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A (4:06)

It's Consider this from NPR Deborah Lipstadt spent nearly three years as the Biden administration's special envoy to monitor and combat antisemitism. She joined me to talk about the events in Australia over the weekend and the rise of antisemitism globally. This awful attack on Sunday, it's one of several that have taken place since October 7, since Israel's war with Hamas began. Can you just walk us through the types of threats the Jewish community faces in Australia?

F (4:40)

It's one of several in Australia, but it's a phenomenon worldwide. Since October 7, there have been burnings of synagogues, arson of synagogues on five different continents, including in Australia and Melbourne. There have been persistent attacks on Jews eating in kosher or Jewish style or Israeli restaurants. There have been attacks on Jews walking on the streets, including in Manhattan and in parts of other parts of New York City. There is something going on that's not happenstance. I don't want to suggest to your listeners that there's some sort of giant conspiracy, but there is an effort which was exemplified by two events, one in Australia and one on the Upper east side of Manhattan. The one in Australia was on October 9, 2023, two days after the Hamas attack on Israel, where in front of the iconic Sydney Opera House, protesters march chanting, you know, globalize the intifada, which most Jews interpret as harm Jews everywhere from the river to the sea. Some say they chanted Gaza Jews. That's up for debate. But the thing that struck me most is their chant. Where are the Jews? Where are the Jews? And I was reminded of that last month when I watched the clips outside of Parky Synagogue in New York, where again, they chanted the chants that we've gotten used to, which are horrific. But then they also said, make them afraid, make them afraid.

A (6:20)

It's interesting. You're talking about parallels you see between what has just happened in Australia, what has been happening in Australia and what you see happening in the us. Just to put a number on this, the adl, the Anti Defamation League, has tracked what they Say is a five fold increase in antisemitic attacks since October 7th in Australia, understanding that an acceptable number of antisemitic attacks would be zero. Has Australia's experience been radically different from the US's in these intervening two years?

F (6:57)

I don't think so. There is, I mean, you know, it used to be that if you were going to Europe, if American Jew was going to Europe and they wanted to go to a synagogue, they'd be told by friends, by people there, by informants who live there, whatever, call ahead and let the synagogue know you're coming for services. Be sure to bring ID and a passport, you know, at least a passport. And if, if you have trouble finding the place, follow the men who are walking on the street in suits and baseball caps. Why them? Because they're covering up their quipote. They don't want to show their kipot. And if that doesn' just stand on the street where the synagogue is and look up and down for the gendarmes and their carabiners, their, their, their guns, their rifles. That's the synagogue. That used to be the instructions for Europe, that used to be the instructions for Argentina and in certain places in Australia as well. Now it's the instructions everywhere. There was no public celebration except in Israel of Hanukkah last night on any continent that police protection. And it probably would have, it probably had more because of Australia, but it would have had it anyway.

A (8:12)

The instructions you're describing, bring your passport, call ahead. This is because the Jewish community, the synagogue is worried about security risks. They want to make sure you're who you are you say you are.

F (8:25)

Right, right, right. You know, I was in the Berkshires, I think last summer, maybe the summer before. I was driving through Lenox early on a Sunday morning, 10am and I passed one of these revolutionary era, maybe a little later, but certainly old churches, white clapper church. And I did a double take. Something looks strange to me. And then I realized what it was. The double doors in the entry to the church were thrown wide open and there were members of the congregation standing there smiling and handing out the service order of the service of the day to anybody who walked up the steps. You'd never see that in any synagogue, in any place in the world again except in Israel.

A (9:10)

So let me Turn us to Australia and the questions that are emerging after this massacre. I think that's the accurate word. Questions being raised. Jews in Australia were aware that they were being targeted. Has the government of Australia done enough to protect the community?

F (9:30)

When I was in office, and I've been out of office now since January, but when I was in office I heard complaints. They're not doing enough. They're not taking it seriously. They say the right things, but the actions aren't happening.

A (9:43)

What should they do? Well, what can they do?

F (9:45)

What can they do? First of all, good security, but even more good investigations. One of the murderers, the son, was on their list for his association apparently with foreign groups. The details are just emerging. I don't have them all, but take this seriously. That's the whole thing. Take it seriously. When people chant Gaz the look, you can't. There is freedom of speech and I'm a tremendous advocate of freedom of speech. But when you hear these, where are the Jews? When you see demonstrations, when people attack restaurants, don't make light of it. Say this is something bigger.

A (10:28)

So just to be specific and understanding that you are an expert on anti Semitism, not on security for events. That's right. But it sounds like what you're saying is for an event like this where we knew that there were going to be a lot of Jews gathered for a Hanukkah event, there should have been security or there should have been much security.

F (10:46)

Much better security, Much better security. But the thing to do is to prevent it ahead of time and you know, there's an atmosphere created. I'll go back to the phrase globalize the intifada. I know intifada has a meaning in Muslim theology of a certain kind, but the intifada means referen the attack on Jews. The first intifada and second intifada in Israel in which thousands of Jews were murdered. Some non Jews, but primarily Jews were murdered. When they talk about globalizing the intifada, don't discourage it. Don't say, oh, I can't condemn it, but I wouldn't use that term. As some elected officials have said, that's giving a green light. Condemn it outright.

A (11:33)

I do want to note Australia's Prime Minister, Prime Minister Albanese has called what happened on Bondi beach an act of pure evil, in his words. He's also talked about things his government has done to try to fight antisemitism. He noted, for example, setting up a federal police task force to investigate reports and incidents. Are those steps in the right direction?

F (11:57)

They are the steps in the right direction. You know, maybe a little late, but certainly in the right direction. And look, the main effort, of course, has to be taken by government because this is a government issue. This is a criminal issue. This is murder and attacks, you know, criminal, criminal attacks. But it's gotta be a whole of society approach, too. I mean, the only heartening thing to come out of this horrific, horrific attack was the fact that the one of the shooters was brought down by residents of a Bondi beach who happens to be a Muslim. And he did it, when you look at the video, he did it at the risk of his life. It didn't like he struggled with a man. And had the struggle gone a little bit differently, he might have been one of the victims.

A (12:43)

That's Deborah Lipstadt. She's a professor of Jewish history and Holocaust studies at Emory University. She served as the Biden administration's special envoy for monitoring antisemitism Ambassador thank you.

F (12:57)

Thank you very much. Mayor LOUISE Take care.

A (12:59)

And you. This episode was produced by Michael Levitt and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sammy Yenigun. It's considered this from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly.

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