Trump calls alleged smugglers 'unlawful combatants'. That term has a history.

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Consider This from NPR

Episode Title: Trump calls alleged smugglers 'unlawful combatants'. That term has a history.
Air Date: November 2, 2025
Host: Sacha Pfeiffer
Guest: Scott Anderson (Fellow, Brookings Institution; former US diplomat and government attorney)

---

Episode Overview

This episode examines the Trump administration’s recent use of the term "unlawful combatant" to categorize people killed in US military strikes on suspected drug-smuggling boats. The hosts and guest unpack the legal origins and implications of the term, its reappearance in this new context, and what it could mean for current and future US policy. The discussion highlights historical precedent, legal controversies, and questions about executive power.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Historical Use of "Unlawful Combatant"

• After 9/11: The Bush administration labeled detainees at Guantanamo Bay as "unlawful combatants" to deny them prisoner-of-war protections under the Geneva Conventions.
• Indefinite Detention: Many were held for years without charges, in inhumane conditions, despite lacking proven links to terrorism.
• Quote:

  “By labeling them unlawful combatants, the US said it was justified in holding them indefinitely without trial and denying them international legal protections.”
  — Sacha Pfeiffer [00:32]

2. Application Under Trump Administration

• The Trump administration is now using the same term for people allegedly transporting drugs by boat from South America, broadening the application from terrorism to drug smuggling.
• Recent Military Actions: US military airstrikes killed at least 60 people on 15 boats thus far, all designated as “unlawful combatants.”
• Quote:

  “President Trump is now applying the post-9/11 term 'unlawful enemy combatant' to very different circumstances. What are the wider legal implications of that language?”
  — Sacha Pfeiffer [01:12]

3. Legal and Symbolic Consequences

• Scott Anderson explains the terminology’s journey and its consequences:
  • After 9/11, it justified avoiding international law for detainees.
  • The term fell out of use, replaced by “unprivileged enemy belligerent.”
  • Its return signals a symbolic, and potentially legal, shift.
• Quote:

  “Returning to [the term] is symbolically notable… Arguably, yes, defendants could then likely get fewer legal protections than a traditional criminal defendant or prisoner of war would.”
  — Scott Anderson [03:51, 04:16]

4. Limitations Due to Legal Precedent

• Supreme Court Pushback: Since the early 2000s, numerous judicial and legislative actions have curbed presidential power to detain and mistreat so-called "unlawful combatants."
• Anderson believes these would “make it very difficult” for a repeat of early 2000s indefinite detentions.

5. Legal Consensus on Current Use

• Consensus Among Legal Experts: Most outside legal scholars do not agree with using the “unlawful combatant” designation for suspected drug smugglers.
• The panel argues this is not a war scenario, making such terminology misleading and inappropriate.
• Quote:

  “Most lawyers looking at this say this should not even be viewed through the lens of the law of armed conflict at all, because this is not a war… The reality is it’s something extremely different. You would view this as very close to state-sanctioned murder or targeted killings.”
  — Scott Anderson [04:54]

6. Transparency, Accountability, and Judicial Review

• Lack of Clarity: It’s unclear who exactly was on the targeted boats. The administration’s claims are largely unverified.
• Survivors have typically been deported rapidly, likely to avoid subjecting actions to judicial scrutiny.
• If detainees were held longer, especially on US soil, they could seek judicial review—which the administration appears to be avoiding.
• Quote:

  “Where they’re killed, there’s not a clear avenue to judicial review… If someone stays alive, you have a much more complicated legal situation.”
  — Scott Anderson & Sacha Pfeiffer [07:13, 07:19]

7. Political Rhetoric and Distraction

• Anderson suggests use of this vocabulary is “a big feint” to drive focus away from the legality or morality of the actions, mirroring post-9/11 tactics.
• Quote:

  “They want people to talk about the technicalities... and the more fundamental question that people really need to confront about this is, is this anything like what happened after 9/11? And it absolutely is not.”
  — Scott Anderson [07:19]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Legal Stretch:

  “Most lawyers looking at this say this should not even be viewed through the lens of the law of armed conflict at all, because this is not a war...”
  — Scott Anderson [04:54]

• On Judicial Review:

  “It’s easier when everyone dies. When someone stays alive, you have a much more complicated legal situation.”
  — Sacha Pfeiffer & Scott Anderson [07:13, 07:19]

• On Political Distraction:

  “Bringing up all this terrorist rhetoric and drawing focus on these questions… they’re able to distract, frankly, from a lot of that conversation.”
  — Scott Anderson [08:03]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:00] — Context: Post-9/11 origins of “unlawful combatant”
• [01:12] — Trump administration's new application of the term
• [03:15] — Guest (Scott Anderson) explains legal background
• [04:08] — Legal implications of using the term again
• [04:54] — Legal consensus on military strikes and terminology
• [05:47] — Lack of clarity about victims and legal process
• [07:13] — Survivors, judicial review, and administration tactics
• [07:19] — Political motives and distraction from core legal issues

---

Summary

This episode provides a concise yet thorough exploration of how language shapes, and sometimes obscures, presidential authority and legal process. The application of “unlawful combatant” to suspected drug smugglers represents a significant expansion—and distortion—of legal terminology originally rooted in wartime terrorism. The dialogue makes clear that such legal maneuvering not only stretches the law but also limits scrutiny, raising deep concerns about transparency, accountability, and human rights.

---

Transcript

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

After the attacks on september eleventh two thousand one the george w bush administration arrested hundreds of suspected terrorists most of them were never criminally charged and eventually let go some spent years in inhumane conditions even though they had no connection to the taliban or al qaeda in two thousand two defense secretary donald rumsfeld visited guantanamo bay cuba where many of those prisoners were being held and described them using this term and one of the most important aspects of the geneva convention is the destruction between lawful combatants and unlawful combatants by labeling them unlawful combatants the us said it was justified in holding them indefinitely without trial and denying them international legal protections the trump administration is now applying the same term to people on board boats it's blowing up because it says they're transporting drugs from south america the language here matters it underpins the legal arguments presidents make to justify their actions and here's current defense secretary pete hegseth referring to the cartels that ship drugs from the southern hemisphere to the united states so our.

[Scott Anderson]

Message to these foreign terrorist organizations is we will treat you like we have.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Treated al qaeda consider this president trump is now applying the post nine eleven term unlawful enemy combatant to very different circumstances what are the wider legal implications of that language foreign from npr i'm sacha pfeiffer.

[BetterHelp/Mint Mobile Sponsor]

This message comes from betterhelp most fsa dollars expire at the end of the year so it's time to use em or lose em with betterhelp you can invest those funds in taking care of your mind with online therapy join today and you can be matched with a licensed therapist in as little as twenty four hours visit betterhelp dot com npr to get ten percent off.

[Warby Parker/Mint Mobile Sponsor]

Your first month support for npr and the following message come from warby parker the one stop shop for all your vision needs they offer expertly crafted prescription eyewear plus contacts eye exams and more for everything you need to see visit your nearest warby parker store or head to warbyparker dot com this message comes from mint mobile at mint mobile their favorite word is no no contracts no monthly bills no hidden fees plans start at fifteen dol make the switch at mintmobile dot com switch that's mintmobile dot com switch upfront payment of forty five dollars for three month five gb plan required equivalent to fifteen dollars a month new customer offer for first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

It'S consider this from npr over the weekend the us said it conducted a military airstrike on a boat in the caribbean killing three people that means so far the us has struck at least fifteen boats and killed more than sixty people whom it's calling unlawful combatants we wanted to understand the history of that term so we called scott anderson a former us diplomat and government attorney who's now a fellow at the.

[Scott Anderson]

Brookings institution so the term unlawful enemy combatant first came into common usage after the nine eleven attacks as part of arguments the us government advanced as to why members of al qaeda and the taliban and related terrorist groups didn't have to be provided with the full bundle of rights and protections that are usually provided to prisoners of war under international law pursuant to the geneva conventions and the related treaties and areas of international.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Law we should remind people who may not have been born yet that basically that allowed them to arrest hundreds of suspected terrorists and then hold them indefinitely at guantanamo some of them are still.

[Scott Anderson]

There today that's correct and now particularly in the last ten or fifteen years the term has fallen out of use usually we hear the somewhat more technical international law term unprivileged enemy belligerent used instead of unlawful enemy combatants so returning to it is symbolically notable and by.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Returning to the term would those defendants then likely get fewer legal protections than a traditional criminal defendant or traditional prisoner.

[Scott Anderson]

Of war would arguably yes potentially i mean congress has installed a lot of protections since that time and the supreme court has pushed back on some of these interpretations the reality is the trump administration would have a very hard time doing that because we have more than two decades of intervening supreme court decisions and legislation that would make it very difficult and that set up pretty clear limits on substantial aspects of what the bush administration did but it may suggest that they want to push more in that direction then us policy has drifted in the intervening years is there a.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Majority legal view on whether the term is justified in these boat strikes it.

[Scott Anderson]

Is i think almost the consensus view among outside legal experts that it is not more than that and this gets to the use of this term as a way to kind of obfuscate the legal barrier here most lawyers looking at this say this should not even be viewed through the lens of the law of armed conflict at all because this is not a war this is the use of military violence against people who would traditionally be viewed as civilians and in trying to use these sometimes controversial terms associated with the war on terrorism the administration is trying to make this all look like just something like the war on terrorism and the reality is it's something extremely different you would view this as very close to state sanctioned murder or targeted killings we should note.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

That you refer to the people on these boats as i think trying to harm the us we should also note that it's unclear who was on the boats we're at this point going by the word of the white house that these were drug smugglers so it's the details of exactly who was killed are.

[Scott Anderson]

Pretty scant very good point absolutely and that's also part of the problem here i mean in the law of armed conflict framework you have are a situation where it is up to the targeting power the state that's perusing violence to apply a bunch of standards to ensure that they're adequately distinguishing between civilians and military targets so even if you take the government's framing the trump administration's framing this as an armed conflict a lot of obligations still apply and we haven't got a lot of information about how they're complying with it even within this framework the administration is advancing most of.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

The people on those boats have been killed but a few have lived and so far they've been sent back to their home countries i believe if there are more strikes and more people survive does calling them unlawful combatants potentially lay the groundwork for holding them indefinitely whether at guantanamo or elsewhere it potentially could.

[Scott Anderson]

That was the original use of the unlawful enemy combatant language but i think more realistically seeing what the trump administration has done with them which is return them very quickly to their country countries of origin instead of detaining them and potentially facing that judicial review i think is a strong indicator they don't have a lot of confidence in their legal arguments and they don't want to subject them to that review and it's better to just return these people and unfortunately where they're killed there's not a clear avenue to judicial review like there is if they're detained by the united states or at least there's possibilities of judicial.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

Review so in some ways it's easier when everyone dies when someone stays alive you have a much more complicated legal.

[Scott Anderson]

Situation precisely i really think the use of unlawful enemy combatant like the use of terrorism designations both real and imagined is a big feint by the administration they want people to talk about the technicalities of these things to say is this a london law enemy commandant and the more fundamental question that people really need to confront about this is that is this anything like what happened after nine eleven and it absolutely is not but in bringing up all this terrorist rhetoric and all these terms and drawing focus on these questions of is this the right use of this designation of this term of this technicality they're able to distract frankly from a lot of.

[Sacha Pfeiffer]

That conversation scott anderson is a fellow at the brookings institution thank you very much for talking about this thank you this episode was produced by avery keatley and gabriel sanchez it was edited by ahmad daman our executive producer is sami yenigun it's consider this from npr i'm sacha pfeiffer.

[BetterHelp/Mint Mobile Sponsor]

This message comes from mint mobile starting at fifteen dollars a month make the switch at mintmobile dot com switch forty five dollars upfront payment for three months five gigabyte plan equivalent to fifteen dollars a month taxes and fees extra first three months only see terms this message comes from carvana selling doesn't need to be stressful with carvana it's quick easy and all online enter your license plate get a real offer and get paid visit carvana dot com to sell your car today this message comes.

[Warby Parker/Mint Mobile Sponsor]

From mint mobile at mint mobile their favorite word is no no contracts no monthly bills no hidden fees plans start at dollar fifteen a month make the switch at mintmobile dot com switch that's mintmobile dot com switch upfront payment of forty five dollars for three month five gb plan required equivalent to fifteen dollars a month new customer offer for first three months only then full price plan options available taxes and fees extra see mint mobile for details.