When it comes to the U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia, it's complicated

Summary

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Consider This from NPR

Episode Title: When it comes to the U.S. relationship with Saudi Arabia, it's complicated
Air Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Juana Summers
Guests: Danielle Kurtzleben (NPR White House Correspondent), Jason Rezaian (Director for Press Freedom Initiatives at the Washington Post)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the evolving and contentious U.S.-Saudi Arabia relationship, focusing on President Trump’s recent White House meeting with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MBS). Despite lingering outrage over the Kingdom's human rights record—most notably the 2018 murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi—the U.S. is signaling closer economic and security ties, making the “pariah” label a thing of the past.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Shifting U.S. Policy on Saudi Arabia

• Campaign Promises vs. Political Reality

  • President Biden initially vowed to make Saudi Arabia a "pariah" in response to Khashoggi's murder and promised consequences for MBS’s involvement.
    • Quote: “We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are.” – Jason Rezaian quoting Biden’s stance [00:04]
  • Biden’s position softened once in office, with his 2022 trip to Riyadh marking a pivot towards diplomatic engagement, though still maintaining a measured distance. [00:33]

• President Trump’s Embrace of MBS

  • Trump’s approach is one of visible warmth and celebration, rolling out exceptional ceremonial hospitality and repeatedly calling the Crown Prince a “friend.”
    • Quote: “We have a extremely respected man in the Oval Office today and a friend of mine for a long time, a very good friend of mine.” – Donald Trump [00:46, 14:04]
  • Trump openly dismisses the findings of the U.S. intelligence community regarding Khashoggi’s murder, emphasizing business and strategic partnerships instead. [01:35, 05:14]

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2. Khashoggi’s Murder and Press Freedom

• Conflicting Narratives

  • U.S. intelligence assessed that MBS approved Khashoggi’s murder; MBS persistently denies involvement, calling it a painful and regrettable mistake.
    • Quote: “It's been painful for us in Saudi Arabia...we've improved our system to be sure that nothing happen like that...and we are doing our best that this doesn't happen again.” – MBS at the White House [01:18]
  • Trump refuses to condemn MBS or the Saudi government, labeling Khashoggi as “controversial” and suggests moving on.
    • Quote: “Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he [MBS] knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.” – Donald Trump [05:14]

• Press Freedom Perspective

  • Jason Rezaian, himself a journalist and press freedom advocate, warns about the signal this leniency sends internationally.
    • Quote: “It's a signal to friends and foes alike that you can literally get away with murder if you're the right kind of partner to the United States.” [01:38]
    • Quote: “I think it's a mistake for the United States to greenlight the type of behavior that Mohammed bin Salman has been guilty of multiple times.” [01:57]

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3. Economic and Security Stakes

• Business Deals and Statecraft

  • The episode highlights a new U.S.-Saudi deal: Saudi Arabia pledges hundreds of billions in U.S. investment; in return, the U.S. will share military, technology, and possibly nuclear resources.
    • The upcoming U.S.-Saudi Investment Forum includes key industries: tech, oil, pharmaceuticals. [04:23]

• Security, Arms, and Diplomacy

  • Saudi Arabia seeks advanced F-35 jets, AI technology, and a formal defense pact with U.S. military backing.
    • Quote: “That country wants to buy advanced F35 jets, … wants access to advanced AI chips and they want assistance on developing nuclear power.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [06:30]
  • The Saudis are interested in joining the Abraham Accords for diplomatic ties with Israel, but insist on progress toward a two-state solution—an impasse given Israeli PM Netanyahu’s hardline stance.
    • Quote: “Mohammed bin Salman said he wants to be part of the Abraham Accords, but also wants a two state solution. Now, Benjamin Netanyahu … has said there will never be a Palestinian state.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [07:19]

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4. Conflicts of Interest

• Trump’s Business Ties
  • Questions arise regarding the Trump Organization’s commercial interests in Saudi Arabia, with Trump asserting that he is not currently involved in company operations, but confirming ongoing branded property development in the Kingdom.
    • Quote: “He brushed off any concerns about conflicts of interest. He said he isn't involved in the family business right now, but the ties … are still there.” – Danielle Kurtzleben [07:45]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are.”
  — Jason Rezaian quoting Biden [00:04]

• “It's a signal to friends and foes alike that you can literally get away with murder if you're the right kind of partner to the United States.”
  — Jason Rezaian [01:38]

• “Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he knew nothing about it ... you don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.”
  — Donald Trump [05:14]

• “Mohammed bin Salman said he wants to be part of the Abraham Accords, but also wants a two state solution. Now, Benjamin Netanyahu … has said there will never be a Palestinian state.”
  — Danielle Kurtzleben [07:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening context & campaign rhetoric: 00:00–01:10
• U.S.-Saudi diplomatic pivot under Trump: 00:33–01:46
• Khashoggi murder fallout & press freedom: 01:47–02:06
• White House ceremonial welcome & business focus: 04:23–05:02
• Press conference exchange on Khashoggi: 05:14–06:21
• Details on arms, technology, and investment deals: 06:30–07:19
• Abraham Accords & Israel-Palestine hurdle: 07:19–07:40
• Conflict of interest and Trump business ties: 07:45–07:59
• Ceremonial closing remarks: 14:04–14:31

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Memorable Moments

• Trump lavishly welcoming MBS, calling him “a very good friend of mine” with highly unusual pomp. [00:54, 14:04]
• Trump’s defense of MBS and downplaying Khashoggi’s killing, shifting focus away from accountability. [05:14]
• The Crown Prince’s carefully worded remarks expressing regret while denying personal involvement. [01:18]
• Danielle Kurtzleben succinctly outlining both sides' priorities—highlighting how economic and security priorities are overriding human rights concerns. [06:30, 07:19]

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode’s tone is sober and critical yet factual, with NPR’s journalistic approach emphasizing the tension between economic/strategic interests and the pursuit of human rights and accountability. The dialogue features direct, sometimes blunt language from Trump and serious, analytical commentary from NPR journalists and guests.

Listeners come away with a nuanced understanding of:

• The persistent tensions and contradictions in U.S.-Saudi relations
• The impact of realpolitik on moral and legal accountability for human rights abuses
• The complex interplay of economics, national security, diplomacy, and presidential business ties

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Transcript

[Juana Summers]

President Biden once vowed to make Saudi Arabia a pariah state.

[Jason Rezaian]

We were going to, in fact, make them pay the price and make them, in fact, the pariah that they are.

[Juana Summers]

And by pay the price, Biden is referring to the Saudi government's role in the 2018 murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. The US intelligence community concluded that Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman approved the killing. Saudi Arabia has denied his role.

[Jason Rezaian]

There's very little social redeeming value in the present military government in Saudi Arabia.

[Juana Summers]

But after promising to punish the kingdom, Biden changed his tune. After he became president, Biden traveled to Riyadh in 2022 to rebuild relations, but kept the Saudi government an arm's length away until today.

[Donald Trump]

We have a extremely respected man in the Oval Office today and a friend of mine for a long time, a very good friend of mine.

[Juana Summers]

President Trump welcomed the crown prince to the White House with a level of pomp and circumstance rarely on display. There was a military FL and a welcome from the US Marine ban. Mohammed bin Salman last visited the US Seven years ago, just months before Khashoggi's death. The crown prince has denied responsibility for the killing. Here he is at the White House on Tuesday.

[Jason Rezaian]

It's been painful for us in Saudi Arabia. We've did all the right steps of investigation, etc. In Saudi Arabia and we've improved our system to be sure that nothing happened like that. And it's painful and it's a huge mistake and we are doing our best that this doesn't happen again.

[Juana Summers]

Trump dismissed the findings Tuesday.

[Jason Rezaian]

It's a signal to friends and foes alike that you can literally get away with murder if you're the right kind of partner to the United States.

[Juana Summers]

That's Jason Rezaian. He's the director for press freedom initiatives at the Washington Post, the paper where Khashoggi was a columnist when he was murdered. He spoke to NPR Tuesday morning.

[Jason Rezaian]

I think it's a mistake for the United States to greenlight the type of behavior that Mohammed bin Salman has been guilty of multiple times.

[Juana Summers]

Consider this. President Trump is deepening the US Relationship with Saudi Arabia despite the government coming under fire for human rights abuses. Despite the concerns the prince himself ordered the killing of a journalist. Why is Saudi Arabia such an important ally for the United States?

[Jason Rezaian]

Foreign.

[Juana Summers]

From NPR, I'm Juana Summers.

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[Juana Summers]

It's Consider this from npr. President Trump met with Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman on Tuesday. The men touted a deal between the two countries. The Saudi government would bring hundreds of billions in investment into the United States, and in exchange, the United States would grant access to key military and technology assets for the Gulf Nation. NPR White House correspondent Danielle Kurtzleben joined me to talk about the meeting. So, Danielle, I know that there is a whole lot of ceremony around the crown prince's arrival, and this evening there is a black tie dinner. What does all of this tell us about the that President Trump is approaching this visit?

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Well, it shows very clearly that Trump is really excited about the visit. After all, he's welcomed many foreign leaders this year and he doesn't give them all swanky dinners. So the tone is celebratory. Already today in the Oval Office with the crown prince, Trump was emphasizing potential Saudi investments in the US and really seemed excited about that. So we should expect a lot of investment talk. In fact, there's an event tomorrow called the US Saudi Investment Forum at the Kennedy center, and it's set to include speakers from tech, oil and medicine pharma companies. And so it's really meant to telegraph that the Saudi US Partnership is going to be great for business.

[Juana Summers]

Saudi Arabia has repeatedly come under fire for human rights abuses. I'm thinking specifically of the killing of Washington Post journalist jamal Khashoggi in 2018. And that did come up during today's presser.

[Donald Trump]

Let's listen to as far as this gentleman is concerned, he's done a phenomenal job. You're mentioning somebody that was extremely controversial. A lot of people didn't like that gentleman that you're talking about. Whether you like him or didn't like him, things happen. But he knew nothing about it. And we can leave it at that. You don't have to embarrass our guests by asking a question like that.

[Juana Summers]

And I'll note that US Intelligence has found that Mohammed bin Salman did approve the operation to kill Khashoggi. However, we should say that the crown prince does deny having a role. Tell us more about that exchange today.

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Well, even before Khashoggi came up at the start of the meeting, Trump praised the crown prince on his human rights record. And then when a reporter asked about Khashoggi, as you heard, President Trump got angry and shockingly didn't condemn the killing and dismemberment of a journalist from an American news outlet. Rather, Trump called Khashoggi, who a Saudi Arabia controversial. Now, the crown prince did answer after that, and he said the killing was a painful incident and that his country has taken steps to make sure nothing like that will ever happen again.

[NPR Announcer]

Right.

[Juana Summers]

Okay. We know that economics and security, they're both top priorities here. What deals are the US And Saudi Arabia hoping to get out of this visit?

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Well, let's start with what Saudi Arabia wants. That country wants to buy advanced F35 jets, which Trump has said this week the US will sell to them. Saudi Arabia also wants access to advanced AI chips and they want assistance on developing nuclear power. Although today in that meeting, Trump said nuclear cooperation isn't urgent right now. But finally, the Saudis are looking for a defense pact. They want an agreement that the US Would help defend their country if they were attacked.

[Juana Summers]

And what about what the US Wants?

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Well, the crown prince has already said earlier this year that his country would do $600 billion in investments. In the US today, he said there could be even more investments than that, which Trump got pretty excited about. But also Trump is going to be pushing Saudi Arabia to sign onto the Abraham Accords, which is a series of diplomatic deals he brokered in his first term between Israel and other Arab countries. But there's a pretty significant hurdle to that happening today. Mohammed bin Salman said he wants to be part of the Abraham Accords, but also wants a two state solution. Now, Benjamin Netanyahu, the leader of Israel, has said there will never be a Palestinian state.

[Juana Summers]

Last thing and quickly, Danielle, President Trump was also asked today about his family's business dealings in Saudi Arabia. How do you respond?

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Well, he brushed off any concerns about conflicts of interest. He said he isn't involved in the family business right now, but the ties between the Trump Organization and Saudi Arabia are still there. For example, Trump branded properties are being developed in Saudi Arabia.

[Juana Summers]

NPR White House correspondent Daniel Kurtzleben, thank you.

[Danielle Kurtzleben]

Thank you.

[Juana Summers]

This episode was produced by Gabriel Sanchez and Karen Zamora. It was edited by Jeanette Woods, Dana Farrington and Courtney Dorning. Executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's consider this from npr. I'm Juana Summers.

[Donald Trump]

Well, thank you very much, everybody. We have a extremely respected man in the Oval Office today and a friend of mine for a long time, a very good friend of mine. And I'm very proud of the job he's done. What he's done is incredible in terms of human rights and everything else. And he's the crown prince, the future king. And I just.

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