Julian Walker (3:25)

All right, so as we cover RFK Jr again, we should start by saying that we and so many others have done all of the necessary debunking of his lies and duplicity about vaccines that it doesn't really seem to matter in terms of the people who are taken in by them.

Matthew Rimsky (3:41)

No.

Julian Walker (3:41)

As well as his role in the deaths of 83 mostly children under 5 years old in Samoa, etc. Now, during the hearings, his presumably well coached strategy when questioned on vaccines was to say he'd be happy to look at any of the studies that lawmakers makers were referencing about safety and efficacy as well as vaccines not being connected to autism, as if these data were some rare species he'd simply never come across. Despite leading anti vax activism group Children's Health Defense for eight years, he could claim ignorance on any of their activities because he'd resigned from their board in April of 2023 to begin his presidential run. And this led to Bernie Sanders, in this viral moment that people have probably come across trying to pin him down.

Matthew Rimsky (4:30)

You have started a group called the Children's Health Defense. You're the originator right now, as I understand it, on their website, they are.

Julian Walker (4:40)

Selling what's called onesies.

Matthew Rimsky (4:42)

These are little things, clothing for babies.

Julian Walker (4:45)

One of them is titled Unfaxed Unafraid, Next one. And they're sold for 26 bucks a piece, by the way. Next one is no vax. No problem. Now you're coming before this committee and you say you're pro vaccine. Just want to ask some questions. And yet your organization is making money selling a child's product to parents for 26 bucks, which casts fundamental doubt on the usefulness of vaccines. Can you tell us now that you will now that you are pro vaccine.

Matthew Rimsky (5:22)

That you're going to have your organization.

Julian Walker (5:24)

Take these products off the market? Senator, I have no power over that organization.

Derek Barris (5:28)

I'm not part of it.

Julian Walker (5:29)

I resigned from the board. That was just a few months ago.

Matthew Rimsky (5:32)

You founded that. You certainly have power.

Julian Walker (5:35)

You can make that. Are you supportive of this? I've had nothing to do with.

Matthew Rimsky (5:40)

Are you supportive of these onesies?

Julian Walker (5:42)

I'm supportive of vaccines.

Matthew Rimsky (5:43)

Are you supportive of this closing, which.

Julian Walker (5:46)

Is militantly anti vaccine? I am supportive of vaccines.

Derek Barris (5:51)

Well, I want good science and I want to protect.

Matthew Rimsky (5:55)

But you will not tell the organization.

Julian Walker (5:56)

You founded not to continue selling that product.

Matthew Rimsky (6:00)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Julian Walker (6:01)

My inbox actually served up a fundraising email last Friday from Children's Health Defense with the subject line, thank you, Bernie. It included the clip that we just heard, plus a message reading that these are no ordinary times. And. And they, and I'm quoting here, need your support to expose corporate and government agency corruption and hold Big Pharma accountable for its crimes against children. The childhood vaccine schedule is harming millions of children, and we're ready to take advantage of this moment to broadcast the scientific evidence to a whole new audience. So please donate today. And this is directly contradicting Bobby in that moment. You may have heard in the back and forth, he said, I want to protect the vaccine schedule right now.

Matthew Rimsky (6:47)

Derek, didn't they also just start marketing the onesies with a new tie in and poke at Sanders, too?

Derek Barris (6:52)

Yeah, they started that day. That night, Children's Health Defense published an article that led with the onesie incident. Mary Holland, the president of Children's Health Defense, was talking about it, laughing about it, and then they immediately, in a day or two later, put a banner on their website marketing the ones onesie, and you could save like 10% using the code. Bernie. Yeah, I also want to point out this is coming at the moment when there is another measles outbreak in East Texas. It's up to 15 people now, and data recently came out that in 2023, over 10 million people around the world suffered from the measles that year. But about 108,000 people died that year from the measle, the majority of whom were under five years old. So the fact that this organization is marketing a onesie with an anti vax slogan on it when actual children who get it are dying just shows you how closed off in their own bubble these people are. But how dangerous this sort of rhetoric is.

Julian Walker (7:53)

Ye. And so there's Kennedy on the biggest stage he's ever been on. And plenty of people unfamiliar with his rhetorical style will find much of what he says appealing or even reasonable. But both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren pointed out the hugely problematic financial aspects of Kennedy's anti vax activism, now translating into government. His star power turned Children's Health Defense into a massive operation. Their revenue rose from $13,000 in 2014. The year before he joined, and that's by the way, when it was still called World Mercury project to $470,000 the next year once he got involved. Their opportunistic fundraising during COVID translated into quadrupled revenue from 2020 to their 2022 high of $23.5 million raised for that organization. And Bobby as his salary took over 800,000 as a salary that year. But you know what, guys? That's peanuts compared to the estimated 3.8 million he's made from the sales of his bestseller the Real Anthony Fauci, who, by the way, a couple weeks ago had his security detail relieved of their duties by Trump personally, as well as the combined $10 million he says he made over the last year. This is in a financial disclosure from speaking fees and anti vax lawsuits, along with his children's health defense salary. It's a lot of money. I want to turn now to just the initial remarks of Kennedy's opening statement at the first hearing, because that's a microcosm of his ideology. Like all conspiracies, his case seems to hang together if you don't look too carefully. And he actually only mentions vaccines in his opening statement to say he's not anti vax, but pro safety. And then, as if winking to his posse, he shouts out the maha moms, he praises farmers, and then he shares that he's gone down on his knees and prayed to God every day that he could be put in a position to end the chronic disease epidemic. Just that. Just that little ambition. Kennedy bemoans the high cost of health care, but he blames it not on for profit medicine or exploitive insurance companies or income inequality. No, no, it's America's level of unique chronic disease, you see. Now, never mind the fact that countries like Australia and the UK have very similar rates of chronic disease, but they're still somehow able to have nationalized health care systems. And as he points out, they spend half what we do per capita. He also promises to scrutinize chemical ingredients in food as if this hasn't been done for a century by the fda and to create an honest, unbiased gold standard science. That's a direct quote at hhs, which is really rich coming from the guy who touts the efficacy of Ivermectin for Covid and denying and who also denies that HIV causes AIDS in his book that demonizes Fauci.

Derek Barris (11:02)

That point you made about the fact that other countries have similar rates and yet offer nationalized healthcare I think is so Pertinent. It reminds me of my years. I worked as a world music journalist for about 10, about a decade, and I was always fascinated by how little Americans cared about cultures outside of their own. If something becomes integrated into American society, the general trend is Americans will pick up on it. But overall, Americans have very little interest in what happens unless it serves to confirm their own agendas or what they're saying. Right now, all this data is very searchable. You can find out that a whole range of statistics that are presented by MAHA are either aren't true or they're just manipulating data, which I'm going to get to more in my section here because now they're being weaponized to do so by scientific journals. But it all really starts by the fact that as a group, Americans seem so disinterested in what happens outside of our borders. And that's coupled with the fact that, and our listenership also shows that so many people from other cultures pay really close attention to what's happening in America. And I think that sort of hurdle in, in understanding data is one of the biggest educational landmarks of why we're in the situation we're in. Not saying that people wouldn't still gravitate towards these charismatic figures, but come on, you. It didn't take you that long to find that research.

Julian Walker (12:34)

Yeah, exactly. Here are the main points. Then. I've grabbed a few of Kennedy's pitch. 70% of Americans are overweight. This is part of what Bobby claims he wants to fix. It's an epidemic, you see. Now that number sounds really bad, but it's only about 5% higher than Canada, Australia and the UK. And the thing is, these numbers are based on BMI, or body Mass index, which we've covered several times as incorrectly skewing very many healthy people who just happen to have athletic muscle mass into overweight or obese categories. It's a very blunt instrument. So there's that number two. Diabetes is 10 times more prevalent now than in the 1960s. So fact check on that. Diabetes was about 1.8% of the population back then in the 60s. Now it's about 11.6%. So if you crunch those numbers, it's more like 6.4 times higher, which is awful, but not 10 times higher.

Derek Barris (13:35)

Are you mathing again, Julian?

Julian Walker (13:37)

I know it's not my strong point, but I do know how to work a calculator, which clearly, you know, Bobby kind of just does it on the fly.

Derek Barris (13:44)

I just use it to spell boobs.

Julian Walker (13:48)

Because type 2 diabetes is highly correlated with obesity. It's an easy target for moralism. But genetics tells us that having a first degree relative with type 2 diabetes increases prevalence by two to three times the rest of the population. So you're two or three times more likely to have it if you have one of those relatives. And that goes up to having a 70% likelihood of type 2 diabetes if both of your parents have it. Number three, cancer rates amongst young people have been rising 1 to 2% a year. Now, this is true, but only for certain cancers. And scientists don't really fully understand why, because sometimes that's the case with science. And yes, they say diet and exercise may account for some of it, but so too the cultural phenomenon of people having kids later in life or not at all, which slightly it's 4% or lower, increases cancer risk in female reproductive systems. Then there's also the socioeconomic reality of disparities in access to health care, not to mention access to healthy food or the luxury of time to exercise and join a gym, which during his presidential campaign was one of Bobby's prescriptions for how to make America healthy again. Just give everyone gym memberships.

Derek Barris (15:04)

And it should be pointed out that, you know, we can talk about the different measures of what health means, but less than 20% of Americans even have a health gym membership now. Now, of course, people work out all sorts of ways. It isn't restricted to that. But he's presenting it as if the other 80% are going to be like, oh, what's this? Now I can go do this thing. And they're just going adopt that, adopt that as a practice. And having had worked in gyms for decades, it is very hard to get people to change their everyday lives. And that's just reality. So you talked about blunt instruments a moment ago. That's another one. And it's why this whole MAHA movement is a farce.

Julian Walker (15:41)

Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of gyms, right. We all know that part of the business model is that you sell people on their, on their New Year's resolution. You sell like three or four times more memberships than your gym can actually logistically handle. Because you know that people are going to maybe show up a few times and then, you know, not come back again. But you've sold them for the whole year.

Derek Barris (16:01)

Yeah, it's actually more than that. When I worked at Equinox, which the memberships were about 225 to 275amonth, the retention rate was only, only 50% of people who signed up actually went every month. And then when you go to the lower tiers, like Planet Fitness, it's more like 90% of people who pay $10 a month don't go every month. So that is the business model. So again, it's. It's just showing why there's so many holes in the argument that this would actually be effective.

Julian Walker (16:25)

Now. You know, this is. We've probably covered like the first minute of Bobby starting to give this gish gallop, right? Next he speeds up. He says neurodevelopmental disorders, Alzheimer's, mental health, diagnoses and autoimmune conditions are all rising alarmingly. And I want to take a minute to actually unpack this one because we've not really covered this angle specifically before. And the lumping together is a regular feature of the Make America Healthy Again argument. One thing these conditions do have in common is the advances made in understanding and correctly detecting them due to progress in medical screening, digital data collection, and more nuanced, sensitive diagnostic criteria. So, yes, conditions that your grandparents had never heard of are now seen as more common because of medical science. People are also, on average, living 10 years longer than they did in the 1960s. And risk of Alzheimer's doubles every five years after the age of 65. So increased Alzheimer's should be expected to some extent. The incidence of diabetes, hypertension, cardiovascular disease and cancer is more prevalent now because the percentage of the population who are over 65 has doubled since the 1960s, which is the era that Bobby keeps hearkening back to as the baby boomers hit old age. Today's birth rate, just to get a real clear sense of this, is around 1.6 per woman, but in the post war period it was four.

Matthew Rimsky (18:01)

Do you know, Julian, I haven't actually clued into this yet that the paranoia that is sort of the undercurrent of the Maha movement is really coming out perhaps of some kind of boomer recognition or premonition of their own sort of demographic base, you know, fading. I haven't made that connection before. That's kind of extraordinary to think about. And it starts to explain a lot about how especially the elders in the movement are, you know, really fanatical about taking care of themselves with all kinds of magical things.

Julian Walker (18:38)

Yeah, yeah. Now, what about exercise? Available data says that about 24% of Americans exercised regularly in the 1960s, and today about the same 24% meet recommended levels of aerobic exercise plus strength training. But an impressive 46% get sufficient aerobic exercise alone. I can't find a stat for that. In the 1960s, they probably weren't thinking about it that way because so much of this has been culturally sort of emergent. But commercial gyms, yoga studios, cycling apps, and jogging clubs may be a more contemporary phenomenon because more of the population got their exercise from physically demanding jobs in the 1960s. But you know what else was different? 42% of Americans were smokers back then. And it's a little bit controversial, but smoking has been repeatedly shown to be correlated with lower BMI due to appetite suppressant and metabolic effects. A 2015 study showed that only 30% of smokers are overweight or obese. So. So that's one way to make America healthy again, I guess. Today, less than 12% of Americans smoke because of the popularity of smoking. Lung cancer rates doubled between 1960 and 1970, and then more than doubled again over the next 10 years. Today they once again stand at half the rate we had in the 1980s.

Derek Barris (20:09)

Yeah, but I really miss flying on airplanes when people are allowed to smoke. Or when I started DJing in the early aughts when bars in New York City allowed smoking and I would leave after a certain six hour set and have to detox my clothing for three days.

Matthew Rimsky (20:22)

Yeah, or throw it away. Right?

Julian Walker (20:24)

Playing in bands in the 90s was just like, you're basically, you're drenched in smoke. So look, context matters. And free floating statistics of the kind that Kennedy uses in his rhetoric can be really deceptive. What he does is churn scary factoids together to paint a picture of American decline. And then he asserts without evidence what is causing the crisis and claims that he has the solutions which will make America healthy again. So as I watch this, as I listen to this, I'm thinking to myself, you know, this has appeal. Like, who does this appeal to? And I want to say first that these kind of fallacious arguments are not new. The entire wellness marketplace has relied on them for decades. They are arguments that I myself would have made in my 20s to people about the importance of going against the mainstream toxic sort of, you know, food and, and cleaning supplies and all the rest of it. These things appeal to both our idealism and our distrust. And this is where the Venn diagram between natural living yoga folks and bro science optimizers trends toward the conspiracism that more and more they've been sharing with Maga. Kennedy knows this when he shouts out farmers and maha moms and when he says the chronic disease epidemic is not just a medical crisis, it's a spiritual one. Yeah, I think he knows it when he remixes the fascist undertones of Make America great again into make America healthy again. Because again always idealizes a lost golden era when the natural order was still intact before it became probably never existed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, before it somehow got polluted. Right, that's, that's the idealism, if we can use that term. But to explain how we've supposedly fallen from grace requires a blanket mistrust of medical science, government agencies, public health messaging and doctors. They're lying to you. Says the anti vax pseudoscience peddler. The lack of evidence for their critiques and their cures, well that has to be a conspiracy. Who needs evidence when common sense intuitions and 1960s photos of healthy looking people at the beach seems to tell the whole story? Who can blame a busy mom who follows holistic influencers and just wants to keep her kids healthy from resonating with the messaging of Maha. Which you know, for some reason CNN at times is happy to launder so too the fit and productive dad who tracks his macros, drinks his greens and takes advice from Huberman and Atiya.

Matthew Rimsky (23:05)

Yeah, I never know about that. Like how much time is being spent in the man cave instead of like with the damn cheese.

Julian Walker (23:13)

But a self responsible libertarian diet and lifestyle are not magic bullets against genetics, aging and death. And they're no substitute for vaccination, for cancer screenings, for getting the best medical care possible when necessary. Even if the current science is imperfect. So lastly to your point, Derek, when exactly was this golden age of perfect health that we're going to return to once again? Like 200 years ago, life expectancy was between 30 and 40 and infant mortality was 25%. Guys, the three of us are around 50. Just 100 years ago, we'd all on average be getting ready to die pretty soon. Here at least one of us would be gone already. Early childhood death 100 years ago. Terrible. Over the last 50 years, vaccines are estimated to have reduced infant mortality globally by 40%. The truth is that in western countries we've actually been living through as close to a golden age of health that has ever existed. The Maha agenda will erode those advances, especially for kids. Hey, it's Julian and I legit love factor meals. Which is why I'm happy to read this spot. Are you ready to optimize your nutrition this year Factor has Chef made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. And guess what? They're really tasty too. They're dietitian approved, ready to heat and eat in two minutes. It's super convenient. There's 40 options across eight dietary preferences. On the menu each week. It's easy to pick meals tailored to your goals. It actually really is. The website and the app are super intuitive and you can make those changes really easily. You can choose from preferences like Calorie Smart, Protein plus or Keto. So eat smart with factor get started at Factor Meals.com conspirituality50 off and use code conspirituality50 off to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's code conspirituality50 off at Factor Meals.com 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box as.

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Derek Barris (26:33)

All right, so since this is essentially a speculative episode Given that RFK Jr isn't installed yet, as Secretary of Health and Human Services, I'm going to focus on one real potential issue that we're facing and kind of trace out how it's going to happen. Last week, epidemiologist Elizabeth Jacobs great follow. She posted her predictions of what happens when RFK Jr is confirmed on her blue sky handle.

Julian Walker (27:01)

By 2026 he will fake or manipulate data to allegedly show that vaccines cause.

Matthew Rimsky (27:07)

Autism or something else 2026 as well. Vaccination rates will continue to plummet.

Julian Walker (27:12)

2027-28 Outbreaks of VPDs Vaccine preventable diseases will increase and infants and children will die by 2028.

Matthew Rimsky (27:23)

Some states won't require vaccines for school attendance at all. Idaho is already close with their joke of an exception form. They will blame scientists and healthcare workers for mistrust in vaccines and the damage will continue.

Derek Barris (27:37)

So what's the roadmap here? So later in the thread, Jacobs notes that most of the damage from what's about to happen won't be felt until the next administration is installed in 2029. Of course, if there is a next one, given Trump's not so secret musings about running for a third term or just staying in power. I don't know if you guys caught it. He was interviewed on Fox the other day and they said, do you think J.D. vance will be ready in 2028? Trump's like, no, no.

Matthew Rimsky (28:03)

Right.

Derek Barris (28:04)

So Jacobs makes an important point. Public health isn't about immediate results. And the damage that his leadership is likely to do will have a very long tail. So. So, okay, I'm going to unpack this one part. Faking or manipulating data, as we've kind of established, Julian, you already did. Maha is a ripoff of maga. It pulls from the same playbook. Let's give an example. There's been a sentiment that no one has been looking into chronic diseases among Maha acolytes who believe that RFK Jr. Is the first person ever to think that shit up. Yeah, this tracks with. Look at what Elon Musk is doing with agency budgets. Right. I see on Twitter all the time this notion that no one knows where all this money is really going when the very definition of a bureaucracy is accounting. Both of the situations are really about marketing, not reality. And we see just how effective conservative media and right wing social media propaganda has been. The NIH spends tens of billions of dollars every year researching chronic diseases already. But you're not going to hear about that from Maha because it's the uncle.

Matthew Rimsky (29:10)

Fication of the public. It's like the person just saying, oh, I don't know where that money is going. Nobody knows. Nobody know because.

Julian Walker (29:18)

Because you don't.

Matthew Rimsky (29:19)

You wouldn't know if. Unless you were a specialist, unless you were actually looking at it directly. It's all corrupt.

Julian Walker (29:24)

It's all, it's all.

Matthew Rimsky (29:25)

It must all be corrupt. It's incredible. Yeah.

Derek Barris (29:27)

And amazingly, Musk and Doge is pulling all of the data which says where it's all going. So if no one knows, how is he going to magically figure it out when it's already there? So all of this is checkable, which is always the point. But you have to know where to look. And right wing media has for generations manipulated stories. Right. For example, I just said Doge, the right calls that an agency, but it is not an agency. It works to give Musk and his team an air of legitimacy as they ransack all of our data. And this same sort of legitimacy is essential to Maha. Here's one way that's going to work. Recently a number of people sent me a study in quotes showing how vaccines cause autism. It was published in the very legitimate sounding journal Science, Public Health Policy and the Law. Here's the issue. It's not a journal, it's a blog page. And it was founded. It's founded by a team that has all connections with Children's Health Defense. The study itself is riddled with errors, including the fact that it's an observational study, it's based entirely on Medicare billing, and I wish I was kidding with this next one. The study does not even reference whether or not the people in the study were vaccinated, which is the entire supposed premise of it. I'm not in debunking mode right now, so I'll link to an article by Dr. Andrea Love and she worked with a guest epidemiologist on this. It breaks down all of the problems with the study. If this study rings a bell, it's because it's the same one that RFK Jr. Referenced in his confirmation hearings. And despite him saying he's no longer involved with Children's Health Defense, he certainly seems to continue to read their website because they posted an article with the headline Jaw Dropping Study Finds vaccinated children have 170% higher risk of Autism Based on that flawed study and then not actually a journal that their contributors run. God, then it gets pumped through right wing social media and right wing media and none of that actually matters. Now. The Children's Health Defense Journal isn't the only one. Walker Bragman has been doing fantastic work and I believe he just became a father. So congratulations. He reported last week in his blog Important Context. The anti vax organization Brownstone Brownstone Institute has what it calls a journal on its website. And then he also talked about another one, which is the Real Clear foundation who run like Real Clear Politics and Real Clear Science. They've tracked far right and libertarian over recent years and they launched their own journal that's being run by a rogues gallery of anti vaxxers and Covid contrarians. So you've got Great Barrington Declaration co author Martin Koldorff, who served as the scientific director of brownstone in 2022. You have another co author Jay Bhattacharya, who's been tapped by Trump to run the nih. You have Marty Macary, who is set to run the fda. Now, Macary, we've pointed out before, he was behind a study that claimed medical errors are the third leading cause of a death in America. And that has been shown to be false, but it's been repeated endlessly, for example, during the Maha congressional show trial last fall. All of these figures I just mentioned are friends with RFK Jr and given all of their history of manipulating data, we should be very concerned about the integrity of these scientific journals and how they're going to be weaponized. So everything is already in place for Elizabeth Jacobs prophecy. For years, low quality pay to play journals have allowed such manipulation to occur. So this isn't new. The difference is MAHA now has their own journals at their disposal. So doing what they want with the data is not going to be hard. Now imagine this sort of wholesale manipulation across all health agencies. So I've mentioned a few of the figures. We also have Surgeon General nominee Janet Neshawait and you have the CMS administrator nominee, Dr. Oz, both of whom sell supplements.

Matthew Rimsky (33:34)

Oh my God.

Derek Barris (33:35)

None of these nominees that I've mentioned are qualified to run these agencies that they're being installed at. But each one stands to personally profit from decisions that could be made by the agencies they're going to run. Kind of funny how that works.

Matthew Rimsky (33:49)

I have a question, Derek, which is there's an awful lot of effort that is being put into creating these kind of fake journals, almost like shell companies, to make it seem like there's some science going on. How long are they going to put up with the necessity, the facade of having to do that? It would seem that after a while nobody's really going to care. And the actual real scientists who have had their funding cut off are going to have to find other job and do their own subsistence farming or whatever. Like it's, it's. I wonder how long the fake journal racket is going to keep up. Or will it only be an instrument for selling their own supplements?

Derek Barris (34:30)

My guess is that it's going to increase because look at what you just laid out. The funding is being cut off. Those researchers and scientists, the credible ones, are already looking for other jobs. They're being forced into private industry because that's where the money is in biotech.

Matthew Rimsky (34:45)

Yeah.

Derek Barris (34:46)

So they're going to be working for companies who want very specific results on, on, on sort of products and pharmaceuticals that they can monetize. And then on the public level, on the governance level, you have the people running it who are involved with these fake journals. So I think it's going to Run for a long time.

Julian Walker (35:04)

Yeah. And the fake journals have been going on for, for a long time. This is not a new phenomenon. And they're, they're typically outgrowths of specific little think tanks and, and organizations that have a very specific agenda. And so, yeah, they're well funded. The funding is going away for the legit stuff.

Matthew Rimsky (35:22)

Yeah. I guess the paradox here is that they're useful to the extent that they have to fool people. You know, the pseudo journal has to fool somebody and at a certain point there isn't going to be anybody left to be fooled.

Julian Walker (35:33)

Well, yeah, I think you're right. But also the scientists and researchers involved in those journals, they're, they're sincere. They believe they're doing legitimate work trying to show their alternative hypotheses about how science and diagnosis and prescription should work.

Matthew Rimsky (35:53)

Yeah, yeah. I mean my, my, I guess my confusion is based on a kind of cynicism that. Yeah, you know, they're, they're, they're grifting and that's not necessarily true.

Julian Walker (36:01)

It's bland. I think it's a blend. But that's me speculating.

Derek Barris (36:03)

And I want to point out, Julian, that pseudo journals have existed for a while. One, one discipline that they've existed while. For a while. Or acupuncture, for example.

Julian Walker (36:12)

Yep.

Derek Barris (36:13)

But, but this specific one is really an outgrowth of COVID So I said pay to play journals. Those are more like. Those are people who are just trying to make money. So they don't give a. What the content is. They're going to publish anything that's been weaponized for a long time. But the, these three that I'm mentioning are all new. And this really seems to be an outgrowth of the COVID contrarian market. Yeah, So I mentioned all of the people who stand a profit. Of course, RFK Jr. Is in that bucket if he so chooses. As part of the vetting process for his role, he had to submit. Submit his financial disclosures to Congress. You already brought up he made $10 million last year for a range of anti vax activity. He also disclosed that his presidential campaign is still $1.5 million in debt. That he did on his email list, which I'm on. And it also came out that he's 1.2 million in credit card debt. Or I should be specific, his credit card debt has ranged between $610,001.2 million over the last couple years. So, so overall we should be very concerned about people who can't handle their own finances being put into positions where they'll be able to profit.

Matthew Rimsky (37:18)

Derek, the rich are not like you and I. They are not like you and I. I mean, seriously, though, this is not somebody who has ever had to pay anything, probably back. This is not somebody who's had to have any kind of, you know, sort of reality basis within a financial world. If you think about, like, the network of trust funds and inheritances and, like, just how much money floats around this whole set. Yeah. It must be very, very disconcerting, actually, to now be in a position of some kind of responsibility where you have to keep track of things. But maybe he won't. Yeah.

Julian Walker (37:50)

And to your point, he's motivated to enrich himself to get out of that debt, right?

Derek Barris (37:54)

Yeah. I can't imagine. I've been out of credit card debt for 15 years. It took me a while to dig out of that hole, and I work really hard to stay out of it. And I know. I know that my wife and I were one financial medical emergency to happen. I could fall right back in at any time. Time. And that's really a precarious place to be, and it sucks. So, what. How. How do you go a million dollars in credit card debt? I don't know.

Matthew Rimsky (38:20)

By not caring. By not giving shit. You don't care. You don't expect to pay it back. Like, what. What kind of accountability exists within this particular class of people? What. You know, when does. When does anybody have to be responsible for anything?

Derek Barris (38:32)

So if he so chooses, Kennedy will be able to monetize, for example, his trademark around Maha, which, in the most ironic of twists, includes his ability to market vaccines. That is a very specific thing you have to write into an llc. He'll also be able to monetize if he wants, supplements, vitamins, essential oils, and cryptocurrency, because they were all part of that llc. Now, he did transfer ownership of it to Dell Bigtree in December, who is very.

Matthew Rimsky (38:59)

Dale.

Derek Barris (39:01)

I kind of feel, just like he says, I'm not involved with children's health defense anymore. I kind of feel like this is it, since Maha is his term.

Matthew Rimsky (39:08)

No, no. Him and Dell have great boundaries. They're a great huge firewall between him and Dell Bigtree.

Julian Walker (39:14)

I just want to flag how holistic this is, that he's got this Maha thing trademarked, and it's so that he can sell, you know, probably the good vaccines that synergize really well with the supplements and the essential oils that you can. That you can use as a cryptocurrency token or something.

Derek Barris (39:29)

You're not Joking. You're not joking? Because that's all part, they'll figure it out later. But they own the, the, the owner, they own it now. They own the trade.

Matthew Rimsky (39:37)

Yeah. Chakra vaccines, colors, different colors in the syringes.

Julian Walker (39:40)

Yeah. And, and I just want to say here too, that, that finding out, you know, I, I, I just saw stuff about this this morning. Maybe it's been floating around for a while that that part of what, you know, Elon is gutting right now is the consumer protection agency. Right, right. And that this relates directly to, to some of Elon's plans in terms of person to tech stuff that he's developing. And to me, this, this probably fits right in with that.

Derek Barris (40:06)

And they're already working on an executive order. It might have even passed by now. Where the cap that they put on credit card, you know, or sorry, like overdraft fees and stuff, they're getting rid of that and, and credit card interest rates, they're getting rid of that because they're so people friendly. So all of this is why Maha perfectly mirrors maga. It appears to be a power and profit guy. Grab grab all the way down the line to close up. At the time of recording, a federal judge has told the administration to resume NIH payments. Yet there have been some reports that payments have not resumed. I have not seen RFK Jr or any MAHA person criticize this fact. In fact, Bobby sent out his own fundraising emails to pay off his campaign debt while cheer lie cheerleading this freeze because bad bureaucracies was how he framed it. Now I discuss what these freezes mean in depth. Depth during last week's episode. So I'm not going to revisit here, but I'm going to keep asking the same question. How does any of this make America healthy again? Or at all?

Julian Walker (41:18)

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Matthew Rimsky (41:25)

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Matthew Rimsky (41:35)

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Julian Walker (41:42)

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Matthew Rimsky (41:59)

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Julian Walker (42:03)

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Matthew Rimsky (42:06)

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Derek Barris (42:23)

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Julian Walker (42:29)

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Matthew Rimsky (42:31)

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Julian Walker (42:32)

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Julian Walker (42:48)

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Matthew Rimsky (44:30)

Rounding up, I kind of want to bring a level of analysis that takes it as a given that RFK Jr is not sitting in that chair as a good faith actor in the public health realm.

Derek Barris (44:41)

How dare you.

Matthew Rimsky (44:41)

Committed to facts and evidence. Yeah, I know. I'm going to speculate here that he's actually there now. This is whether he knows it or not, because his life path and his psychology have actually set him up to play an effective role in the domestic affairs of what appears to be an emergent fascist regime. And just so we're all on the same page, we throw this word around a lot. I'm starting to default to this incredibly compressed and crystalline definition from Robert Paxton. Paxton, the Anatomy of Fascism. Just for reference, he describes fascism in his 2004 book as quote, a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood, and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity in which a mass based party of committed nationalist militants working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, like every phrase here is perfect, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints, goals of internal cleansing and external expansion. So are we there? We've got unitary executive theory on the go. Staff purges, oligarchic leadership, blatant and constant lying and confirmation hearings and intimidated media executive orders, you know, Guantanamo reopening, you know, pardoning and deputizing fascist street gangs. In my view, all of this tracks pretty much with the history we now have of how fascist regimes seize power not through revolution, but through the failure of cowardly and self contradictory liberal institutions and also bloodlessly through technical coups, as we have with like Trotsky in 1917. But what do you guys think? Is this an okay place to start?

Julian Walker (46:39)

Yeah, absolutely. And as Paxton also points out, they typically come to power through almost like a Trojan horse kind of phenomenon with conservative parties or legitimate right wing parties that they take over from the inside. Yeah, and I think it's absolutely right. And I think every day we inch a little bit closer. Ignoring the courts, I think is going to be a major line that gets crossed. And for me there's a certain level of state violence directed to internally that will be the, the, the final nail in the coffin to say, yep, we're really there.

Derek Barris (47:16)

I'm also going to point out that, you know, we've been talking about the unitary executive theory for a while and Matthew and I, you, you and I had a discussion offline about expertise and sometimes how that can blind you to the reality of what's happening. I think that's important here because as much as I champion experts and I think it's important you can be too boxed in by what these frameworks offer. And so, for example, poli sci, or political history. Sorry, Professor. Kind of rebutted something I was saying on social media about, well, this is what the courts are for. And I'm like, yes, ideal, ideally. But as has been pointed out, the courts do not. Do not have the ability to physically enforce anything that they're putting forward. That falls under the Department of Justice, which now falls under Pete Hegset. So you're in a situation. We are in unprecedented territory. And every morning as I listen to the news, news, I hear them inching closer to being like, wow, this could really be a problem. And it's like, when are you going to realize, like, they will probably not get everything through, but they're going to get a lot. And they are already showing signs of ignoring the orders, and that is only going to get worse.

Julian Walker (48:25)

And one of the things that really jumped out at me, which I think flew under the radar for a lot of people, is the revoking of the executive order, I believe it was, that had to do with it being illegal to work in at certain levels of government while also operating as a foreign agent.

Matthew Rimsky (48:43)

Oh, sure.

Julian Walker (48:43)

This is the exact thing that Mike Flynn and Paul Manafort were charged with. And, you know, Manafort did jail time. Flynn was. Was pardoned or commuted or whatever the hell they did, so that both of those guys ended up getting off. Now, that's not even legal. So it extends in so many different directions. The fact that you've legalized this particular form of grift and, you know, being this vulnerable to the influence of malign countries like. Like Russia, it's. It's incredible.

Matthew Rimsky (49:17)

The thing that you're saying about expertise potentially being blindering. Derek comes up when I see somebody like, maybe you guys know Corey Robin, who's the really smart historian of American conservatism? He's not an expert in fascism, but, you know, he's on Facebook book, in my opinion, putting his foot in it by saying that MAGA can't really be fascist because they're too stupid, they're too incompetent, as if Hitler or Mussolini were geniuses to do what they did. Not pathological overreachers who, like, burned everything around them, including themselves. Like, competence is not part of the definition of fascism. They are extremely wasteful, unbalanced, generally unhinged people, and they win despite themselves. But I think that often what we're seeing in this, almost a resistance to just name what's in front of us, is that, like, the Argument from incompetence can be a way for certain folks to save face and prop up this fiction, I would say, of American exceptionalism, like, this could never happen here. We're not a shithole country. We still have protections, we still have courts. All of those things are moderately true. But you can feel the defensiveness. No, no, no, it's not happening. It's not yet. No, no, we still have our power. That sort of thing. It's a very.

Julian Walker (50:33)

Time can never happen here because our population is too stupid. That's an interesting.

Matthew Rimsky (50:38)

Well, well, no, I, I think Robin is saying, like the, the, the actual, the, the inner circle is too incompetent. Which, yeah, it's, that's not, that's not a factor. They, they don't have to be competent, they just have to be volatile. But I, I'm thinking about, like Kennedy in these terms because, you know, the entire inward facing apparatus of Trump's cabinet at this point is about purging internal threats of disease and perversion. Like, this is a very strong theme in Project 2025. The enemy within is wokeism. It's the trans agenda, it's queerness in the military, it's the pseudo religion of climate activism. And you know, to a large extent, that is the rhetoric that Musk through Doge is using to do his alleged purge of waste and corruption. And then we have, like, Kash Patel on the verge of being confirmed as, you know, FBI head who's going to purge the FBI and apparently has already started of its cabal and its elites, which of course are responsible for investigating the deep state itself. And so it's very clear to me that if we are talking about an emergent fascist regime that RFK Jr fits like, like, you know, hand in glove within the realm of this inner purification theme rooted in the return to nature and atavistic beliefs like make America great again and make America healthy again. I mean, you both are referencing this kind of romantic appeal to an unknown past, but the imagery is so potent, it's powerful and, and Kennedy embodies it even in his dress, right? Like you can actually see him. I'm imagining Norman Rockwell painting his whole family and sticking it on the wall on the Kennedy compound in Hyannisport, and, you know, his endless stories of playing football with his brothers and cousins on the great manor lawn in this time when chronic disease didn't exist and everything else that you guys have already covered. So, you know, it's like, like so many things fit together with him to create this kind of perfect Internal disciplinarian force. And I think that two related takeaways that I have when I look back through, you know, my understanding of fascist history is that we know that fascist healthism hides things. So a couple of points here. We have no idea what cocktail of shit is keeping Trump walking. We have no idea how much Brian Johnson type bs. You know, Kennedy himself is doing beyond hrt, but he also looks. There was a viral video about him taking a shitload of methylene blue. I think you know something about that, Derek.

Derek Barris (53:40)

It fascinates me. I looked into methylene blue for research in my book on psychedelic therapy, and it's considered the first fully synthetic drug ever used in medicine dating back to 1876. So to see Mr. Naturalist Bobby drop it into his cup is pretty mind numbing.

Matthew Rimsky (53:56)

No, no, no, no, man. That's the OG all natural synthetic stuff. It's totally fine. It was invented before EMFs, critical race theory and Smurfs and all of that.

Julian Walker (54:06)

It's the color of the sky, right?

Derek Barris (54:08)

Be careful there. Colloidal silver is the smurf medicine. That's what turns you blue. Blue is something else. But it actually used to be used to dye textiles in factories, and later it was used to stain pathogens.

Matthew Rimsky (54:20)

Is it for his now? Is that what he's doing? Like, if you take it in your mouth, does it come out? Does it come out in your genes?

Derek Barris (54:26)

Okay, as above, so below, as inside, outside. It's all one. It's all one here, Matthew. So it was first used to treat malaria in 1891. And it does, to be fair, have legitimate uses. Like, for example, you can treat tropical fish for fungal infections with methyl and blue. What.

Julian Walker (54:46)

What about worms in your brain? Will they treat the worms in your brain. Brain for their infections?

Derek Barris (54:50)

It is actually used to treat the freshness of milk. That is true. So maybe Bobby was just chasing his raw milk smoothie with the methyl and blue. We didn't see the whole video. We're not. We're not being privy to everything.

Julian Walker (55:02)

Science, science.

Derek Barris (55:04)

It somehow made its way into wellness lore where it's supposed to be a mitochondrial optimizer. It also is purported to help improve cognitive function. None of these have been shown to be true. But we do have some science on what using it for fitness could lead to. You can overdose on it because it is toxic. Depending on dose size, it can also cause circulatory and respiratory issues. And this is an interesting one because bobby rails against SSRIs and mental health interventions, pharmaceutical interventions. If you are taking an SSRI and you take methyl in blue, it could result in serotonin toxicity and it could easily. It could even cause anaphylactic shock.

Julian Walker (55:46)

Sounds like it's a preventative for school shootings then. Oh, right. All right, 3D chess.

Derek Barris (55:51)

We need to get you a contract with Maha Julian.

Matthew Rimsky (55:55)

And he's taking a lot of it because that was like a 3 inch dropper full. Like, I don't know what the dosages are supposed to be, but it was a lot. And that water was blue. Okay. So we also know historically that fascist medicine is about appearances. While they advocate for the naturalist fallacy, you know, in terms of the public audience, the inner circle is always hiding its actual health data, and it always has access to extreme or quack substances, and it's always using them not only to treat real ailments, but to pursue mystical or superhuman powers. So Dr. Theodore Morel is the sort of key figure here. He was Hitler's personal physician. One of his top responsibilities was to load him up with methamphetamine laced drugs, which he often labeled as vitamins or harmless stimulants. He kept detailed records of his treatments, but he also concealed the full extent of Hitler's declining health, including symptoms consistent with Parkinson's disease and other ailments. Now, the same thing happens with Mussolini, although we have less documentation. But Il Duce had syphilis, he was a big cocaine user, and he had chronic explosive D, and very few people knew the extent of his ailments. Now, I can't make this case without noting that Biden's inner circle also concealed its decline. So I think this just happens with leaders in general. But there's some, like, notable fascist distinctions here that I'm going to go farther with.

Derek Barris (57:29)

You just mentioned, you know, the extreme quack substances compared to actual health data. And I want to point out something that has been big on the MAHA circuit, which is saying in Europe, you can only use 400 food ingredients. In America it's over 10,000. Why is that it's such a perfect test case for the manipulation of data? Because what they do is they're taking a number, the over 10,000 number, and they're including things like packaging. Oh, so they're including a broader category.

Matthew Rimsky (57:56)

Right.

Derek Barris (57:56)

Of what is involved in the entire supply chain of food. Whereas in Europe, they're only taking a number of specific food ingredients, but they're putting them side by side to say, look at how much more we have in our food. When you're talking about boxes and plastic wrapping and like that. So it is. It is a concept constant problem with how they take data and just warp it, and then the people who follow them just take it wholesale.

Matthew Rimsky (58:24)

Well, and it serves that everything has been corrupted with added things that don't belong there. Right. Like everything is polluted. Right. Okay, so the next main point is that we know from history, and this is. This is not. This is very far away from concealing Biden's cognitive decline and whatever we know from history that fascist healthism is always hypocritical and always projective. So Hitler reached a peak in health contradiction when he began to develop symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Degenerative nervous disorder that causes tremors and a shuffling gait, as you know, which.

Julian Walker (59:02)

Is helped by methamphetamine, by the way.

Matthew Rimsky (59:04)

Right, well, and that's. And Dr. Morel knows that he relied on his doctor and inner circle to hide this from the public. However, just years before, the genetic health court that carried out his eugenics program had specifically singled out people with Parkinson's to be murdered because they were defective. The Reich ultimately murdered 300,000 disabled people. Mussolini had chronic bowel complaints, but he would order his black shirts to force political opponents to swallow castor oil up to a liter at a time as a form of torture. Torture. In terms of sexual purity and pollution, Hitler's entire inner circle were philanderers. Mussolini had sex with or raped thousands of women. By his own account. He kept extensive notebooks. Sound familiar? On one hand, this is just misogyny and patriarchy. No politics are needed. I mean, Fidel Castro does the same thing, but with the fascists, there's an additional drive to cover up and to displace. As in, let's fret about the queer agenda, the trans agenda. Let's be the arbiters of sexual and gender morality. Let's make everyone else's lives sexually sick. Let's say AIDS is not caused by hiv, but actually the moral failures of gay men. So from where I stand, the insistence of righteousness and purity seems to be intensified by the magnitude of the lie. And I would say that, like the worse the claims get, the allegations get against people like Trump, Hegseth, Gates, Musk and Kennedy. I think the more aggressive they will be about the spectacle of righteousness and punishing alleged perverts.

Julian Walker (60:42)

Yeah, I want to add here too, that's all very, very interesting and very on point, Matthew, that when I see Kennedy rising to this position of power, most likely, I think of Trofim Lysenko. I think of in the Soviet era, how this man, for almost 20 years was in charge of farming, agriculture. He used completely discredited genetic pseudoscience. Yeah, and. And it resulted in the deaths of at least 40 million people across the Soviet Union and, and China as a result of getting into a position where completely. A completely false calamitous take on the science of food production was taken as the party line and anyone who objected to him was thrown into jail. Scientists, agriculturalists, you know, wasted away in jail.

Matthew Rimsky (61:35)

Is there a silver lining? Historians pretty much agree that even without decisive military pressure, the Nazis probably could not have maintained power for long because for the most part, fascist regimes are high on heat and pain and they're low on fuel and sustainability. They are unstable. They are overly dependent on single charismatic leaders who inevitably buckle under pressure and fend off off succession planning. I mean, Trump saying, no, Vance isn't going to be ready is pretty funny there. You know, it's like, come on, dude, are you going to make it through this term? Their populist promises, which are standard throughout campaigning, at least to the point where they take over power, they just can't be kept by the oligarchic management because there's a disconnect there that the oligarchs don't give a shit in the end. And then the contradictions between the performance of national health and the reality of conditions become intolerable. And then the contradictions between the spectacle of personal leader health and the reality of their pathologies become just impossible to conceal. So, you know, we don't know exactly when this confirmation will happen. I think there's a whiskers chance that he misses it, but it's likely by the time we meet next week, guys, that he's going to be our secretary and, and, you know, he's attained this power. But we know that from the reporting on his abandoned presidential campaign that he's a chaotic mess as an administrator. You know, the $1.2 million in credit card debt aside, you know, it seems like it's very difficult to get things done or for people to have, like, coherent information inside that campaign. So he got to the position by the skin of his teeth, which will soon be turning blue. And he's 71, so, you know, how long can it last?