Consider This from NPR

Episode Summary: Trump and Zelenskyy Meet Again

Date: August 18, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Danielle Kurtzleben (NPR White House Correspondent), Susan Rice (former National Security Advisor)

Main Theme

This episode examines President Trump's efforts to mediate peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, focusing on a high-stakes meeting at the White House with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and several European leaders. The episode analyzes how the dynamics have shifted since Zelenskyy’s last visit, the major sticking points in negotiations, differing perspectives from world leaders, and the broader implications for Ukraine, Russia, and the West.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Backdrop: Previous Tensions and Today’s Contrasting Tone

• The last White House meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy (February 2025) ended acrimoniously, with tense demands for gratitude over U.S. aid and criticisms of Zelenskyy’s attire.

  • Notable moment:
    • JD Vance to Zelenskyy: "You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards right now, you don't have your playing cards." (00:27)
  • Reporter/Critic:
    • "Have you said thank you once?... In this entire meeting, have you said thank you?" (00:47)
    • "Why don't you wear a suit?... Just want to see if you do own a suit." (00:56)

• This time, Zelenskyy arrived in more formal attire and struck a gracious, optimistic tone.

  • Zelenskyy:
    • "I think that we had very good conversation with President Trump." (01:39)
    • "And it really was the best one, or, sorry, maybe the best one will be in the future." (01:43)
  • JD Vance:
    • "I believe a peace agree at the end of all of this is something that's very attainable and it can be done in the near future." (01:31)

2. Peace Talks: Where Do Things Stand?

• Trump met with Putin in Alaska (Aug 15, 2025), followed by a White House summit with Zelenskyy and seven European leaders (Aug 18, 2025).
• Negotiations focus on a possible ceasefire, security guarantees, and contested issues such as land swaps.
  • Danielle Kurtzleben (NPR):
    • European leaders are pushing "politely but firmly" for Ukrainian security guarantees. (04:03)
    • Trump's envoy claims Putin is open to a NATO Article 5-like guarantee for Ukraine, but there is uncertainty and no confirmation from Russia. (04:03)
  • The U.S. side's discussion about guarantees is not mirrored by statements from the Kremlin. (04:42)

3. Ceasefire or Continued Fighting? Divided Opinions

• Ukraine and European leaders (notably German Chancellor and French President) strongly advocate for an immediate ceasefire.

  • Chancellor Merz (paraphrased by Kurtzleben):
    • "The credibility of this work today depends on a ceasefire." (05:05)
  • Zelenskyy:
    • "I can't imagine that the next meeting would take place without a ceasefire. So let's work on that and let's try to put pressure on Russia." (05:20)

• Trump has vacillated on a ceasefire: after meeting Putin, he downplayed its necessity, favoring comprehensive talks while fighting continues.

  • Insight: Continuing the conflict during negotiations risks giving Russia more leverage as the war drags on. (05:31)

4. Land Swaps: Contentious and Largely One-Sided

• Trump broached the idea of “land swaps” based on the "current line of contact," suggesting territorial concessions might be on the table.
  • Danielle Kurtzleben:
    • "Trump was the only leader to talk about this... this is a very contentious issue." (05:56)
  • Russia seeks to legitimize its gains in Crimea and eastern Ukraine; Zelenskyy is adamantly opposed. (06:23)

5. Shifts in Atmosphere and Diplomacy

• Today's meeting featured a marked change in tone—more civility and diplomacy, with Zelenskyy notably more deferential and formally dressed.

  • Danielle Kurtzleben:
    • “There was a big contrast today. Zelensky and Trump... Today was much more civil. There was a major contrast here. Zelensky seemed to make a point of being gracious and thankful, and he also Dr. [dressed?] more formally, which Trump said he appreciated.” (06:32)

• Unlike the last time, Zelenskyy and Trump met alone, creating a less confrontational environment.

6. Next Steps: Trilateral Talks and Uncertain Outcomes

• Trump plans to speak with Putin again and proposes a three-way summit involving himself, Putin, and Zelenskyy. Zelenskyy agrees. (06:58)

7. Expert Analysis: Susan Rice’s Perspective

• Rice provides historical context, likening Trump’s current stance to embracing Russian positions and highlighting European unity behind Ukraine.

  • Susan Rice:
    • “[Trump] has adopted what is essentially the Russian position, which is that a ceasefire isn't necessary, even if it might yet be desirable, but rather to continue the fighting while prolonged negotiations ensue about a lasting peace... That really puts the Ukrainians in a very difficult position because the killing and dying continues. The Russian attacks are relentless... the longer the war goes on, the more will die. And Putin's advantage remains.” (08:08-09:19)
  • The show of European unity at the White House is significant and puts pressure on Trump as well as on Russia. (09:34)

• On security guarantees for Ukraine, Rice is skeptical of Russian willingness:

  • “I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Putin's own words in Alaska were quite clear. He continues to refer to root causes, continues to insist on Russia's interests predominating. He wants to see Ukraine subordinated, if not absorbed into Russia...” (11:05)
  • She notes that Russia categorically rejects any Western presence as part of security guarantees—throwing “a whole lot of cold water” on U.S. claims. (12:08)

• Tri-lateral talks (Trump, Zelenskyy, Putin):

  • Rice: “Well, I think that is the necessary next step if there is to be any progress toward resolving this. Zelensky obviously needs to be at the table. It’s urgent. And that’s the only way forward.” (12:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• JD Vance: “You're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards right now, you don't have your playing cards.” (00:27)
• Reporter: “Have you said thank you once? No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank you?” (00:47)
• Reporter: “Why don't you wear a suit?... You're the highest level in this country's office and you refuse to wear a suit. Just want to see if you do own a suit.” (00:56)
• JD Vance: “I believe a peace agree at the end of all of this is something that's very attainable and it can be done in the near future.” (01:31)
• Zelenskyy: “I think that we had very good conversation with President Trump... maybe the best one will be in the future.” (01:39, 01:43)
• Danielle Kurtzleben: “Trump was the only leader to talk about [land swaps]... this is a very contentious issue.” (05:56)
• Susan Rice: “[Trump] has adopted what is essentially the Russian position... That really puts the Ukrainians in a very difficult position because the killing and dying continues... and Putin’s advantage remains.” (08:08-09:19)
• Susan Rice: “I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Putin's own words in Alaska were quite clear... He wants to see Ukraine subordinated, if not absorbed into Russia.” (11:05)
• Susan Rice: "I don't know if this is a case of [miscommunication] or if it's a Russian bait and switch, but what is clear is that the Russians have reiterated their long standing position that they will not countenance any kind of Western military or security presence in Ukraine." (12:08)

Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:00-01:06: Recap of previous contentious Trump–Zelenskyy encounter
• 01:06-01:51: How this meeting started differently, early optimism, and statements from the leaders
• 03:20-04:42: Update on the ongoing White House summit; focus on security guarantees
• 05:05-06:23: Debate over ceasefire vs. full peace deal; Ukraine and European positions clarified
• 05:56-06:23: Land swaps and why they are controversial
• 06:32-06:56: Change in meeting tone and atmosphere
• 06:58-07:08: Trump’s plans for further direct negotiations with Putin
• 07:27-12:35: Susan Rice’s analysis—implications of current stances, the importance of European unity, skepticism about Russian concessions, and prospects for trilateral talks

Takeaways

• The summit represents a shift toward more diplomatic engagement but is fraught with fundamental disagreements (ceasefire, security guarantees, territorial integrity).
• Trump’s posture appears more aligned with Russian preferences post-Putin meeting, causing concern among Ukraine and its European backers.
• European leaders' backing of Zelenskyy is strong and signals Western unity, but actual leverage over Russia or significant policy breakthroughs remains elusive.
• The next step is likely a high-stakes trilateral meeting; its success hinges on overcoming deep divisions on all major issues.