Pop Culture Happy Hour Host (2:22)

Pop Culture Happy Hour, NPR's Easy, Breezy Laid back pop culture podcast has brought you the best in culture for the past 15 years.

Reporter/Critic (2:30)

That means we spent the last 15 years talking about what exactly?

Pop Culture Happy Hour Host (2:34)

Bad reality TV. Actually good. Marvel movies?

Reporter/Critic (2:37)

Actually awful.

Pop Culture Happy Hour Host (2:38)

Marvel movies Reboots, Pop music, Prestige dramas, Netflix slop. That's 15 years of buzzy pop culture chitchat and here's to many more. With you along for the ride, listen to Pop Culture Happy Hour on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Peter Sagal (2:54)

I'm Peter Sagal. NPR is very serious. Mostly it treats newsmakers with all due respect almost all the time. It brings you the most important information about the issues that really matter usually. And it never asks famous people about things they don't know anything about, except once in a while. Join us for the great exception. Listen to Wait, wait, don't tell me. The news quiz from npr.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:20)

It's consider this from NPR Today at the White House, an extraordinary gathering on very short notice of world leaders attempting to end the war that Russia started in Ukraine. President Trump has been trying to broker an agreement, meeting last week with Russia's president and today with Ukrainian President Validi Zelensky and seven other European leaders. But while Trump and the other leaders want to end the war, they don't agree on how. For more on this, we turn to NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben. Hey, Danielle.

Volodymyr Zelensky (3:54)

Hey, there.

Mary Louise Kelly (3:54)

So these leaders are all at the White House right now? They did. We saw them. They spoke with reporters. They were at a big table with President Trump earlier. What do we know about what's going on?

Danielle Kurtzleben (4:03)

Well, they are meeting as we speak. And just before this meeting, like you said, they talked to reporters. And at that meeting, you heard European leaders politely but firmly push for Ukraine's interests. And one of those is security guarantees for Ukraine. Now, Trump said today that Putin is open to a guarantee. And over the weekend, his envoy, Steve Witkoff, gave a bit more detail on that, saying Putin is open to an Article 5 like guarantee for Ukraine. Now, that refers to NATO's Article 5, which says that an attack on one NATO country would be treated like an attack on all. But all of that said, it's still unclear what exactly such a guarantee would.

Mary Louise Kelly (4:42)

Look like here, not to mention what exactly Russia might be open to, because interestingly, we're hearing all this from the US Side, not from the Kremlin. Danielle, on a ceasefire, Trump has seemed to change his mind about whether one is needed. He said, yes, we gotta get an immediate ceasefire. Then he met Putin in Alaska on Friday, and after that, he said, let's just get into talks and try to work out a full peace deal. What did we hear on this today?

Danielle Kurtzleben (5:05)

Well, there appears to be some difference in opinion here. Ukraine, of course, wants a ceasefire. And you had Chancellor Meirz of Germany and French President Macron really push for one as well. And here's what Mertz said. He said the credibility of this work today depends on a ceasefire.

Volodymyr Zelensky (5:20)

I can't imagine that the next meeting would take place without a ceasefire. So let's work on that and let's try to put pressure on Russia.

Danielle Kurtzleben (5:31)

Now, A ceasefire would stop the fighting before negotiations can happen. That's what Ukraine wants. But aiming for a full peace deal right now, as Trump is now pushing for, means fighting continues, which means Ukraine potentially endures more and more attacks, potentially that Russia drags out the war and that Russia eventually just has more leverage.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:51)

What about the issue of land swaps? That's the term Trump has been using.

Danielle Kurtzleben (5:56)

Well, Trump was the only leader to talk about this. Interestingly, he said that Ukraine and Russia need to talk about this based on the, quote, current line of contact. But in the public remarks of the other leaders, it didn't come up. Now, this is a very contentious issue. Russia already annexed Crimea in 2014. Now it wants more of eastern Ukraine. Zelensky opposes that. So that is one of the biggest question marks we have going forward.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:23)

And I just want to ask about the mood at the White House today. The last time Volodymyr Zelenskyy paid a visit to the Oval Office, things went spectacularly off the rails. How about today?

Danielle Kurtzleben (6:32)

Well, there was a big contrast today. Zelenskyy and Trump and top officials, of course, argued in the Oval Office last February. Today was much more civil. There was a major contrast here. Zelensky seemed to make a point of being gracious and thankful, and he also Dr. More formally, which Trump said he appreciated. Also, Zelensky and Trump were alone this time. It didn't have that one against many feeling.

Mary Louise Kelly (6:56)

And real quick, what's next?

Danielle Kurtzleben (6:58)

Well, Trump said he plans to talk to Putin immediately after the meeting today and also that he wants to set up a trilateral meeting between himself, Zelenskyy and Putin. And Zelenskyy says he agrees.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:08)

That was NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben. For another perspective on these negotiations, let's turn to Susan Rice, who was serving as national security advisor to President Obama back when Russ invaded Crimea in 2014. She was also a domestic policy advisor under President Biden. Susan Rice, welcome.

Susan Rice (7:27)

Thanks, Mary Louise. Good to be with you.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:29)

To what degree does today move the ball forward on ending the war? We saw a very different tone today at the White House than last Friday with Vladimir Putin in Alaska.

Susan Rice (7:39)

I think it's very much unclear. We haven't heard the results of the main meeting with the Europeans and Zelenskyy quite yet, but Zelenskyy did characterize his bilateral as one of the best that he's had. So we have that to go on.

Mary Louise Kelly (7:58)

It was very corpusual, at least from what we could see. When they came out and spoke about it afterwards, Zelenskyy thanking Trump over and over and over. In contrast to the last time they met.

Susan Rice (8:08)

It was definitely a contrast to the last time they met. And even the prolonged pool spray in the Oval Office which preceded the meeting largely avoided any rancor. But I think you have to set this against a larger backdrop, which is that President Trump went to Alaska, rolled out the red carpet, quite literally for Vladimir Putin, and had gone in demanding a ceasefire and threatening sanctions should he not get that, walked away without a ceasefire, withdrew his threat of sanctions, and now we know he has adopted what is essentially the Russian position, which is that a ceasefire isn't necessary, even if it might yet be desirable, but rather to continue the fighting while prolonged negotiations ensue about a lasting peace. That is a position which several of the Europeans objected to publicly today. And that really puts the Ukrainians in a very difficult position because the killing and dying continues. The Russian attacks are relentless, and. And the longer the war goes on, the more we'll die. And Putin's advantage remains.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:19)

Let me ask you about the Europeans who were, as I said, out in full force at the White House. Zelenskyy brought a lot of backup today. It was quite the show of unity. How much does that matter? How much sway do they hold over President Trump or President Putin's next move?

Susan Rice (9:34)

I think it matters quite a bit. I mean, to have Zelensky backed up by the most important European leaders and Trump showing them the deference and respect that they deserve as our core allies. Today is a statement of unity behind Zelensky, which has been needed. And I think that's why I'm very eager to see the outcome of the discussion, because in the public sessions, the president sort of has taken a position that sounds quite a bit like he's representing the Russian absence around the table. You know, Putin is very much committed to peace. Putin wants to end this war. There's nothing about what Putin did or said in Alaska that suggests that. Quite the opposite. But Trump was insisting that a ceasefire may not be necessary, that Putin really wants peace, that he's ready for a trilateral. So having the Europeans there with Zelensky backing him up and having Trump acknowledge their importance, I do think is an.

Mary Louise Kelly (10:44)

Important step as all of these leaders try to find some way to begin to bring this war to an end to the point you just made. Susan Rice, have you seen anything that gives you any glimmer of hope that Vladimir Putin has stepped away from his fundamental view that Ukraine is, is Russia, that it must never join NATO, that its army must be defanged?

Susan Rice (11:05)

I've seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Putin's own words in Alaska were quite clear. He continues to refer to root causes, continues to insist on Russia's interests predominating. He wants to see Ukraine subordinated, if not absorbed into Russia. And then today, Mary Louise, a very important statement out of the Russian Foreign Ministry making it absolutely clear when we're talking about the very important issue on the table today of security guarantees, that Russia is still absolutely unwilling to see any Western forces in Ukraine as part of any kind of security guarantee.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:44)

Well, and this is interesting, sorry to jump on you, but there were all kinds of questions about this today as the European leaders gathered and had this pool spray at the White House over this question of security assurances. The Trump team says they did. Trump envoy Steve Witkoff has said it's a game changer. But, but we've seen nothing from Russia except possibly throwing some cold water on that. So what's going on?

Susan Rice (12:08)

Not some, a whole lot of cold water. I don't know what's going on. There have been other occasions in which Mr. Witkoff has misinterpreted or misunderstood what the Russian position is. I don't know if this is a case of that or if it's a Russian bait and switch, but what is clear is that the Russians have reiterated their long standing position that they will not countenance any kind of Western military or security presence in Ukraine.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:35)

Just about 30 seconds left, but trilateral meeting, Putin, Zelensky, Trump at the table. Good idea.

Susan Rice (12:41)

Well, I think that is the necessary next step if there is to be any progress toward resolving this. I'd like to again see what comes out of the discussion today. Zelensky obviously needs to be at the table. It's urgent. And that's the only way forward, that.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:59)

Is former national security advisor and former US Ambassador to the United Nations, Susan Rice. Ambassador Rice, thanks.

Susan Rice (13:06)

Thank you, Mary Louise.

Mary Louise Kelly (13:09)

This episode was produced by Megan Lim and Mia Van Catt. It was edited by Christopher Inteliata, Andrew Sussman, Tara Neal and Nadia Lancy. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun.

J.D. Vance (13:21)

Foreign.

Mary Louise Kelly (13:25)

It's Consider this from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

NPR Politics Host (13:30)

Do you ever look at political headlines and go, huh? Well, that's exactly why the NPR Politics podcast exists. We're experts not just on politics but in making politics make sense, every episode we decode everything that happened in Washington and help you figure out what it all means. Give politics a chance with the NPR Politics podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts.

Reporter/Critic (13:55)

On the next through line from NPR.

NPR Throughline Host (13:57)

The man who saw a dangerous omission in the US Constitution and took it upon himself to fix it.

Volodymyr Zelensky (14:04)

If something happened to a president who was still alive, the consequences for the country would have been enormous.

NPR Throughline Host (14:12)

The 25th Amendment listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus@plus.NPR.org that's plus.NPR.org.