What happens when wildland fire reaches the city?

Summary

Consider This from NPR: What Happens When Wildland Fire Reaches the City? Release Date: January 13, 2025

Introduction In this gripping episode of NPR's Consider This, host Mary Louise Kelly delves into the unprecedented wildfires that recently ravaged Los Angeles, exploring their impact on both the environment and the urban landscape. Through firsthand accounts and expert analysis, the episode examines the evolving nature of wildfires and the profound challenges they pose to city infrastructures and residents.

Personal Stories of Devastation

Herb Wilson's Loss ([00:01] – [01:03])

Mary Louise Kelly opens with the poignant story of Herb Wilson from Altadena, whose vacation was abruptly ended by the catastrophic fires. Wilson recounts his harrowing return home only to find his house "burnt to the ground" ([00:16]). As one of approximately 12,000 structures damaged or destroyed, Wilson describes the neighborhood's transformation: “We're just looking down the block at all the devastation and all the houses on the block are gone, with the exception of one” ([00:35]). He reflects on his two decades in Altadena, emphasizing the community's once-quiet nature and the deep sense of loss felt by its residents.

Jamie Woolner's Encounter ([02:00] – [03:24])

Jamie Woolner, a co-owner of Pizza of Venice in Altadena, shares his terrifying experience as the fire encroached upon his restaurant. Initially skeptical of the evacuation warnings, Woolner was blindsided by the intensity of the flames: “When I woke up, I walked out into an absolute apocalypse” ([02:10]). He describes the surreal scene where structures around him were ablaze while vegetation remained untouched, highlighting the unique nature of urban conflagrations. Despite his prior experience fighting fires during the Woolsey Fire, Woolner realized the scale of this disaster was beyond his ability to control, leading him to evacuate for his safety ([03:08]).

Expert Insights on Urban Wildfires

Michelle Steinberg on Firefighting Challenges ([01:23] – [02:00])

Michelle Steinberg from the National Fire Protection Association provides a sobering analysis of the current wildfire situation in California. She explains that despite having some of the best-trained firefighters globally, the sheer number and rapid spread of these fires overwhelm available resources: “There simply are not enough people and resources to attack all these fires simultaneously” ([01:42]). Steinberg emphasizes the relentless speed at which these fires move, exacerbated by high winds, making containment increasingly difficult.

Stephen Pine on Urban Conflagrations ([04:22] – [09:54])

Stephen Pine, a fire historian and emeritus professor at Arizona State University, offers a deep dive into the mechanics of urban fires. Distinguishing between wildland fires and urban conflagrations, Pine describes the latter as “structure to structure fire spread conflagrations” ([04:40]). He explains that once houses ignite—often via embers—the intensity can rapidly escalate, transforming into urban disasters where the energy from burning structures perpetuates the fire beyond natural vegetation barriers ([05:02]).

Pine also reflects on the historical context, noting that major urban fires have been largely controlled since the early 20th century through improved building and fire codes. However, the resurgence of such conflagrations signals a return to older, unresolved challenges: “We solved this problem. We understood what it took to prevent cities from burning. … And now it's coming back” ([06:58]).

Challenges in Preparation and Rebuilding

Preparation Strategies and Limitations ([06:06] – [07:38])

When discussing preparations for urban wildfires, Pine suggests that while cities like Los Angeles have infrastructure such as fire hydrants that could aid in firefighting, the existing building stock lacks necessary fire-resistant features due to decades of construction without wildfire considerations. He warns that retrofitting buildings to withstand ember storms is a monumental task: “We've got decades, if not a century of building without this kind of problem in mind” ([07:05]). Pine underscores the need for a comprehensive approach to landscape management, urging for reconstruction strategies that mitigate fire risks rather than merely restoring the status quo.

Governor Gavin Newsom's Approach ([07:38] – [07:47])

Addressing the immediate aftermath, California Governor Gavin Newsom emphasizes a focus on facilitating rapid rebuilding for affected residents: “We are going to try to make it as easy as possible for people to rebuild” ([07:38]). While this approach prioritizes community resilience and social stability, Pine critiques it for potentially perpetuating the same vulnerabilities by reconstructing without integrating enhanced fire-resistant measures.

Long-Term Perspectives and Hope for the Future ([09:00] – [09:54])

In contemplating the long-term implications, Stephen Pine draws parallels between wildfire management and public health strategies, likening fire control to a contagion that requires collective action: “You wear masks to prevent aerial transmission... it’s like hardening houses against embers” ([08:13]). He articulates a vision where urban planning and community cooperation are crucial to mitigating future fire risks.

Pine expresses cautious optimism, acknowledging humanity’s historical relationship with fire while recognizing the significant changes needed to prevent wildfires from becoming urban emergencies once again: “I've got grandkids and I want a future for them. But I have to say the record has not been all that hopeful” ([09:10]). His insights underscore the urgency of rethinking urban development and fire management to secure a safer future.

Conclusion

Mary Louise Kelly wraps up the episode by highlighting the transformative impact of the recent wildfires on Los Angeles, suggesting that these events may catalyze significant changes in urban preparedness and resident lifestyles. The episode serves as a compelling exploration of the intersection between natural disasters and urban resilience, urging listeners to consider the intricate balance between community infrastructure and environmental challenges.

Production Credits Produced by Conor Donovan, additional reporting by Lauren Sommer, edited by Courtney Dorning, and executive produced by Sammy Yenigun.

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This summary captures the essence of NPR's "Consider This" episode on the intersection of wildland fires and urban areas, providing detailed insights from personal experiences and expert analysis to paint a comprehensive picture of the challenges and potential pathways forward.

Transcript

[Mary Louise Kelly]

When they got news of the fires in Los Angeles last week, Herb Wilson and his wife cut their vacation short, booked an early flight home. Except home wasn't there anymore.

[Stephen Pine]

Can you tell me about what you.

[Beth LaBerge]

Found at your house when you came back?

[Herb Wilson]

Well, when we got back, the house was down. I mean, it's pretty much burnt to the ground.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Herb Wilson lives in Altadena. That is where KQED's Beth LaBerge met up with him. She's the other voice you heard there. Wilson's house was one of an estimated 12,000 structures damaged or destroyed in the fires.

[Herb Wilson]

We're just looking down the block at all the devastation and all the houses on the block are gone, with the exception of one.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Altadena is in the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains, northeast of downtown. It's a suburb and it feels like one.

[Herb Wilson]

I've been here 20 years and I love it here. I mean, I love the people. It's a quiet neighborhood. If you want to get excitement or something, you just have to drive five, six miles away. But up here, this is a family neighborhood.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

In those 20 years that Wilson has lived in Altadena, wildfires in California have changed. They are bigger, more destructive, a year round threat and like we've seen over the past week, sometimes several strike simultaneously. Firefighters couldn't save every neighborhood. Wilson said, that's been hard to accept.

[Herb Wilson]

So that's some of the disappointment and anger with my wife because she thinks they just let it go. And I told her, you know, you got a city burning and sometimes they have to make decisions and they can only do so much.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Michelle Steinberg at the National Fire Protection association says these fires are just too fast.

[Michelle Steinberg]

California has some of the largest numbers and best trained firefighters probably in the world. Even with that, there simply are not enough people and resources to attack all these fires simultaneously and to deal with the fact that the wind is pushing them that fast. That is the reality.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And the fires aren't just moving fast, they are moving far. Jamie Woolner lives in a part of Altadena near its border with Pasadena, far enough from the wildlands at the French.

[Jamie Woolner]

He thought, I never imagined that the fire would get all the way over there. So even as I'm sleeping and I'm listening to the evacuation loudspeaker blaring, I'm like, ah, they're being overly, overly cautious here. But I was dead wrong. When I woke up, I walked out into an absolute apocalypse.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He's talking here with member station KCRW in Los Angeles.

[Jamie Woolner]

I mean, everything was on fire around me. I'm lucky that I didn't just burn up alive.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Wohlner co owns a restaurant in Altadena Pizza of Venice. He said he drove up to see if it was still standing.

[Jamie Woolner]

It was kind of a horrific sight. The Masonic Lodge across the street was totally on fire. All the homes behind the restaurant were totally on fire and the restaurant was just starting to catch.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He thought about using a hose, trying to fight the fire, but this fire was just too powerful.

[Jamie Woolner]

I helped put out a fire next to my grandparents house during the Woolsey fire, and the level of danger here just seemed orders of magnitude higher, like I just, I knew I couldn't do anything about it, so I just had to leave.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Consider this wildfire carved into greater Los Angeles last week in a way no one has seen before. That may force changes to how the city prepares and to how its residents live. From npr, MARY I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

[Beth LaBerge]

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[Ron Rutson]

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[Beth LaBerge]

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

It'S consider this from NPR. Wildfire is the word we tend to use when we talk about what Los Angeles has been dealing with the past week. But Lori Moore Merrill, the US Fire administrator for the Federal Emergency Management Agency, fema, she used a different word when she spoke to NPR this morning.

[Michelle Steinberg]

These are conflagrations. These are not wildland fires with trees burning.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

These are structure to structure fire spread conflagrations. While they may have started at the suburban fringe, they did not stay there. Stephen Pine is a fire historian and an emeritus professor at Arizona State University. I asked him how a wildland fire differs from an urban fire.

[Stephen Pine]

Basically, what we're seeing is you begin getting houses ignited. Most of the houses on the fringes will ignite by embers. And if there are high winds, if it's the middle of the night, if there are too many, it can quickly overwhelm the capabilities to suppress those fires. And then you get a transition into an urban conflagration. It's eerie to look at many of the photos and see how much of the vegetation survived and the houses are vaporized.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You're talking about some of the photos we've seen where the house is just a smoking ruin, but there's a perfectly green bush sitting beside it, right next to it.

[Stephen Pine]

So these are not being propagated by the vegetation. Yeah. But it is essentially the energy released by the combustible house that is carrying the fire to the next one. So, you know, everything in a city we build so we can in principle control all of that.

[Beth LaBerge]

Yeah.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

There would seem to be some advantages to trying to control a fire in the city. The urban infrastructure, there are fire hydrants.

[Stephen Pine]

It's curious because during the settlement period, the U.S. our cities, our major cities burned about as often as the surrounding countryside because they were made of the same materials. There were lots of ignitions around. Open fire was used everywhere. But we broke that cycle in the early 20th century, I think San Francisco, 1906, after the earthquake. And then we really didn't have urban conflagrations until across the Bay in 1991 when Oakland burned. And that sort of inaugurated the new era. And I look at it, it's like watching polio return. I mean, we solved this problem. We understood what it took to prevent cities from burning. Building codes, fire codes, material standards, all of those things. And now it's coming back.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So let's apply all this to a city like, for example, L.A. what should we do to prepare?

[Stephen Pine]

You can certainly harden houses against the kind of ember storms. I think the issue is going to be, we've got decades, if not a century of building without this kind of problem in mind. And we're not going to be able to retrofit all of it immediately. And so I think the big question is, how do you rebuild? And the instinct is always to build back as quickly as possible, probably as much like it was as possible. So people don't feel as dislocated. But if you do that, then you're just recreating the same problem.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That's fascinating. We've just heard from California Governor Gavin Newsom, weighing in along those lines, saying we are going to try to make it as easy as possible for people to rebuild.

[Stephen Pine]

Well, of course, I mean, what's he going to say? But if you really are interested in solving the longer term problem, the way you control fire is by controlling the landscape. And that doesn't mean you nuke it, it doesn't mean you clear cut it. It doesn't mean you pave it. It means you organize that landscape in ways that allow you to survive fires.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So if you were rebuilding la, how would you do that?

[Stephen Pine]

Well, I can give you suggestions how I would do it. And I can guarantee that nobody's going to accept them. You're talking about a lot of people and you're telling them they're going to have to change where and how they live. And in some ways, you can model fire as a contagion. So how would you deal, say, with COVID or the flu? Well, you wear masks to prevent aerial transmission. That's like hardening houses against embers. And then you clear your vegetation around the house a short amount. Well, that's social distancing. And then you have to get the whole group to do it. Otherwise your neighbor's house is going to irradiate yours, even if you've done all the work. So this is suddenly it's looking very complicated.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You're heading me toward a final question, which is the long view on this. I know you've thought about fire for a long time. You were a wildland firefighter yourself back in the 60s and 70s, right?

[Stephen Pine]

Yep. Well, fire is not just a chemical process. It's also a relationship. You know, fire has been our constant companion as a species. So in that sense, I'm optimistic. But right now, we've made our best friend our worst enemy. And that is going to require a lot of change in thinking and understanding. And I want to believe we can do it. I've got grandkids and I want a future for them. But I have to say the record has not been all that hopeful.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Fire historian Steve Pine is emeritus professor at Arizona State University. Thank you.

[Stephen Pine]

Well, thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

This episode was produced by Conor Donovan, additional reporting by Lauren Sommer. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's CONSIDER THIS from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

[Beth LaBerge]

Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this [e-mail] that's plus.NPR.org.