Ailsa Chang (3:09)

It's consider this from NPR. It's an Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11, where the US Constitution empowers Congress, not the president, to declare war. Of course, anyone versed in recent US History will know that US Presidents have authorized plenty of military action without Congress first signing off. One timely example, last year the US Struck three nuclear sites in Iran, joining Israel in its fight against the country. Right now, the US has massively built up military forces in the Middle east, and this week it's conducting diplomatic talks with Iran. Members of Congress are trying to prevent President Trump from acting without congressional approval. And one of them is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Welcome back, Elsa.

Senator Tim Kaine (3:53)

Great to be with you. Thanks.

Ailsa Chang (3:55)

Great to have you. So when do you expect to vote on this resolution, Elsa?

Senator Tim Kaine (3:58)

It will happen early next week, even as I sit here talking to you. It's being negotiated, but it will be in the first couple of days of next week when we're back in session Monday.

Ailsa Chang (4:08)

Okay. But I have to ask because previous votes on war powers resolutions like over Venezuela, over last year's strikes on Iran, they have failed. Almost all Republicans have voted against them. So why does this moment feel any different to you?

Senator Tim Kaine (4:22)

Well, first, whether they succeed or fail, we shouldn't be at war without a vote. And so members of Congress should be held accountable. Secondly, we learn, and particularly in the Venezuela vote in the Senate, we actually got enough votes, Democrat, plus some Republicans initially, and then a few Republicans got convinced to to change their minds in some subsequent votes. But it changed the president's behavior after the first vote. Within a few hours, he canceled a second strike on Venezuela. And he also agreed finally to have a public hearing to send Secretary Rubio up to discuss what, in fact was the mission, what were the goals, what would success look like? And so I very much learned from that effort, even though we ultimately were not successful, that forcing a vote and a debate on these matters brings it more to the public's attention, where the public can decide whether emission's in the national interest and it can even change the behavior of the administration.

Ailsa Chang (5:18)

But I want to share a statement from a fellow Democrat. This is Congressman Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey, who's opposed to an equivalent war powers resolution in the House. And he writes, quote, this resolution would restrict the flexibility needed to respond to real and evolving threats and risks, signaling weakness at a dangerous moment. What do you say to your colleague there about that I'm on the Armed

Senator Tim Kaine (5:42)

Services Committee in the Foreign Relations Committee, and I'm in the classified facility all the time hearing about risks. And I hear nothing whatsoever about any risks right now that Iran poses the United States that are at a sufficient level that we should allow a president to take our sons and daughters into war without a debate by Congress.

Ailsa Chang (6:02)

Well, during the State of the Union address, President Trump said that Iran is developing missiles that may soon be able to reach the US and that Iran is restarting its nuclear program. How much has the Trump administration shared evidence of those claims with lawmakers like you?

Senator Tim Kaine (6:20)

Well, let's take both. So how about the nuclear program first? We had controlled Iran's nuclear program by a diplomatic deal that we entered into with our allies with adversaries like China and Russia and Iran. President Trump tore up the deal. President Trump, after a 12 day bombing campaign by Israel over the summer, used US assets to bomb Iranian nuclear sites and claimed that the Iranian nuclear program was obliterated. That was just six months ago. So now all of a sudden, their nuclear program poses such a threat that we can't even have a debate and vote in Congress. It makes no sense with respect to the missiles they are developing, missiles which they may use at some time against the United States. There's so many hypotheticals in. And the overmatch we have is such that Iran knows this. If they were to use a missile against the United States, which they haven't, it would be a catastrophe for them.

Ailsa Chang (7:17)

Okay, but given what you know now about the situation in Iran and whatever threat they do or might pose to the US Militarily, what would you want to see the US Military do at this point? Is there anything justifiable in your mind right now?

Senator Tim Kaine (7:35)

I would say provide defense support to nations in the region, but we shouldn't commit our own children to yet another war in the Middle east when 25 years of war in the Middle east has produced so little for this country and so little for the region.

Ailsa Chang (7:48)

Okay, as we mentioned, there is a US Delegation in Geneva right now in talks with Iran. What about concerns that this debate in Congress about limiting presidential power, what about concerns that that might reduce the U.S. s leverage in those diplomatic talks? Could they?

Senator Tim Kaine (8:05)

Well, you know, a war is a good idea or a bad idea. And if it's a bad idea, I don't think you should bluff it to try to, you know, get the upper hand in a negotiation. It's a bad idea in this case, in my view. That. But, but the fact of the discussions even today is one of the reasons why, even though my resolution was ripe for voting this week, we decided to a few days out in the future, likely next week, would be preferable. Let, let that negotiation proceed. Let's do all we can to do what we did 10 years ago and find a diplomatic deal to avoid the need for war.

Ailsa Chang (8:37)

You oppose the Trump administration's claiming of powers that you believe belong to Congress constitutionally. You also oppose war, war with Iran and the repression by the regime in Iran. So then what is your larger preferred path forward here when it comes to the the regime there?

Senator Tim Kaine (8:54)

Well, look, I do think the tools that we have, the sanctions tools and others, have made a huge impact on the regime. And it's put the regime in a place. As was the case in 2016, the regime came to the table and negotiated the nuclear deal not because of the threat of war. What was real was the sanctions effect on the Iranian economy that brought them to the table. We reached that deal. But then we also maintain the ability to use sanctions against Iran for non nuclear activity missiles, you know, crackdowns on human rights. So I think we should try to return to that. Let's get a deal on the nuclear program and then use these other tools that we have to try to deal with non nuclear activities that are causing instability in the region.

Ailsa Chang (9:38)

That was Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. This episode was produced by Alejandra Marquez Hanse and Karen Zamora with audio engineering by Ted Mebane. It was edited by Patrick Jaran Watananen and Courtney. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun. It's Consider this from npr. I'm Ailsa Chang.

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