Trump says no one cares about Epstein. Why won't his base let it go?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Consider This from NPR
Episode: "Trump says no one cares about Epstein. Why won't his base let it go?"
Release Date: July 18, 2025

In this episode of NPR's Consider This, host Ailsa Chang delves into the enduring controversy surrounding former President Donald Trump’s connection to Jeffrey Epstein and examines why this issue continues to resonate deeply with Trump's base. The discussion navigates through political narratives, conspiracy theories, and the role of influential figures within the FBI who have fueled ongoing skepticism about Epstein’s death and the broader implications for American society.

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1. Introduction: The Epstein Narrative in Trump's Movement

Ailsa Chang opens the episode by highlighting a central theme within President Trump's political movement—the belief that American society is controlled by a corrupt elite. This narrative is epitomized by the Jeffrey Epstein case, which has become a focal point for conspiracy theories among Trump's supporters.

• Chang: "One of the narratives at the heart of President Trump's political movement is American society is dominated by a shadowy group of elites, and those elites are deeply corrupt. Nothing represented that theory more than the case of Jeffrey Epstein." [00:00]

Ryan Lucas adds context by briefly outlining Epstein’s background and the mysterious circumstances surrounding his death, which have fueled widespread skepticism.

• Lucas: "Epstein was a man most people had never heard of... he ultimately died in jail by suicide, according to authorities, before the case against him ever went to trial." [00:22]

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2. Trump's Connection to Jeffrey Epstein

The hosts explore Donald Trump's personal ties to Epstein, revealing a past friendship and shared social circles that have become points of contention and speculation.

• Chang: "Trump did have his own history with Epstein. The two became friends. In the 1980s, Trump flew on Epstein's private plane...” [01:20]

A 2002 statement from Trump regarding Epstein is discussed, where he acknowledges Epstein’s penchant for companionship with younger women.

• Trump (2002): "He's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side." [01:20]

However, their relationship soured over time, with Trump distancing himself, as evidenced by his 2019 remarks.

• Trump (2019): "I had a falling out with him a long time ago. I don't think I've spoken to him for 15 years. I wasn't a fan." [01:53]

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3. Renewed Scrutiny and Trump's Responses

Fast forward six years, Trump revisits the Epstein saga during his second term, asserting that the Epstein case lacks substantial public interest—a claim met with resistance from his loyal base.

• Trump: "It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going." [02:32]

Despite Trump's dismissive stance, his supporters remain fixated on uncovering the supposed hidden truths behind Epstein's network, particularly regarding the alleged client list.

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4. The Role of FBI Leadership and Promoted Conspiracy Theories

Ryan Lucas examines how influential figures within the FBI, including Director Cash Patel and Deputy Director Dan Bongino, have perpetuated conspiracy theories about Epstein, exacerbating demands for transparency among MAGA supporters.

• Lucas: "They set certain expectations about the Epstein files as well as expectations for transparency." [05:26]

Mike Johnson, a Republican House Speaker, is featured advocating for the release of Epstein’s client list, reflecting the pressure within Trump’s circle.

• Johnson: "It's a very delicate subject... we should put everything out there and let the people decide it." [05:12]

Cash Patel engages with right-wing podcaster Glenn Beck, questioning the secrecy surrounding Epstein’s associations.

• Beck: "Has Jeffrey Epstein's black book? Black book FBI. But who that is that." [06:24]

Similarly, Dan Bongino, formerly a podcaster with a significant right-wing following, leverages his platform to disseminate unfounded theories.

• Bongino: "The Epstein client list is a huge deal because it speaks to an enormous problem we have in this country." [07:05]

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5. DOJ’s Official Stance and Potential Legal Actions

The Justice Department recently issued a memo affirming that Epstein died by suicide and denying the existence of a client list, directly challenging the conspiracy theories promoted by Trump and his allies.

• Lucas: "The DOJ memo... said that Epstein did indeed kill himself... there is no Epstein client list." [04:36]

Trump's administration, however, has pushed back against these conclusions. Trump threatens legal action against media outlets reporting on alleged incriminating evidence, such as an alleged birthday note from 2003, which he labels as fake.

• Trump: "He wants his supporters to move on." [02:32]

Additionally, Trump has instructed the Attorney General to release all pertinent grand jury testimony, pending court approval.

• Lucas: "The president has asked the attorney General to produce any and all pertinent grand jury testimony...” [09:35]

This move is seen as an attempt to quell the persistent demands for transparency, though it remains uncertain whether additional information will satisfy the demands of Trump’s base.

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6. Implications and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with an analysis of the broader implications of the Epstein case within Trump’s continued influence. As pressure mounts for transparency, the integrity of governmental institutions and the perpetuation of conspiracy theories present significant challenges to public trust.

• Lucas: "Trump himself... did say during the campaign that he was in favor of releasing Epstein's purported client list." [08:19]

The potential release of grand jury testimony may offer some answers, but it is unclear if this will significantly shift public perception or satisfy the demands of those who believe in a vast, corrupt elite.

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Conclusion

In "Trump says no one cares about Epstein. Why won't his base let it go?", NPR's Consider This provides a comprehensive examination of the intersection between political narratives, conspiracy theories, and institutional responses surrounding the Jeffrey Epstein case. The episode underscores the complexities of addressing deeply ingrained beliefs within political movements and the ongoing struggle for transparency and accountability in high-profile legal matters.

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Notable Quotes:

• Donald Trump (2024 interview): "A lot of big people went to that island, but fortunately, I was not one of them." [00:55]

• Mike Johnson: "It's a very delicate subject, but we should put everything out there and let the people decide it." [05:12]

• Dan Bongino: "The Epstein client list is a huge deal because it speaks to an enormous problem we have in this country." [07:05]

• Cash Patel: "Has Jeffrey Epstein's black book...” [06:24]

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Production Credits:

• Produced by: Connor Donovan and Alejandra Marquez Hanse
• Audio Engineering: Ted Mebane
• Edited by: Courtney Dorning and Krishna Dev Kalimore
• Executive Producer: Sami Yenigun

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For more episodes and detailed analysis, visit plus.npr.org/considerthis.

Transcript

[Ailsa Chang]

One of the narratives at the heart of President Trump's political movement is American society is dominated by a shadowy group of elites, and those elites are deeply corrupt. Nothing represented that theory more than the case of Jeffrey Epstein.

[Ryan Lucas]

A billionaire financier is in custody, sources say. Accused of trafficking girls in Florida and.

[Ailsa Chang]

New York for sex, Epstein was a man most people had never heard of, initially with a private plane and a private island, acquainted with the world's most powerful people, British royalty, US Presidents, a man who ultimately died in jail by suicide, according to authorities, before the case against him ever went to trial. Epstein's case and his death bred skepticism and conspiracy theories, especially among supporters of Donald Trump. Trump nodded to that in a 2024 interview with podcaster Lex Friedman.

[Donald Trump]

A lot of big people went to that island, but fortunately, I was not one of them.

[Mike Johnson]

It's just very strange for a lot of people that the list of clients that went to the island has not been made public.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, it's, it's very interesting, isn't it? Probably will be, by the way.

[Mike Johnson]

So if you're able to, you'll be, yeah, certainly.

[Donald Trump]

Take a look at it.

[Ailsa Chang]

The thing is, Trump did have his own history with Epstein. The two became friends. In the 1980s, Trump flew on Epstein's private plane, according to flight logs that were released as evidence in court. And Trump told New York magazine this in 2002 that, quote, he's a lot of fun to be with. It is even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side. At some point, the two men had some sort of falling out, as Trump told reporters in 2019.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I knew him like everybody in Palm beach knew him. I mean, people in Palm beach knew him. He was a fixture in Palm Beach. I had a falling out with him a long time ago. I don't think I've spoken to him for 15 years. I wasn't a fan.

[Ailsa Chang]

Well, six years later, Trump is again answering questions about Jeffrey Epstein. Some of Trump's most ardent supporters are attacking his Justice Department's decision not to release all the files related to the Epstein case. And Trump is threatening to sue the Wall Street Journal for a story about an alleged off color birthday note from Trump to Epstein back in 2003. He says it's fake. And Trump, he wants his supporters to move on.

[Donald Trump]

It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going.

[Ailsa Chang]

Consider this. President Trump says nobody cares about Jeffrey Epstein, but his base won't let it go. From npr, I'm Ilsa Chang.

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[Ailsa Chang]

It's Consider this from NPR. Who would have thought that a suicide and federal lockup during President Trump's first term would be a major speed bump six years later in Trump's second term? NPR justice correspondent Ryan, Ryan Lucas has been looking into the turmoil in MAGA world and joins us now. Hi, Ryan.

[Ryan Lucas]

Hi there.

[Ailsa Chang]

Can you just remind us why the Epstein case is getting so much attention now years after his death?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, the immediate trigger here is the Justice Department and FBI memo from last week that said that Epstein did indeed kill himself. He wasn't murdered as some conspiracy theorists think. It also said that there is no Epstein client list, that he wasn't blackmailing associates. But importantly, it also said that no further information was would be made public. And that last bit in particular really did not go down well with many in Trump's MAGA base who want these files made public so they can see and judge for themselves. Even Republican House Speaker Mike Johnson has called for transparency on this. Here he is this week speaking with right wing, right wing podcaster Benny Johnson.

[Mike Johnson]

It's a very delicate subject, but we should, we should put everything out there and let the people decide it.

[Ryan Lucas]

Johnson has since said that he was misquoted, but that's the tape.

[Ailsa Chang]

Okay. And why has this of all the things, been such a sticking point?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, there are a couple of reasons, but to a certain extent it's because Trump and some of his top lieutenants now, including FBI Director Cash Patel have themselves over the years push some of the conspiracy theories that we've heard around Epstein. So they set certain expectations about the Epstein files. And by that, I mean expectations of what's in the files as well as expectations for transparency.

[Ailsa Chang]

Okay, let's start with what they have said in the past about Epstein.

[Ryan Lucas]

So they've said a lot. So there are plenty of examples. Patel, for example, spent a lot of time during the Biden administration making media appearances on conservative podcasts, sometimes talking about Epstein. Here he is talking to Benny Johnson in 2023 about a purported Epstein client list.

[Mike Johnson]

What the hell are the House Republicans doing? They have the majority. You can't get the list. Put on your big boy pants and. And let us know who the pedophiles are.

[Ryan Lucas]

Another example is an exchange that Patel had with right wing media figure Glenn beck again in 2023. Here's Beck asking Patel about Epstein, who.

[Mike Johnson]

Has Jeffrey Epstein's black book. Black book FBI. But who that is that. I mean, there's. That's under direct control of the Director of the FBI.

[Ryan Lucas]

Now, just a reminder, Patel is right now the director of the FBI. And right now the FBI and the DOJ say there is no Epstein client list. But Patel isn't the only one who pushed these sorts of conspiracy theories. His number two at the FBI, Deputy Director Dan Bongino, used to be the host of his own podcast, a very popular one, particularly with folks on the right. And Bongino used the enormous reach of that podcast to promote conspiracy theories about Epstein and his associates. Here's a snippet of Bongino from last September.

[NPR Host]

Folks, The Epstein client list is a huge deal because it speaks to an enormous problem we have in this.

[Donald Trump]

In this country.

[NPR Host]

It is that there is a connected class of insiders that feel that they can get away with anything because they can.

[Ailsa Chang]

Okay, Ryan, what have both Patel and Bongino said now that they sit in the top jobs at the FBI and have overseen the review of all these files?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, they've both said publicly that Epstein died by suicide, knocking down the conspiracy theory that he was murdered. They haven't addressed the other issues, though, things like a client list or the fact that nothing else has been released. But Patel did speak to podcaster Joe Rogan last month, so. Well, before the department put out its Epstein memo, and Patel pushed back on the idea that he would hide anything.

[Mike Johnson]

Do you think that myself, Bongino and others would participate in hiding information about Epstein's grotesque activities? Or do you think we would also participate in not prosecuting people. We had evidence to prosecute people on. But the problem is there's been like, 15 years of people coming in and creating fictions about this that doesn't exist.

[Ryan Lucas]

No, he didn't say anything about his own potential role creating fictions about this.

[Ailsa Chang]

Right. Okay. Well, I mean, isn't some of the anger now among Trump supporters because of promises this administration has actually made about transparency on this very exact issue?

[Ryan Lucas]

I think that's right, yeah. Trump himself, of course, did say during the campaign that he was in favor of releasing Epstein's purported client list. And once he was back in office, his attorney general, Pam Bondi, promised transparency on this. She hyped the release of a first batch of Epstein files in February. Everything in that batch, by and large, turned out to already have been known. She took some heat over that. But Bondi's own public statements have certainly contributed to the blowback that we've seen. And I'll point you specifically to an interview that she did with Fox News in February in which she was asked about Epstein. Here's how that went. And this is something Donald Trump has talked about.

[Donald Trump]

The DOJ may be releasing the list.

[Ryan Lucas]

Of Jeffrey Epstein's clients. Will that really happen? It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump. Now, Bondi now says she was referring to the Epstein files in general, not a client list specifically. But that clip of tape has been played over and over in the past few weeks because what she says directly contradicts the final conclusion from the Justice Department that there is no such client list.

[Ailsa Chang]

Exactly. Okay, so where does all this go from here?

[Ryan Lucas]

Well, the president has asked the attorney General to produce any and all pertinent grand jury testimony, testimony subject to a court approval on Epstein. Bondi has said she's ready to do that. A judge will have to sign off. So we shall see whether those materials, even though it's going to be just a slice of what the investigation found, will silence the demands for transparency.

[Ailsa Chang]

That is NPR's Ryan Lucas. Thank you, Ryan.

[Ryan Lucas]

Thank you.

[Ailsa Chang]

This episode was produced by Connor Donovan and Alejandra Marquez Hanse, with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by Courtney Dorning and Krishna Dev Kalimore. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Ailsa Cheng.

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