What Trump's cuts to intelligence could mean for national security

Summary

Consider This: What Trump's Cuts to Intelligence Could Mean for National Security
Consider This from NPR, Hosted by Mary Louise Kelly
Release Date: May 26, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "What Trump's cuts to intelligence could mean for national security," NPR's Mary Louise Kelly delves into the significant restructuring of the United States' national security apparatus under President Donald Trump. The discussion centers around the implications of recent staffing reductions at the National Security Council (NSC) and the broader impact on America's ability to safeguard its interests both domestically and internationally.

Richard Clarke's Background and Perspective

Richard Clarke, a seasoned national security expert with over three decades of experience, serves as the episode's primary guest. Clarke has a storied history in U.S. national security, having served under multiple administrations, including George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush. Notably, Clarke was a senior advisor on the National Security Council with the informal title of "counterterrorism czar."

Reflecting on past failures, Clarke recalls his testimony to the 9/11 Commission in 2004:

Richard Clarke [00:10]: "To the loved ones of the victims of 9/11, to them who are here in the room, to those who are watching on television, your government failed you. Those entrusted with protecting you failed you, and I failed you."

Clarke emphasized that despite his efforts to alert President George W. Bush and his Cabinet about the looming threat of Al Qaeda, the administration either dismissed the urgency or was unprepared to respond effectively.

Trump's Restructuring of the National Security Council

Fast forward to the Trump administration, the episode highlights a pattern of frequent and substantial changes within the national security framework:

• NSA Leadership Change: Last month, President Trump dismissed the Director of the National Security Agency (NSA), a move lauded by far-right activist Laura Loomer.

• NSC Staffing Cuts: On a Friday evening preceding a long holiday weekend, approximately half of the NSC staff received emails notifying them of their termination effective by 5 PM. This abrupt reduction is part of an ongoing trend of downsizing within the administration's second term.

• Consolidation of Roles: Marco Rubio, a political ally of Trump, has been appointed as the interim head of the NSC. Additionally, Rubio is now shouldering responsibilities as Secretary of State, acting head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, and acting Archivist of the United States. This consolidation raises concerns about the breadth and manageability of Rubio's new roles.

Clarke comments on these changes, expressing skepticism about their efficacy:

Mary Louise Kelly [04:41]: "It's Consider this from npr. [...] Ten of those years on the NSC. I spoke to him about what this could mean for intelligence gathering, national security and the president's ability to make informed decisions."

Impact on National Security and Intelligence Gathering

Clarke analyzes the potential ramifications of the NSC's downsizing:

Richard Clarke [05:40]: "I think the president has to have a personal relationship of trust with his national security advisor and apparently the president didn't have that with Mike Walz. [...] One is meant to keep an eye on the other. And if you're the same person, that gives you a little bit of a problem."

Clarke underscores the importance of having a dedicated national security advisor to ensure comprehensive analysis and balanced decision-making. He warns that reducing the NSC staff could lead to:

• Lack of Analytical Rigor: The NSC traditionally provides multiple options for presidential decisions, evaluating them against consistent criteria. Without sufficient staff, this critical analysis may be compromised.

• Overreliance on the President's Instincts: Clarke expresses concern that decisions may be driven by President Trump's intuition rather than informed analysis, potentially leading to flawed policies.

• Bureaucratic Oversight Weakening: A robust NSC ensures that various government departments—such as the State Department, Defense Department, and CIA—are aligned with presidential directives. Staffing cuts could diminish this oversight, allowing agencies to operate more independently and possibly counteract presidential policies.

The Role of the National Security Council

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the fundamental purpose of the NSC:

Richard Clarke [07:35]: "They are his staff. They are to give him options, and they are to keep an eye on the vast national security bureaucracy. [...] The real job of the NSC is to identify issues that need presidential guidance and then to give the President options and to analyze and compare those options."

Clarke argues that the NSC should not merely execute orders but should offer diverse perspectives and solutions to national security challenges. He critiques the current administration for seemingly adopting a unilateral approach:

Richard Clarke [08:20]: "I think it's the latter. [...] They have no economic analysis of the implications of their tariff decisions. They have no analysis of their decisions with regard to Russia. It's all intuitive, it's all gut."

Historical Context and Examples

To illustrate the importance of a well-functioning NSC, Clarke references past administrations where the NSC effectively influenced policy decisions:

Richard Clarke [09:35]: "Well, certainly when Bill Clinton came into office, he wanted to not invade Haiti [...] And we pointed out to him over time that that wasn't going to work and he had to reverse a campaign promise."

This example underscores how a proactive NSC can guide presidents away from untenable policies by presenting well-analyzed alternatives.

Marco Rubio's Vision for Foreign Policy

Addressing Marco Rubio's stance, Clarke critiques the notion that foreign policy should be solely managed by the State Department:

Richard Clarke [10:25]: "Well, they're not the only one that have equities. The President has equities. The Treasury Department has equities. The Commerce Department has equities, the Defense Department, the intelligence community. [...] The real job of the NSC is to identify issues that need presidential guidance and then to give the President options and to analyze and compare those options."

Clarke emphasizes that while the State Department plays a pivotal role in foreign policy, a collaborative approach involving multiple departments ensures a more comprehensive and effective strategy.

Recommendations for the Trump Administration

Drawing from his extensive experience, Clarke offers several recommendations to improve national security decision-making:

1. Appoint a Dedicated National Security Advisor: Ensuring that the president has a trusted and full-time advisor to oversee national security matters.

2. Define the Role of the NSC Clearly: Establishing a clear mandate for the NSC to identify key issues, provide diverse options, and oversee the implementation of policies.

3. Maintain Analytical Rigor: Emphasizing the importance of presenting multiple evaluated options to the president to facilitate informed decision-making.

4. Ensure Bureaucratic Accountability: Strengthening the NSC's role in monitoring and aligning various government agencies with presidential directives.

Richard Clarke [11:22]: "Well, first, get a national security advisor. Get a full time national security advisor. Secondly, agree on the role of the NSC. [...] And the real job of the NSC is to identify issues that need presidential decision number one. Number two, giving the president options and comparing them against a consistent set of evaluative criteria. And then three, oversee the implementation."

Conclusion

The episode underscores the critical role that a robust and well-staffed National Security Council plays in shaping effective and informed national security policies. Richard Clarke's insights highlight the potential risks associated with President Trump's ongoing reductions within the NSC and the broader intelligence community. By potentially undermining the analytical and oversight functions of these bodies, the administration may impede its ability to respond adeptly to emerging threats and complex international challenges.

Listeners are left contemplating the balance between presidential authority and the necessity of institutional expertise in national security decision-making. Clarke's seasoned perspective serves as a cautionary tale about the importance of maintaining strong, independent advisory bodies to safeguard the nation's security interests.

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This summary was crafted based on the transcript provided and aims to encapsulate the key discussions and insights from the NPR episode.

Transcript

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Richard Clark has thought a lot about how American national security decision making can go wrong because he's been there when it went wrong.

[Richard Clarke]

To the loved ones of the victims of 9 11, to them who are here in the room, to those who are watching on television, your government failed you. Those entrusted with protecting you failed you, and I failed you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That is CLARK Testifying in 2004 in a hearing of the 911 Commission, the official autopsy into the attacks of that day. He'd been a senior advisor on the National Security Council with the informal title of counterterrorism czar. In his testimony, which was backed up by memos, Clark said he tried to impress upon President George W. Bush and his Cabinet the urgency of the threat posed by Al Qaeda.

[Richard Clarke]

My view was that this administration, while it listened to me, didn't either believe me that there was an urgent problem or was unprepared to act as though there were an urgent problem.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Clark resigned in 2003. And in those 911 hearings and in a book published around the same time, Clark argued that Bush's security advisers had failed to get the right information in front of the president at the right moment. He also described a president who was pressing for intelligence that confirmed his pre existing beliefs. You can hear it in this interview with WHYY's FRESH AIR as Clark recounted a meeting with the president the day after 9 11.

[Richard Clarke]

He spoke to me in very firm, almost angry tones about the need for me to write a paper about Iraq's role or links. And I said, well, there aren't any significant links between Al Qaeda and Iraq.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

The Bush administration disputed Clark's accounts at the time. Two decades later, President Trump has been reshaping the national security apparatus around him on a near weekly basis. Last month, he fired the general in charge of the National Security Agency, a decision for which far right activist Laura Loomer appeared to claim credit. On Friday, he slashed staffing at the National Security Council, the team of foreign policy experts who advise the president president. And he has also made his political ally Marco Rubio, the interim head of the council. Normally a full time job on its own, Rubio is now adding national Security advisor to his responsibilities as Secretary of State, acting head of the U.S. agency for International Development and acting archivist of the United States. As Trump put it earlier this month, Marco Rubio.

[Richard Clarke]

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Marco. When I have a problem, I call up Marco. He gets it solved.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Consider this. The US Government has long relied on scores of intelligence officials across the government to keep America safe. Trump wants many of them gone. What could that mean for security at home and abroad. From npr, I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

It's Consider this from npr. It's a classic Washington power move. The late on Friday news dump. This past Friday at 4:30pm Start of a long holiday weekend, about half the staff of the National Security Council got emails asking them to leave by 5pm Dozens of people abruptly dismissed. This continues the trend in this second term for President Trump of radical downsizing. Richard Clark served more than three decades in the kinds of jobs being cut. Ten of those years on the nsc. I spoke to him about what this could mean for intelligence gathering, national security and the president's ability to make informed decisions. As you have tracked some of these changes over the last few months, I'm curious what has struck you and I wonder if you would start with the departure of Trump's initial national security adviser, Mike Waltz, and now Secretary of State Rubio stepping in to do that job as well as being Secretary of State.

[Richard Clarke]

Well, I think the president has to have a personal relationship of trust with his national security advisor and apparently the president didn't have that with Mike Walz. I think Mike was very well qualified to do the job, but if he didn't have that relationship, then he really couldn't do the job in the best way. So I understand President asking him to leave. You can't be secretary of state and national security adviser. I know Henry Kissinger did that for A while.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I was about to say there is precedent.

[Richard Clarke]

It wasn't a good precedent there, but they're two very different jobs. And in fact, one is meant to keep an eye on the other. And if you're the same person, that gives you a little bit of a problem. So I hope that doesn't continue.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And then what about this purge over the weekend? Would you use that? Is that the right word?

[Richard Clarke]

Well, it's a reduction in staff. I may surprise you by what I'm about to say. I have no problem with reducing the size of the NSC staff significantly, maybe even by half. It had grown over the course of the last two decades. It had grown out of all proportion. Is really not how many people are on it. The question is, what's its role? And when I heard that Rubio wants to change the role. Change it to what? It performs a very essential role. And if you're going to change that, we're going to have problems in national security.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Rubio spoke to this a little bit. These were in a statement to Axios, which was the first news organization to report the firings last week. And Rubio said, and I'm quoting the right sizing of the NSC is in line with its original purpose and the President's vision. Dick Clark, speak to that second thing, the President's vision. To what degree is the National Security Council supposed to reflect the President's vision, and to what extent are they supposed to challenge it?

[Richard Clarke]

They are his staff. They are to give him options, and they are to keep an eye on the vast national security bureaucracy. You know, the State Department, the Defense Department, the CIA won't tell you everything that they're doing. And you need people that you trust on your staff who will keep an eye on them to make sure that they're implementing your directives. But the real job of the NSC is to identify issues that need presidential guidance and then to give the President options and to analyze and compare those options. And what I see not happening in this administration is the analysis part, as far as I can tell.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Do you see, and I understand you're on the outside now, but do you see them giving him options, or do you see them being told, this is the plan, find a way to make it work?

[Richard Clarke]

I think it sounds like it's the latter.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

What have you seen that causes you to say that?

[Richard Clarke]

Well, everything. They have no economic analysis of the implications of their tariff decisions. They have no analysis of their decisions with regard to Russia. It's all intuitive, it's all gut. It's all his gut. And his gut's frequently wrong because he doesn't have experience in this area. And a good NSC staff comes up with options and compare all three or four or five options against a set of evaluative criteria that everyone can agree on. If you don't do that, you will regret it because you'll get mush. And I think that's what's happening.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Just to make this concrete, is there an incident, an example you would point me to from your time in government where there was debate, there was back and forth, the NSC came up with a menu of options, presented them, and the president maybe changed his mind?

[Richard Clarke]

Well, certainly when Bill Clinton came into office, he wanted to not invade Haiti, not restore the democratically elected president. He wanted to keep the thousands of Haitian immigrants in various places around the Caribbean. And we pointed out to him over time that that wasn't going to work and he had to reverse a campaign promise. And he did, because the facts were the facts. But we presented him with the facts and with the analysis.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Hmm. I know that Marco Rubio, in his brief days so far running the NSC and the State Department, he's made the point that foreign policy, that the NSC is redundant in many ways and that foreign policy should be being conducted out of the State Department where they already have all these in house experts. What's wrong with that view?

[Richard Clarke]

Well, they're not the only one that have equities. The President has equities. The Treasury Department has equities. The Commerce Department has equities, the Defense Department, the intelligence community. Yeah. The State Department is the lead implement and it should perhaps be the lead in developing an option. But there are a lot of other experts in the government and a lot of other interests that the State Department does not reflect.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Just to read people in on your own history, Richard Clark, you started on George H.W. bush, national security Council. Bill Clinton came into office, he asked you to stay on a few months. I believe that became eight years. Yeah. And then the second President Bush, Bush 43, asked you to stay on. Stay on a few months, that became a couple of years. So in other words, you have the long view on this. With the long view in mind, would you offer any advice to President Trump, to Marco Rubio as they try to figure this path out?

[Richard Clarke]

Well, first, get a national security advisor. Get a full time national security advisor. Secondly, agree on the role of the nsc. The number of people there is a secondary issue. Agree on the role. And the role ought to be coming up with what issues deserve presidential decision number one. Number two, giving the president options and comparing them against a consistent set of evaluative criteria. And then three, oversee the implementation. Because presidents make the mistake that they think a policy is over when they decide it. No, it's only just begun. When you have a presidential decision, the bureaucracy I know this will surprise you. The bureaucracy will do what it wants over time and will ignore presidential orders.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Richard Clark, who held quite a few jobs, as you just heard, in US Government policy roles across decades. He is also the author of several books, most recently Artificial Intelligentsia. Richard Clark, Thanks.

[Richard Clarke]

Thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

This episode was produced by Conor Donovan with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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