What happens if Antifa is labeled a foreign terrorist organization

Summary

Podcast Summary: Consider This from NPR

Episode: What Happens If Antifa Is Labeled a Foreign Terrorist Organization
Air Date: October 27, 2025
Host: Juana Summers

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the profound implications of the Trump administration’s consideration to designate Antifa—an anti-fascist movement—as a foreign terrorist organization. The conversation explores the legal mechanics, precedents, and potential consequences such a move could have on civil liberties, social media, academia, and American society at large.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Use of the "Foreign Terrorist Organization" Designation

• Increased Utilization: Secretary of State Marco Rubio has aggressively expanded the list, favoring the designation as a law enforcement tool, particularly against drug cartels.
  • Juana Summers (00:00): “Since he took office, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has made heavy use of three very powerful words—foreign terrorist organization.”
  • So far, Rubio has designated 19 new foreign terrorist organizations, compared to 4 under the entire Biden administration.
• Scope of Designation:
  • Marco Rubio (00:31): “It means that we can now, number one, go after the money, the properties, the banking system of anyone who's related to these groups.”
  • Enables international intelligence sharing: “It opens up intelligence sharing with foreign governments.” (00:43)

2. Shift Toward Domestic Movements

• Antifa as Target: President Trump is now considering pushing this tool further by targeting Antifa, a largely domestic, anti-fascist movement, following recommendations at a White House roundtable with right-wing influencers.
  • Donald Trump (03:47): “Do you think it would help?... Let's get it done. Okay, let's get it done. Marco, we'll take care of it.”
• Potential Threat to Civil Liberties: Juana Summers frames the move as significant for freedom of speech and association. (01:19)

3. Legal and Practical Challenges

• Antifa's Structure:
  • Jason Blazakis, former State Department official (04:13): “I do think it would be a highly dangerous step for the administration to pursue.”
  • Not a traditional organization: “It's more of a movement of disparately linked people who share an ideology, which is that fascism is bad.” (04:18)
  • Blazakis (04:46): “I would really call on the State Department or the US Government to tell us who the leader of ANTIFA is and where they are based.”
• Legality of Applying a Foreign Designation:
  • Must be a cohesive, non-domestic group engaging in terrorism.
  • Blazakis (05:03): “If there is a domestic nexus that represents a significant domestic presence of that group, you wouldn't be able to proceed with a designation.”
• Stretching Legal Definitions: Administration could “stretch the truth” to make the designation stick.

4. Ramifications and Consequences

A. Criminal Liability

• Material Support Law:
  • Ryan Lucas (06:03): “Material support is broadly defined and can mean something as small as a $10 gift card or a bottle of water. That charge... could be brought against anyone associated with what the administration deems to be antifa.”
  • Thomas Brzozowski, former DOJ counsel (06:09): “When that foreign terrorist organization is so ill defined ... that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.”

B. Civil Society and Free Speech

• Impact on Social Media & Academia:
  • Social platforms might restrict or report any content deemed related to Antifa. (06:25)
  • Universities could cancel conferences or restrict research; insurers could back away from universities or think tanks touching anything “remotely concerned [with] anti-fascism.” (07:09)
  • Blazakis (07:09): “It sounds crazy, Kafkaesque, but that's what this designation would bring into play.”
• Potential for Wide-Reaching Censorship and Risk to Dissent:
  • The episode highlights the “cascading effect” and how the broad definition could sweep in a large swath of legitimate civic activity.

5. The Political Calculus and Likelihood

• White House Push: The roundtable and public instructions to pursue the designation are highly unusual and suggest administration resolve.
  • Brzozowski (07:35): “I think they might do it. People aren't ready for it... If that goes through, I'm telling you. Unbelievable.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[Antifa] is not a functioning group like ISIS or Al Qaeda, which had clear leadership and a hierarchy... It's more of a movement of disparately linked people who share an ideology, which is that fascism is bad.”
  — Jason Blazakis (04:18)

• “Material support is broadly defined and can mean something as small as a $10 gift card or a bottle of water.”
  — Ryan Lucas (06:03)

• “It sounds crazy, Kafkaesque, but that's what this designation would bring into play.”
  — Jason Blazakis (07:09)

• “If that goes through, I'm telling you. Unbelievable.”
  — Thomas Brzozowski (07:54)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• 00:00 – 01:19: Introduction and Rubio’s expansion of terrorism designations.
• 01:19 – 02:49: Trump administration's contemplation of applying the label to Antifa.
• 02:49 – 04:46: Legal nuances and expert analysis on Antifa’s structure and foreign nexus.
• 04:46 – 05:12: Requirements for foreign terrorist designation; challenges in Antifa’s context.
• 05:12 – 06:53: Immediate and cascading legal and societal impacts.
• 06:53 – 07:56: Broader ramifications for academia, insurance, and civic institutions.
• 07:56 – End: Wrap-up and expert warnings about the gravity of the potential designation.

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Conclusion

This episode of Consider This presents a concise yet urgent analysis of the Trump administration’s push to designate Antifa as a foreign terrorist organization—unpacking not only the legal and structural roadblocks, but more pressingly, the profound risks to civil liberties, digital discourse, and the boundaries of dissent in the U.S. The experts warn that the ripple effects could be “unbelievable”—fundamentally altering how the state, society, and platforms approach political opposition and protest.

Transcript

[Juana Summers]

Since he took office, Secretary of State Marco Rubio has made heavy use of three very powerful words foreign terrorist organization.

[Marco Rubio]

Today we have designated as terrorist organizations.

[Juana Summers]

He outlined some of the tools that this designation unlocks at a press conference in Ecuador last month, where he announced that he was adding two drug cartels to the list he's keeping.

[Marco Rubio]

One is Los Lobos and the other is Lo Choneros. We've designated them as foreign terrorist organizations and that brings with it all sorts.

[Juana Summers]

Of options for the big one finances.

[Marco Rubio]

It means that we can now, number one, go after the money, the properties, the banking system of anyone who's related to these groups.

[Juana Summers]

Another it opens up intelligence sharing with.

[Marco Rubio]

Foreign governments, which is very valuable when you're trying to wage war against these vicious animals, these terrorists.

[Juana Summers]

So far, Rubio has designated 19 new foreign terrorist organizations. Compare that to four during the entire Biden administration, and a lot of them have been drug cartels. This is a dramatic shift from how previous administrations used this designation. Unlike, say, Al Qaeda or Hamas, drug cartels are motivated by profit, not politics or ideology.

[Marco Rubio]

These are not narco traffickers. These are narco terrorists who terrorize the countries they operate in.

[Juana Summers]

Now President Trump is talking about using the foreign terrorist designation against a domestic movement. He's opened the door to using this powerful tool against antifa. Consider this a foreign terrorist organization designation for antifa could have massive consequences for freedom of speech in the U.S. from NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

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[Jason Blazakis]

Foreign.

[Juana Summers]

It's Consider this from npr. If this news creates A sense of deja vu. It's probably because President Trump already designated ANTIFA a domestic terrorist organization just last month. The thing is, there's no domestic terrorism statute in federal law, so the real world effect of that move is unclear. Designating ANTIFA a foreign terrorist organization is different. It comes with real legal teeth. It could have enormous repercussions across the country, and that's what the president is talking about doing now. NPR's Ryan Lucas has the story.

[Ryan Lucas]

Earlier this month, President Trump welcomed right wing influencers to the White House for a roundtable about antifa, the far left movement or ideology opposed to fascism. Some of the influencers gathered around the table urged the president to designate ANTIFA as a foreign terrorist organization.

[Donald Trump]

Would you like to see it done?

[Jason Blazakis]

Yes, Mr. President.

[Donald Trump]

Do you think it would help? They have foreign lands all across Western Europe. I think it's the kind of thing I'd like to do.

[Ryan Lucas]

If you'd like.

[Donald Trump]

Does everybody agree? If you agree, I agree. Let's get it done. Okay, let's get it done. Marco, we'll take care of it.

[Ryan Lucas]

The Marco Trump mentions there is Secretary of State Marco Rubio. Because it's the State Department that has the legal authority to designate foreign terrorist groups. Jason Blazakis led the office at State that is responsible for those decisions during the Obama and first Trump administrations.

[Jason Blazakis]

I do think it would be a highly dangerous step for the administration to pursue.

[Ryan Lucas]

Blizzaka says there are certain legal criteria to designate a group a foreign terrorist organization, including that it is indeed a cohesive organization. In the case of Antifa, Blizzeka says, it is not a functioning group like ISIS or Al Qaeda, which had clear leadership and a hierarchy. Instead, he and other experts say ANTIFA isn't an organization at all. It's more of a movement of disparately linked people who share an ideology, which is that fascism is. Is bad.

[Jason Blazakis]

I would really call on the State Department or the US Government to tell us who the leader of ANTIFA is and where they are based.

[Ryan Lucas]

The State Department also would have to demonstrate that ANTIFA is engaged in terrorism and that it is a foreign group, not inherently domestic.

[Jason Blazakis]

If there is a domestic nexus that represents a significant domestic presence of that group, you wouldn't be able to proceed with a designation.

[Ryan Lucas]

Still, Blizzecka says the Trump administration could make a creative argument, or as he puts it, stretch the truth in order to designate ANTIFA as a foreign terrorist organization. If it succeeds, the reverberations would be massive. Says Thomas Brzozowski, the Former counsel for domestic terrorism at the Justice Department.

[Jason Blazakis]

It would have a legal, immediate legal impact. Then it would have a cascading effect across civil society, including social media organizations, civic organizations, and everything in between.

[Ryan Lucas]

The most immediate impact would be the ability for federal prosecutors to bring the criminal charge of material support to a designated terrorist organization. Material support is broadly defined and can mean something as small as a $10 gift card or a bottle of water. That charge, which carries a penalty of up to 20 years in prison, could be brought against anyone associated with what the administration deems to be antifa. Again, Brzowski, when that foreign terrorist organization.

[Jason Blazakis]

Is so ill defined and nobody even knows what it is, and it potentially includes all activity that can be painted as left wing or whatever term you'd like to hang on it, that becomes potentially catastrophically dangerous for anybody, for everybody.

[Ryan Lucas]

That's just the criminal liability. Then there are what Brzozowski sees as the potential cascading effects. Social media companies, he says, could take steps to restrict any communication that could be seen as related to Antifa if it were to be designated a foreign terrorist group. The companies also could build mechanisms to report such activities on their platforms to the government.

[Jason Blazakis]

That really, in today's environment, obviously is going to dictate in many respects what the broader public sees and what they don't see.

[Ryan Lucas]

Universities, meanwhile, could cancel conferences that touch any topic that might conceivably relate to antifascism, he says, and faculty research could be curtailed. Then there are the insurance firms that insure universities, nonprofits, progressive think tanks and foundations.

[Jason Blazakis]

They're not going to insure these institutions if they touch anything they remotely concerned anti fascism. And think about how broad that is. What does it even mean? It sounds crazy, Kafkaesque, but that's what this designation would bring into play.

[Ryan Lucas]

All of these ripple effects, of course, depend on the Trump administration following through and designating ANTIFA a foreign terrorist organization. And in Brzozowski's view, there's good reason to believe they will.

[Jason Blazakis]

The president himself, during a roundtable at the White House, turned to his senior advisors, whose job it is to designate these entities, and instructed them to do it on tv. So, yeah, I think they might do it. People aren't ready for it. People are not ready for it. If that goes through, I'm telling you. Unbelievable.

[Ryan Lucas]

Ryan Lucas, NPR News, Washington.

[Juana Summers]

This episode was produced by Tyler Bartlam and Connor Donovan, with audio engineering by Josephine Neonai. It was edited by Justine Cannon and Krishnadev Kalamer. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's consider this from npr, I'm Juana Summers.

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