Consider This from NPR

Episode Title: When it comes to the U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia, it's complicated
Air Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Juana Summers
Guests: Danielle Kurtzleben (NPR White House Correspondent), Jason Rezaian (Director for Press Freedom Initiatives at the Washington Post)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolving and contentious U.S.-Saudi Arabia relationship, focusing on President Trump’s recent White House meeting with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS). Despite lingering outrage over the Kingdom's human rights record—most notably the 2018 murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi—the U.S. is signaling closer economic and security ties, making the “pariah” label a thing of the past.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting U.S. Policy on Saudi Arabia

• Campaign Promises vs. Political Reality

  • President Biden initially vowed to make Saudi Arabia a "pariah" in response to Khashoggi's murder and promised consequences for MBS’s involvement.
    • Quote: “We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are.” – Jason Rezaian quoting Biden’s stance [00:04]
  • Biden’s position softened once in office, with his 2022 trip to Riyadh marking a pivot towards diplomatic engagement, though still maintaining a measured distance. [00:33]

• President Trump’s Embrace of MBS

  • Trump’s approach is one of visible warmth and celebration, rolling out exceptional ceremonial hospitality and repeatedly calling the Crown Prince a “friend.”
    • Quote: “We have a extremely respected man in the Oval Office today and a friend of mine for a long time, a very good friend of mine.” – Donald Trump [00:46, 14:04]
  • Trump openly dismisses the findings of the U.S. intelligence community regarding Khashoggi’s murder, emphasizing business and strategic partnerships instead. [01:35, 05:14]

2. Khashoggi’s Murder and Press Freedom

• Conflicting Narratives

  • U.S. intelligence assessed that MBS approved Khashoggi’s murder; MBS persistently denies involvement, calling it a painful and regrettable mistake.
    • Quote: “It's been painful for us in Saudi Arabia...we've improved our system to be sure that nothing happen like that...and we are doing our best that this doesn't happen again.” – MBS at the White House [01:18]
  • Trump refuses to condemn MBS or the Saudi government, labeling Khashoggi as “controversial” and suggests moving on.
    • Quote: “Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he [MBS] knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.” – Donald Trump [05:14]

• Press Freedom Perspective

  • Jason Rezaian, himself a journalist and press freedom advocate, warns about the signal this leniency sends internationally.
    • Quote: “It's a signal to friends and foes alike that you can literally get away with murder if you're the right kind of partner to the United States.” [01:38]
    • Quote: “I think it's a mistake for the United States to greenlight the type of behavior that Mohammed bin Salman has been guilty of multiple times.” [01:57]

3. Economic and Security Stakes

• Business Deals and Statecraft

  • The episode highlights a new U.S.-Saudi deal: Saudi Arabia pledges hundreds of billions in U.S. investment; in return, the U.S. will share military, technology, and possibly nuclear resources.
    • The upcoming U.S.-Saudi Investment Forum includes key industries: tech, oil, pharmaceuticals. [04:23]

• Security, Arms, and Diplomacy

  • Saudi Arabia seeks advanced F-35 jets, AI technology, and a formal defense pact with U.S. military backing.
    • Quote: “That country wants to buy advanced F35 jets, … wants access to advanced AI chips and they want assistance on developing nuclear power.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [06:30]
  • The Saudis are interested in joining the Abraham Accords for diplomatic ties with Israel, but insist on progress toward a two-state solution—an impasse given Israeli PM Netanyahu’s hardline stance.
    • Quote: “Mohammed bin Salman said he wants to be part of the Abraham Accords, but also wants a two state solution. Now, Benjamin Netanyahu … has said there will never be a Palestinian state.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [07:19]

4. Conflicts of Interest

• Trump’s Business Ties
  • Questions arise regarding the Trump Organization’s commercial interests in Saudi Arabia, with Trump asserting that he is not currently involved in company operations, but confirming ongoing branded property development in the Kingdom.
    • Quote: “He brushed off any concerns about conflicts of interest. He said he isn't involved in the family business right now, but the ties … are still there.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [07:45]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are.”
  — Jason Rezaian quoting Biden [00:04]

• “It's a signal to friends and foes alike that you can literally get away with murder if you're the right kind of partner to the United States.”
  — Jason Rezaian [01:38]

• “Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he knew nothing about it ... you don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.”
  — Donald Trump [05:14]

• “Mohammed bin Salman said he wants to be part of the Abraham Accords, but also wants a two state solution. Now, Benjamin Netanyahu … has said there will never be a Palestinian state.”
  — Danielle Kurtzleben [07:19]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening context & campaign rhetoric: 00:00–01:10
• U.S.-Saudi diplomatic pivot under Trump: 00:33–01:46
• Khashoggi murder fallout & press freedom: 01:47–02:06
• White House ceremonial welcome & business focus: 04:23–05:02
• Press conference exchange on Khashoggi: 05:14–06:21
• Details on arms, technology, and investment deals: 06:30–07:19
• Abraham Accords & Israel-Palestine hurdle: 07:19–07:40
• Conflict of interest and Trump business ties: 07:45–07:59
• Ceremonial closing remarks: 14:04–14:31

Memorable Moments

• Trump lavishly welcoming MBS, calling him “a very good friend of mine” with highly unusual pomp. [00:54, 14:04]
• Trump’s defense of MBS and downplaying Khashoggi’s killing, shifting focus away from accountability. [05:14]
• The Crown Prince’s carefully worded remarks expressing regret while denying personal involvement. [01:18]
• Danielle Kurtzleben succinctly outlining both sides' priorities—highlighting how economic and security priorities are overriding human rights concerns. [06:30, 07:19]

Tone and Takeaways

The episode’s tone is sober and critical yet factual, with NPR’s journalistic approach emphasizing the tension between economic/strategic interests and the pursuit of human rights and accountability. The dialogue features direct, sometimes blunt language from Trump and serious, analytical commentary from NPR journalists and guests.

Listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of:

• The persistent tensions and contradictions in U.S.-Saudi relations
• The impact of realpolitik on moral and legal accountability for human rights abuses
• The complex interplay of economics, national security, diplomacy, and presidential business ties