What makes a true Christmas movie?

Summary

Consider This from NPR – Episode: What Makes a True Christmas Movie?

Release Date: December 25, 2024

In this festive episode of NPR's "Consider This," host Scott Detrow delves into a perennial debate that has captured pop culture’s attention: What truly defines a Christmas movie? Featuring insightful contributions from NPR producer and guest Mark Rivers, the discussion explores the nuances that separate quintessential holiday films from those that merely bask in seasonal settings.

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The Die Hard Debate

The episode kicks off by addressing the controversial classification of the 1988 action film Die Hard as a Christmas movie. Host Scott Detrow introduces the topic by highlighting Die Hard’s setting during a Christmas party and its enduring debate among fans and critics alike.

Scott Detrow [00:00]:
"Die Hard does take place at a Christmas party. Is that fact enough to make it a Christmas movie?"

Mark Rivers enters the fray with strong opinions, asserting that Die Hard does not fit the traditional mold of a Christmas film.

Mark Rivers [00:36]:
"No, it's rubbish."

Despite differing views, both hosts acknowledge the widespread discourse surrounding the film’s holiday credentials, referencing appearances by figures like Bruce Willis and high-profile debates on platforms like CNN and the Rich Eisen Show.

Scott Detrow [00:37]:
"Bruce Willis himself tried to settle this question at one point at his roast on Comedy Central."

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Defining a Christmas Movie: The Three-Tier System

To break down the complexities of categorizing Christmas movies, producer Mark Rivers introduces an innovative three-tier classification system designed to objectively evaluate what makes a film embody the spirit of the holidays.

Mark Rivers [03:48]:
"Ultimately, a holiday movie can be anything you want it to be."

Tier One: Central to Christmas

The first tier comprises films where Christmas is integral to the storyline—so much so that removing it would fundamentally alter the film's essence. Classic examples include A Christmas Story, How the Grinch Stole Christmas, Miracle on 34th Street, and Elf.

Mark Rivers [04:48]:
"If there are actual residents of the North Pole in your movie, that's in the first tier of Christmas movies."

These movies not only incorporate Christmas in their titles but also embed holiday themes deeply within their narratives, making the season indispensable to their identity.

Tier Two: Christmas-Influenced Plot

Moving to the second tier, Rivers explains that Christmas elements instigate or influence the plot but aren't essential for the story’s progression. Films like Home Alone and Die Hard fall into this category.

Mark Rivers [05:00]:
"Home Alone's a really good example of that."

While Home Alone revolves around a family’s Christmas vacation and the protagonist’s home isolation during the holidays, the central conflict—Kevin defending his home from burglars—could feasibly occur outside the Christmas season. Similarly, Die Hard uses the Christmas party as a backdrop, but the core action-driven plot remains intact without the holiday setting.

Mark Rivers [06:52]:
"I call Die Hard a tier two Christmas movie. It could be almost any work party that John McClane gets invited to and he gets trapped aside and has to fight."

This tier acknowledges that while Christmas adds flavor and context, the primary narrative could seamlessly transition to another time of year.

Tier Three: Christmas as Atmosphere

The third and final tier encompasses films where Christmas serves merely as an atmospheric backdrop, enhancing the setting without directly influencing the plot. Examples include Eyes Wide Shut and The Apartment.

Mark Rivers [07:03]:
"Tier three is where Christmas is more ornament, it's just atmosphere."

This tier reflects the reality for many viewers who experience Christmas as part of their lives without it being the focal point of storytelling. It resonates with the everyday experience of balancing holiday festivities with regular routines.

Mark Rivers [07:53]:
"I think the third tier is the most relatable tier, I think, for the average person, because that's where we live, where Christmas is often in the background."

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Personal Favorites and Seasonal Traditions

Mark Rivers shares his personal preferences within the three-tier system, highlighting films he consistently watches every December.

Mark Rivers [08:16]:
"One of the keys to [Elf] is that only the Elf character played by Will Ferrell actually realizes he's in a Christmas movie. The rest of the cast is more like we are, where they're just trying to make it through the day, make it through work."

He emphasizes how Elf fits neatly into the first tier by centralizing Christmas in its narrative, enhancing its relatability and heartfelt sentiment.

Reflecting on more personal favorites, Rivers mentions The Apartment as a comforting seasonal watch, appreciating its cozy setting despite its complex undertones.

Mark Rivers [08:38]:
"It's one of those movies that I always turn to for comfort around the holiday season."

Scott Detrow adds his own observation, drawing parallels between Elf and other fantastical films like Lord of the Rings, suggesting that the magical elements often associated with Christmas movies contribute to their enduring appeal.

Scott Detrow [09:03]:
"The kind of annoying Central Park Rangers plotline of Elf is just a Lord of the Rings reference of the Nazgul, because those movies came out around the time."

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Nostalgia and Intergenerational Watching

The conversation touches upon the role of nostalgia in defining beloved Christmas movies. Rivers points out that many such films are passed down through generations, becoming a shared cultural touchstone that reinforces familial bonds during the holiday season.

Mark Rivers [10:29]:
"It's a movie that you pass down to your kids, right? Your niece and nephew, for sure."

This intergenerational viewing fosters a sense of continuity and shared tradition, further cementing these films' statuses as quintessential Christmas movies.

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Conclusion: Embracing the Complexity of Christmas Films

By the episode’s end, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of what differentiates a true Christmas movie from one that merely sports seasonal aesthetics. Mark Rivers’ three-tier system offers a structured yet flexible framework that accommodates a wide range of films, recognizing both traditional and unconventional holiday narratives.

Scott Detrow [07:57]:
"Mark, thanks as always."

Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, "Consider This" not only addresses the Die Hard debate but also enriches listeners' appreciation for the diverse ways Christmas can be portrayed in cinema.

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Produced by Gabriel Sanchez and Mark Rivers
Edited by Adam Raney and Conor Donovan
Executive Producer: Sam Mi Yenigun

This episode was part of NPR's effort to explore and categorize the essence of holiday storytelling, providing listeners with both entertainment and a deeper critical framework for understanding beloved Christmas classics.

Transcript

[Scott Detrow]

The 1988 movie Die Hard deserves a lot of accolades. It's a genre defining classic. It cemented Bruce Willis superstar status. But the studio opted for a more controversial tagline in the trailer for the.

[Mark Rivers]

4K Blu Ray release, the Greatest Christmas Story Ever Told.

[Scott Detrow]

Die Hard does take place at a Christmas party.

[Mark Rivers]

Now I have a machine gun. Ho ho.

[Scott Detrow]

Is that fact enough to make it a Christmas movie? Though this, of course, has become a perennial pop culture question. Is Die Hard a Christmas film?

[Mark Rivers]

No, it's rubbish.

[Scott Detrow]

I didn't feel Christmassy when I saw it. Yes, Die Hard is a Christmas film. This is something that has popped up not only online but on news programs. Is Die Hard really a Christmas movie? Last year, CNN's Jake Tapper brought in an expert to have the debate. And joining me now is Jeremy Arnold. He is the author of Turner Classic Movies, Christmas in the Movies. Jeremy, thank you. Even big name actors have gotten in on this discourse, like Edward Norton on the Rich Eisen Show.

[Mark Rivers]

Do you consider Die Hard a Christmas movie? Emphatically, yes.

[Scott Detrow]

Thank you, Edward.

[Mark Rivers]

Oh my gosh. Okay. I do not.

[Scott Detrow]

Or Ethan Hawke with Stephen Colbert. Is Die Hard a Christmas movie?

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah, if that's legal.

[Scott Detrow]

Bruce Willis himself tried to settle this question at one point at his roast on Comedy Central.

[Mark Rivers]

Die Hard is not a Christmas movie.

[Scott Detrow]

It's a goddamn Bruce Willis movie. If only it were so simple. BRUCE this debate over Die Hard points to a broader fundamental question. Just what makes any Christmas movie a Christmas movie like Elf or Eyes Wide Shut or It's a Wonderful Life?

[Mark Rivers]

Merry Christmas.

[Scott Detrow]

Merry Christmas, George.

[Mark Rivers]

Merry Christmas, George.

[Scott Detrow]

Consider this. One of our producers has developed an objective, you might even say scientific classification system that tries to answer this question, and it leads to some surprising and in my case, kind of upsetting places. We will have more after the break. From npr, I'm Scott Detrow.

[Mark Rivers]

This message comes from NPR sponsor the Capital One Venture X card. Earn unlimited 2x miles on everything you buy, plus get access to a $300 annual credit for bookings through Capital One Travel. What's in your wallet? Terms apply [e-mail] all this year, NPR traveled the country hearing from voters not just about the issues, but about their hopes for the country's future.

[Scott Detrow]

We should be able to disagree with.

[Mark Rivers]

Each other, bullying each other into submission and what it means to be a part of a democracy. Invest in coverage that moves us forward together by giving [e-mail] hi, I'm Ramtin Arablouei from Throughline. Electricity, Internet, cell service, all the things we rely on every day can be unreliable or inaccessible in an emergency, but through any storm or crisis, radio is a lifeline. Support the resource that's here for you no matter what. Give [e-mail].

[Scott Detrow]

It'S consider this from NPR. Okay, so as promised, we are going to try to tackle this. What makes a movie a Christmas movie? Our producer, Mark Rivers is here to settle it once and for all. Or in the spirit of movie discussions, not really settle anything and just lead to more arguments. Hi, Mark.

[Mark Rivers]

Hey, Scott. Good to be with you.

[Scott Detrow]

I mean, it feels like what makes a holiday movie is an obvious question to many, but it is not to you. What makes a holiday movie?

[Mark Rivers]

Well, you know, I should say that first of all, I think ultimately a holiday movie can be anything you want it to be.

[Scott Detrow]

Anything. So like Ninja Turtles 2, Secret of the Ooze holiday movie, if you watch.

[Mark Rivers]

It around Christmas time with your family and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside, that's your Christmas movie. So people watch wizard of Oz around the holiday season. I've heard from my friends who watch Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter around the holiday season. I think a Christmas movie can be whatever makes you feel cozy in the wintertime, but anything that makes you feel nostalgic for when you first watch it as a kid, that can be a Christmas movie.

[Scott Detrow]

But I feel like there's a turn coming here.

[Mark Rivers]

But. So here is the turn. Having said that, a Christmas movie, I think you can break it down into three tiers. I think. So there's the first tier, which is Christmas is the subject of the movie, where if you took it out, there'd be no movie. And you probably, you kind of know this when you see it. Oftentimes, the work Christmas might be in the movie title itself. A Christmas Story, how the Grinch Stole Christmas, Miracle on 34th Street. Right. Or Elf.

[Scott Detrow]

I just rewatched the remake of that a few days ago. Holds up.

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah. So I think if there are actual residents of the North Pole in your movie, that's in the first tier of Christmas movies. Now we have this second tier, things get a little more interesting where Christmas might instigate the plot, it might be a part of the plot, but if you took it out, changed a little bit of dialogue, you could still have, it would still make sense.

[Scott Detrow]

So I feel like Home Alone might be a good example of that.

[Mark Rivers]

I think Home Alone's a really good example of that, you know. So, yes, sure, Kevin gets left behind for the Christmas season, but it could have been A summer vacation. And the movie could still play out the way it does.

[Scott Detrow]

Right? And he sets up the Christmas tree. But we don't actually really need that. We just need to get to the point where the robbers try to get into the house.

[Mark Rivers]

We just need him stuck in the house. We need the robbers to get in and we need him to do his sadistic traps to abuse these two for the rest of the movie.

[Scott Detrow]

Okay, I like this idea. What's another example? We talked about Home Alone. What's another example?

[Mark Rivers]

So, you know, so listeners, I don't want to upset any of you guys, but I think second tier movie is probably. It's the Wonderful Life.

[Scott Detrow]

What?

[Mark Rivers]

Yeah, I know, I know. Greatest Christmas movie of all time. I've heard it all.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah, I wildly disagree. But let me hear you out.

[Mark Rivers]

If you take out the fact that the movie leads up to Christmas Eve or that by the very end of it, he's yelling through the, you know, yelling through the town. Merry Christmas.

[Scott Detrow]

So if you take out the heart.

[Mark Rivers]

Of the movie, you don't need any of that, you know. You know, this movie could have taken place on his birthday. You know, people feel depressed and think about, you know, they take stock of their lives. They don't need Christmas to do that. They could do it on their birthday, they could do it around, they could do it on New Year's. Christmas adds the. But you take it out. He's still depressed. He can still talk to the angels without the holiday season.

[Scott Detrow]

But the whole community coming together and singing Christmas songs with one another and sharing the Christmas spirit and yelling merry Christmas.

[Mark Rivers]

Maybe they're coming together on Groundhog Day like they do in the Bill Murray movie.

[Scott Detrow]

I love Groundhog Day as a holiday and a movie, but I think I'm with you in everything else you said this segment.

[Mark Rivers]

Like I said, it's still a Christmas movie. It's just second tier Christmas, not the top. No one in It's a Wonderful Life lives at the North Pole, has ever lived at the North Pole.

[Scott Detrow]

Let's disagree and move on.

[Mark Rivers]

Fair enough.

[Scott Detrow]

Now, another perennial topic. What about 1988 film Die Hard? Does it also fit into this second tier that we are talking about?

[Mark Rivers]

I call it a tier two Christmas movie. It could be almost any work party that John McClane gets invited to and he gets trapped aside and has to fight.

[Scott Detrow]

As happens at a work party.

[Mark Rivers]

As often happens at a work party.

[Scott Detrow]

Okay, so what about tier three?

[Mark Rivers]

So tier three, I think, is my favorite tier. And this is where Christmas is more Christmas is in the background. It's ornamental where it has no influence on the plot going forward, but it's just. It's atmosphere. So this is something that applies to a movie like Eyes Wide Shut, you know, the Stanley Kubrick film, or the Apartment, the classic Billy Wilder film. And I like. I like this tier best of all, I think, because this is the kind of tier that we all live in. You know, we're not all Ebenezer Scrooge or Buddy of the Elf. You know, we might buy presents, and we're looking forward to the Christmas season, but for the rest of the time, we're going to work every day. We're putting food on the table. We're grocery shopping.

[Scott Detrow]

We're gonna say, buddy the Elf goes.

[Mark Rivers]

To work, but he works at the North Pole. And the rest of us don't really work at the North Pole. We have other jobs. So I think the third tier is the most relatable tier, I think, for the average person, because that's where we live, where Christmas is often in the background.

[Scott Detrow]

All right, I will say I had never truly thought of it that way before, and you're convincing me.

[Mark Rivers]

I mean, I think it's a way to kind of bring all the movies together. Because this whole debate around is Die hard Christmas movie. Is it not like. Yes, it's just not in that top tier. You know, it's Not Miracle on 34th Street.

[Scott Detrow]

Yeah, it is.

[Mark Rivers]

Definitely a little more. Yeah, A little more cursing than in Mirko on 34th Street.

[Scott Detrow]

Okay, so of this tier three, what are a couple of your favorites? And are there ones that you watch every single December?

[Mark Rivers]

So I do have a couple that I watch every December, and I mentioned one of them. It's the Apartment with Jack lemmon and Shirley MacLaine. Jack Lemmon plays this insurance employee who's trying to climb the corporate ladder. And one of the ways he's doing this is maybe not so nice for the holiday season. Lending out his nice Upper west side apartment in New York City to top executives who then use it for their extramarital affairs.

[Scott Detrow]

It's a real nice apartment. Nothing fancy, but kind of cozy. Just right for a bachelor. The only problem is I can't always.

[Mark Rivers]

Get in when I want to. The movie sounds a lot sleazier than it actually is, but it's one of those movies that I always turn to for comfort around the holiday season.

[Scott Detrow]

Let's talk about the very first tier of movie you watched. It could be any movie whatsoever, but it's just one that you or your family or friends happen to watch every single December. Is there anything for you?

[Mark Rivers]

I mean, first tier that I have to watch every year, I think we talked about this last year as well, is Elf. Okay, people, Tomorrow, tomorrow morning, 10am Santa's coming to town. Santa. Oh, my God. Santa here. I know him. That's the kind of last really great Christmas movie that we've gotten. And I think one of the keys to that movie is that only the Elf character played by Will Ferrell, actually realizes he's in a Christmas movie. The rest of the cast is more like we Are, where they're just trying to make it through the day, make it through work. They're trying to, you know, appease their boss and they're trying to just like, you know, stay together as a family. So I think it's so relatable in that way. It doesn't force the sentiment of the mov. I think the sentiment feels very earned.

[Scott Detrow]

Can I tell you a realization I had about Elf this past week when I watched it for the 500th time? And I say this as someone of a certain age and somebody who consumed a lot of the Lord of the Rings content as well. It never occurred to me that the kind of annoying Central Park Rangers plotline of Elf is just a Lord of the Rings reference of the Nazgul, because those movies came out around the time.

[Mark Rivers]

You'Ve just now made me think about that. But that makes a lot of sense. I think Lord of the Rings is another movie that many of my friends that they watch every year, even though it has nothing to do with Christmas time. But I think like something like Lord of the Rings or something like wizard of Oz or Harry Potter. It's the fantastical, magical element of it, all, right, where there's something magical about Christmas and we kind of want to find that magic in the movies as well.

[Scott Detrow]

And intergenerational nostalgia and relationships built around that movie or that book and that story.

[Mark Rivers]

It's a movie that you pass down to your kids, right? Your niece and nephew, for sure.

[Scott Detrow]

That is NPR producer Mark Rivers. Mark, thanks as always.

[Mark Rivers]

Thank you, Scott.

[Scott Detrow]

This episode was produced by Gabriel Sanchez and Mark Rivers. It was edited by Adam Raney and Conor Donovan. Our executive producer is Sam Mi Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Scott Detrow. Hi, I'm Kathryn Marr, CEO of npr, where we're guided by a bold mission to create a more informed public. Join us today by [e-mail].

[Mark Rivers]

Oh, Santa here coming to you from the North Pole, where the elves in our Podcast division have just completed work on this season's best gift for public radio lovers, NPR. Plus give the gift of sponsored free listening and even bonus episodes from your favorite NPR podcasts, all while supporting public media. Learn more at plus.npr.org Want to hear this podcast without sponsor breaks? Amazon prime members can listen to Consider this Sponsor free through Amazon Music. Or you can also support NPR's vital journalism and get consider this plus@ +npr.org that's +npr.org.