was produced by Conor Donovan and Michael Levitt. It was edited by Anna Yukonanoff and Justine Kennan. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. Fits. Consider this from npr. I'm Alyssa Nadworney.

[NPR Politics Podcast Host]

The federal government has shut down. What are lawmakers arguing about and what does it mean for you? The NPR Politics Podcast is here to make sense of it all, giving you updates and news every day to keep you informed. The NPR Politics Podcast Listen every day.

[NPR Shortwave Podcast Host]

Rhinoplasty, the humble nose job. It's one of the most common facial plastic surgeries performed today, but it's been around for over 2,000 years. If you're wondering why, why on earth would doctors thousands of years ago need to reconstruct noses, that's a great question. And on NPR shortwave podcast, we dive into that answer. Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sponsor Voice]

Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.