245: Raw Dogging Wellness [feat Mallory DeMille]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Conspirituality Episode 245: "Raw Dogging Wellness" featuring Mallory DeMille

Introduction

In Episode 245 of the Conspirituality podcast, titled "Raw Dogging Wellness," hosts Derek Barris, Matthew Rimsky, Julian Walker, and guest Mallory DeMille delve into the burgeoning trend of raw diets within the wellness community. This episode critically examines the promotion of raw milk, raw meat, and raw water by influencers, highlighting the pseudoscientific claims and potential health risks associated with these practices. The discussion also explores the intersection of raw wellness trends with broader conspiratorial and spiritual movements.

---

1. The Rise of Raw Wellness Trends

The episode opens with Mallory DeMille showcasing her raw diet, emphasizing unprocessed and uncooked foods. She lists her daily consumption of raw T-bone steak, raw bison liver, raw milk, and other raw products, presenting them as natural and health-promoting.

Mallory DeMille [02:12]: "Today I had a raw T bone steak with raw bison, bone marrow, raw bison liver and raw milk."

The hosts introduce the central theme: the increasing advocacy for raw diets as a means to achieve better health, often intertwined with conspiracy theories and distrust of mainstream health guidelines.

---

2. Raw Milk Advocacy and Conspiratorial Ties

Mallory discusses the surge in raw milk promotion, particularly following RFK Jr.'s political nomination. Influencers like Dave Asprey are mentioned for their supportive stance on raw milk, despite lacking credible scientific backing.

Mallory DeMille [03:24]: "In my wellness watching, I've seen an influx in the promotion of All Things Raw, but definitely more intensely since RFK Jr's nomination back in November."

Derek Barris critically analyzes the scientific validity of studies cited by raw milk proponents, pointing out methodological flaws and biases.

Derek Barris [11:14]: "One of them relied on parental reports of milk consumption, which is subject to recall bias because they didn't actually keep records, which is what they do in clinical science."

Mallory shares her background in dairy farming, reinforcing the importance of pasteurization to prevent bacterial infections, contradicting the raw milk narrative.

---

3. Influencers and Pseudoscientific Claims

The discussion moves to influential figures like Paul Saladino, who downplay the risks of raw milk even amidst outbreaks like bird flu. The hosts emphasize the dangers of relying on anecdotal evidence over scientific research.

Julian Walker [13:24]: "It's so easy to find out that the health benefits of raw milk that they claim are completely unfounded, while the dangers are potentially very severe."

Mallory highlights the skewed presentation of raw milk benefits versus risks on platforms like TikTok, where benefits are presented as absolute truths, minimizing potential dangers.

Mallory DeMille [15:56]: "But when searching raw milk on TikTok... benefits are framed as absolute, it's just listed as benefits, but the risks are framed as potential, making them seem less likely."

---

4. The Evolution of Raw Food Movements

Derek Barris provides a historical context, tracing the raw food movement back to the 19th century and its ties to natural health retreats and influential figures like John Harvey Kellogg. The episode explores how raw foodism has evolved, particularly within the back-to-the-land and modern wellness movements.

Derek Barris [22:08]: "Swiss physician Maximilian Oscar Bercher Benner is credited with kicking off the modern raw food movement... He also championed the benefits of sunbathing, cold showers."

Julian Walker adds that terms like "superfoods" have been overused and revived in modern marketing strategies, aligning raw food trends with contemporary wellness branding.

---

5. Raw Water: A New Frontier in Wellness Marketing

Mallory introduces the concept of raw water, examining how it's marketed as pristine and untouched, despite being repackaged tap water. The hosts dissect the marketing tactics and lack of regulation surrounding raw water products.

Mallory DeMille [30:40]: "I know there needed to be a better option. So I did my research and came across Alive Waters."

Julian Walker underscores the problematic nature of such marketing, where beauty and purity are emphasized over factual accuracy.

Julian Walker [31:50]: "But I'm just playing. It was the whole structured water scam... alkaline water was closely tied to those Kangen water MLM products."

Derek Barris cites a microbiologist’s perspective on the safety concerns of raw water, contrasting it with the regulated safety of tap water.

Derek Barris [38:34]: "The Environmental Protection Agency routinely screens for nearly 100 contaminants to ensure tap water is safe. In contrast, raw water remains untested, unregulated and untreated."

---

6. Raw Meat and Its Dangers

The conversation shifts to raw meat consumption, with Matthew Rimsky and Mallory DeMille sharing personal anecdotes about the perceived benefits of raw meat diets. The hosts counter these claims by explaining the scientific consensus on the need for cooking meat to eliminate harmful bacteria.

Matthew Rimsky [48:10]: "But regardless of what he's feeding you, it's still going to give you diarrhea."

Derek Barris emphasizes the risks of foodborne illnesses like E. coli and the lack of substantial health benefits from raw meat diets.

Derek Barris [52:31]: "Cooking meat does degrade certain heat-sensitive nutrients, but you're talking about B vitamins that are widely available elsewhere."

---

7. Case Studies of Influential Raw Dieters

The episode examines specific influencers such as Christian Van Camp and Scott Lives, who advocate for raw dieting despite evident health risks. Mallory DeMille criticizes their methods and the lack of scientific backing, highlighting the disconnect between influencer claims and medical advice.

Mallory DeMille [49:00]: "Christian is the perfect case study for the problematic wellness influencer. He's incredibly conspiratorial... shares wildly false and dangerous health information."

Julian Walker discusses the cultural and emotional factors that make individuals susceptible to adopting and promoting such pseudoscientific practices.

Julian Walker [47:50]: "It's just a matter of risk assessment when pitching products and services like shooting fish in a barrel for these people."

---

8. Psychological and Sociocultural Underpinnings

Matthew Rimsky and Julian Walker explore the psychological motivations behind the adoption of raw wellness trends, drawing parallels to Freudian concepts of autonomy and societal control. They argue that the distrust in institutional guidelines fosters a community that embraces raw practices as a form of rebellion and self-empowerment.

Matthew Rimsky [41:12]: "We've lost control of our own shit. And we're no longer in raw or direct relationship with life."

Julian Walker [46:32]: "The types of things that these all rely on... require some basic scientific literacy."

They posit that shared emotional fervor and a desire for authenticity drive the persistence of these movements despite clear evidence of their risks.

---

9. Conclusion and Final Remarks

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the broader implications of the raw wellness trend within the conspiratorial and spiritual landscape. They emphasize the need for critical thinking and informed decision-making to counteract the spread of pseudoscientific health practices.

Matthew Rimsky [56:34]: "If their goal is respectability... the fixation is really more broad. It's about feeling disconnected."

Julian Walker [47:50]: "If you use this in an individualistic way... these movements are probably dealing with shared forms of emotional fervor."

The hosts call for greater awareness and understanding of how such wellness trends operate, urging listeners to seek evidence-based information and remain vigilant against manipulative marketing tactics.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Mallory DeMille [02:12]: "Today I had a raw T bone steak with raw bison, bone marrow, raw bison liver and raw milk."

• Derek Barris [11:14]: "One of them relied on parental reports of milk consumption, which is subject to recall bias because they didn't actually keep records, which is what they do in clinical science."

• Mallory DeMille [03:24]: "In my wellness watching, I've seen an influx in the promotion of All Things Raw, but definitely more intensely since RFK Jr's nomination back in November."

• Julian Walker [31:50]: "But I'm just playing. It was the whole structured water scam... alkaline water was closely tied to those Kangen water MLM products."

• Derek Barris [38:34]: "The Environmental Protection Agency routinely screens for nearly 100 contaminants to ensure tap water is safe. In contrast, raw water remains untested, unregulated and untreated."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 245 of Conspirituality serves as a critical examination of the raw wellness movement, exposing the pseudoscientific foundations and potential health hazards of raw diets. By dissecting the narratives of influencers and contextualizing them within historical and psychological frameworks, the podcast underscores the importance of skepticism and informed health choices in an era rife with misinformation and conspiratorial thinking.

Transcript

[Matthew Rimsky]

What is Dax Are you tracking all.

[Julian Walker]

Our cars on Carvana Value Tracker on all our devices? Yes Kristen, yes I am.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Well I've been looking for my phone.

[Julian Walker]

For In Dax's domain we see all so we always know what our cars are worth.

[Matthew Rimsky]

All of them? All of them.

[Julian Walker]

Value surge trucks up 3.9%.

[Mallory DeMille]

That's a great offer.

[Julian Walker]

I know.

[Derek Barris]

Sell Sell.

[Julian Walker]

Track your car's value with Carvana Value Tracker.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Today I can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a.

[Mallory DeMille]

Keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it.

[Matthew Rimsky]

To Beth and Steve.

[Mallory DeMille]

And it does without me lifting a.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Finger so I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3 will that be cash or credit?

[Julian Walker]

Credit.

[Derek Barris]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail].

[Matthew Rimsky]

Compatible with select apps. Requires Google Gemini account.

[Julian Walker]

Results may vary based on input.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Check responses for accuracy.

[Julian Walker]

Foreign.

[Derek Barris]

Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I'm Matthew Rimsky.

[Julian Walker]

I'm Julian Walker.

[Mallory DeMille]

And I'm Mallory DeMille.

[Derek Barris]

You can find us on Instagram and threads conspiritualitypod and we are also all independently on Blue Sky. You can of course find Mallory DeMille on most of those places as well, though she hasn't taken a Blue sky as much yet. I'm trying to get her over there more. You can also access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality and you can just get our bonus episodes over on Apple Subscriptions if that is your platform of choice. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support.

[Mallory DeMille]

This is everything I eat in a day to feel happy and healthy.

[Derek Barris]

Breakfast is my favorite meal of the day.

[Mallory DeMille]

Today I had a raw T bone steak with raw bison, bone marrow, raw bison liver and raw milk.

[Julian Walker]

I had some figs.

[Mallory DeMille]

And for lunch I had raw yogurt with cinnamon maple syrup and two duck egg yolks mixed in. These are both double yolks, which is good luck. It made me so happy. Then I had Greco gum which is made from the SAP of a tree. And for dinner I had ground raw beef with heart, liver and kidney, a glass of milk and a purple sweet potato with coconut oil. Listeners, today's episode is unpasteurized, unfiltered, uncooked. Everything is brought to you in its most pure form. Just as nature intended and just as your health would prefer, according to some adamant folks online. Think raw milk, raw water and raw meat, the influencers amplifying it, the pseudoscience keeping it cultured and alive, and the fallouts of this naturalistic fallacy. So sit back, relax, and try not to gag as we unpack the ongoing phenomenon with All Things Raw.

[Matthew Rimsky]

If you're a guy and you like to raw dog life like me, then you may want to consider eating your meat raw, not this guy. Basically, it's the same feeling you would have if you decided to take off that condom. 20 to 30% more of a vibe.

[Mallory DeMille]

Ah yes, nothing like glorifying unprotected sex to try and sell your unproven raw meat agenda. I'm so happy to be back and as you can see, I've started the episode with lots of really great health advice. But we'll come back to raw dogging Christian Van Camp in a bit. In my wellness watching, I've seen an influx in the in the promotion of All Things Raw, but definitely more intensely since RFK Jr's nomination back in November, where influencers seemed immediately overjoyed by the prospect of raw milk being legalized. Derek we did an Instagram video together that analyzed a Dave Asprey comment section where he asked his followers what they'd want RFK Jr. To do to make America healthy again. And in between the anti seed oil, anti vax, and anti glyphosate answers, there was a lot of mention of raw milk.

[Derek Barris]

Based on what I've seen, saying that you love raw milk is like this perfect declaration.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I'm a critical thinker.

[Derek Barris]

I'm anti establishment. It's it's its own way of virtue. Signaling carries the same sentiment as saying that you listen to Joe Rogan or that you had an unmedicated birth or.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Who aren't following the vaccine schedule.

[Derek Barris]

You kind of put it out there as a litmus test to see the reaction. It's extending your hand for the secret handshake, and it's polarizing by design. There's either an acceptance of the secret handshake or rejection. If overt political discussion were a mathematical function, then raw milk is a derivative.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Because it's definitely at least correlated with a political ideology, which is exactly what's.

[Mallory DeMille]

Made it so red hot and what's.

[Derek Barris]

Made it so much more than just milk.

[Mallory DeMille]

Listeners, meet Leslie Voorhis. You may not recognize her name, as she doesn't have a particularly large platform, but her husband, Kaylee Means, certainly does. On 12-22-2024 Kaylee tweeted out kids should be drinking more raw milk and less juice. Articulating further in an Instagram post that the government has banned the interstate sale of raw milk despite its immense health benefits of reducing childh allergies and asthma. And to no one's surprise, Kaylee does not follow up with evidence for this claim.

[Derek Barris]

Kaylee and Leslie actually kind of cut their teeth in business by starting a wedding dress company. I have to look more into that, but I want to, I want to know the wedding dress to raw milk pipeline how that happened. But all of this is part of Kaylee's mo. Most people likely know him as the co author of the best selling pop sci book Good Energy alongside his sister Casey Means neither of them are endocrinologists. In fact, Kaylee is a business school graduate who now runs a website that lets people use pre tax dollars to purchase supplements and ice baths, which is kind of illegal. But he, he makes a case for it and does a telehealth thing with it. His career mostly involves talking about credible science while boosting alt med products and practices. So honestly it's not really surprising to me that he's on the raw milk train. And Casey herself is also a big fan of raw milk and she can be seen hanging out with Leslie in the social media feed you're about to discuss.

[Julian Walker]

What's fasc Mallory about that clip is that it could be media analysis, like it could be criticism.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

Like as you listen to it, you're like wait, I'm not sure. This is actually very, very astute. Like these are all the reasons why this succeeds even though it's nonsense. But she's actually making a case for it, right?

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, it's pretty hyper meta as you know, a very self consciously promoting raw milk as a political project. But you're not necessarily sure from that that she's the seller of it. But of course she is.

[Mallory DeMille]

I thought the exact same thing. I had to listen to it a few times because she was saying that it's similar to list listening to Joe Rogan and I was like ugh, totally. And then I listened to it again and I was like, oh, she thinks she's a critical thinker. Right. This is the approach she's taking. But Leslie, her Instagram bio does read Maha mom building Shake Up Superfoods. And Shake Up Superfoods is the food truck that she runs in Arizona. I kind of thought the term superfoods was a bit overused even for the wellness space, but I guess it's not. And especially when it's taken on new, more current characters like raw milk. And that's because Leslie's food truck offers, according to their Instagram bio, the perfect daily drink. Raw milk, protein, fiber, healthy fats, caffeine, and no added sugar.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Out of a truck.

[Mallory DeMille]

All out of a truck. Shake Up's about page focuses on predictably, the broken food system. And I guess their answer to that is $12 smoothies.

[Derek Barris]

You know, you said superfoods being overused. And I want to say that I was in working in the food industry at the time when the term came around. I was working with a lot of the companies. David Wolff, Sambazon, Acai Guayaqui, or Mate. They were all friends of mine and Superfoods. The Superfoods Pavilion was something that I was involved with as I would travel around the conferences and I would DJ the after parties for that pavilion now. So I was very much involved in that terminology and I was around the people who were creating it. And a few years later, they were all like, yeah, we're moving on from this as a marketing technique technique, and they all abandoned the term. So the fact that they're trying to revive something that was let go by the industry a long time ago, coming from a business school graduate perspective, instead of actually being with the industry kind of makes sense to me because everything they're doing is about reviving some sort of like old romanticized notion of. Of something that's essentially just a marketing tactic.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, it's related to the kind of Internet garbage idea. Right. Where. Where something becomes so ubiquitous that it's. It's assumed to be leg because it's been around for a long time. There's this term superfood, and we're just going to apply it to our new marketing now because it's a legit thing. Right. When it was made up in the first place.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah. Superfoods are back. And in a marketing way. And by making raw milk this primary part of their marketing efforts, it appears, I do imagine Leslie gets a lot of questions about why raw milk? And in this Instagram post, which is on her food Truck profile, Leslie gives her best argument for raw milk.

[Derek Barris]

The most common question I get about raw milk is what is your best.

[Mallory DeMille]

Argument for drinking it? And the answer I like to give.

[Derek Barris]

Is actually around kids and babies. This isn't talked about enough.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Consuming raw milk has been shown to.

[Derek Barris]

Reduce fevers, respiratory issues, allergies, and asthma. And pasteurized milk does not show a protective effect.

[Mallory DeMille]

So maybe these are the studies that cayleigh was also pulling from, but without actually articulating where he was getting his information. And that seems to be pretty popular in the Make America Healthy Again crowd.

[Derek Barris]

Well, Mallory, when you sent this to me, there were studies included, so that is a challenge. And you might be surprised or might not be surprised to learn that the science does not hold up in that clip you played or in the other ones we reviewed. So here's a quick rundown of the problems with the three studies that she includes. One of them relied on parental reports of milk consumption, which is subject to recall bias because they didn't actually keep records, which is what they do in clinical science. And it's also a must for any sort of nutritional field work. It was limited to three European countries, and researchers could have selected for families and regions with lower asthma rates to begin with. Study never addresses the biological me mechanisms of why whey protein would protect against asthma. They also did not rule out other aspects of farm exposure. But here's a big one. They never ruled out the possibility that children with asthma or allergies may avoid consuming farm milk, rather than farm milk protecting against these conditions. So another one of the studies is based in four European countries that only focused on rural children, which does not translate to the majority of who live in urban areas. And in fact, the study was conducted by the Pasture Study Group, which is an organization that specifically focuses on people in farms in rural areas. Now, it's a legit organization. They were formed by the European Commission in 2002, but it was specific to those environments. So I would say such research is important for those areas, but you can't extrapolate from it and apply it to different environments. And that's all pretty rich, given how often wellness influencers talk about the relevance of the terrain or the environment. And then finally, there's the third study, and there's a study design issue with different populations, milk types, raw versus processed, and environmental factors. These could all affect consistency in results, and they're not teased out properly in the study. And again, farm and rural children experience lifestyle factors that other children do not. And finally, this particular analysis actually states the following quote, because of the minimal but real risk of life, life threat, infections, consumption of raw milk and products thereof is strongly discouraged. Yet she's using it as proof to back up the company and whose products she's trying to sell.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah, that's unsurprising. And I always think of it. I grew up on a farm, and I worked on a dairy farm, and I just always think about getting milk from the, from the house and from the tank, how adamant they were. Make sure it's the pasteurized milk. Like, make sure. And so whenever I see stuff like this, I just, I don't know, I always think about that. But given, given all of that and even the conclusion of those studies, this is still a group that seems super thirsty for raw milk to become the mainstream.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I mean, what you just said, Mallory, it underlines this kind of inability to think through, like, probabilistic risk analysis and like, you know, which, which sorts of risk versus benefit equations are really worth it. And Derek, you're demanding that these people be literal about terrain theory, that it refers to literal terrain as opposed to a kind of metaphysical terrain of like the internal mind, body, health of your empowered kind of sovereign self. Right. And this is the time. Yeah, yeah, you could get it together. This is the time we're living through. I mean, it's so easy to find out that the health benefits of raw milk that they claim are completely unfounded, while the dangers are potentially very severe, even if they occur at small percentages, you get to large population levels and that, that, you know, it's just a non starter. But the power of pseudoscience propaganda can just scoop up a whole demographic in its enthusiasm.

[Mallory DeMille]

So when news of the bird flu was making headlines last year, Paul Saladino, of former Carnivore MD fame took to his Instagram stories to tell his followers that, well, he wasn't worried about it and wasn't worried about how it could impact his precious raw milk. And to find out why, all you had to do was sign up for his newsletter. He has also repeated these above claims about it being advantageous for children to consume. I'd say he should bring receipts for these claims, but he's afraid to touch receip.

[Derek Barris]

Unlike you former fame or just Carnivore, because he's just, he's still growing in popularity. Mallory, how dare you.

[Mallory DeMille]

He is. But in terms of like, his branding, he did make a statement of his handle used to be Carnivoremd, and now it's just Paul Saladino. And so like former. In case people folks remember him from.

[Derek Barris]

That handle, you might have noticed that some influencers are crying foul because the bird flu found in raw milk was not affecting humans. And this is true, but it's actually beside the point. Virologists know that these strains can mutate, and while they're not certain which batch of raw milk could contain a strain that does affect humans, they know it's a possibility. So Back to your point Julian, it's risk assessment. You might be fine and most people might be fine, but why take that risk when a product exists that gives you all of the health benefits without that risk? So pretty much everything we're talking about today is really a matter of that risk assessment, despite what influencers claim.

[Mallory DeMille]

But it's not just being pushed to parents for their children. Adults are taking to social media to share their supposed benefits they're experiencing from switching to raw milk. And I just want to say based on what I've seen, it's not just switching to raw milk. It's switching and also increasing how much you drink by like a lot by like the liter. It's just like chugging raw milk to own the libs or something. Mason jars of it. But interestingly enough, when searching raw milk on TikTok to see what laundry list of benefits folks were claiming, TikTok actually feeds you this disclaimer. Raw milk is a topic with diverse perspectives ranging from its benefits to potential risks and legal considerations. Here's a comprehensive overview and in this lists benefits of raw milk, potential risks, practical tips for consuming raw milk, and legal considerations. And I just find the language here really interesting because benefits are framed as absolute, it's just listed as benefits, but the risks are framed as potential, making them seem less likely. And I'm just left wondering why diets risks are potential risks, but benefits aren't potential benefits. Maybe this is too granular, but no, no.

[Julian Walker]

I think it's such a great observation, Mallory. It makes the risks seem rare and only worth worrying about if you're a fearful little sheeple, like someone who wears a helmet on a motorcycle. But you're missing like the benefits of feeling the wind in your hair and being a real man, right? Because that's inevitably going to be what happens. But the natural and immutable benefits that your warm milk supposedly have will give you you superpowers and cure whatever ails you. So you should take even more of it than the mainstream suggests.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yes, totally. But I digress. The benefits various influencers are touting online include but are not limited to improving acne ability to actually digest raw dairy compared to pasteurized improving your gut that it's the cleanest milk because it hasn't been messed with. And in one TikTok a woman's doctor prescribed an eight day raw milk diet to cleanse parasites and it appears I can't do an episode without coming across a parasite cleanse clem parasite cleanse claim anymore. I also saw it being recommended during the la wildfires as a safety precaution for fire pollution. But what about the risks? In a November 2024 TikTok, Dr. Eric Burnett details the long term risks of drinking raw milk. And we're going to play it in full. And it even includes a familiar acronym.

[Derek Barris]

Raw unpasteurized milk is teeming to the brim with bacteria.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Some of those bacteria are fine, like.

[Derek Barris]

Lactobacillus, but a lot of them aren't. And one of them is E. Coli O157:H7, which produces a toxin known as Shiga toxin.

[Matthew Rimsky]

And when you come into contact with.

[Derek Barris]

That toxin, it causes a disease known.

[Matthew Rimsky]

As hemolytic uremic syndrome, or hus. It falls under a broader category of.

[Derek Barris]

Diseases known as the microangiopathic hemolytic anemias or maha.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Pathogenesis of hemolytic uremic syndrome from Shiga toxin exposure is actually quite interesting.

[Derek Barris]

So the Shiga toxin translocates from your gut when you consume the raw milk.

[Matthew Rimsky]

And gets into your bloodstream.

[Derek Barris]

And what it does is it causes massive amounts of inflammation of the endothelial.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Lining of your blood vessels, particularly the blood vessels in your kidney.

[Derek Barris]

Now, in response to that inflammation, the.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Platelets in your blood get activated and.

[Derek Barris]

Start sticking to the endothelial lining along.

[Matthew Rimsky]

With fibrin and other clotting factors.

[Derek Barris]

Now, when this happens, a couple of things occur. One is that the platelets in forming.

[Matthew Rimsky]

These clots in your blood vessels consume.

[Derek Barris]

A lot of the proteins that allow.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Your blood to clot.

[Derek Barris]

So while you're forming these tiny clots.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Your blood is actually losing the ability.

[Derek Barris]

To clot as a whole.

[Matthew Rimsky]

And now your blood vessels are studded with all these tiny little blood clots. So as your red blood cells pass by, they bump into those blood clots and break open.

[Derek Barris]

That's the hemolytic component of this disease. And because this causes inflammation of your kidneys blood vessels, you going to kidney failure.

[Matthew Rimsky]

And because you can't clot your blood anymore, you start bleeding a lot, usually from your rectum because of all the.

[Derek Barris]

Intestinal inflammation from the E. Coli diarrhea.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You develop from drinking raw unpasteurized milk. And what's also interesting to note is.

[Derek Barris]

That you are far more likely to.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Develop a foodborne illness from consuming raw unpasteurized milk than you are from developing.

[Derek Barris]

An adverse effect from vaccination. And I know proponents of raw milk.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Will say, hey, well there are health benefits from drinking raw milk, so we're willing to take the risk.

[Derek Barris]

And it's interesting that you take the.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Risk benefit analysis into drinking raw milk, but not with vaccination.

[Julian Walker]

Hi everyone. Julian here and I'm delighted to do this spot for Factor meals because I've used the service for years and I absolutely love it. If you're ready, optimize your nutrition. This year Factor has Chef made gourmet meals that make eating well easy. They're dietitian approved. They're ready to heat and eat in just two minutes so you can fuel right and feel great no matter what life throws at you. With 40 options across eight dietary preferences on the menu each week, it's easy to pick meals tailored to your goals. And that really is the truth. You can go in, it's super intuitive and just adjust and pick and choose for each week and they arrive just as you like. You have preferences like Calorie smart, Protein plus or keto. So eat smart with factor get [e-mail] conspirituality 50 off and use the code FactorPodcast to get 50% off your first box plus free shipping. That's code [e-mail] conspiirituality 50 off to get 50% off plus free shipping on your first box.

[Mallory DeMille]

Hey, do you have trouble sleeping? Then maybe you should check out the Sleepy Podcast. It's a show where I read old books in the public domain to help.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You get to sleep.

[Mallory DeMille]

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

[Julian Walker]

It was the age of classic stories.

[Mallory DeMille]

Like A Tale of Two Cities, Pride and Prejudice, Winnie the Pooh, stories that are great for adults and kids alike. For years now, Sleepy has helped millions of people catch some much needed Z's, start their next day off fresh and.

[Julian Walker]

Discover old books that they didn't know they loved.

[Mallory DeMille]

So whether you have a tough time snoozing or you just like a good bedtime story, fluff up the cool side.

[Julian Walker]

Of your pillow and tune into Sleepy.

[Mallory DeMille]

Unless you're driving, then please don't listen to Sleepy.

[Julian Walker]

Find Sleepy on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mallory DeMille]

New episodes each week. Sweet Dreams.

[Derek Barris]

Have you ever wondered why we call French fries French fries? Or why something is the greatest thing since sliced bread? There are answers to those questions. Everything Everywhere Daily is a podcast for curious people who want to learn more about the world around them.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Every day you'll learn something new about.

[Derek Barris]

Things you never knew you didn't know.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Subjects include history, science, geography, mathematics, and culture.

[Derek Barris]

If you're a curious person and want to learn more about the world you live in, just subscribe to Everything, everywhere, daily, wherever you cast your pod. As with many wellness trends today, the raw movement has roots in the 19th century. While healthcare as a profession and industry was being formed, with the first university programs being codified and traveling documentary doctors settling into clinics and hospitals around the country, patent medicine salesmen took up the bulk of newspaper advertising to sell quack remedies for every ailment imaginable. And in the process, they were raging against doctors and medications at every opportunity. What we're experiencing today never really went away, as even this trend was common across Europe for centuries before America was even a thing. We can understand raw food through the framework of the back to the land ideology, the notion that our ancestors lived harmoniously with nature and derived the most nutritional benefits from eating uncooked foods. Obviously, we don't have a ton of record keeping about all the various diseases these ancestors succumbed to from eating bacteria filled foods, but hey, why let that ruin a good imagination?

[Mallory DeMille]

I also just like love seeing the folks advocating for a primal diet for these reasons simultaneously also getting various supplements delivered to their door every month.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, eat our primal diet. And they only need these 10 other things to supplement for what you're not.

[Julian Walker]

Getting made in a factory.

[Derek Barris]

So to continue with the history, Swiss physician Maximilian Oscar Bercher Benner, I love four part names, is credited with kicking off the modern raw food movement. A raw food vegetarian, he popularized muesli around the world. And as with today's wellness influencers, his story begins with an end anecdote. He claims to have cured jaundice by eating raw apples. He ended up becoming a raw food vegetarian, and he prescribed raw diets to all his patients, regardless of their condition. He also championed the benefits of sunbathing, cold showers. He even used a medicinal bath created by John Harvey Kellogg, the man who advocated for bland cereals so that men wouldn't go off and masturbate all the time. Time.

[Julian Walker]

Oh yeah, Kellogg. This is right in my wheelhouse. He was one of the collaborators. He collaborated with Ellen G. White, who's the prophet and founder of Seventh Day Adventism. And these folks were central to the development of the idea of natural health retreats that utilize colonics and yogurt enemas and dietary modifications like Harvey's cereals, and physical exercise and abstaining from alcohol, tobacco and sex while on the property they founded, which was called Battle Creek sanitarium back in 1866, and then Ellen's vegetarian vegetarianism. You'll love this. Derek would later lead to the city of Loma Linda, California, which is like 57th Day Adventists, most of whom are vegetarians, being designated as a blue zone.

[Derek Barris]

Blue zone. But everyone knows you only coffee works in enemas, not yogurt. Bertrand Benner was one influence on the natural hygiene movement in the early 20th century in America, which launched raw foodism here. Naturopath Herbert Shelton was another figure. You might remember him as the presidential candidate in 1952, 66, running for the American Vegetarian Party. Probably don't remember that, but that was actually a party. And they ran candidates in five successive elections from 48 to 64. In case anyone thinks food has not always been political, now, the 60s really brought raw foodism mainstream, with the hippies adopting old ideas about rebelling against an increasingly industrialized and technological society. Most food movements are in reaction to something. And the 60s and 70s saw a serious back to the land movement that embraced a romanticized notion of early agriculture, which in part meant eating food as our forebears did. The modern raw food movement was led by people like foods Right Activist Jonas Vonderplanets, a great name for a man who was born John Swigert in Denver, Colorado. Now, he too, anecdotally attributes raw carrots and raw dairy to his healing journey against terminal cancer. But in his case, he made real world legislative impact. He is the man who helped make the sale of raw milk legal in California in 2001. And he was working alongside a man named Mark McAfee, who listeners might know as the owner of Raw Farm, which is the same California farm that recently had to recall all of its products due to bird flu contamination. And he's also the man that RFK Jr. Is considering installing as a raw milk czar in the current administration.

[Julian Walker]

Oh, I don't even know what to say about that. But I've heard Ajanas or Ajanis. I've heard that name again and again as sort of like the. The central expert and guru figure of the wrong movement. I remember in the 90s that there was this escalating hierarchy that sort of emerged as this quote unquote, eating clean idea. And it became more and more popular amongst yoga folks. It came with all of the attendant spiritual status if you ate clean, and first it was almost required to be vegetarian, which kind of of gels somewhat with the yoga tradition, then vegan. Then for a while it was like, oh, yeah, it's vegan, but is it organic? And then the apex of this spiritual virtue signaling of diet purity and. And having food with living energy was definitely being raw for a minute there, especially Raw vegan, which has changed a bit now culturally with the intersection of bro science optimization and the raw fetish extending to raw animal products.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You know, and talking about actions and reactions, Derek, you mentioned that the back to the landers in the 60s and 70s were responding to like a perceived increase in industrialization post war. And that's definitely true. And then Julian, it's also true that there was this other entrepreneurial wave in the 90s tied in with the yoga and other wellness lifestyle booms. There's a missing decade in there that I've just sort of started thinking about. And from what I remember from living in rural Vermont and Wisconsin, there's this kind of relative quiet going on in the organic farming front in the 1980s. And I think that resulted from many in that first wave just giving up because farming is fucking hard. And I think by the time we get to the 90s, the natural food boom is mainly urbanized and gentrified. It's about like foodie culture in major cities. So now with regenerative agriculture, I think people are going to try their hand at working the soil again and it's going to be really hard, just as it was before.

[Derek Barris]

Well, it's not like it was new, but the 80s was also when the immigrants just flooded the farms and that kind of went underground as Reaganomics were going on. Now of course, you know, just a couple years ago there was another attempt at getting basically white Americans jobs in farms and there was a national call by a government agency and I think the Total number of 0 people applied to work on a farm.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Well, that's why Doge got rid of that program, Derek. That's why it's totally gone. Aren't you happy about that?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, but to your point, Matthew, it could be that this kind of spiritual fetish for hard things like farming skips a generation because you need, you need.

[Derek Barris]

To forget how hard it is.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You need. Yeah, yeah.

[Julian Walker]

Before you idealize it again.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, exactly. The kids have to get some other job and then a new generation has to come in and get fooled.

[Derek Barris]

So to wrap up the history, other modern proponents of the raw scene include Gabriel Cousins and David Wolf, who we covered extensively back on episode 120. As I said then, I worked on some events with Wolf over 20 years ago. My friend Jill was his right hand woman for years. So listeners can gain some insider insights into the early formation of the raw foods movement. Going back to that episode now, like before, it has often been marketed as a response to an increasingly alienating world. A chance to return to the good old times when things like germ theory didn't exist because we didn't have an understanding of germs, and when all our food was sourced in our backyard. Hard A romantic time that seems to now be relegated to tick tock for people who could afford such lifestyles. For everyone else, the fantasy of an unexploited world can be purchased at a premium at Erewhon. Just make sure to blame the libs if you get sick. But as this next clip we're now going to run shows, apparently it's actually really the tap water that is making us sick.

[Mallory DeMille]

We live in a world where clean, sustainable drinking water is more precious than ever, and over the past 10 or.

[Julian Walker]

So years I have been shocked to.

[Mallory DeMille]

Learn just how undrinkable our tap water truly is. I avoid plastic packaged water as much as possible due to harmful leaching BPAs and obvious environmental reasons, but I knew there needed to be a better option. So I did my research and came across Alive Waters.

[Julian Walker]

I ordered a bunch of these beautiful.

[Mallory DeMille]

Sustainable and reusable glass bottles and dispensers and started using Finder Spring, a free resource to easily discover nearby natural springs right at my fingertips. All you do is visit findaspring.org Enter your location and unlock a world of untapped, pristine water sources. I'll take a glass vessel and go fill up straight from the source. I'm so proud to join the movement for cleaner, healthier hydration and deeply trust and believe that education is where better.

[Julian Walker]

Water begins because your water should be as alive as you are.

[Mallory DeMille]

Water as a popular wellness target is not new. From hydrogen water to living water to reverse osmosis to ionized to fluoride free to the cancer curing MLM types, special water that is expensive and harder to come by has been adored by privileged folks for supposed health benefits for longer than TikTok has been around.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, but I really have faith and believe that it's very, very important. I was sitting here, I have headphones on listening to that clip and I noticed about halfway through that that wasn't my heart, that was actually part of the music. That music is so hypnotic and creates such a sense of like oh, you're being taken into this really helpful explanation about something important and powerful for a while. You know, following this stuff myself. It was the whole structured water scam which our old friend Dr. Christiane Northrup guys got involved in for a while. But then came alkaline water. Remember this? It was closely tied to those Kangen water like MLM kind of products. Like you buy this five thousand dollar alkalizing machine with an onboard computer and it has this voice that tells you the water has magically been transformed and what its new PH is gang in water pH4 or whatever pH7. And then once you've bought one of these things, I guess the idea was you either get people to bring their own gallon jugs over to be alkalized for a small fee so that they can have this very special expensive water, or you try to sell them a machine yourself so that you can collect the commission. Or both, I guess sometimes.

[Mallory DeMille]

But it's still around and usually both. But with raw water we find ourselves in a place where we're not adding hydrogen or reversing the osmosis. Why mess with the perfection of nature, right? The idea is that the water is straight from the earth, untouched, not stripped of its vital minerals and probiotics. It possesses more abundant health benefits and that's contaminants and parasites be damned. And I guess the clean water crisis be damned too. To the woman you heard from in that clip is talking about the company Alive Water. And according to their Instagram, which is categorized as health and beauty, they sell pure spring water and reusable glass. And I'll give it to them, their glass jars are really beautiful. You might recall a pretty viral video from a few years ago of a woman holding up one of these jars saying let's talk about Alive Water and why she felt perfectly content paying $80 for it. It appears this company has always mostly been a spring water delivery service, but their name hasn't always been alive. 2018 Men's Health Article titled this pricey raw water is a total scam. $64 gets you tap water from Oregon. The same company is referred to as Live Water. You heard that right. Quoting directly from the article, Live Water's pricey fountain of truth is just tap water from Jefferson county, which residents get piped into their homes for about 1/3 of a cent per gallon. And I wonder if this inspired the miner rebrand. The article references that shortly before publication, the company's website updated to reflect this reality and it appears it's still there under the faq. Is your water delivery service just repackaged tap water?

[Matthew Rimsky]

What do they say? Yes. Yeah, it is. It comes from Oregon.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah, they say. Yep.

[Julian Walker]

They have to, right?

[Mallory DeMille]

They have to. Seems like false advertising. No? Well, according to the article, again, although the owner's claims that Livewater is good for you appear to be bullshit, it's not illegal per se. For the company to make these false claims. The company includes all the relevant FDA disclaimers about its mystical claims, which essentially act as a buffer against accusations of false advert. The owner's Instagram is full of raw water gatherings, but he never explicitly says he's showing the live water bottling process for its actual product. Oh boy, don't we love a very telling FDA disclaimer.

[Matthew Rimsky]

So their actual production is in a tap water facility somewhere in Oregon. But he puts videos of himself going out to streams and rivers.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah, yeah, it's all the aesthetic. Raw water is about an aesthetic. And so while this company isn't selling water they collected in the woods, there's certainly no doubt in my mind that content like this is still inspiring folks to go do it for themselves. I prefer drinking this water that has.

[Derek Barris]

A little bit of dirt and bacteria in it over to water sold in.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Stores or from the tap that has fluoride, chlorine and other chemicals that I don't want to be consuming. This is definitely the healthiest water I've ever drank. Fresh, cold spring water straight from the earth.

[Mallory DeMille]

Listeners, meet Riley, who captioned that video.

[Julian Walker]

With this Humans were not designed to be drinking water that has gone through multiple stages of filtration that strip it of all its minerals before getting chemicals added to it. I drink fresh spring water from clean springs whenever possible. Would you drink this water now?

[Mallory DeMille]

Riley, who goes online by the Holistic grenade, has almost 40,000 Instagram followers. He's not a raw water specific influencer, but he is, however, someone who will fear monger whatever he can get his hands on and offers coaching on living in alignment with nature, the modern world. He also brings his own oil to restaurants to request they cook with it because seed oils. He loves to take videos of himself in the grocery store, Paul Saladino style. And he posted a video last year saying that getting a colonoscopy was kind of gay and if his wife ever got one, he'd divorce her. But to my knowledge, he is not married.

[Derek Barris]

My wife worked in hospitality for a long time in many restaurants and hotels before switching careers in the pandemic. And let me just say, if you go to a restaurant with your own oil, you are an asshole. The people who are working there hate you. And this, this goes across a lot of requests, and I'm talking about non allergy requests, but specifically, if you're gonna go there with that sort of attitude, just cook at home. Don't put that on people who already have a hard enough job as it is.

[Mallory DeMille]

While raw water doesn't appear to have the same volume of influencers that raw milk and raw meat do. There are folks picking it up for the same reasons. It's pure and untouched by the pesky government or FDA or maybe Big Pharma. I'm not really sure who they're like blaming for that now, but Riley is just one example of someone captured by wellness who has added this potentially risky practice to their arsenal of health habits. But that seems to be the pattern. If you're distrustful of the groups issuing guidelines and warnings, you're more than likely to call conspiracy on everything under any health Recommendation umbrella. It's 2025 and raw water is still around. Bill Sullivan, professor of microbiology and immunology, just authored a piece for the Conversation last month called How Does Raw Water Compare to Tap Water? A microbiologist explains why the risks outweigh the benefits and to quote the last paragraph directly, the Environmental Protection Agency routinely screens for nearly 100 contaminants to ensure tap water is safe. In contrast, raw water remains untested, unregulated and untreated, leaving it safety to drink in question. In terms of risks and benefits, there are no demonstrated health benefits from drinking raw water, but clear ev that you may be exposing yourself to harmful, infectious and toxic contaminants.

[Derek Barris]

Welcome to the I Can't Sleep Podcast with Benjamin Boster.

[Matthew Rimsky]

If you're tired of sleepless nights nights, you'll love the I Can't Sleep podcast.

[Derek Barris]

I help quiet your mind by reading random articles from across the web to bore you to sleep with my soothing voice. Each episode provides enough interesting content to hold your attention, and then your mind.

[Julian Walker]

Lets you drift off. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. That's I Can't Sleep with Benjamin Boster.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Feeling overwhelmed or stressed? Take a deep breath and join me on the I Can Relax Podcast. Whether you're new to mindfulness or looking to deepen your practice, each episode is.

[Derek Barris]

Designed to help you slow down, down.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Calm your mind and be fully present, even if you've never tried mindfulness before. With simple guided exercises, soothing nature visualizations, and relaxing stories, I Can't Relax makes mindfulness easy and accessible for anyone who wants to reduce stress and find peace. Subscribe to I Can't Relax wherever you.

[Derek Barris]

Get your podcasts and start your journey.

[Matthew Rimsky]

To a calmer mind today.

[Derek Barris]

This is Chris Christensen from the Amateur Traveler Podcast. The Amateur Traveler Podcast is about the love of travel. It's about where to go and why you should go there. We're going to open up to you different destinations you haven't heard of or places you have heard of, but things you didn't know to do while you were there. Each episode is about 45 minutes long and it's typically an interview with someone who wrote the guidebook on that destination or who has been there, or who's a local tour guide or someone who is an expert on that destination and knows how to tell you what to do to get the most out of your precious vacation time. So if you value your vacation time and you want to use it wisely, listen to Amateur Traveler and learn about destinations, both domestic and international, places you've heard of and places you haven't. Amateur Traveler has almost 900 episodes talking about different destinations. So if there's a place you want to go, odds are we've already covered it and can help you plan a trip there.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Amateur Traveler.

[Derek Barris]

Subscribe today.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You know, I've got two brief observations and one is that like, we know that this purity pollution fetish can politicize itself into more obsessive forms of body fascism, but I don't think these folks are quite there yet. Like, Derek, you were pointing out in our backchannel that these people are not Maha complicit, at least not yet. I mean, we do have Leslie in there and she's linked with the Means family, but the other influencers that we're looking at are not really in that fold per se. So to me, the fixation is really more broad. It's about feeling disconnected, which I think you referenced, feeling like there's always mediation between ourselves and the thing like. Like these are people who want everything to be raw, like raw information, unmediated news. They want to shrink down bureaucracies so that there's nothing between them and their, you know, whatever it is they're doing. So it's not just about deregulation and profit seeking. It's also about compensating for feelings of alienation in general. And I want to note that historically those themes and desires resonate with like the pre fascist and therefore like pre Maha, romantic concerns with the corruptions of industrialization and urbanization in general and a distrust or resentment towards the sanitation systems required when population density increases and everybody's living in cities. So I hear a lot in here that's sort of resonant with William Blake's primary concern when he writes about the dark satanic mills and so on. But it's also a primary focus of people like Marx, who pioneered the hypothesis of the metabolic rift between industry and the world when he Observed how urbanization, like, actually removed. By bringing people into cities. You remove the fecal fertilizing base from the countryside to create cesspools in the slums. And that depresses crop yields. And this was a keynote in his theory of alienation. Which to him is not a psychological state. I think we often misunderstand that term. It's really a material state of being disowned and displaced from the means of your own life. You know, so in other words, like, we've lost control of our own shit. And we're no longer in raw or direct relationship with life. And then the last little observation that I have is that, you know, if these folks know about the bacterial risks of raw stuff. The relationship with filth that we're talking about here. I think is worth thinking about. And I think it's hard to avoid Freud, who centers these concerns of individuality and autonomy. And I think the word nowadays is sovereignty. On what he calls the anal stage of discovery and control. You know, little kids, 18 months and 3 years. His insight is that we all have to grapple with this crisis of pollution and controlling our muscles and having manners. And that toileting well or disposing of contaminants properly is required for full citizenship. But we resist that. Part of us resists that. And some of us don't want to fully participate in that at all. And he pointed out that the pollution is. You know, it's at once your own body's product, but you also have to get rid of it. And. And children find that to be very strange. And then there are these struggles to move through this phase. That are associated with regression and rebellion and so on. But the caveat there is that I think the worst way to. Even though my brain goes there. I know that if you use this in an individualistic way. And imply that these particular influencers are personally obsessed with dirt, that doesn't. I don't think that really works. It's more. More that I think as we examine viral movements that reject evidence and even reality. We have to understand that we're probably dealing with, like, shared forms of emotional fervor. That need their own forms of confrontation or redirection or like, you know, therapy en masse or something.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. I mean, I think that Freudian angle may have some explanatory power. But, Matthew, the first thing that you started with really jumped out at me. If these folks know about the bacterial risks. And I think that's key, because I don't believe they actually do. My observation is that the vulnerability to con artists and pseudoscience recurs in every generation, along with things like religion and superstition and even racism. It recurs in various ways because we all start life off with the same intuitive cognitive susceptibility to logical fallacies and emotional manipulations and seductive lies. The types of things that these all rely on. I think that certain kinds of knowledge, like the objective existence and causal effects of bacteria, actually require some basic scientific literacy, because at first they seem like intangible and abstract explanations, very similar to metaphysics or faith claims, because you can't really see them. And that's until you've really grasped the overwhelming predictive relationships between these kinds of facts, like, this is bacteria and this is what it does. And then the lived experience of like, oh, yeah, that actually happened to me.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, but who outside of, like, completely benighted homeschoolers who, you know, are subjected to repressive educational regimes, are not taught to wash their hands after the toilet?

[Julian Walker]

Like, I think, well, apparently Pete Hegseth hasn't washed his hands in 10 years.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Sure. I just think that there's gotta be massive denial or internal splitting going on. They know they're transgressing something and that's part of the appeal.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I mean, I think someone like Pete Hexthouse would just say, I don't believe in it. I think it's. It's a scam. It's. It's a lie that we've been taught that we should. We should submit ourselves to. And I think pseudoscience marketing works by creating cultural memes that link our superficial intuitions about what should be healthy with reassuring and empowering seeming claims about what causes us to be sick or suboptimal. And these appeal to our maverick spirits by contradicting mainstream models and then claiming that there's this inner circle stigmatized knowledge that you can gain access to and that then generates emotional and cultural, and as one of our clips said, even political identifications that make pitching products and services a bit like shooting fish in a barrel for these people. Which may mean we're back to Freud, because the whole process exploits, deliberately or not, our coping mechanisms against feeling helpless.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

And accepting the vulnerable mortality of our corporeal existence and the imperfect yet honest solutions of medical science.

[Mallory DeMille]

Raw meat.

[Matthew Rimsky]

It's loaded up in parasites, bacteria that you do not want in your body.

[Derek Barris]

Body.

[Matthew Rimsky]

It's going to cause a whole host of issues if you eat raw meat. I'm just playing. I've been eating raw meat almost daily for the past 12 months. And it's improved my health drastically.

[Mallory DeMille]

Whenever I was eating cooked like the.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Ground beef, even some of these nice fine cuts, I noticed that it felt heavier. After the meals, I noticed that I didn't feel as hydrated as well. And this is because the meat, when it's scorched in scorching temperatures, it breaks down a lot of the fat, so the lipids and it degrades them. Another big part of this is the nutrient profile goes down and the amino acids get entangled, which causes it to be a lot more challenging to break it down. Now, I'm not saying completely go raw all the time. Use your best judgment, use your intuition. Occasionally I'll have a little bit of cooked, but I have been predominantly having raw. I prefer it now. It's much more hydrating. I can go on a run after a pound of this raw meat way easier than any cooked. And it can feel, feel it intuitively, the life force that's retained in this. Would you eat a platter of this raw meat? Let me know in the comments.

[Mallory DeMille]

Listeners, meet Christian. You may remember him from the top of the episode. You know, the one who said the feeling of eating raw meat is the same as the feeling of taking a condom off for the vibes. Christian is an online men's lifestyle coach, approaching 200,000 followers on Instagram. According to his website. He has a Bachelor of Science in Human Nutrition and as a practitioner of Check Institute, his group Vital Camp, helps aspiring health coaches and creators vitalize their brand organically, whatever that means. He loves the word vitality. He's also a main character at Bioculture Retreats, which is a conscious health retreat of sovereignty, collaboration, vitality and wealth. Based on what I can tell, they basically operate as a marketing agency that pairs wellness company clients with their roster of creators. They also eat raw meat and chug raw milk on camera. Maybe more on them at another time. I've been following Christian for a while now. He really is the perfect case study for the problematic wellness influencer. He's incredibly conspiratorial. You'd die of boredom before you could scroll through his entire link tree of supplement discount codes. He is charismatic, he shares wildly false and dangerous health information, and I've seen him make more than a few hateful comments about transgender folks over the past year. Christian's content has evolved in a few ways, and one of those ways is an increase in raw milk and raw meat diet dialogue. Christian claims that he's been trying the whole raw meat thing for about 15 months or so. He suggests that as a leader in the health and vitality space, it's up to him to debunk the fear and hysteria around raw animal foods. And so he decided to test it out on himself and let everyone know how he feels. He then puts his anecdotes on a pedestal vs quote reading a stupid paper. In one particular video, he says while holding a literal platter of plain raw grass ground beef, we get too into the peer reviewed research and the randomized control trials and all the studies. He then encourages his followers to test it out for themselves. And much like others in the space, he says as long as the meat is from a source that handles it properly to avoid contamination, you need not worry.

[Derek Barris]

As much as Christian disdains RCTs and research, the shit he's saying about the health benefits are largely invented. I mean if you want to go self experiment with raw foods, go for it. But you're gonna you'll find out the results. Cooking, cooking meat does degrade certain heat sensitive nutrients, but you're talking about B vitamins that are widely available elsewhere. There are stronger arguments to be made for cultural and culinary preferences so that it becomes a matter, as I've said earlier, of risk assessment. Do you want to take a chance of getting a foodborne illness or parasitic infection? And yes, the US does have food safety standards around suppliers of raw meat products and tartare and carpaccio is a pleasure to some. I've had both of those and they are wonderful. But it's been while for reasons like what we're discussing today, you're always rolling the dice with minimal if any health benefits. We can also look to primatologist Richard Rangam who writes about this in his excellent book which is called Catching Fire How Cooking Made Us Human. He notes that actually cooking our foods, including meats, makes more nutrients more accessible to us without all that pesky time you have to spend spending hours chewing your food. So just like raw milk, you can go for it if you want, but you're not actually getting additional benefits that are not easily accessible elsewhere. And whatever is degraded by the process of heat is not nearly what these influences are making it out to be.

[Mallory DeMille]

To round out Christian of raw dogging fame, I'm going to actually do something that I haven't done here before and that's clip one of my own videos. It's a quick back and forth stitch between Christian and myself, but it does show some of the hypocritical tendencies that folks like Christian have.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Oh, your tummy's not going to hurt the first time you're eating raw meat. And it will be easy today. Digest. As long as you are starting off small and your mindset isn't telling you, oh, there's going to be a bacterial infection. If you tell yourself that, you'll probably get sick. So go into it saying this is nourishment, this is vitality, this is raw life.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah, bacteria. Nicolae shuts a mindset. That's why Christian doesn't get sick.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Been eaten in over 90 hours, had a little gut bug. Gross. Food poisoning, whatever it was.

[Mallory DeMille]

Oh, so close. Next time. And now listeners, we've gotten to the point in the episode where you're all going to deserve a gold star after this. And that's because we've we're ending the show on a pretty rough note. Meet Scott of Scott Lives that Scott lives with a Z on Instagram. He has just over 18,000 followers and according to his bio, he helps people optimize their health through primal diet principles as described by agonists who Derek, you already mentioned in the historical context of this movement and actually in a podcast I listened to where Christian was the guest after about 20 minutes of him talking about quitting porn because it's still okay to touch yourself, but be careful not to release your life for thinner energy. He does go on to say that his raw meat diet was also inspired by the works of Aginis. When I took to Instagram to crowdsource raw meat influencers, Scott was by far the most submitted. And while he has less than 20,000 followers, his videos regularly see more than that. Often much more than that. And that's probably because you'll find Scott often eating fermented meat. Some might also call it rotten. Now, I can consume a lot of terrible content and be completely unfazed, but scrolling Scott's feed in my local coffee shop almost had me rejecting my oat milk latte listeners. Lucky for you, maybe you only have to listen to him.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, well I had to watch this clip while grabbing it for this episode, so thanks a lot Mallory.

[Julian Walker]

Here I am having a chicken meal.

[Derek Barris]

With tomato and honey sauce.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Raw chicken.

[Derek Barris]

Of course.

[Julian Walker]

You guys are like this guy probably always has diarrhea.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I don't always have diarrhea, but I do go through phases where I do have diarrhea every day.

[Derek Barris]

But it's not like I have to.

[Mallory DeMille]

Run to the toilet.

[Derek Barris]

It just when I nice it happens.

[Julian Walker]

To be liquid and I haven't had.

[Derek Barris]

That for a while. It was more so like last year.

[Julian Walker]

I don't know Maybe I went like.

[Derek Barris]

Six months where I had a little.

[Julian Walker]

Bit of diarrhea every day.

[Derek Barris]

But that's actually a really good thing.

[Julian Walker]

Because it's good detox. Odinus tells the story of this one.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Guy who was like this one, really.

[Julian Walker]

Pale and skinny, weak and frail and he had diarrhea every day for two years. But he never, never quit.

[Derek Barris]

And then he is like, I'm so glad I had all this diarrhea because it made him so healthy. He got tan and jacked and sexy and he started making all this money.

[Mallory DeMille]

Because he dumped so much toxins out of his colon through, you know, through his ass.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Like diarrhea is the second for strongest form of detox.

[Mallory DeMille]

So like the diarrhea, like it hasn't been inconvenient for me at all.

[Julian Walker]

And it's not because I'm eating like.

[Mallory DeMille]

Necessarily the raw food. The raw food doesn't cause it.

[Derek Barris]

It allows you to detox.

[Mallory DeMille]

Raw food allows you to detox and.

[Derek Barris]

It'S a great benefit.

[Mallory DeMille]

If you analyzed my diarrhea, you'd find.

[Derek Barris]

Toxins in it from vaccines mostly. It's so good.

[Julian Walker]

I mean that so could be parody and, and he's, he's so just like. Sounds like a regular guy who is not really that well informed that he's just trying to spin this story. But oh my God, the examples, it's.

[Derek Barris]

Like old school JP Sears. Yeah, exactly what it comes across as like before it with, with the turn into anti vaxism. Right. But like that, that's where he.

[Matthew Rimsky]

It's also where the fre take has some power, I have to say because this guy is clearly making a virtue over skipping over or even reversing this kind of developmental stage. Like he's a literal diarrhea influencer. I think it's also where Leslie Voorhees and Kaylee means like they're going to have some choices to make about who's on their team and how far they want to take the raw craze. If their goal is respectability. Right.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And I just thought of this, that he's actually the folks who do this kind of stuff. They're revisiting something in the yoga tradition that the Agori sadhus do. These radical tantric sadhus who to prove to themselves and everyone else that they believe everything is divine, subsist only on rotting food and feces, and often eat rotting dead human bodies. Really wild.

[Mallory DeMille]

Yeah. Scott's approach is obviously on the extreme end of the spectrum, but it's still capturing interest from folks. And I actually had to update his increasing follower count a few time since I wrote this last week. So given everything, who's hungry.