What happens if the Education Department is abolished?

Summary

Consider This from NPR: What Happens If the Education Department Is Abolished?

Released on February 21, 2025

In this episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Scott Detrow delves into the controversial proposal by the Trump administration to abolish the U.S. Department of Education. Through an in-depth discussion with former Education Secretaries John King and Margaret Spellings, the episode explores the potential ramifications of such a move on the American education system.

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1. Introduction: The Push to Abolish the Department of Education

The episode opens with Scott Detrow outlining President Trump's unusual mandate to eliminate the Department of Education. He introduces Linda McMahon, Trump's nominee for Secretary of Education, highlighting her statement during the confirmation hearing where she expressed intent to "send it back to the states" if confirmed (00:05).

Notable Quote:

Linda McMahon: "If confirmed as secretary, I will work with Congress to reorient the department toward helping educators, not controlling them." (00:33)

Detrow provides context on the Department's current role, emphasizing its oversight of programs that allocate significant federal funding to schools serving low-income families and students with disabilities. He notes the administration's actions, including cutting $600 million from teacher training programs and enforcing deadlines for schools to eliminate diversity initiatives (00:40).

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2. The Trump Administration's Actions and Their Impact

The discussion progresses to detail the Trump administration's efforts to dismantle the Department of Education, referencing Elon Musk's DOGE team's involvement in reducing the department's research division and accessing internal systems via a court order. Detrow raises critical questions about the feasibility and consequences of abolishing the department without Congressional approval.

Notable Quote:

Scott Detrow: "The Trump administration wants the Department of Education gone. But can they get rid of it? And if they do, how much money would actually be saved and which programs could be lost in the process?" (02:30)

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3. Expert Insights: Former Education Secretaries Weigh In

Detrow introduces two key guests: John King, former Education Secretary under President Obama, and Margaret Spellings, former Education Secretary under President George W. Bush. Their expertise provides a comprehensive view of the Department's essential functions and the potential fallout from its dissolution.

a. The Essential Role of the Department of Education

Margaret Spellings underscores the Department's foundational belief that education serves as a great equalizer, striving to level the playing field for students regardless of their socioeconomic status or location (03:27).

Notable Quote:

Margaret Spellings: "The Department of Education was founded because we have a shared American belief that education is a great equalizer." (03:27)

John King echoes this sentiment, highlighting critical funding programs like Title 1, IDA, and Pell Grants that support low-income students and those with disabilities, reinforcing the government's commitment to educational equity (03:53).

Notable Quote:

John King: "The funding that the department provides is crucial. There's the Title 1 program that helps schools serving low income students." (03:53)

b. Implications of Abolishing the Department

The discussion shifts to the practical implications of eliminating the Department. John King expresses concern over the loss of civil rights enforcement related to education, emphasizing the Department's role in protecting students from discrimination (04:45).

Notable Quote:

John King: "It's the place that is protecting the rights of students. That would not be easy for another agency to do." (04:45)

Margaret Spellings questions the efficiency and practicality of dispersing the Department's responsibilities across multiple agencies, raising doubts about whether this approach would address the existing issues in the education system (05:20).

Notable Quote:

Margaret Spellings: "Does that mean then that local school districts and universities and colleges are going to have to interface with a multitude of agencies?" (05:20)

c. Historical Context and Current Challenges

Spellings and King draw parallels between the current administration's proposals and longstanding Republican critiques of the Department. Spellings warns that the focus on dismantling the Department diverts attention from critical issues like student achievement and educational quality (06:13).

Notable Quote:

Margaret Spellings: "It's two former education secretaries, Margaret Spellings and John King. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us." (10:07)*

John King emphasizes that the debate over the Department's existence distracts from urgent educational challenges, such as declining reading and math proficiency among students, particularly exacerbated by the COVID-19 pandemic (08:29).

Notable Quote:

John King: "We're just debating whether or not the department should exist." (09:14)

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4. The Broader State of Education: Challenges and Urgent Needs

The conversation transitions to the current state of American education, highlighting alarming data on student performance post-COVID. Both former secretaries express concern over the widening gaps in educational outcomes, especially for low-income and special needs students.

Notable Quote:

Margaret Spellings: "Our absenteeism across this country is just shocking and abhorrent." (09:24)

John King stresses the need for immediate action to improve educational outcomes, advocating for a national dialogue focused on enhancing reading and math proficiency and increasing high school graduation rates (08:14).

Notable Quote:

John King: "We should have our hair on fire about that. And we should be looking to national leaders to talk about what we do next to improve reading and math and high school graduation." (08:14)

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5. Concluding Insights: The Future of the Department and Education in the U.S.

In wrapping up, Detrow summarizes the critical viewpoints shared by King and Spellings, emphasizing the Department of Education's pivotal role in maintaining educational equity, enforcing civil rights, and ensuring the efficient allocation of federal funding. The episode leaves listeners contemplating the profound impact of potentially abolishing the Department and underscores the urgency of addressing the nation's educational challenges beyond administrative restructuring.

Notable Quote:

Scott Detrow: "It's two former education secretaries, Margaret Spellings and John King. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us." (10:07)

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Conclusion

This episode of "Consider This" provides a comprehensive examination of the Trump administration's proposal to abolish the Department of Education, juxtaposed with expert opinions that advocate for the Department's continued existence. By highlighting the Department's indispensable functions and the potential risks of its dissolution, the episode offers listeners a nuanced understanding of a pivotal issue facing American education.

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Produced by: Jordan Marie Smith and Alaina Burnett
Edited by: Courtney Dorning
Executive Producer: Sammy Yenigun

Support NPR and get your news sponsor-free with Consider This+. Learn more at plus.npr.org/considerthis.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

President Trump has given Linda McMahon his pick to lead the Education Department, an unusual mandate.

[Linda McMahon]

I said to Linda, I said, linda, I'm making you the Secretary of Education, but if you do a great job, you will put yourself out of a job because you're going to be sending it back to the states. And she's fantastic.

[Scott Detrow]

McMahon is the former CEO of WWE, then served as administrator of the Small Business Administration during President Trump's first term. During her confirmation hearing, she decried what she called a public education in decline.

[Linda McMahon]

If confirmed as secretary, I will work with Congress to reorient the department toward helping educators, not controlling them.

[Scott Detrow]

In fact, the Education Department does not specifically determine what gets taught in the classroom. What it does do is oversee programs that send billions of dollars to schools that serve low income families and help educate kids with disabilities. This money has been one of the top concerns for lawmakers and educators as Trump talks about closing the department. McMahon tried to address this during her hearing in an exchange with Republican Senator Bill Cassidy.

[Linda McMahon]

I believe, as he does, that the best education is closest to the child and not certainly if the department is.

[John King]

Downsized, would the states and localities still.

[Margaret Spellings]

Receive the federal funding which they currently yes.

[Linda McMahon]

It is not the president's goal to defund the programs. It is only to have it operate more efficiently.

[Scott Detrow]

Unwinding the department in the name of efficiency has already begun. Elon Musk's DOGE team eviscerated the department's research division and has been allowed access by a judge to internal department systems. The department cut $600 million in funding for teacher training on what the administration framed as inappropriate and unnecessary topics, including critical race theory. The administration has given schools and universities until February 28 to eliminate diversity initiatives or risk losing federal money. And many newer department staffers have received termination letters while dozens of department staff were placed on administrative lead with little explanation. But it would take an act of Congress to fully eliminate the department. Consider this. The Trump administration wants the Department of Education gone. But can they get rid of it? And if they do, how much money would actually be saved and which programs could be lost in the process? From npr, I'm Scott Detrow. This message comes from Carvana. Sell your car the convenient way, enter your license plate or vin, answer a few questions and get a real offer in seconds. Go to Carvana.com today it's Consider this from NPR. The Department of Education is a big con job. That is just one of the things President Trump has said about one of the most high profile departments in the federal government. Trump says he Wants to save money and kill policies he doesn't like. Trump and Elon Musk's doge have already started cutting funding. So what does this mean for education in the United States? That's one of the questions we will put to two former Education secretaries. John King ran the department during Barack Obama's second term, and Margaret Spellings was Education Secretary in the George W. Bush administration. They both join me now to talk about what all of this could mean. Welcome to the show.

[John King]

Thanks so much.

[Margaret Spellings]

Thank you.

[Scott Detrow]

Let me start here. I would love each of you to tell me what you think the most important role the Department of Education plays. Margaret, I'll start with you.

[Margaret Spellings]

The Department of Education was founded because we have a shared American belief that education is a great equalizer. And too often kids, their futures were determined by their zip code or a lack of resources. And so we thought, and I think most still do think, that it's a national imperative that we level that playing field and through various programs and K12 and in higher ed, work to provide opportunity for all students.

[John King]

I would agree with Margaret. I'd say the funding that the department provides is crucial. There's the Title 1 program that helps schools serving low income students. There's IDA funding, which is the funding for services for students with disabilities. There's the Pell Grant program that makes higher education accessible for low income students. And that's the way the government acts on the belief in the role of education that Margaret described.

[Scott Detrow]

You know, there's a lot we don't know yet, but the thing that the Trump people are talking about is they want to keep a lot of that critical funding, but perhaps get rid of the department itself or massively cut down the department or shift these funding programs to some other department. I'm curious and John, I'll start with you. How would that change thing if again, the bulk of this money remains, but the apparatus administering it is gone? How much does that worry you?

[John King]

Well, remember that the department also plays a critical civil rights enforcement role. It's the place where you go if you're experiencing discrimination, whether it's based on race or gender. It's the place that is protecting the rights of students. That would not be easy for another agency to do. And you want the leadership of the department to focus a national conversation on the urgency of, of good educational outcomes in K12 and in higher education.

[Scott Detrow]

Margaret Spelling's Department of Education money, but no Department of Education. Is that a doable thing in your mind?

[Margaret Spellings]

Well, I guess it's theoretically doable. I guess things it makes me want to ask questions like does that mean then that local school districts and universities and colleges are going to have to interface with a multitude of agencies, whether it's HHS or the Homeland Security or the Department of Justice or the Department of the Treasury? And on and on and on, wonder is that a more efficient way to run things than currently? What is the problem we're trying to solve? And to the extent that people are frustrated with the lack of student achievement that we've seen, particularly post Covid and what folks perceive as indoctrination or a woke agenda coming from school districts, then they should take those issues to their local school boards and to their state legislatures because there are expressions, prohibitions against that from the federal department.

[Scott Detrow]

I want to talk about some of those things and I really want to talk about just the broader state of education. But Margaret Spelling's quick question to you. For a long time, Republicans have criticized the reach, the size of the Department of Education. How different to you is this particular moment what the Trump administration is calling for from what we've seen for decades?

[Margaret Spellings]

Well, you're right. I mean, it's been sort of standard Republican orthodoxy, except for my former boss, George W. Bush. And is it right for us to calibrate the right role between the feds, the states and the locals? You bet. And we've been doing that over the many decades, from very minuscule to more muscular, as we've had in the time, with more accountability and more attention around student achievement. That's the other thing that I worry about getting lost on the cutting room floor is transparency around the quality of education for all kids and the accountability muscle that we have through the National Education Report Card and requirements for assessment and reading and math in a disaggregated way.

[Scott Detrow]

John King, I want to ask you about another big part of this. We're seeing these executive orders ordering schools to get rid of dei. What are you most worried about when it comes to these ideological orders coming out of the Trump administration and how it affects education in local school districts?

[John King]

Well, you worry about confusion. It's very hard to understand what exactly is meant by the phrase DEI when it's used by the current administration. And you see schools doing things that are deeply troubling, removing books from the library about subjects like slavery or the civil rights movement, taking down a poster of Harriet Tubman. You see schools questioning whether or not they can continue to teach African American history. That is deeply worrisome. We are better off if we are teaching students the whole truth about our history and engaging with the hard parts of our history as well as the wonderful parts.

[Scott Detrow]

Another thing I want to put to both of you and John, I'll start with you. We just got those high level data back showing that so many students across the country still struggling with basics like reading and math post Covid, is there an argument that the current system just isn't working?

[John King]

Look, we need to do a lot better. And my fear is that this debate about the future of the department is actually distracting from the national conversation we should be having about how we urgently improve outcomes. You know, the NAEP results, the national assessment results showed that a third of eighth graders are below basic in reading. That means those students are on a path that will lead to not graduating from high school, not being able to get a decent job. We should have our hair on fire about that. And we should be looking to national leaders to talk about what we do next to improve reading and math and high school graduation. Instead, we're just debating whether or not the department should exist.

[Scott Detrow]

Margaret Spellings, same question to you. Given how frustrated so many people are across the country with where things are right now, does this help or hurt?

[Margaret Spellings]

I believe it hurts. And you know, John just mentioned the data. That data is particularly troubling for low income and special needs students who really have not recovered at all from COVID Our absenteeism across this country is just shocking and abhorrent. And so, you know, we're taking our eye off the ball when we talk about kind of the administrative niceties of programs, programs that are pretty direct to school districts and to states and frankly, you know, our block grants that work pretty efficiently while, you know, Rome is burning. And we we ought to be talking about the the future workforce of our country.

[Scott Detrow]

It's two former education secretaries, Margaret Spellings and John King. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.

[John King]

Thanks. Thanks.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Jordan Marie Smith and Alaina Burnett and was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. Thanks to our CONSIDER THIS plus listeners who support the work of NPR journalists and help keep public radio strong. Supporters also hear every episode without messages from sponsors. You can Learn more at plus.NPR.org It's Consider this from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.