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- [00:01]
Derek Barris
Location the lab.
- [00:02]
Matthew Remsky
Quentin only has 24 hours to sell his car. Is that even possible? He goes to Carvana.com.
- [00:08]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
What is this, a movie trailer?
- [00:10]
Derek Barris
He ignores the doubters, enters his license plate.
- [00:14]
Matthew Remsky
Wow, that's a great offer. The car is sold.
- [00:17]
Derek Barris
But will Carvana pick it up in time for it?
- [00:19]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning.
- [00:21]
Matthew Remsky
Done with the dramatics.
- [00:23]
Derek Barris
Car selling in record time.
- [00:26]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today. Pickup fees may apply.
- [00:31]
Matthew Remsky
Fellas, you know Degree Cool Rush deodorant, right? Well, last year they changed the formula and guys were mad about it. One dude even started a petition. So guess what? Degree heard us, admitted they messed up and brought the original Cool Rush scent back exactly how it was. And it's in Walmart, Target and other stores now for under $4. So grab some and remember why its cool, crisp and fresh scent made it the number one men's antiperspirant for the last decade. Degree Cool Rush is back and it smells like victory for all of us foreign.
- [01:13]
Derek Barris
Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.
- [01:24]
Matthew Remsky
I'm Matthew Remsky.
- [01:26]
Derek Barris
You can find us on Instagram and threads at Conspirituality Pod. We are also all individual individually on Blue Sky. You can search our names there. You can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on patreon@patreon.com conspirituality if you are an Apple podcast user, you can grab our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support.
- [01:59]
Matthew Remsky
This is episode 255, a Maha Wellness Scam at Ontario Place with Bruce Van Deaton and Ann Elizabeth Sampson. So Doug Ford's Progressive Conservative government in Ontario has leased the public space of Ontario Place to the Thermae Spa company with the promise to bring wellness and democracy to the good citizens of Toronto for a price.
- [02:34]
Derek Barris
Okay, Matthew, we'll talk about on Ontario Place. And I know you're going to break it down a little bit for listeners who aren't aware. I did not know about it before you brought this story to my attention, but let's just pull back a moment and talk about spas in general because they are an important part of this story. Yeah, they date back to ancient Greece, Rome and China. And relaxing in hot springs and communing in public baths is a form of healing has been around for thousands of years. And it continues today. I am a huge fan of thermal baths and salt baths. I've visited hot springs when I was in Morocco and Hungary and Mexico. I've gone all throughout the U.S. wherever I go, I look to see if they have some sort of public bath culture. And this became such a part of life in Europe that spa towns emerged hundreds of years ago. And the first such American tradition started in Saratoga, Saratoga Springs, New York in the early 19th century. Now, by the middle of the century, spa resorts centered around mineral or hot Springs in 20 states. And they combine soaking with dancing and horse racing and even gambling.
- [03:44]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [03:44]
Derek Barris
You had sanatoriums, which were next. And they began offering alternative treatments for conditions like tuberculosis. An early proponent of this model was John Harvey Kellogg, someone we've talked about before wrote about in our book. His Battle Creek Sanatorium in Michigan combined exercise and hydrotherapy with diet advice, a tradition that is still a major selling point in today's retreats, for example.
- [04:11]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah. So just to refresh our listeners memory, Kellogg was really interested in strict daily routines, in cleansing practices that would purge toxins. And he had a real spiritual health obsession. He was a Seventh Day Adventist who was really big on abstinence. And these things are around today as well, but they kind of conceal the eugenics and racial segregationist views that were integral to Kellogg's movement at the time. He definitely wanted his white clients to frolic in nature and all of the boys to eat cornflakes so that they would stop masturbating. I don't know how that works. But he also really wanted to rid society of imbeciles and to end patterns of race mingling. So his sanitarium was also a think tank site for these ideas, where he hosted the first national conference on race betterment in 1913, at which he hosted more than 400 eugenics experts from across the country. I'm sure they all enjoyed the spas. They all gathered and they sweated and they talked about their wonderful ideas. And as we'll sort of mention later, to an extent, RFK Jr. Is bringing some of those old timey values back.
- [05:28]
Derek Barris
Oh yeah, we're all going to wellness camps here in America. That is our destination. I want to flag that. This Sunday the Guardian asked me to write their essay of the week and I wrote it on RFK junior Soft Eugenics. And I do discuss the wellness camps briefly. So if you're, if you're a reader of that publication, that'll be there. But back to spas and what we're really looking at here is the difference between these watering holes as public gathering places, which I think is just beautiful and probably very healthy in a lot of ways, and the privatization of them because they've basically always been privately operated. In America. Government run institutions did emerge in the 19th century, but these asylums were reserved for the mentally ill. As you flagged Matthew, a lot of people were not mentally ill at the time, but they were put in that category, right? Autism was a subset of subtype of schizophrenia, for example. And this is all where moral treatment emerged. So these were small facilities that brought together people in natural environments where they were able to converse socially as a form of healing. And the general idea was that you leave the stresses of society, you get to commune and interact with others and you felt better. Now, while they provided therapeutic environments with gardens, fresh air and structured routines, their primary function was custodial care for the mentally ill or who they perceived to be not. Holistic wellness or voluntary retreat experiences so much different. Most true wellness retreats catered to those who could afford them. These asylums showed promising results early on, but they didn't distinguish between admissions and readmissions, so the data were likely skewed. Now regardless, by mid century these asylums became overcrowded and underfunded and there were a lot of reports of abuse going on. They faded by the late 19th century with the advent of biomedicine interventions like antibiotics and vaccines. Many conditions that people were sent to asylums for could be treated quickly and effectively at home. So the institutions weren't as prevalent either. Now privately owned retreats continued and they received a big boost in the 60s as the culture shifted back big time door toward alternative medicine. The wellness retreat took new form as centers blended yoga and Ayurveda with luxury and hospitality. They were glamping, right? The counterculture that welcomed centers like Esalen, which opened in 62 and Canyon Ranch 79. Then they had to endure Reaganomics. And this is where the modern wellness industry reached a crossroads. Reaganomics deregulatory stance was applied to health care. The idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps became the Right's deflection from discussing socialized medicine. Now to be clear, they didn't start that argument, but they certainly mastered it. And so on one side you had the chipping away of New Deal and post New Deal social services that continues today, While figures like Dr. Oz speak about the importance of personal response responsibility during his swearing in ceremony as the new administrator of the CMS. So we get to Oz and his boss RFK Jr. Who have both repeatedly stated that socialized medicine is not on the table. Kennedy rehashed an old argument in his congressional hearing saying it's not fair that a smoker would get the same benefits as someone who eats organic and exercises and they would be a drain on the system. Now, oddly, he never points out that smokers often pay higher insurance premiums, which ruins his they're taking more from the pool argument. But this is all indicative of what this entire administration is about, which is pushing as much health care along with everything else to the private market.
- [09:28]
Matthew Remsky
And it seems to be based on this like misunderstanding or, I don't know, willful distortion. Because the whole argument about taking more from the pool, it conceals something that I think is crucial from a socialized medicine point of view. Like insurance itself is a form of communistic distribution of costs and risks. That's how it works. So societies that commit to it, they know that people go into and out of periods of higher needs. They go into and out of the surplus labor pool. You are, and then you aren't capable of working depending on what's happening in your life. So you can abstain from every bad behavior for your entire life and then still rack up hundreds of thousands in costs through an accident or end of life care. So the pool in socialized medicine just doesn't keep score on an individual basis because it doesn't make sense logically. It doesn't make sense morally either. So when my neighbor has a heart attack, needs emergency care, I am never in the position of wondering what are they stealing from me? Which is kind of what the Oz and RFK Jr are pulling on with their idea of the pool like this. It's just life. The pool is life. So what Oz and Bobby are really driving at is they're targeting individuals who would decrease profits that somebody could make from the pool, namely the insurance company.
- [10:51]
Derek Barris
Right. What did RFK Jr say first about autistic people? Children? That they won't pay taxes.
- [10:58]
Matthew Remsky
They won't pay taxes.
- [10:59]
Derek Barris
As if that was the most important thing. Yeah. So what you you get in all of this is Mark Hyman joining Kennedy Oz and Marty Macari for a public event in which it's announced that food companies have voluntarily agreed to remove eight food dyes from foods by the end of 2026. MAHA stands are calling it a ban. And that is completely false. And as Dr. Andrea Love pointed out in a recent essay on Immunologic, the the natural dyes that will be replacing them are up to 10 times more expensive. So There goes your free market argument for all these foods. And many people have allergies to these natural dyes and you're not going to know you're eating them. So there could be a lot of bad effects from that. So this whole thing is. Kennedy and crew have had this toothless marking opportunity, opportunity here. And the work of dismantling health and human services just continues unabated.
- [11:59]
Matthew Remsky
So just let me get this clear. So the, the dyes that are proposed to be removed, have they actually been. They've gone through certain testing with regard to the allergenic responses and the dyes that will replace them maybe haven't.
- [12:13]
Derek Barris
No. I mean, people can be allergic to the synthetic dyes, but they are well tolerated for the most part.
- [12:19]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [12:20]
Derek Barris
What Dr. Love is arguing is that people there, people just have allergies to a lot of natural ingredients. And specifically some of the substances that are used in dyes tend to have high allergic responses.
- [12:33]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [12:34]
Derek Barris
So if you are now happy that you're. Whenever food is dyed with a natural color and you don't realize you're allergic to something, that can be a real problem.
- [12:43]
Matthew Remsky
Well, or you eat it and then Bobby tells you that because you're eating pure food, you're going through a purification. Right?
- [12:50]
Derek Barris
That's it.
- [12:50]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah, yeah, you're developing a rash and the toxins are coming out because actually homeopathically you are reacting to the different sort of color in a different way and it'll all be fine.
- [13:02]
Derek Barris
I think Children's Health Defense doing a documentary on homeopathy and really pushing it hard, probably should be an episode down the road because that's been kind of a mind boggling pivot. I mean, it makes sense because if you're not taking vaccines, homeopathy is something that's long been presented, it's complete bullshit, but as something that can strengthen your immune system.
- [13:21]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [13:22]
Derek Barris
So that, that is, that is its own episode. But let's just move on with the spa culture here.
- [13:27]
Matthew Remsky
All right, so our core story today is about how the logic of privatization and for profit self care ripple out from the ground zero of this old American style project and how they ride the coattails of decades of neoliberal deregulation and neglect and become another front in the conflict of just how much capitalism will be invited to expand and administrate like everything. And a big part of the background here is an intensification of the commodified presentation of nature and the natural, especially for modern urbanites. So Derek, one thing that we didn't talk about with regard to Kellogg's Battle Creek Sanitarium was that it was an enormous complex. When it was rebuilt after a fire in 1902, it shook out to 30 buildings on 30 acres. They had the capacity to host 1300 guests. And it was plopped down right in the middle of a bustling and growing town that Kellogg hoped would become a model for regenerating urban hygiene according to the principles of natural and divine law that he adhered to. But to do that, of course, you have to rip up and enclose and privatize a ton of what would otherwise be green space in a town. And then you have to argue that it's worth it because selling people wellness is more effective than supporting organic community function. So, to be fair, I do want to say that Kellogg's Christian sense of charity prompted some public service and pragmatic efforts. So he did support sanitation projects in Chicago. He supported social services for underemployed men in various places. And so this mixed private, public model has been around for a long time, and we can see its tensions and contradictions play out in this interview that I'm going to do with Bruce and Elizabeth about our case study today of Ontario Place. So, Ontario Place, I'm going to get to some basics, Derek, but I just wanted to ask you, do you have a childhood or young person experience with some kind of public space going back to your New Jersey days through which you can track, you know, the various changes in political economy and the ways in which we experience gathering together and doing things?
- [15:43]
Derek Barris
I didn't realize it at the time because when I was young, we would go annually in my school to somewhere called the Garden State Arts Center. It's located in Holmdel, which is about a half an hour from the shore. It's just, just around the Princeton area, a little further down. And I went to my first concert there. I probably was there about 10 times before high school. And it is also now famous right across the parkway from the building that's used in Severance, the office building where everything happens. So, so you have. You have this really beautiful amphitheater that's on a hill that's. That flows down and holds thousands of people. And in. In 96, it was renamed the PNC Bank Arts Center. And I never called it that, even when I would continue to go to concerts after that. So it's owned by the New Jersey Turnpike Authority. In 1954, legislation created the parkway to run throughout New Jersey, and the legislation called for a cultural recreational center to be placed there. It opened in 1968, and in the early days, it mixed classical programming and concerts with free programming for children and senior citizens and the disadvantaged and disabled. It expanded in 96 when PNC bank bought the naming rights in order to fund it. And I will say that two state senators push back against the bank, refusing to keep Garden State in the name. Yeah, and they actually passed legislation in 96 to remove all state funds from PNC banks because of it. The PNC banks wouldn't budge. It has been that name ever since. And shortly after, Live Nation took over operations, they do continue to work with a nonprofit called the Garden State Arts Foundation. So there is free probate programming every year. But this is an example of somewhere that was really created as a public good, a public service right in the center of New Jersey for people and really serve that function for decades and then being privatized. And you also just saw the ticket prices go up dramatically after Live Nation took it over. And it's really sad. It's still a beautiful venue. If I lived there, I would still probably regularly go there for shows. I think the last show I saw there was shade, probably 20 years ago. It was absolutely fantastic. But. But it really suc that just like, with so many stadiums across the nation, you now have to call something after a bank, because it's all just about, like, it's just a marketing opportunity for these corporations.
- [18:11]
Matthew Remsky
You know, I don't want to get too, like, deep psychology here, but it does end up meaning that you. You attend public events in a place that is named for something that doesn't reflect where you are. Right. It's. It's. It's as if, you know, going back to. To what's right, the Garden State Art center, which is what we'll call it on this show. It's like if. If, you know, Lumen had naming rights over some, you know, sports stadium or something like that in New Jersey. It's very strange.
- [18:46]
Derek Barris
They did such a good job on severance, though. Like, of sure. I just binged it with my wife. So we finished season two two days ago. And just how much they nailed the little things that had the Lumen logo on it. And it is really with the story we're telling today. The fact that they're so close in prox and the way that they position the corporate culture was just spot on.
- [19:07]
Matthew Remsky
What's wild about your story is that Live Nation also plays a role in the Ontario Place story, because at first they ran something called the Molson Amphitheater, which is now the Budweiser stage. So now we attend concerts, you know, that are named after beer brands. But this comes after the free public venue that was part of Ontario Place, which was called the Forum, was underfunded by the province. So the wheelers and dealers just swept in at a certain point and started to privatize things. It made me think that, you know, Naomi Klein talks about disaster capitalism, but this is something more like neglect capitalism, where the state kind of loses interest and imagination and people start feeling like, you know, the bureaucrats aren't really trying to make it a fun place anymore. So, as Bruce will get into in the interview a little bit, Ontario Place comes out of this post war period in the 1960s in Canada, which was really a boom time. There were budget surpluses, there was this ripe post war optimism, and it rippled throughout North America and Western Europe. And a lot of publicly oriented projects came out of this time. 1967, we have Montreal's Expo, we have the Chicago World's Fair, Crystal Palace. And Ontario Place was kind of like our local answer that emerged as this futuristic idea of blended architecture, technology and nature and this sense that the ravages of urbanization could be restored or maybe transformed or forgiven or something like that. Because the islands that Ontario Place was built on in the middle of Lake Ontario were formed from landfill waste that was pulled out of the construction of the Toronto subway, right? So it was this manufactured mix of nature preserve and Star Trek optimism. There was something called the Cinesphere, which was the world's first permanent IMAX theater. There were suspended exhibition pods over a lagoon in the first year, 1971, this is the year I'm born. Two and a half million visitors. And the admission is six cents, or, sorry, the admission is 50 cents and 25 cents for kids. And the following year, you know, they had a. They lost money, so they jacked it to $1.50 and then 75 cents. So that's about $15 in today's money. And as we'll hear, the baseline entrance fee for the public space now that's going to be administered by Thermae is 40 bucks. Now, in my interview with Bruce and Ann Elizabeth, they'll also describe the decline of Ontario Place through the years, but also how in the early 2000s, the parts of Ontario Place that have been closed and fallen into disrepair, they rewilded and continued to attract up to a million visitors per year who paid nothing to hike and bike and sun themselves on this beautiful patch of green space in this gorgeous lake that was, you know, in walking distance from the southern edge of downtown. And I think this is my favorite part of the story, that wherever there's green space, people will just use it. And if people use it, other people will start plotting out ways to monetize it. And that's sort of where it's going at this point. So Bruce and Elizabeth cover a lot of territory in our interview on how this new lease to the Therm Spa company carries all of the hallmarks of not just privatization, but Maha era grifting. This is a company that's overstated their qualifications and their solvency. The study processes and administrative sort of hurdles have all been fudged or faked. They have made up these weird benefits for what are essentially leisure class activities, including the claim that their water park complex will enhance democracy. And the whole thing just pushes the entire discourse towards the benefits of private wellness. And this is at a very sort of crucial time in, I would say, Canadian and Ontario history with regard to how we understand our public health care system. Because we in this country now have an emerging fascist government to the south of us. And you know, Derek and your puppy Tempo, you are our only line of defense at this point. The line hunter, right. It's a government that is openly engaging eugenics policies wrapped up in wellness commercialism. And the Ford government here is not going so far. But we know that there are trends and there are influences. There are skids, usually right words. There are shifts in overton windows and the Therme project is trending in that direction. So that, you know, if we're Speaking on Tuesday, April 29, the election was yesterday. Nationally, if Pierre Poilievre had won yesterday, and he didn't, you know, this development would quickly become a national model for defunding more and more public health spaces and monetizing more wellness BS in its stead, and in response to Trump waging a trade war and talking openly about annexation, you know, the country I live in has had to resurrect this really old debate about Canadian identity. And it's really silly. It's based on hockey, beaver tales on the Rideau Canal. We're not talking too much about genocide and residential schools as we talk about, you know, Canadian pride. And the question really is, what makes this country not a client state or not the 51st state? And in my opinion, we don't really have an answer to that. That doesn't foreground the 1960s commitment to social democracy. These are the core ways in which Canada has attempted to distinguish itself from the US and to assuage at least some of its colonial guilt, which is through the adoption of social welfare policies, including the protection of public space and enormous parklands. Now, these gifts have always been unequally accessible, but there has been an aspiration there. And so now Doug Ford and the Progressive Conservative government here in Ontario is locked into what is basically a Trump style fraudulent real estate deal dressed up in RFK Jr. BS. And you know, it looks like it's degrading all of the assets that even a nationalist like Ford says that he wants to protect. All right, so after our break, we're going to speak to Bruce Van Deaton and Ann Elizabeth Sampson. These are my fellow Toronto residents. They sit on the steering committee for Ontario Place for All.
- [25:51]
Derek Barris
Julian here with a quick psa. Call your mom on Mother's Day. It's what she really wants, much more than another robe or whatever other generic gift you're thinking of getting for her. But if you are going to get her a gift, think about the Aura digital picture frame. These are great. I sent one to my own mom. She lives in the middle of England, really far away and we have a small child and it's important to all of us that we get to keep up with her on what's going going on in our family. And there are just some images, some videos you don't want to put on social media. And so for her to have this amazing digital display that sits right on her desk or on the mantelpiece and is able to be updated remotely, it's great. Aura has a wonderful deal right now for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver matte frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Conspirituality. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.
- [27:01]
Matthew Remsky
Parents of tweens, if you're familiar with far off drop offs.
- [27:04]
Derek Barris
Dad, stop.
- [27:04]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Stop. Stop right here. Or get DMS about what's for dinner. You may be experiencing tween milestones for your son or daughter. These can start at age 9. HPV vaccination, a type of cancer prevention against certain HPV related cancers, can start then too.
- [27:19]
Matthew Remsky
For most, HPV clears on its own. But for those who don't clear the virus, it can cause certain cancers later in life.
- [27:25]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Embrace this phase, help protect them in the next. Ask their doctor today about HPV vaccination. Brought to you by Merck this episode is brought to you by GMC. When you have four new tires, every drive feels fresh. Right now, buy three select tires and get one for just a dollar during the GMC Certified Service Fresh Start Tire event. Visit gmc.com ServiceOffers or see Dealer for full details at participating USGM dealers only. Highest or equal value tire will be $1. Offer ends 531 2025. Not available with other offers.
- [28:01]
Matthew Remsky
Bruce and Ann Elizabeth, welcome to Conspirituality podcast where you know we track the tycoon takeover of public spaces to replace all of the wokeness with for profit wellness. So you are among friends here. Welcome to the show.
- [28:16]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Thanks for having us.
- [28:16]
Bruce Van Deaton
Thank you.
- [28:17]
Matthew Remsky
Okay, so just a little bit of background for non Canadians, non Ontarians. I'd like to stroll down memory lane just to start. Ontario place opens in 1971. That's actually my birth year. What was in the air at the time? What was the buzz? How did this project connect with other public space projects around the world and what were the themes involved?
- [28:45]
Bruce Van Deaton
Well, fortunately I was a teenager in the 60s, so I do have some remembrance of what it was like. And I think everybody understands that. The 60s and 70s were certainly a time of great change. We'd come out of the war, we were a powerful nation at that point and we were booming. We adopted our first Bill of Rights in the early 60s and 65. We adopted our flag, the red and white with the red maple leaf at the center. And we had a few final legal ties with the British crown, but they would disappear soon enough. The precursor to our universal Medicare came to Canada in the 60s. Neil Young and Joni Mitchell were playing in Yorkville cafes and the Guess who were singing about getting away from an American woman, a not so veiled nod at American dominance and culture, finance, basically everything in Canada. Ontario was growing, but Toronto was still pretty sleepy. But Expo 67 in Montreal woke the country up and Toronto with it in 70. Sorry, in 1971, Ontario Place opened and that was our answer to Expo 67. It was the to be a showcase of Canadian architectural and engineering prowess. And all the steel, et cetera, was manufactured in Ontario, I believe. The the entire project was done in Ontario and it was built by Canadian workers. It was the expression of unstoppable enthusiasm, Canadian pride, and a nationalism that is more overt than ever before.
- [30:13]
Matthew Remsky
Anne Elizabeth, did you want to add anything to that?
- [30:15]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Well, I think it was. It's important to note that it was. It was built by a progressive conservative government at a time of great optimism and really wanting to take pride in Ontario culture and Ontario Innovation, which, you know, when we, when we start talking about its demise, makes it even more sad.
- [30:38]
Matthew Remsky
Before we get to the demise, let's just talk about what it felt like to go there. I'll just pull on a memory of my own about going to the Forum, which was the music amphitheater there. I remember, you know, you could pay whatever it was, an $8 admission to the park per person or something like that. And you could spend the afternoon on water slides. You could go around to the, you know, to the weird futuristic buildings and whatever museum displays they had on. And then you could go and see, like, Judy Collins or Gordon Lightfoot playing in the round, sitting on the grass. So help me out. How did we afford all of that? Why was that so cheap and available for everybody? How did the commies pay for all of that? Where did the money go? And what has changed in Toronto and the province and the world?
- [31:31]
Bruce Van Deaton
Well, I can't tell you exactly where the money went, and I don't know exactly how they paid for it. But again, the 60s were a different time. We were in surpluses for most of the 60s. Well, for all of the 60s. It was only in the 70s that we started to run deficits. So there was money available and there was a, There was a, you know, a pride that came out that wanted to find its way in terms of expression like Ontario Place. And it was the surpluses really, that drove the. Our ability to be able to do these bigger things. Again, Medicare came out as part of it, and that's, that's, that's how the commies worked it. And in fact, it was the Progressive Conservatives who were the. Who you would never describe as commies, right, who, who, who initiated many of these projects. And, and, and they're wonderful projects. They were projects that really expressed great civic pride. They were done well and they were motivated by good intentions.
- [32:27]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
I think it's a super interesting example of a time and a, you know, a government and when governments were investing in public spaces, right. They, the. Even the design of Ontario Places is a modernist kind of vision come true, which, quite frankly, there were many, many modernist projects on the books, but very few of them were actually built around the world. You've got the Sans Pompidou in Paris and just a couple of others. So Ontario Place was built with a great optimism for Canada, for Ontario. And it really was built as a showcase. My favorite fact about it is that it was the, the site of the first children's ball pit. Oh, my gosh, that was Invented in Ontario. The ball pit.
- [33:17]
Matthew Remsky
Oh, I think I remember, wasn't. Was sort of enclosed by netting, wasn't it?
- [33:23]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
I think so. And, and you know, the first IMAX theater, which is also a Canadian Ontario invention.
- [33:31]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [33:32]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
So, you know, it really was designed to be sort of a place where you would go and feel proud to be an Ontarian, which I think, you know, when we think of that now, it's hard to imagine how we would actually define that.
- [33:47]
Matthew Remsky
Yes, this is all they've taken away from us. The ball pit, the IMAX, the $8 admission to Judy Collins. But the site went on to go into decline at a certain point. And as somebody, I was away from Toronto for about years and I kind of lost track of what happened or what was happening at Ontario Place through the, you know, early 2000s. I know that the Forum was closed down. I know that the Molson Amphitheater was constructed and that became more of a big ticket concert experience for people. But the site in general has gone through a period of decline and, and neglect somewhat. How has that worked out? Why did that happen?
- [34:35]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
As you said, it was kind of slowly, slowly changed over the years. So, you know, the first thing you mentioned is the Forum was closed and a deal was made with Live Nation, which, and you know, the Molson Amphitheater was built. So that was kind of. So the site was getting kind of carved off. And I would also argue that it was starved. You know, it was underfunded by successive governments and it was not invested in. And so as it was starved, eventually most of the attractions closed. However, there were certain things that stayed open. The Sinosphere stayed open until just a couple of years ago when the province finally shut everything down and many, many people were still using the site. So it was kind of like a, I guess it was a little bit like going to a closed theme park where you could walk around, you could see the log flume, you could, you know, you could kind of, you could skateboard in the former, like water parks, areas you could kind of explore in a, in a, in a bit of a wild space is what it became. And people were still really using it. I personally went to a really fabulous Dine Blanche pop up dinner party with thousands of people just a couple of years ago. But many, many people continue to use the site for bird watching, swimming, kayaking, dog walking, cycling, gathering, picnicking, exploring, and just generally finding a respite from the life of the city. We really saw this, this balloon in the pandemic when people were really desperate for public space. And places to be outside. And this site sitting right on Lake Ontario was really just a very peaceful escape from the city for many people who felt extremely trapped. And so entirely new communities built up around people who were using it all the time. And so, you know, a lot of times when it's described as being sort of derelict and unused, it was derelict for sure. It needed some investment and some new vision, but it definitely wasn't unused because the people of Toronto, especially Ontarians, are, you know, really desperate for additional green space. And so that's how it was, that's how it became used over the last few years.
- [37:13]
Bruce Van Deaton
I think a big part of the reason why Ontario Place started to go down was certainly the underfunding, but a big part of it was the competition too, with Canada's Wonderland opening up.
- [37:21]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [37:22]
Bruce Van Deaton
That changed the dynamics quite a bit. Ontario Place was really geared really well for like 0 to 12 years old. But I know my kids, by the time they got to be 12 or 13, Ontario Place held no, no great adventure for them. They wanted to go to Ontario, to Canada's Wonderland. And I think that that had a, a great effect on what happened to Ontario Place. The, perhaps the most interesting part of that is because where it's located, it's near major highway hubs and it's not going downtown Toronto to go to Ontario Place to go downtown Toronto was, was not as easy as going to Canada's Wonderland. So why would you bother? I think that's going to come into play when this, when this structure goes up, when this new development is finally in hand.
- [38:08]
Matthew Remsky
Right, because the current government is going to have to get over the transit issues and the congestion problems actually getting down to okay, I understand what you're saying, but Ann Elizabeth, you tell a really kind of interesting story about how a provincial and a national Pride, civic Pride project goes through an institutional phase in which it's well used. And this is part of my own rosy memory. But then as it falls out of the sort of, you know, sphere of public services, as the funding is withdrawn, people don't abandon it. Actually, it gives me this sense that like, as governments pull back through the neoliberal era, that people will find stuff to do in their same favorite places anyway. And I kind of really love, you know, it's not a post apocalyptic scene, but I do have this feeling of kind of over the overgrown water parks that people are skateboarding in as being a real public benefit. And it would take a lot of imagination, I think, on the part of city administrators to say, okay, well, how can we preserve, you know, some, some of that heritage almost in ruins form as this transitions into a public park. And I think that would have been the other fork in the road. But we're going to talk about where it actually goes because this is now property that has been assigned by the current Conservative government under Premier Doug Ford to be leased for 95 years to the Thermae Wellness Company. And the problem is right off the top is that in the application process, a couple of things went awry with regard to public consultation and whether or not this company was above board and whether they were entirely honest. So can you just run down the bullet points of what's gone wrong here and what the Attorney General said in their audit of the contract?
- [40:16]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
I'll give it a try. It's a very complicated story and it would take this entire podcast to really go through all of the ins and outs of what we've seen our government do here. The RFP process, according to the Auditor General General, was flawed and favored this company, Therma, more than any other of the proposals, including Ontario based proposals. The Auditor General also noted that the company did not appear to have enough money in the bank to take on.
- [40:47]
Matthew Remsky
The project, which is, which is kind of an essential point.
- [40:52]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Yes, yes. However, the government signed a lease with the company. It's for 95 years and allows them to basically do what they want on the site once the thing is built. The company itself is building their facility and they're also increasing the size of the island in order to. So the, the spa and water park we often call the mega spa is an indoor facility that is sort of like a stadium or it's a stadium size. You could think of it as a mall maybe with only, you know, with pools and palm trees and, you know, there's a water park area, there'll be like, you know, quiet areas for adults. And the company in or in addition to building their own facility, they are building what they're calling public realm space, which is, you know, pub paths around the facility and some garden areas that are supposed to be accessible to the public, but they also will control those for a big part of the time. So that's the other really weird thing about the lease, is that not only are they building their own, their own business, but they also are being contracted with by our government to build and maintain public space which they can monetize at their will.
- [42:20]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [42:21]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
So that's another, that's one of the other kind of pieces. The cost to the taxpayers of Ontario have ballooned so you know, when we started this fight, we kind of were, we would nervously say, oh, we think it's going to be $400 million of taxpayer money. Well, the, the auditor general said it's almost $2.3 billion now. And that's also, it's, that's missing a lot of costs. So you mentioned the transportation. We don't know about that. We don't know about how they're going to build parking facilities. There's a number of things which may cause that number to go even, even higher. And then the other thing is in order to avoid consultation and scrutiny and accountability, the government actually passed a law allowing themselves to do whatever they want on the site, basically with no recourse. So it's a very unusual project and for your listeners, it's in the city of Toronto, but the land, it's itself was built, the islands were built in the 70s so they, the land didn't exist before Ontario Place and as such the province of Ontario, the government of Ontario owns the land and controls the land. And so this is why it's in a, it's in a very strange gray zone of, of kind of oversight. So the city, the, the province has been able to basically tell the city they're going to do whatever they want. They no longer have to go through, you know, an application review or any of those other processes which any other developer would have to do. And so it makes it a very unusual project in that way.
- [44:15]
Matthew Remsky
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Ann Elizabeth Sampson
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Matthew Remsky
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Ann Elizabeth Sampson
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- [45:34]
Matthew Remsky
I want to just go back to the description that you gave Ann Elizabeth of the planned building site because I think this is going to tie into the type of language that's being used to sell this particular project, which is our next topic. When I was away from Toronto, part in, during part of that time I was in rural Wisconsin and I lived in a small vacation town called Lake Delton, which was close to a place called Wisconsin Dells. And Wisconsin Dells was like an old resort sort of venue that the, the rich folks from Chicago and mobsters as well would come up to in the 20s and 30s. And there were a number of resorts that had recently taken over the sort of mom and pop theme park outlets in Wisconsin Dells. And one of them was called the Great Wolf Lodge. And I think it was the first one that was established in Lake Delton and I actually worked there in services as a waiter for a while. And you know, if listeners haven't been in one of these very large indoor water park type spa places, they are enormous. All of the vegetation is imported, if it's vegetation at all. It's going to be a mixture of, you know, you know, palm trees and plastic things. But the entire building smells of chlorine, like, because the water park part of the spa part of this thing is the largest part of the building. And you know, there's a number of entrances and exits to it and they all, you know, go to the inside of the, you know, of where the, where the services are and the hotel rooms and so on. And everything is kind of off in terms of temperature as well. Right. Like it's a climate controlled, very humid environment. And I guess, is this the kind of thing that you're envisioning being plopped down now right in the middle of this, of this, you know, heritage property?
- [47:53]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
So I would say that if you imagine the Great Wolf Lodge, for those of you who have ever been, I've certainly taken my children to the one in Niagara Falls, then you multiply it by probably, I don't know, four or five times the size of this facility is the size of a stadium, right? We, the volume of the building that's being proposed for the west island on Ontario Place is the same volume as at BMO Field across the street, which is where our, our professional soccer team plays, right? And you know, instead of four or five pools, this thing is supposed to have 17.
- [48:36]
Matthew Remsky
Oh my gosh. Okay.
- [48:37]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
And the other thing I would note is that we've done some work around how many people, they're saying, need to come to this thing to make it financially viable. And it's many thousands a day.
- [48:50]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [48:51]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Which when you imagine your experience at Great Wolf Lodge, my guess is there were, I don't know, one in 2000, you know, maybe three a day. But something like that is probably, I think, Bruce, what did they say? 14,000 is the target for the daily, which means as well that they plan to run it like almost 24 hours a day. And you know, there's this idea that you go to be, you know, you go to be calm and you go to connect. But I think, and I think the general idea is that you send your kids to the Great Wolf Lodge part and you, the adults can go and relax in the adult part. But it's certainly, it's not a concept that has been built yet in North America. There is one in Romania that the company has built itself and it's actually only half the size of the proposed, the proposed facility in Toronto. And they've now, you know, they're working on building them around the world. But it's definitely a concept that we haven't yet that scene. And it's, it's definitely more of like a theme park water attraction than a relaxation and wellness facility.
- [50:08]
Matthew Remsky
Well, speaking of relaxation and wellness, I don't think either of you are big time yoga and wellness people. I'm not sure. But I, I guess it was kind of a surprise for you to start to pick up that the Thermay Spa company was using some strange language to sell the takeover of this public space. How did you clue into that?
- [50:32]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Well, this is one of the things actually that got me interested in this fight for Ontario Place. And it's because, you know, I actually didn't grow up in Toronto. I was not connected to that original vision of Ontario Place. But I am a swimmer and a rower and I love the lake. I spend a lot of time on it and in it. And from this I get incredible wellness. Right. I find, you know, I'm getting exercise, it's very peaceful, it's very refreshing. But this is not what's being proposed, which is a commoditized version of that. And what I find fascinating is how they can, they don't just conflate the wellness benefits of swimming and soaking or being in this artificial environment. That's not enough. They've also gone to add in the importance of this facility for Our democracy. Oh, which is really where it gets.
- [51:27]
Matthew Remsky
Fascinating, because there's 14,000 people a day who have to come and spend their money to hang out with each other. And they'll speak, they'll talk, they'll talk with each other. It'll be like the Roman spas.
- [51:38]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
That's exactly what they try to say. They. You know, I've got. I was in preparing for this interview, I was looking for the quotes that most enraged me. And, you know, just as Roman baths once served as essential centers for community connection, our therme will provide dynamic spaces where people gather and thrive, like museums and libraries. Today, every great city will soon count a therme as a vital urban amenity.
- [52:07]
Matthew Remsky
Oh, they're trying to turn the corporate term into, like, its own noun, like a. Yes, it's like a proper noun. Like, this is the thermae for this city. Yes, yes.
- [52:20]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
And, you know, I don't know how this particular thing is different than the hundreds of other spas in our province that are not supported by the taxpayers. But the marketing also, you know, it. It features people inside a building relaxing and looking up at a digital screen showing the trees. And they've cut down, we think, up near 1500 mature trees to make room for the spa. So they're destroying an actual outdoor experience and replacing it with a virtual one. But this democratic vision, they talk about the facilities in Europe as the most democratic spaces. And. And my favorite is they accuse the opponents of the project as not recognizing growing international trends in wellness, nutrition, sustainability, and therapy.
- [53:27]
Matthew Remsky
Oh, my God.
- [53:28]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
But they love to talk about.
- [53:29]
Matthew Remsky
They're so smug. They are so smug.
- [53:31]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
The smugness is astounding.
- [53:34]
Matthew Remsky
But who do you think is being attracted by that? That sounds like it is written for the government, you know, well, the government bought it. The government bought it. Okay, maybe. Maybe that's just part of the marketing language. You get that into the application. But, like, do I have it? Do you have any neighbors who would read that and not, like, smell a huge fart in the room?
- [53:56]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
But my favorite of all to all of the marketing is that therma is bringing to Canada a, quote, European appreciation for democratic water experience. So, I mean, is this democracy? You have to pay to get in? Yeah, you can only do it while you're wet.
- [54:17]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:21]
Bruce Van Deaton
You can only do it if you can afford it.
- [54:23]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah.
- [54:23]
Bruce Van Deaton
And I mean, in that sense, it is going back to the old demos of the. Of the, you know, the Greek. The Greek experience where you had to be a senator to sit to make the democratic decisions.
- [54:34]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [54:34]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
I mean it's just astounding here how they conflate, you know, they conflate a lot of things in their assertions about what its benefits will be for our community. And you know, it's a tourist attraction, right?
- [54:48]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah.
- [54:49]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
It's not gonna be a civic space where people are gonna gather and do.
- [54:55]
Matthew Remsky
Robert's Rules over what the next sort of attraction should be or what their next activity should be. Nobody's gonna like get together and say, okay, well let's do the steam bath at 2:15. Does everybody agree? And then they'll vote no, it's not going to be like that.
- [55:10]
Bruce Van Deaton
Yeah.
- [55:11]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
And you know, like even the wellness claims, you know, they're very conflated as well. They, they talk about it's a place you can be active 365 days a year. As a swimmer, I'm not sure how sitting in a pool was, is equated with being active.
- [55:27]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah.
- [55:28]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Because there's not a single one of the pools they're building in there for swimming. Right, right. It's, It's.
- [55:33]
Matthew Remsky
Oh really? 17 pools? There's not a swimming pool?
- [55:36]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
No, it's all for floating, soaking, water slides, etc.
- [55:41]
Matthew Remsky
But 7. Wait, so wait a minute. 17 pools and no lane pool?
- [55:45]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
No.
- [55:46]
Bruce Van Deaton
No.
- [55:47]
Derek Barris
What?
- [55:48]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Yes.
- [55:49]
Matthew Remsky
That is so bizarre. Like if you have a stadium, why not even appeal to like sporty swimmer types?
- [55:56]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Exactly.
- [55:58]
Matthew Remsky
That's so bizarre. Okay, Bruce, you know in your first email to me you wrote, and Elizabeth just mentioned this, that you know, as part of the contract the province actually agreed to prepare some of the property and that involved raising 1500 mature trees to make way for the facility. So what's the environmental impact there?
- [56:20]
Bruce Van Deaton
Well, as you can imagine, an urban forest has been cut down and that is just, it is so anti the what the city of Toronto is trying to achieve with its own plans to try and be. Have, have a canopy, a 40% canopy in Toronto by 2040. Yeah, you can throw that out the window the way the trees are coming down in Toronto and there's a, there's an old mature canopy in Toronto and it needs, it's, it's, you know, it's coming down, it's getting old and it needs to be replaced. So these are the kind of retroactive, retrograde things that we just don't need, need to have happen. But I, I've also never seen a more obvious one to one connection when you talk about the environment than you can see here, the relationship with coyotes. They've always been part of Toronto's fauna They've always been here. They would certainly be attracted to places like railroad tracks and, and places like Ontario Place, where it was more wild.
- [57:21]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [57:21]
Bruce Van Deaton
And wide open. But since that's been closed off, there's suddenly appeared in Liberty Village, which is the community right next to where Ontario Place is going to be. There's been all sorts of problems with coyotes. Suddenly there's all. Where did all these coyotes come from? Of course, a lot of people, I can't blame them necessarily, but that they don't know that coyotes have always been. There is something that we have to allow for now there's more of them because their dens have been destroyed and they're coming up now. We hear about people who want to call the coyotes because they're attack. Attacking their little dogs and apparently attacking young children, although I've never actually seen that, you know, evidence of that. But that's. Those are just a couple examples. I mean, it just makes no sense. And I just want to add one thing into about the property itself. We just to situate some things for your listeners. On the east side of Toronto, there is a place called the Don River. And the Don river was this horribly polluted area. It was all industrial. It has been reclaimed, it has been redone and it is absolutely remarkably fabulous.
- [58:34]
Derek Barris
What they've done there.
- [58:35]
Matthew Remsky
Yeah, it's amazing. And it didn't take that long. When I was growing up, you just did not walk through the Don River Valley and what it's 20 years later, 30 years later, something like that. And it is a gorgeous urban park, absolutely wilded over. It's incredible. It's incredible how nature takes it back. Even when we keep doing these projects of laying the sort of facsimile of nature on top of it.
- [59:01]
Bruce Van Deaton
Here's another one you might find interesting. And that is what's called Tommy Thompson park or the Leslie Street Spit, which is this big huge area of garbage of construction materials that have been tipped there for a number of decades now. And for years and years and years the Toronto Council could not come to any kind of agreement on what to do with Tommy Thompson Park. And then they just, they just left it. And it rewilded on its own and it's taken its own course now. They have gone back in now and re engineered certain areas, areas, you know, for habitats, to create habitats for the species that they want to support. But it was just done because government didn't get to touch it.
- [59:44]
Matthew Remsky
This is like the Ontario Place sort of rewilding story itself as well. Like if there might be A benefit from neoliberal governments just saying fuck it to public services once in a while, because if they just drop the ball, the animals are going to come back.
- [60:00]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Well, the other thing to keep a note of is that the best projects in Toronto are not run by the province. Right. So we have Waterfront Toronto, which is a structure that's designed to be all levels of government cooperating. They've built a number of great parks and public spaces along the waterfront over the last, you know, I don't know, couple of decades. And. But this particular site that we're talking about is outside of that and is outside, outside of this kind of realm of public consultation. The province has done some, they call it public consultation, but it's been mostly marketing. So all of our supporters who oppose the project, they show up and they're not allowed to ask certain kinds of questions. They're only asked to respond to very particular premises which are not about whether or not it's wise to do this at all or it's all kind of at the edges. And so I think it's also an important story of, about, about governance in addition to kind of the neglect. Right. It's there, there are different levels of government where people are more. Citizens are more active, they're, they're more engaged, there's more accountability. You know, part of what we fight is that this is the, the site is located in Toronto. But you know, the Premier loves to say, well, it's not Toronto, please Place, it's Ontario Place. Right. So.
- [61:26]
Matthew Remsky
Right.
- [61:27]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
As though Torontonians are not Ontarians.
- [61:29]
Matthew Remsky
I mean, it sounds, Ann Elizabeth, like you're saying that Toronto already has its own thermae type democracy, although you just don't have to get wet, you don't have to pay 40 bucks to get in. And you know, you don't have to make sure that 14,000 people show up every day to participate in it. There actually is a democratic, you know, way of doing things in the city and maybe we should look more carefully at expanding it.
- [61:56]
Bruce Van Deaton
That would be lovely.
- [61:57]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
That's the goal. Like more consultation, more transparency.
- [62:01]
Matthew Remsky
Bruce and Ann, Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us. It's been great to talk to you.
- [62:05]
Bruce Van Deaton
Thank you, Matthew.
- [62:06]
Ann Elizabeth Sampson
Thanks for having us.
- [62:06]
Matthew Remsky
Matthew.