Conspirituality Podcast Episode 247: "The Deeper State"

Release Date: March 6, 2025

Hosts: Derek Barris, Matthew Remsky, Julian Walker

1. Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 247, titled "The Deeper State," the hosts—journalist Derek Barris, cult researcher Matthew Remsky, and philosophical skeptic Julian Walker—delve into the intricate web of conspiracies intertwining with modern spirituality and wellness movements. This episode explores how figures within these spheres propagate misinformation, capitalize on crises, and align with extremist ideologies, culminating in a discussion about the historical and contemporary manifestations of the "deep state."

2. RFK Jr.'s Tenure at HHS and the Texas Measles Outbreak

The episode opens with a critical examination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his management of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) amid a concerning measles outbreak in Texas.

• Derek Barris highlights the severity of the outbreak:

  "In less than a month into RFK Jr.'s tenure running HHS, we've already stumbled into his first challenge, a measles outbreak in Texas that has seen 146 people fall ill and one child die from the disease."
  (02:47)

Kennedy's initial downplaying of the outbreak was swiftly followed by a controversial recommendation for vitamin A administration, sparking backlash within anti-vaccine communities.

• Barris further critiques Kennedy's stance:

  "Abundant from Kennedy's initial statement was any mention of vaccines. It took another day for him to say HHS is supporting the outbreak with MMR vaccines from his government..."
  (06:39)

This incident not only undermines public health efforts but also alienates Kennedy's supporters, leading to a significant backlash from prominent anti-vaccine figures like Aaron Elizabeth, Joseph Mercola's partner.

3. The Anti-Vaccine Narrative and Wellness Grifters

The discussion transitions to the pervasive anti-vaccine rhetoric propagated by wellness influencers and grifters who exploit public health crises for personal gain.

• Matthew Remsky questions the motivations behind the anti-vaccine stance:

  "They're doing it both as conspiracists and, as conspiracy theorists would predict, as rich guys pretending to be oppressed."
  (06:54)

Key figures such as Dr. Peter McCullough and influencers like Holistic Heidi are scrutinized for their roles in spreading misinformation and promoting supplements purported to prevent or mitigate measles.

• Remsky emphasizes the commercialization of fear:

  "Wellness influencers never waste a good sales opportunity actually thinking through the consequences of their beliefs or showing the slightest bit of empathy toward families that are suffering..."
  (15:17)

The episode also addresses the Informed Consent Project, an Instagram handle known for anti-vaccine misinformation, dissecting their flawed arguments regarding vaccine consent and the supposed benefits of measles infection.

4. Conspiracy Theorists and the Deep State Narrative

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to exploring how conspiracy theorists like Dan Bongino and Kash Patel have positioned themselves to influence governmental structures and public perception.

• Julian Walker provides context on Bongino's transformation:

  "Dan Bogino has spent the last decade building a career in right-wing media based on his sycophantic support of President Donald Trump and his willingness to engage in endless conspiracy theories..."
  (21:33)

Kash Patel's alignment with QAnon and his recent appointment as the new FBI Deputy Director illustrate the alarming intertwining of extremist ideologies with federal institutions.

• Derek Barris laments the corruption:

  "I'll say this on every episode we ever do, because you have to be a truly craven individual... But especially given the position he's just gotten at the FBI..."
  (23:29)

The hosts argue that such figures are not merely expressing dissent but are actively working to dismantle and repurpose governmental agencies to serve a hidden, authoritarian agenda.

5. Historical Context: McCarthyism and the Red Scare

To understand the current landscape, the hosts draw parallels between contemporary conspiratorial movements and historical events like McCarthyism and the Red Scares of the 20th century.

• Julian Walker traces the roots back to the 1790s:

  "John Robison... said that the Illuminati had infiltrated all Masonic lodges and they were behind the French Revolution and the Jacobins..."
  (30:22)

• Matthew Remsky connects these historical conspiracies to modern-day figures:

  "So here here is a nostalgic bit for you... The idea has continued to morph generation by generation."
  (31:01)

The discussion highlights how figures like Joe McCarthy utilized fearmongering and baseless accusations to consolidate power, drawing uneasy comparisons to today's conspiratorial rhetoric aimed at undermining trust in institutions like the FBI.

6. Analysis of Conspiracism and Its Psychological Underpinnings

The episode delves into theories surrounding conspiracism, referencing Richard Hofstadter's seminal work, "The Paranoid Style in American Politics," and discussing its relevance to contemporary movements.

• Julian Walker reflects on Hofstadter's analysis:

  "There is a style of mind... I call it the paranoid style simply because no other word adequately evokes the qualities of heated exaggeration, suspiciousness, and conspiratorial fantasy..."
  (55:00)

• Matthew Remsky expands on the psychological aspects:

  "Conspiracism has like two forms. There's a folk wisdom form... and then there's a fascist form..."
  (51:59)

The hosts argue that the natural human tendency toward suspicion and storytelling about oppression is exploited by reactionary forces to manipulate public sentiment and accumulate power. They emphasize the importance of understanding the cognitive and social mechanisms that make such conspiracies appealing and how they perpetuate division and misinformation.

7. Modern Implications and the Path Forward

Concluding the episode, the hosts reflect on the dangers posed by the convergence of conspiracy theories with spiritual and wellness movements. They stress the need for greater media literacy, critical thinking, and robust public discourse to counteract the spread of disinformation and the manipulation of spiritual beliefs for authoritarian ends.

• Derek Barris offers a sobering perspective:

  "This is an absolute nightmare and so many people are going to be harmed by people like Bongino and Patel and Kennedy."
  (25:09)

• Julian Walker underscores the destructive potential:

  "The same kind of cognitive process that's involved in prejudice... is susceptible to conspiracies."
  (60:44)

The episode serves as a clarion call to recognize and dismantle the dangerous interplay between conspiratorial thinking and spiritual exploitation, urging listeners to remain vigilant and informed.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Derek Barris on power dynamics:

  "Power. You can see what I'm out."
  (02:47)

• Matthew Remsky on informed consent:

  "If it was, then they would have to take responsibility for the things you're mentioning."
  (12:38)

• Julian Walker on historical conspiracies:

  "John Robison... said that the Illuminati had infiltrated all Masonic lodges..."
  (30:22)

• Dan Bongino on the FBI:

  "If there were no communists in our government, why did we delay..."
  (44:14)

• Richard Hofstadter reference:

  "There is a style of mind... the paranoid style..."
  (55:00)

Conclusion

Episode 247 of Conspirituality meticulously dissects the entanglement of conspiracy theories with modern spiritual and wellness movements, drawing insightful parallels with historical events like McCarthyism. Through critical analysis and historical context, the hosts illuminate the persistent and evolving nature of conspiratorial thinking in American politics and society. This episode serves as an essential resource for understanding how power, misinformation, and spirituality intersect to shape contemporary challenges.