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Foreign this is crime house. On July 19, 1997, Arizona Governor Fife Symington called a press conference to address a mystifying event that was gripping his state. Four months earlier, people around Phoenix had reported mysterious lights in the sky. Ever since then, his office had been flooded with calls about about UFOs. But these reports weren't just coming from amateur astronomers or alien enthusiasts. There were real concerns that something inexplicable was happening and that the government was covering it up. Governor Symington couldn't avoid it any longer. So that morning he took his place at the podium and announced that he'd completed an investigation and found the culprit. A moment later, his chief of staff danced on stage wearing an alien costume. He held his long gray fingers up to his huge head in feigned surprise. The room erupted with laughter. The governor had pulled the stunt to calm everyone's nerves and to remind everyone out there that there's no such thing as aliens. But 10 years later, on November 9, 2007, he penned an op ed for CNN and dropped a bombsh. He believed those lights in the sky had been a ufo, and he'd seen it himself. From UFO cults and mass suicides to secret CIA experiments, presidential assassinations, and murderous doctors, these aren't just theories. They're real stories that blur the line between false fact and fiction. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and this is Conspiracy Theories, Cults, and Crimes, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Every Wednesday, I'll explore the real people at the center of the world's most shocking events and nefarious organizations. These cases are wild and I want to hear what you think at the end of each episode. Leave a comment wherever you listen. Be sure to rate, review and follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes to continue building this community together. And for early ad free access to every episode plus exclusive bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Today, I'm talking about the Phoenix Lights, which is widely considered to be one of the biggest UFO sightings in history. On March 13, 1997, hundreds, maybe even thousands of people in Arizona saw bright orbs of light floating silently in the night sky. Some even reported the outlines of an enormous, enormous aircraft. To this day, the origin of those lights remains a mystery, although there are a lot of theories and some interesting evidence that the government knows more than it's letting on. All that and more coming up. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. Everyone is telling her she dreamt it, but in the woman in cabin 10 Lo Blacklock is determined to uncover the truth in the gripping new thriller coming to Netflix October 10th. Keira Knightley plays a journalist aboard a luxury yacht who witnesses a crime she can't unsee. Adapted from Ruth Ware's best selling novel, directed by Simon Stone. Watch the Woman in Cabin 10 only on Netflix on October 10th. If you asked Dr. Lin Kitay if she believed in fate, she would answer yes, without hesitation. But it wasn't always that way. Lynn grew up in the 1950s in a suburb of North Philadelphia. By her own account, it was a normal, loving and secular household. Words like fate, destiny and God were alien to Lynn during her earliest years. The world as she knew it was solid and easily explained. However, in 1956, when Lynn was eight years old, she had an experience that changed everything. Lynn had a serious dental procedure that required sedation. But instead of falling asleep, Lynn had a strange vision. She found herself floating in space as three giant robed figures hovered above her. Somehow they knew her. They cared for her. And they had a message for Lynn. It's not your time. You must go back. There's a reason. You must go back. When Lynn woke up, she learned that she'd almost died from the anesthesia. She this profound near death experience convinced her that everything happens for a reason, that fate was real after all, and her destiny was to spread the same love she'd been shown by those mysterious figures to others. As an adult, Lynn decided the best way to accomplish her mission was to pursue a career in science education. Eventually, that pursuit led her to Phoenix, Arizona, and in 1985, 37 year old Lynn founded her own company, Health Education Learning Programs. She produced classroom videos about health issues including substance abuse prevention, AIDS awareness, and teen pregnancy. By the mid-1990s, she was living a successful, comfortable life in the suburb of Paradise Valley with her husband, Frank. It had been years since she thought about that time in the dentist chair, and whatever spiritual insights it gave her had since faded. She no longer looked to the clouds, wondered if someone was looking down at her. But that would change soon enough. On February 6, 1995, the eve of her 47th birthday, Lynn was settling in for a relaxing evening at home. She'd drawn herself a bath and was looking forward to unwinding after a busy day. Just as she was about to get in, her husband called out to her from the living room. Something about Frank's voice sounded urgent when Lynn joined him. Frank pointed out the window toward the city at something remarkable. Three amber colored spheres silently hovered in the night sky, arranged in a perfect pyramid formation they were only about 300ft away from her house, suspended roughly 50ft above the ground. The lights reminded Lynn of glowing Christmas ornaments. But there was something else about them, something that felt both soothing and utterly alien at the it was like they were calling to her. After a moment, Lynn rushed to find her camera. Frank urged her to hurry. The orbs were beginning to fade. Once she grabbed it, she frantically clicked the shutter until her film ran out. She captured what she could before the mysterious lights vanished into the darkness. When Lynn developed the film weeks later, most of her pictures were blurry and unusable. But not all of them. One photo clearly showed the amber orbs hovering over her neighbor's house. Another showed a row of four additional lights above the Phoenix skyline in the distance. Lights she hadn't even noticed. While she was focused on the three nearby spheres, Lynn framed the best photograph and hung it on her mantle. But as time passed, she began second guessing herself. How did she know the lights were anything special at all? What if it was just some kind of optical illusion? As Lynn put it, quote, after something inexplicable happens to you with no outside confirmation, you begin to doubt the experience and your perception of it. For two years, that framed photo served as the only proof of her extraordinary encounter. Lynn went back to her normal life, though she found herself occasionally glancing at that image, wondering, what if I was meant to photograph those? She started taking an interest in the unexplainable, particularly UFOs, which can be anything in the sky whose appearance or behavior can't be explained by modern science. Not just alien spaceships. These days, people are more likely to use the term unidentified aerial phenomena or unidentified anomalous phenomena. But whatever you want to call them, mysterious lights in the sky definitely qualify as one. I personally witnessed an unidentified anomalous phenomena in the night sky when I was in high school, and I'm always looking for them. If you've seen one orb shaped or otherwise, let me know in the comments. I'd love to hear what your experience was like. As for Lynn, she learned that Arizona was a hotbed of UFO activity. One of the very first UFOs to be photographed in the United States happened right in Phoenix Back in July 1940, just one day before the famous Roswell Incident and almost 48 years before Lynn's own encounter. Since then, there have been thousands of UFO sightings in the area. Reading these accounts helped Lynn realize that her own experience wasn't isolated. She wondered if these objects were visiting the Southwest with such frequency. Maybe, just maybe, they'd return to her little corner of Paradise Valley on January 22, 1997, almost two years since her first encounter. They did. It was around 8pm and Lynn had just climbed into bed for an early night. She looked out the window toward the horizon and there they were. Three amber spheres hovering motionless in a straight line. They each faded in and out, one after the other, like blinking lights on a dimmer. After about three or four minutes, they were gone. But not forever. The next evening, January 23rd, it happened again. Lynn watched as three, then six yellow lights materialized in a perfect line against South Mountain on the south side of Phoenix. But this time Lynn was ready. She grabbed her video camera and recorded 17 seconds of video. Her husband Frank wasn't as impressed. He thought the lights might have been from a blimp or something. But Lynn was determined to get answers. The next morning she called the local newspapers. No one had reported anything about the lights. So then she called Luke Air Force Base, which was the nearest military installation, and grilled a lieutenant. The officer said that whatever she saw hadn't come from their facility. After that, Lynn contacted Sky Harbor International Airport, which still serves the Phoenix area today. She told the operator her story and asked if any airport's employees had witnessed something similar. This time she was in luck. The operator transferred her to an air traffic controller who'd been on duty the night before. He told Lynn that he and his co workers had seen six lights appear out of nowhere at 8:30pm around the same time she did. They were a different color from any airplane related lights he'd seen and didn't show up on radar. Lynn asked him what he thought they were. His answer beats me. Night after night that week, the orbs kept returning. They usually appeared around the same time each evening, always in a geometric formation. To Lynn, they looked much larger and brighter than any commercial aircraft she'd ever seen. By March of 1997, Lynn had enough of simply observing and recording the lights she knew needed to understand what she was witnessing. Lynn wanted to connect with serious investigators who could help her make sense of it all. So she reached out to the Mutual UFO Network, or MUON. They were interested in learning more. And a local MUON investigator named Richard Motzer arranged to meet Lynn on March 14th. In the meantime, she kept documenting the spheres. She got more photos On March 4, 1997, and again the next night. From their position and distance, she guessed they were due south of her, somewhere over the Gila Bend Indian reservation. The light show continued on March 10, but it was over pretty quickly. Lynn could barely get out her camera before they disappeared. Then on March 14, it was time for Lynn to meet with Richard Motzer at his home office. When she arrived, he was giddy with excitement. He asked her if she'd caught the big sighting on video the night before. She. Lynn stared at him blankly. She had no idea what he was talking about. She'd gone to bed early. He told her that his phone had been ringing off the hook. Hundreds of people had already called into police stations and newsrooms across the county to report strange phenomena from the night before. And they'd seen a lot more than just a few lights hanging in the night sky. 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Learn more@WhatsApp.com Less than a week after the mass UFO sighting on March 13, 1997, 49 year old Dr. Lynn Kitay found herself in the middle of a media frenzy. Her MUFON contact, Richard Matzer, introduced Lynn to a host of reporters. They eagerly shared her photos and videos of the orbs. But Lynn didn't want to do any live interviews. She insisted on being kept anonymous. As a science educator, Lynn felt a duty to share what she'd seen. But her own understanding was limited. She knew she needed to do more research before she could offer any real insight. First, she wanted to learn more about what people had actually witnessed that night. Had they seen the same thing as her? And when did it all start? Fortunately, two ufologists named Bill Hamilton and Peter Davenport were already collecting reports and building a timeline. Bill, the assistant state director of MUFON Arizona, had captured his own footage of the incident that night while Peter monitored the situation from his post as director of the National UFO Reporting center in Washington state. Taken together, their independent efforts gave Lynn a rough idea of what happened on March 13. The sightings began around 7:55pm in Henderson, Nevada, when a young man spotted a V shaped object the size of a Boeing 747 passing overhead. It had six lights on its front end as it flew slowly and silently towards the southeast. At 8:15pm a retired police officer 200 miles away in Paulden, Arizona saw a cluster of five orange lights, four in a line and a fifth trailing behind. From there, reports cascaded in a southern line through the state. Within minutes, calls poured in from nearby Prescott Valley and Dewey. By 8:30pm the phenomena had reached the Phoenix metropolitan area, continuing south over the mountains before being spotted near Tucson around 8:45pm That's a distance of over 100 miles in 15 minutes. A plane could do that. But what people saw did not look like a plane. Apparently there were multiple objects, each with distinct characteristics that defied conventional explanation. Tim Ley saw this firsthand. He was standing in his backyard with his 10 year old son trying to get a glimpse of the Hale Bopp Comet. And if you listened to our episode on Heaven's Gate, you probably remember that the Hale Bopp Comet was a big deal in 1997. For a year and a half, people could look up and see it in the night sky without needing a telescope. It reached its closest point to Earth on March 22, just one week after the Phoenix Lights. The Heaven's Gate cult believed the comet was actually an alien spaceship sent to carry their souls off to heaven. There's no proof that was true, but it is strange considering what people witnessed. On March 13th that night, Tim Le and his son saw a massive V shaped formation of lights heading straight for them. Tim estimated the object stretched several city blocks from end to end. As it passed overhead, it seemed like it was only a hundred feet above them, but he could see stars behind it, distorted and wavy as if he were looking through water. The lights grew brighter as they approached, then gradually dimmed as the formation continued south, eventually disappearing behind South Mountain. Another report came from a psychiatrist and pilot who was driving with his family on Interstate 10 to a swimming competition. It was about 8:20pm and he saw a row of seven reddish orange globes moving towards South Mountain below Phoenix. As the lights got closer, he noticed they were in a perfect geometrical pattern and they were totally silent. Even with the moonroof open, the psychiatrist didn't hear any sound from the objects. After traveling with the family for several minutes, the formation slowly moved away. It was a surreal experience. Other people's encounters were even strangers. A woman named Stacy Rhodes Saw not just lights, but a solid triangular shape overhead that blacked out the sky. Stacy said she was driving at 80 miles per hour, but it took her almost two minutes to get clear of it. She guessed it was one or two miles from front to back. Hundreds of credible witnesses, including pilots, police officers and military personnel, all, all reported seeing the same impossible things. The most unsettling part. None of these massive objects made a sound and nobody could get close enough to inspect them, including the Air Force. Thanks to Lynn's partnership with Richard Matzer, she read multiple reports of F16 fighter jets being scrambled out of Luke Air Force Base. Their mission had been to intercept the objects, but as soon as they got close, the lights disappeared. However, this has never been confirmed by officials at the base itself. According to a Freedom of Information request, Luke Air Force Base is used mainly for training. Officially, they would never scramble any aircraft to investigate a ufo. All the confusion around the lights made Lynn's own sightings even more valuable. Unlike most of the other witnesses, she had actual proof of her claims. And upon closer examination, the object seemed to be more than just lights. Richard had blown up her photos and noticed a streak of white near the bottom of each orb. He thought these might be portholes or windows through which someone could look out, but he couldn't be sure. To get a clearer picture, Lynn needed someone with more expertise in image analysis. That person was another ufologist named Jim Diletoso. Jim first became interested in the paranormal back in the mid-1970s, helping out a UFO group called APRO. The aerial phenomenon Research Organization. Kind of a predecessor to mufon. They'd hired Jim to create a way to spot fake UFO photos by comparing them with pictures of known objects like aircraft. Since then, he'd become the go to guy for UFO image verification. Jim seemed to have a real gift for technology and lots of big companies wanted his expertise. His main job was running a high tech video production outfit called Village Labs. But his real passion was using his skills to hunt UFOs. He claimed to be able to pull information from Lynn's photos that others might miss. Lynn reached out to him in early April 1997 and they became fast friends. He told her that he believed she was special. That's why the orbs had visited her so many times. He also said that he'd found references to similar orbs in ancient texts. Whatever these things were, they'd been around for a very long time. Turning back to Lynn's photos, he examined the wave signatures of the light from from the orbs and studied the edges closely. He determined that the orbs were evenly lit from within, unlike anything man made. If he was correct, this would be huge actual proof of alien visitors over a populated area mere miles from airports and military bases. But still, the authorities denied any knowledge of the event. Their lack of answers riled up the community and angered ufologists like Jim. Finally, after nearly two months of radio silence from the military, a Phoenix city council member named Francis Barwood intervened. Barwood's office had fielded dozens of calls from constituents demanding answers about what they'd seen in the sky. And these weren't conspiracy theorists or UFO fanatics. They were teachers, pilots, police officers, and everyday residents who'd witnessed something extraordinary. On May 10, 1997, Barwood made a bold announcement that landed on the front page of the Arizona Republic. She was opening an official city investigation into what was being called the Phoenix Lights. She promised her constituents that she would discover the truth. Barwood directed her staff to collect as much evidence as they could. She told the press that she believed the lights were some kind of Air Force experiment. But she was open to other possibilities. Maybe it had been an elaborate hoax, and she didn't rule out the idea of visitors from another world. Her tentative support thrilled ufologists who felt like they finally had a champion in local government. But for Frances Barwood herself, taking this stance came at a steep personal cost. Local newspapers savagely mocked her, Even though they'd helped fuel the UFO fascination in the first place. They had no problem making fun of Barwood for her open mindedness. Editorial cartoons depicted her with a light switch on her head and a caption that read, quote, those mysterious lights over Phoenix. They're on, but no one's home. To make matters worse, Barwood quickly realized her actual authority was practically non existent. Less than two weeks after her big announcement, the Phoenix City staff sent her their findings, or lack thereof. They said they didn't have the resources or expertise to investigate anything UFO related. The commanders at Luke Air Force Base Reference refused to cooperate. A spokesperson told reporters that UFO investigations were outside their jurisdiction. No help was coming. And Barwood's investigation had hit a dead end before it even began. But even with this setback, the story kept getting bigger. On June 18, USA Today ran a full page article with the headline, arizonans say the truth about UFOs is out there. This launched the Phoenix Lights into the national eye and highlighted Francis Barwood's failure to get answers. It also quoted an Air Force lieutenant colonel who insisted that the only planes in the sky were F16s and had nothing to do with the lights. But many ufologists thought the government was hiding something. Lin Kitay was inclined to agree. She kept pressing, making calls and sending faxes to all the armed services branches she could think of. On July 2, she received a call from Captain Eileen Beans, the state public affairs officer for the Arizona army and Air National Guard. She said she was fed up with all the calls and questions about the lights. She told Lynn she'd done her own investigation and after a bit of digging, she'd found the truth about the lights. And it wasn't little green men. Her answer made a lot of sense, but to some, it sounded a lot like a cover up. On July 2, 1997, 49 year old Dr. Lin Kitay finally met someone willing to give her an official explanation for the time. First, Phoenix lights. That day, Lynn spoke to Captain Eileen Beans, a spokesperson for the Air National Guard. Captain Beans told Lynn that she'd learned about an Apache helicopter pilot who reported seeing infrared heat signatures while flying on March 13. They looked a lot like aerial flares. It wasn't conclusive, just a hint that the answer might be something more earthly than extraterrestrials. And that was the official stance taken by the government. Two and a half weeks later, on July 19, 1997, Governor Fife Symington held that famous press conference that I mentioned earlier, where his chief of staff marched on stage wearing an alien costume. His intention was to deflate some of the tension that had built up since March 13. But to people like Lynn, the stunt felt like a slap in the face, like he was mocking her and the other witnesses. However, the really big news came five days later, on July 24th. That day, Captain Beans called Lynn again, this time with another possible answer. Beans told her that on the night of March 13, visiting pilots from the Maryland Air National Guard had conducted a training exercise near Phoenix. Eight A10 Thunderbird fighter bombers had taken off from Tucson at 8:15pm and returned at 10:30. Part of their mission involved dropping high intensity illumination flares as they swooped low over the Barrie Goldwater Gunnery Range, a huge stretch of desert southwest of Phoenix. And they'd ejected their remaining flares before landing. Military flares are designed to be be incredibly bright. These were basically huge magnesium torches. They were 3ft long, weighed 30 pounds, and burned as bright as 1.8 million candles during the four to five minutes they stayed lit. For context, they'd be about as bright as a star in the sky when viewed from 70 miles away. The flares were also equipped with parachutes to slow Their descent from a distance, especially at night, they would have looked very similar to what hundreds of witnesses had described. Bright orbs of light hanging motionless in the sky. The parachutes would be nearly invisible in the darkness, creating the illusion that the lights were floating on their own. Once this information was publicized, it looked like the mystery was solved. Even Richard Matzer, Lynn's contact at mufon, was inclined to agree, but not Lynn. She'd seen these lights for years, long before the Maryland National Guard unit had shown up in Arizona. And what she'd witnessed didn't behave like flares at all. For starters, Lynn and many others reported that they didn't see any airplanes near the lights. Also, the lights they saw were amber or reddish orange, not the the white hot fire of magnesium. Jim Diletoso at Village Labs, who'd helped Lynn with her photos, had already come to this conclusion months earlier. Since then, he'd analyzed countless photos and videos of the Phoenix lights, doing what he called a spectral analysis. He was absolutely convinced the light signatures from the March 13 objects were completely different from military flares. But there was one problem with Jim's analysis. The science behind his methods was questionable at best. At one point, he was asked to explain his process, and he seemed confused about whether sound waves were the same as light. So Jim's analysis wasn't exactly the gold standard Lynn had originally thought. However, there were still plenty of other problems with the official explanation. First, there was the timeline. The Maryland Air National Guard said their planes had returned to base by 8:30pm but witnesses reported seeing strange objects until well after 10pm if the military exercise was over by 8:30, what were people seeing two hours later? Plus, the unit dropping flares was supposedly only in town for two weeks. So what about the lights Lynn saw in town January, two months before the main event, or back in 1995? Then there was the behavior of the lights themselves. Aerial flares drift as they fall, pushed around by wind currents. But many witnesses said the lights remained stationary, locked in geometric formations for minutes at a time. Lynn could attest to that herself. She'd watch the lights through her telescope without having to adjust her view, something that would be impossible if she were looking at drifting flares and she hadn't seen any smoke, parachutes, or anything similar. The location of some sightings was also disputed. While the Barry Goldwater Range was southwest of Phoenix, the most compelling witness accounts came from the north side of the city, the opposite direction from where any flares would have been visible. But most importantly, the flare theory can couldn't begin to explain sightings like Tim lay's, he'd watched a massive translucent boomerang shaped craft pass directly overhead, so close he could see stars distorted through its surface. These weren't distant lights that could be mistaken for flares. These were close encounters with solid objects that defied conventional explanation. We'll put a link to some of the photos and videos in our episode notes. So have a look and tell us if the lights look like flares to you. The flare story did convince a lot of people, but Lynn and many others didn't buy it. To them, it sounded like the government just wanted everyone to forget about it and move on. But the lights had other people plans. On Monday, January 12, 1998, ten months after the mass sighting event, the orbs came back. That night around 9:40, Lynn was on her balcony looking out at the city below, which was blanketed in a thick fog. Her husband Frank had just joined her and they were deep in conversation when all of a sudden, there they were. Two golden lights stacked on top of each other. The next day, Lynn spent an hour on the phone calling every military base in the area. She finally got through to a spokesperson from the Battle Creek Air National Guard, a unit from Michigan that was doing training exercises out of Davis Monthan Air Force Base for a few weeks. When Lynn asked if they'd been deploying flares, the spokesperson said, absolutely not. They're probably planes had been in the sky, but they'd steered clear of the fog and were back on base by 8:30pm over an hour before the orbs had appeared. It still didn't answer the question of what the lights were, but in Lynn's mind, it was irrefutable proof that they couldn't have been flares. The lights returned one more time two days later on January 14th. This time Lynn saw two lights blinking on and off. She and her neighbors had their cameras rolling as the lights arranged themselves into geometric shapes. A line, a triangle, two triangles. It was spectacular. At 9pm after the lights were gone, Lynn turned on the TV. Arizona Senator John McCain was being interviewed and the reporter asked about the lights over Phoenix. He said he'd ruled out helicopters and an alien invasion, but beyond that, he was just as mystified as everyone else. Finally, someone in power was acknowledging that there was something more to this story. Unfortunately, that didn't mean any answers were forthcoming. And in the years since, plenty of folks have come up with their own explanations, some wilder than others. One theory was that maybe the lights were military technology, like some kind of top Secret stealth plane. Specifically, a mysterious aircraft known only as Aurora. For years, aviation enthusiasts and defense analysts whispered about this legendary spy plane. If it existed, Aurora would be the Air Force's most classified A hypersonic aircraft that could fly at eight times the speed of sound. The origin of the Aurora story was an inconspicuous Air Force budget item from 1984. It allocated almost $500 million for a project with that codename. The aircraft was rumored to have a triangular frame with swept back wings, exactly like what Phoenix Lights witness Tim Lay had described. Supposedly, it could become in invisible using special stealth technologies. But it also had landing lights that could be turned on mid flight. If those lights were activated, they would look like orbs arranged in the shape of a boomerang. The Air Force repeatedly denied Aurora's existence. They tried to make it seem like it was just a code name given to the B2 bomber. However, in 2019, they copped to the lie. Without going into details, they declared they'd been operating a lightning fast stealth reconnaissance plane since 1993, four years before the Phoenix Lights. However, even if the Aurora plane is real, it wouldn't account for everything witnesses saw on March 13. It may have had a shape like Tim Ley said, but there's no way it could have been that massive. The biggest airplanes in the world are only a few hundred feet wide, and it takes a huge amount of power just to get them off the ground. Building a plane a mile wide isn't technically possible, at least not by humans. These days, the alien theory is still popular. Some have even proposed that the lights could have been from another dimension. If the answer is something beyond our world, that begs another question. What were they doing here? If you ask Lin Kitay, it's simple. Like her near death experience as a child, the lights gave Lynn a profound sense of purpose. Her spirituality blossomed, and she came to embrace parts of New Age philosophy. Lynn came to believe that the reason for mankind's existence is both simple and subtle all at once. Love. Unconditional love for one another, for our neighbors, and for the planet that sustains us. And maybe whatever was behind those lights wanted to give us that feeling. Because there's nothing like a massive UFO sighting to remind us that we are just one small speck in a vast and unknowable universe. The thought can be scary, but it's also liberating. It's a good way to remember how unbelievably lucky we are to exist on this tiny planet. And if all we get to do with our short lives is to share and experience love for our fellow humans. Maybe that's a miracle far greater than any ufo. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Vanessa Richardson and this is Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes. Come back next week. We'll decode the episode together and hear another story about the real people at the center of the world's most notorious cults, conspiracies and criminal acts. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, Rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes listening experience, subscribe to to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad free plus exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Wednesday. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Natalie Pertzovsky, Lori Marinelli, Sarah Camp, Zander Bernstein, Sheila Patterson and Michael Langsner. Thank you for listening.