266: Jubilee’s Body Image Debates

Summary

Conspirituality Podcast Summary
Episode 266: Jubilee’s Body Image Debates
Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 266 titled "Jubilee’s Body Image Debates," hosts Derek Barris, Matthew Remsky, and Julian Walker delve into the complex and often contentious discussions surrounding body image within the wellness and spiritual communities. This episode critically examines Jubilee Media's Middle Ground series, focusing on two contrasting episodes: one featuring debates between fit and fat men, and another fostering conversations between individuals battling anorexia and obesity. Through analytical discourse, the hosts uncover the underlying dynamics, societal implications, and personal narratives that shape these debates.

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Overview of Jubilee Media's Middle Ground Series

Julian Walker [03:09]:
"Middle Ground first launched in 2017, the show is one of Jubilee's most impactful series with over 100 episodes ranging from truly productive conversations to pure clickbait."

Jubilee Media's Middle Ground series aims to bridge deeply divided viewpoints by bringing together individuals with opposing perspectives to engage in structured conversations. The format typically involves participants stepping forward to discuss their agreement or disagreement with specific prompts, fostering empathy and understanding.

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Segment 1: Fit vs. Fat Men Debate

Participants and Context

The episode begins by addressing a particularly contentious Middle Ground episode where fit and fat men confront each other on body image perceptions and disordered eating.

Derek Barris [23:01]:
"This is the episode I feel most qualified to talk about as a formerly overweight kid who ended up working in the fitness industry for decades."

Julian Walker [23:19]:
"Myron Gaines, co-host of the popular Fresh and Fit podcast, is a central figure in these debates, representing the fit side with strong anti-feminist and misogynistic viewpoints."

Key Moments and Quotes

1. Myron Gaines's Harsh Stance on Fatness

   [27:44] Myron Gaines:
   "Being fat is unacceptable because you control every single morsel of food that goes into your mouth. It shows a lack of discipline, it shows lack of character, shows a lack of temperance."

   Myron Gaines vehemently criticizes body positivity, attributing obesity solely to personal failings such as lack of self-control and discipline.

2. Hosts' Critique of Myron Gaines

   Matthew Remsky [28:55]:
   "He doesn't give a shit about any of that in any detail because it's so clear that his healthiest healthist fetishes are inextricable from his hatred of women."

   The hosts challenge Gaines's arguments, highlighting the absence of empathy and the toxic nature of his rhetoric.

3. Derek Barris on Shame as a Motivator

   Derek Barris [32:37]:
   "The actual idea of shame being a motivator... I just don't know how it works in online spaces or in spaces like this to the degree that Myron thinks it will."

   Barris questions the effectiveness and appropriateness of using shame to motivate behavior change, especially in mediated environments.

Analysis and Insights

The hosts dissect Myron Gaines's approach, emphasizing his reliance on shame and personal responsibility to condemn obesity. They argue that such perspectives ignore the multifaceted causes of weight gain, including genetics, mental health, and socio-economic factors. Furthermore, they highlight the misogynistic undertones in Gaines's rhetoric, connecting it to broader patterns of toxic masculinity and online radicalization.

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Segment 2: Anorexia vs. Obese Debate

Participants and Context

Contrasting the first segment, the hosts explore a Jubilee Middle Ground episode featuring conversations between women battling anorexia and individuals classified as obese. This episode presents a more empathetic and nuanced discussion compared to the fit vs. fat debate.

Derek Barris [53:32]:
"What really struck me is this environment... they're able to share in a space where they don't know the other people around them."

Key Moments and Quotes

1. Sharing Personal Struggles

   [58:35] Kristen Bell:
   "I thought if I lost a little bit of weight and I didn't feel too big anymore... I wanted people to like me because I'm skinny."

   Participants openly discuss their motivations and the societal pressures that influenced their eating disorders.

2. Te Evans on Body Love and Health

   [47:20] Te Evans:
   "I love everything that my body is capable of doing... because I love myself enough to know that I want to make some changes to live a better lifestyle."

   Te Evans counters Myron Gaines's arguments by framing weight loss as an act of self-love and health rather than a response to societal shame.

3. Kristen Bell on Competitive Pressures

   [58:47] Kristen Bell:
   "Eating disorders are so insanely competitive, and we're constantly comparing each other."

   The discussion sheds light on the internalized competition among individuals struggling with body image, highlighting the psychological aspects of eating disorders.

Analysis and Insights

This segment highlights a more constructive and supportive dialogue, where participants share their experiences and coping mechanisms. The hosts appreciate the empathetic tone, contrasting it with the earlier adversarial debate. They emphasize the importance of understanding the psychological complexities of eating disorders and the role of supportive communities in alleviating personal struggles.

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Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, the hosts draw several key insights:

1. Impact of Format on Discourse:
   The Middle Ground format can either foster meaningful conversations or exacerbate existing tensions, depending on the participants and the nature of the prompts. While some episodes promote empathy and understanding, others risk perpetuating harmful stereotypes and divisive rhetoric.

2. Role of Influencers in Shaping Narratives:
   Figures like Myron Gaines wield significant influence, often blending fitness with toxic masculinity and misogyny. Their platforms can amplify harmful ideologies under the guise of promoting health and discipline.

3. Complexity of Body Image Issues:
   Body image is a multifaceted issue influenced by genetics, mental health, socio-economic factors, and societal pressures. Simplistic narratives that attribute weight solely to personal failings ignore these complexities and can contribute to stigma and shame.

4. Potential for Positive Dialogue:
   Episodes that encourage open and empathetic conversations can provide valuable insights and support for individuals struggling with body image issues. These dialogues can challenge prevailing stigmas and promote a more holistic understanding of health and well-being.

5. Need for Critical Consumption:
   Listeners are encouraged to approach such content critically, recognizing the underlying biases and motivations of the participants. Understanding the broader context and historical evolution of movements like body positivity is essential for informed discourse.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Julian Walker [03:09]:
  "Middle Ground first launched in 2017, the show is one of Jubilee's most impactful series with over 100 episodes ranging from truly productive conversations to pure clickbait."

• Derek Barris [27:44]:
  "Being fat is unacceptable because you control every single morsel of food that goes into your mouth. It shows a lack of discipline, it shows lack of character, shows a lack of temperance."

• Matthew Remsky [28:55]:
  "He doesn't give a shit about any of that in any detail because it's so clear that his healthiest healthist fetishes are inextricable from his hatred of women."

• Te Evans [47:20]:
  "I love everything that my body is capable of doing... because I love myself enough to know that I want to make some changes to live a better lifestyle."

• Kristen Bell [58:35]:
  "Eating disorders are so insanely competitive, and we're constantly comparing each other."

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Conclusion

Episode 266 of the Conspirituality Podcast offers a critical examination of how body image debates are framed within popular media, specifically through Jubilee Media's Middle Ground series. By juxtaposing a toxic debate between fit and fat men with a more empathetic discussion between individuals battling anorexia and obesity, the hosts highlight the diverse ways body image issues are navigated in public discourse. The episode underscores the importance of fostering compassionate and informed conversations to combat stigma and promote genuine understanding in the realms of wellness and spirituality.

Transcript

[Kristen Bell]

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[Julian Walker]

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[Matthew Remsky]

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[Kristen Bell]

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[Julian Walker]

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[Kristen Bell]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Derek Barris]

Hello other Truckee.

[Kristen Bell]

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[Derek Barris]

Hey everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I'm Derek Barris.

[Matthew Remsky]

I'm Matthew Remsky.

[Julian Walker]

I'm Julian Walker.

[Derek Barris]

You can find us on Instagram and threads at conspiritualitypod. We are also all individually over on Blue Sky. You can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality. You can also access our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support.

[Julian Walker]

Spirituality 266 Jubilees body image Debates Body image is a phenomenon that has long simmered below the surface of the wellness industry. We've spent years covering the hard and soft eugenics that inform so many physical and spiritual practices and how the notion of an ideal self persists. And as we're going to get into today, has grown in the online world. Yet just as shaming and skewed body perceptions proliferate in the comment sections and Fitfluencer podcast world, so have opportunities for meaningful conversations. One such venue is the wildly popular debate and discussion shows hosted by Jubilee Media. They've somehow managed to toe the line between heartfelt sharing and outright clickbait. For better and worse, today we're going to look at a few recent episodes that deal directly with body image issues, from being jacked and brought up to the challenges of obesity and eating disorders, and discuss how Jubilee is walking such a precarious tightrope.

[Derek Barris]

All right, this episode started because something interesting popped into My feed, and it was a discussion between anorexic and fat people. This is part of Jubilee Media's Middle Ground series where eight people are gathered to discuss a variety of issues. And in this case it's body image perceptions and grappling with disordered eating. I've done a few episodes now about how wellness rhetoric can help perpetuate eating disorders. Having dealt with orthorexia for 15 years myself, my initial reaction upon seeing that video was that it was going to be a nightmare.

[Julian Walker]

What could go wrong, right?

[Derek Barris]

Some things do go wrong, but some things go very right because I started to watch it and I discovered eight young adults grappling with the very hard reality of dealing with their bodies. Now, unlike the usual format of Jubilee shows, there wasn't a lot of contention and heated yelling. Instead, there was a sincere attempt to commiserate about their own internal monologues and the perceptions of that popular culture perpetuate and judge about skinniness and fatness. I found myself really touched by the conversation. And then because there's always n. And then YouTube suggested a year old episode of Jubilees Middle ground where four fit men dialogued with four fat men and it was an entirely different universe. Then it suggested for fit women and four fat women from eight months ago. We're not going to touch that one. I am putting it in the show notes for anyone who's interested in this. But there's so much, and we're even going to get into this, there's so much discussion online where men talk about women's bodies. I don't really want to get into that territory. So, you know, listener, if you want to go check that out for yourself. But the other two is what we're going to discuss. Now, I've intermittently watched Jubilee for, and I know Julian, you and I, you do as well. And we've talked about these offline and.

[Julian Walker]

Then we intermittently fast from watching Jubilee.

[Derek Barris]

Exactly. It's a very ketogenic show. Now, I had missed these particular episodes about the fat people versus the fit people, et cetera, and I thought they'd be interested to discuss them in the context of the work that we do here because health and body image is so pertinent to the wellness world. So Julian, both of us being Jubilee fans, you know, sometimes can you give us a 101 on what they're all about?

[Julian Walker]

All right, so Jubilee is a YouTube channel. It's run by the LA based Jubilee Media and the channel itself is billed as a game show. And they have 10 million subscribers and an average 6 million views per video. Demographics lean toward Gen Z, I would say. They have multiple highly engaging formats and really slick professional TV level production. Everything has this game show kind of pacing and style. Some of it is organized around dating, some around trying to figure out who the one person is who's pretending to be someone they're not. But they've become most well known for their political debate formats and the most prominent of these people will have seen. Recently there was a Jordan Peterson viral clip from their show called Surrounded. And in this format a well known political pundit sits at a debate table and is surrounded by 20 students in like folding chairs in a circle who disagree with them. And after a topic or a debate prompt has been announced, a buzzer sounds and, and this is the odd part, the students all try to beat one another to the chair opposite the pundit and whoever gets there first then debates them on the prompt. Most recently, Jordan Peterson was the pundit and as I said, multiple clips in which atheist kids like with philosophy chops were roasting the hell out of his views went super viral.

[Derek Barris]

It weird format. It reminds me of middle school in that sense. You know the game where you, they take away a chair every time and you have to rush to it. It's, it's very much of that mindset. I was heartened because I was watching one where 20 Maga people were debating a liberal pundit and a woman rushed to it and a man beat her there and then he just stepped back and offered it. He actually got there to give it to her because he saw her trying to get there. So there are hardening moments like that in the context of where you see moments of humanness. And yet there was also one episode where a Palestinian who is not opposed to the state of Israel was debating 20 pro Palestinians. And the, and it was a very heated but also like there was a lot of heartfelt sharing going on, which was nice, but the first person wouldn't shake his hand. And you see these sort of social dynamics play out that aren't even, you know, part of the conversation. But the body image that you see on the actual show speaks volumes, including in the shows we're going to be discussing today. So we're talking about Middle Ground, which is one of their series and it's a bit different than the pile on we were just talking about. This one is designed to bring together people with opposing or deeply divided viewpoints. Usually it's controversial or on sensitive topics and, and it's meant to engage in structured Conversations with the aim of finding common ground. Sometimes they do, and sometimes not at all. Here's the format. Each episode typically features two or more groups with contrasting perspectives. Conservatives, liberals, pro choice. For a pro of life, there's atheists versus Christians. Speakers are presented with a series of statements or questions related to the topic, and those who agree step forward to discuss their reasoning. Then, after they have a few minutes, a bell rings and then those who disagree take a seat and then continue the conversation. The key point here is in order to foster productive conversations, they often start with less contentious questions and then they increasingly become more divisive. And the idea is to build some empathy early on so that when it gets more challenging, the speakers remember that they're talking to other humans.

[Matthew Remsky]

And.

[Derek Barris]

And it does work. Sometimes you see those sort of relationships formed even when people disagree. And sometimes it just doesn't matter. Middle Ground first launched in 2017, the show is one of Jubilee's most impactful series and there's over 100 episodes ranging from truly productive conversations. I think we're going to get to one of those in segment three today. And then sometimes what feels like pure clickbait, which to me is segment two, I guess to participate in the attention economy, economy, Jubilee has to value their content. I generally feel like we're doing a good job, but I know we're going to have some criticisms as well.

[Julian Walker]

So generally I have very mixed feelings about this channel. I mean, I think they've clearly positioned themselves very well in the digital or very skillfully, I should say, right? In the digital content landscape. They obviously create engaging shows. They've hooked me in. Some of that has to do with who the who the well known people are that they get to come on. It can generate very clippable moments of juicy discussion. And I think the very things that make things them successful also have the kinds of downsides that I'm wary of. Like the game show style and how they frame topics can end up trivializing or sensationalizing actually quite serious issues. They can also create false equivalencies or caricatured representations of certain positions. At the same time, it's getting a whole generation into thinking about these issues by hooking them with entertainment. And their guest list of more famous figures also does unfortunately trend kind of in the direction of right wing propagandists of the day. Some of that may be baked into who's prominent in the digital landscape and who's willing to actually participate and go and have these debates. So they have people like Charlie Kirk and Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens and Jordan Peterson. But then also people who are, you know, more in the left wing direction. Destiny and Pete Buttigieg and even Sam Cedar as the one rare true lefty that I've seen on the show.

[Derek Barris]

That's who I was thinking of before. Right?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, the one progressive surrounded by maga. So Jubilee definitely has its own lane, but I would say that they are situated in the context of similar shows which host debates. And two of the most prominent are the whatever podcast which has 4 million subscribers and fresh and fit that we're going to talk about today, who has 1.6 million. Both of which I think are really more manosphere based. Like for example, their debate thing instead of instead of one Progressive and 20 Maga, they'll have eight only fans models on to debate the evo bio, reactionary male hosts about relationships. And then there are other channels like Premier Unbelievable, which does pretty well and they host debates between Christians and non Christians, but in this more game show kind of format. And these are all very different from other channels that I think slant toward an older demographic like Intelligence Squared and the Monk debates where it's a much more formal, contentious debate where people take turns and they're on a big stage, usually in front of a large audience. And it has more of like a traditional academic structure. And I'll just say both of those channels, even though they have a lot of pretty prominent participants, are dwarfed by these others because their subscribers are merely in the hundreds of thousands, never approaching the million mark.

[Matthew Remsky]

You know, with regard to this channel as a whole, you know, you guys are much more knowledgeable. I mostly reply guy on that today anyway. But I think that the debate format seems to be like a next step up in terms of manosphere formats that really favor people who are super loquacious and you know, can really be aggressive with their points and, you know, it probably favors Gish Gallopers. Is that what you've seen so far?

[Julian Walker]

I don't know about Gish Galloping. I think it does favor people who are very good at being strategic and clever in their use of language and who have well practiced talking points that they can flip back and forth between. Right?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. I would say not a lot of gifts galloping because one thing is people, whether it's the moderator, sometimes they have moderators, but they move it along so that no one talks for too long. So you're not going to have a Russell Brand on these shows, Thankfully. Yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

I mean, what I've seen from the episodes we'll discuss Today I saw see mostly prose, actually, because on one hand, it democratizes and humanizes what's otherwise a culture war sphere, and it takes it kind of out of influencer land. There's an exception we'll get to today, but on the other hand, it does have this reality show or game show feeling to it with not a lot of guidance or facilitation. And I noticed too, in the episodes we'll look at today that there's this pretense to a kind of neutrality in what is really a politicized space and series of themes. And that's most visible in the episodes that are hosted. Like the host of the Four Fit Men versus the Four Fat Men really wants to sort of create this neutral space, but I think that can sometimes make it feel like structural misogyny or fatphobia or other cultural pressures are kind of treated like facts of life or weather patterns that, you know, we can shelter ourselves from but not necessarily change. I also found it very interesting to hear people walk their lines between private experience and the impact of cultural propaganda, especially around, I think, what is the major question that we'll look at, which is personal responsibility or. Or agency, or am I responsible for this aspect of my life or that aspect?

[Julian Walker]

Absolutely.

[Matthew Remsky]

And I also think that the platform, you know, I think there are exceptions, but at least for these episodes, is not actively ginning up acrimony. And I'm remembering that, like, the three of us grew up with Geraldo and Sally, Jesse Raphael and Jerry Springer, and obviously this is a huge step up from all of that shit. You know, we're going to talk about the risk of platforming Myron Gaines, which is a big sort of exception here. I also want to point out one thing that I wondered about is that, you know, this is all about the exposure economy as well, because participants are not paid and there's not a lot of. I would have expected to have seen some big, long think piece or investigation or, you know, interviews with past participants on what their sort of outcomes were from appearing on these things. But browsing Reddit, I didn't seem see much, but I did glean that most people want to go on for exposure. Some people end up feeling set up to look like idiots because they're not really prepared for the rhythm or the context or who they're going to be paired up with, or they're pissed off by editing choices. So. So those are my general feelings about the. About the format.

[Derek Barris]

That's interesting because editing choices is a real concern that you can, you know, subway takes Just did something on that with Bill Burr that was pretty funny, actually, because they released their full episodes on YouTube, but only edited ones on Instagram. But they want to have transparency there. But in terms of being felt set up to look stupid, I mean, at this point, Jubilee's been around for almost a decade. If you're going on there and you don't realize the rhythm and how it moves, then that, I mean, any sort of debate requires preparation. Yeah. And I think sometimes it would be an interesting question, actually, because you invoked influencer world. How prepared are people to move from a safe space in which they have total control over what gets out to actually engaging with other humans? And then whose fault is it because you aren't ready to actually engage in those spaces?

[Matthew Remsky]

I think a lot of it is going to come down to that first producer call that the potential participant has. Right. And what the producer says, like, you know, if this is going to be chilled out, it's going to be a really relaxed environment. We're just going to get, you know, you can, you can imagine a pitch that is very welcoming and that might not sort of measure up with what the person later experiences. But, but anyway, like, the other thing that I was thinking about, you know, with regard to these, these episodes that we'll look at, is that we're coming into them after this long media arc in which the discussion of, you know, bodily perceptions and dysmorphia and health and privilege is, you know, getting to be around 10 years old now on the Internet. But it also dates back to the origins of fat acceptance movements in the late 1960s. Like in, in 1967, there was a fat in protest in Central park to, to highlight discrimination against fat people. And then in the 70s, you know, fat activism, immersed in feminist body politics, you know, people started protesting the diet industry. And. And then, you know, we all remember that Naomi Wolf wrote a very compelling book on this before she became a.

[Julian Walker]

Crank even that book got a lot of criticism from people in it did.

[Matthew Remsky]

It did.

[Derek Barris]

When people actually went back and fact checked it, they're like, wait a second.

[Matthew Remsky]

That'S the thing, right?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I know how many people are dying of anorexia.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So body positivity emerges as an organizing philosophy in the 1990s, and that becomes this key sort of debating point in what we'll look at today. And then it moves online in the 2000s, but it's mainly brought online by marginalized people, by black women, queer folks, fat activists, disabled people. And so it comes under this sort of big umbrella umbrella, as far as I understand it. And so when body positivity is pinged today in discussions like this, a lot of that history in broader context is absent because the focus is often reduced down to a more granular discussion of health and perceptions of health, especially in the one with men. And one result that I see is this granular discussion can be used as a kind of sciency sounding way of condemning a cultural project of body acceptance as being too woke. Right? Like, if we accept fat people, our society will decline because science. So I don't think, you know, somebody like Myron Gaines cares about health science. He cares about sex and power, and he's using health science whenever he wants to to sort of make his points. And I think what gets buried there is the acceleration of body fascism that we've tracked for years, which is, you know, this series of anxieties about impurities and inefficiencies in individual bodies as somehow impacting national vitality. But there's one other thing that I want to flag for listeners which I think is really positive in these episodes, which is that a few participants allude to developing the attitude of body neutrality as opposed to body positivity, which is very contested, right? Like, how can you feel good about yourself if you look like that? And then the person has to defend themselves from that framework, which it can work. But I think it's also limited in experts who unpacked body neutrality as a concept, argue that it's a more realistic attitude because it avoids this direct confrontation with social norms around attractiveness and health. And so the idea is that developing ambivalence towards appearances can allow for these perennial tensions around body objectification in the age of Instagram, which impacts everyone to just sort of like, fade away a little bit.

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[Derek Barris]

Well, we're going to start with the more contentious episode, which is the Fit versus Fat Men. It's the episode I feel most qualified to talk about as a formerly overweight kid who ended up working in the fitness industry for decades. So I kind of know the attitudes of everyone involved on a very intimate level. While I said earlier that middle ground tends to open with less contentious questions to build up to more challenging ones, it's not really the case here. And I attribute that in large part to the fact that after you hear the host, whose name is John Regalato, ask the prompt, you're going to hear Myron Gaines, who we've said his name already, the co host of the popular Fresh and Fit podcast. Julian, can you unpack him a little bit?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, sure. And actually, to your point, Matthew, that you were making a little bit ago, Fresh and Fit picks up where the pickup artist and men's rights movement left off in the 2010s online. Right. So there's, there's a whole set of underlying assumptions that are essentially anti feminist.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right.

[Julian Walker]

And that's, that's not even up for debate. That's, that's just where everyone is coming from. It's, it's self described as a channel that helps men navigate relationships, finance and fitness. And they get their start in 2020 with a former DHS special agent named Myron Gaines.

[Matthew Remsky]

Let's just underline that this guy was a formal. What, what did he do for dhs? Was he out in the field? He's a legend.

[Julian Walker]

So he would probably would have been directing ice raids if he was still there right now, right?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. Awesome.

[Julian Walker]

So his name, as we've already said, is Myron Gaines. And he's, he starts off being nicknamed Fit as part of the kind of concept here. And then an aspiring entrepreneur and musician named Walter Weeks who gets the nickname Fresh. None of this really carries over too much, but that's just the concept they have very successfully Angled for the controversy lane. And clips from Fresh and Fit that tend to go viral are usually of Myron telling insulting red pill truths to a young woman who's gotten too uppity, essentially. And like their top two videos right now are titled Myron Exposes the downfall, all in caps of women with viral clips. And then the second one, arrogant chick, got humbled in caps for thinking that she's the prize. Now both of these thumbnails show Myron looking composed in split screen like he's giving a teaching with an attractive woman on the other side looking very confused and upset. Many of the debate opponents are relatively unknown young women who come on, it seems, for the exposure for their only fans accounts or their streamer accounts.

[Matthew Remsky]

Okay, so the business model is at least in part, let's bring erotic content creators and sex workers on to insult them. And so let's make our content puriant and clickable via the bodies of women who we bring on to dis.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, and there's something going on underneath that, right? Which is that they know that a lot of the men who are supposedly on board with their anti OnlyFans messaging.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, it's off. Total ruse, complete ruse.

[Julian Walker]

Are going to end up being consumers of the OnlyFans models that they have on, which is the reason, reason why they come on. And you know, they're also participating in this process before the exposure, which is actually, I think, really sad. They also host interviews with people like Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes, Sneako and Dan Bilzerian. So very heavily trending toward the right and super misogynistic. And also people who have gained a lot of influence by posturing around how much money they make. The channel has been criticized for its misogyny and its anti Semitism as well as racism towards black women. Specifically, they received a week long ban from YouTube in 2022 for hate speech. And then they were demonetized in August of 2023 for what YouTube called repeated violations of community and advertiser friendly guidelines. And of course, they made a lot of hay around this, around people. They're trying to shut us down. They're trying to silence us. They've mostly leaned into browbeating men about how to be high value alphas and have power over women and smacking down women who think they can beat that. Evolutionary biology, natural order.

[Derek Barris]

Well, you're going to hear Myron answer the prompt first. And you're also going to hear someone named Zach who is one of the fat men in the mix. So here's the first clip Our first.

[Matthew Remsky]

Prompt is, I have felt disgusted looking at a fat body.

[Myron Gaines]

Whoever feels compelled to start us off, well, it's unacceptable to be fat. Okay.

[Matthew Remsky]

That's a great start.

[Myron Gaines]

I mean, I know why you say that, but it's one of those things where. Do you know why you're saying that? Yes. Because I've been fat before and I lost the weight.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, me too.

[Myron Gaines]

I've been fat my whole life.

[Matthew Remsky]

I've been way skinnier than I am.

[Myron Gaines]

Now, and I've been way heavier than I am now.

[Matthew Remsky]

Was I less valuable at one point in there?

[Myron Gaines]

Well, I mean, you can make an argument that you're less valuable when you're fatter because you drain resources, but that's a whole other conversation. But, yeah, I mean, in general, being fat is unacceptable because you control every single morsel of food that goes into your mouth. Okay. It shows a lack of discipline, it shows lack of character, shows a lack of temperance. And when you're fat, it just. It's an outward manifestation of your inadequacy.

[Julian Walker]

So super ideological. And also posturing, as if he's got all kinds of different science. Back to arguments waiting in the background. You know, like, oh, I could go into how you're draining resources, but I won't do that right now.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I mean, if I'm the Jubilee producer, I can't see myself setting that up because I'm not going to know whether Zach is prepared for this level of aggression and abuse. He did okay. He's doing great. I actually think he had a great response there. I mean, I haven't found anything definitive on the process, but I haven't seen any indication that the participants know who they'll be grouped with. So the producer really has to be okay with this kind of Hunger Games model of, I'm going to unleash this ghoul who talks for a living on these normies, and whatever happens will be great content. But this answer of like, do you know why you're saying that Is an amazing intervention for any bully, I think, but it's not gonna. It's not gonna stop him. I mean, do you know why you're saying that? Really speaks to the fact that from the outset, we can see that this guy is incapable of anything but externalizing behaviors. Like, every feeling he has about. About himself, about the world has to be turned into some crusade of control. So this is like announcing himself with top shelf fragility, you know, constant self defense against the ghosts of his own mind. It's pretty obvious what's going on, I.

[Derek Barris]

Think it's actually really compelling because we talk a lot about how people get siloed off into their echo chambers in social media and we've often, at least, I'll say I've often made the case that, that a lot of people in comment sections will not be like that to other humans. There are exceptions and Myron is one of those exceptions. In fact, all four of the fitfluencers here are those exceptions, although none of them are as, are as brutal as Myron is. But in reality, you're going to face people like this in real life because there are those people as well. And so if I'm agreeing to go on this show, I'm ready for that in some capacity. And Zach, Zach turned out to be sort of the star on the fat side here. Here.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

He is also, just to be clear, a male fitness or not a plus size model. He's very attractive. He's like 6, 5 or 6, 6. This comes up in the conversation, right. There's so much male body perception going on. But I, I think he's truly capable of handling them. I think it's why he stepped up first and was taking on the four people. And I, I think opening it, like I said, it was supposed to be less contentious to more contentious. This episode they just got right, they just got right into it. Right. And, but in terms of, in terms of preparation, I think well, and some people are going to do very well. There's another man we'll get to who also does very well against them. I promise I won't just clip Myron for all of these, but he does talk the most out of all of these people. I do think what he says about shame here with a little bit of old fashioned American exceptionalism thrown in is worth unpacking.

[Myron Gaines]

There's way worse stuff going out in the world saying, oh my God, I'm sad, I'm gonna eat some ice cream. It's like, no, dude, it's like, you're fat. You made that decision. You live in the best country ever. If you live in a civilized first world country where you have electric Internet power, et cetera, you deserve to be bullied. It's ridiculous to me that we have all these fat people running around, meanwhile people are being bombed in Gaza. It's ridiculous. We are so privileged here in the United States and in the west in general. When I see a fat person, I'm like, wow, you got the gift of life. You got the gift of being in a developed country and you're A fat pos. Talking about body positivity on TikTok.

[Matthew Remsky]

What the hell is going on?

[Te Evans]

But now you're segmenting, though, because not everyone thinks like that.

[Myron Gaines]

No. We need to bring shaming back. Okay.

[Matthew Remsky]

We need to bring. We need to.

[Myron Gaines]

We need to bring shaming back in so many other regards besides obesity. We need to do it with sluts. We need to shame. Do shame fat people. We need to shame everybody when they fuck up. Because shame, Shame has been one of the strongest defenses against degeneracy and human ups.

[Julian Walker]

Wow. The moral absolutism and hatred is strong with this one.

[Matthew Remsky]

You know, I am thinking about how Richard Spencer starts answering that question in 2017 to the Australian newscasters about whether or not he's a white supremacist and how he just gets gets punched in the face. And I'm like, the thing. Sorry to keep returning to this, but the risk that the producer runs with this is that somebody's just gonna hit him in the face. Right. But yeah, shame is the most powerful motivator in social history. Is not exactly an evidence based statement. So. Yeah, where does the certainty come from, Julian? I wonder if it gives us a picture of how he was brought up or what he's most scared of or what he thinks is just normal for everyone else or what he most needs to externalize.

[Derek Barris]

Well, you. You know, I want to bring up, though, the fact that you're right, it's not evidence based. We've talked about shame before. Virginia Pastor wrote a book about this over a decade ago about how shame does work in smaller communities. Like, say, if you live with 20 people and someone steals something from someone else and you bring them into a circle, it. There. There are certain qualities of shame that I do think worth considering.

[Matthew Remsky]

Myron isn't bringing anybody into a cir.

[Derek Barris]

No, no, no, no. But I'm talking about this. The. The actual. The actual idea of shame being a motivator. That's not entirely incorrect, but it's not appropriate for every situation. And there is some eloquent writing on how it can work. I just don't know how it works in online spaces or in spaces like this to the degree that Myron thinks it will.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, you're talking about a kind of understanding of the evolutionary basis of a kind of social utility of shame and why may it has lasted the way that it has amongst human beings. A lot of psychologists will talk about the distinction between healthy shame and toxic shame, and this is definitely the toxic variety.

[Derek Barris]

Yes, agreed.

[Matthew Remsky]

You know, I'm also thinking That I think a lot of people, us included, we're going to have an impulse to debunk or correct somebody like Myron on fatness or metabolism or whatever he has in his back pocket from whatever studies he's pretend to have read. But I don't think he cares about any of that in any detail because it's so clear that his healthest healthist fetishes are inextricable from his hatred of women. Like, that's why he's there. He's not going to care about whether calorie restriction does or doesn't work because his main aim is to enlist men into a war against women. And if the fat guys, who also happen to be more emotionally intelligent on that panel, backslap him about his sluts comment, which they won't, he'd speak to them differently, probably. And I think the next clip goes all in on that. But I picked up this one thing about that I want to understand better, which is, you know, this guy's Somali American, and he makes this kind of gesture at identity politics because, you know, he almost sounds like he wasn't born in Connecticut, but almost like a. He's speaking like an immigrant who's able to empathize with the global South. So he sort of gestures at Gaza here. But with this logic, I'm surprised that he didn't pin them with responsibility for being poor or electing hamas in. In 2006. But he also is a rabid anti Semite, as I understand, right, Derek?

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. A large part of his brand is built on it. He said in the past that Hitler is right about the Jews. He said that we have to take our country back from these Jewish supremacists. In fact, one of his most popular clips ever, the Hitler one, has over 10 million views. It's not surprising that he'd take any opportunity to ding them in any venue possible. If he doesn't outright say it, that is. That is what he does. A lot of I want to go back to about the, you know, the fatness or metabolism. I just want to point out you're absolutely right, Matthew. He doesn't give a shit about any of that. But the idea that dominates the fitness industry is this personal responsibility. You're responsible for every morsel you put in your mouth.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right?

[Derek Barris]

There are many reasons that people are overweight. And as some of the fat men, men talk about during this episode, for some people it is overeating and not exercising. That is a reality for some people. And people like Myon, who says he was Overweight may have actually changed that completely possible, but it's not the only reason. And the way that obesity and fatness gets flattened by fitfluencers is really, really problematic. And as years ago, the New York Times did a, did a long story on America's Biggest Loser showing that pretty much everyone who went on that show ended up gaining the weight back. And not because they necessarily changed their diets or fitness patterns. It's just because that is how metabolism works for some people. So it, it's frustrating when you see these jacked up douchebags saying these things, especially when it crosses over. Now I said we're not talking about women, we're only talking about men. But women also have different biological realities to contend with. But in someone like Myron's mind, it just doesn't matter if you're fat, you're up, it's your fault.

[Julian Walker]

You know, it really reminds me, guys, of something somewhat toxic in the yoga community that I know we've all experienced, right, where the person who is naturally quote unquote flexible or who has the kind of biomechanics and proportions where it's easier for them to say, do handstands or something like that and balance in the middle of the room will basically imply that anyone who can't do that stuff is because either they're not working hard enough, they're not committed enough to their practice, or that they have blockages in their chakras that they need to clear so that they'll then be able to do, you know, full back bends or handstands or what have you.

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, these are just people who have to believe in the meritocracy, right? Because if they don't, then who are they? Do they actually, are they actually successful at anything? Is anything in their lives, is anything in their lives left up to chance? If they depend on anything outside of themselves, like their social contexts or the social determinants of health, then actually they don't have as much control as I think they do. And I think that's probably where Myron feels worst.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And they've developed a kind of sometimes professionalized self esteem based on a very real experience of like, I felt this way and then I changed my mindset and my behavior and I got to this point and the only reason you're not doing it is because you're lazy.

[Matthew Remsky]

Why can't we just stop at the first part, right? Like, it's fine to say it's a professionalization problem, right? It's like if you have the experience of I changed my life and I feel better now. I would like to hear that story. And then I would like to hear for you to shut the fuck up and not tell anybody else that that's what they should do.

[Julian Walker]

But how do I make money off of it?

[Matthew Remsky]

Make that into your casual sort of employment then. And. And then professionalize further than you just have to become an.

[Derek Barris]

It seems that would have been tough for me because the way that I was no longer overweight is that I grew eight inches in one year.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, right.

[Derek Barris]

And I didn't gain weight and you can too. So how can I sell a program?

[Matthew Remsky]

Right? Yeah. The Derek Growth program. Derek Growth.

[Derek Barris]

Finally, I'm going to make my millions in my 50s. One thing I've long found mind boggling is the amount of men with podcast mics talking to other men about what women want. And it. Unfortunately, it's no different in this convers conversation, especially considering it's a total of nine men in the room. I stitched together two clips here because the entire segment is a bit of a nightmare. But I do think it's important because it really exposes the sort of unconscious vulnerabilities and outright misogyny that so many men hold.

[Myron Gaines]

Oh, I just be a nice guy and girls are gonna like me. No, they're not. She's not gonna suck your dick with the same veracity when you're a fat as when you're in shape. She's just not. See, people don't understand that women are aroused by one thing and they're attracted by another thing. Women are attracted to, you know, a guy that's confident, ambitious, makes money, et cetera, of course. Right. But they're aroused by guys that have tendencies, dark triad traits, et cetera, and guys that are physically in shape. So if you want to get the best of your woman where she respects and admires you while simultaneously being aroused by you so she doesn't cheat on you, you need to have it all.

[Derek Barris]

Because I've been so surprised to see on Instagram there'll be like guys doing like an outfit try on, like not.

[Myron Gaines]

In shape in the slightest bit.

[Derek Barris]

And all the comments are women. Like, I wish like men knew this is how we wish they looked. And like, oh, this is like media.

[Myron Gaines]

Liars for one thing about. You can never believe what women say, man. You, you, you, you believe how they behave, not what they say.

[Julian Walker]

That's a different episode. All right.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. And just to notice it, it is some of the fat men going along with that, not just the fit men. So that's why I flagged it as nine men in a room. Talking about this is not a great topic.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, well, there's some solidarity there. Right? So I, I looked him up further. Gaines has got a 2023 book, Women Deserve Less. I did not read it. I did scan through it. It's basically a copy pasta of every, you know, sort of MrM PUA rant you've ever heard of. It's less crass than Andrew Tate, but it's also super nihilistic, almost black pilled to incel level on gender politics and you know, the prospects facing men. It is a long rant against feminism. So like me Too is an example of quote, non existent sins men have committed that never seem to relent. That's lumped in with quote, the mythical wage gap, microaggressions, harassment, oppression, the patriarchy, chore deficits, catcalling, mansplaining and manspreading. This is somebody who expresses zero interest in bonding or friendship or emotional connection. Definitely no awareness of emotional labor. You know, the book really sort of posits relationships as 100% transactional, but the contracts have changed these days and that's why we're all in trouble. Women don't like most men and they never did. But now free to say that they're free from needing men because of technology and the welfare state.

[Derek Barris]

Welfare queens.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, basically, I guess. He says that online dating has made women delusionally picky, that they're only interested in the top 5% of high quality men. So they become. This is a word I had to look up. Hypergamists. These are women who can only be parasites, who negotiate for attention and resources from men while they climbed the ladder, the dating ladder, in bad faith, while of course dirtying their value with too many sex partners and never offering genuine commitment.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, and that's. That goes to, to what he was saying in the clip. Right. Where you really hear him saying that you have to be this way or that way so that they don't cheat on you.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, well, both ways.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. So that you have power over them. Right. And so this whole idea of hypergamy is that you're con. The woman is constantly wanting to trade up in terms of the alpha status of their mate. And so if you're low down on that pecking order, she's going to cheat on with a guy who's in better shape and acts like more of a narcissist or something.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So he's obsessed with misandry. So women who hate men, it Sounds like a him problem and women getting victim status. And so the answer is to give women less, to build yourself up more. I think the whole thing is expressing betrayal in relation to men who won't join this lonely war that he has going on.

[Derek Barris]

And I'm also. I don't want to flatten anything because he does brag about having 3,000 women on his podcast over the years. So he knows women. I would imagine there's some selection process, as you flagged earlier, Matthew, in terms of people, why they go on. And so maybe there is some group of women who act in the way that he says, but there are a whole lot of women who do not. And it just, just the way I've always phrased it is that men talking to other men who don't actually talk to women about what women want. And that's what it feels like throughout coming through this. And so I have to wonder in the back of my head is when he says that women won't tell him the truth, I would imagine that most just want to get the away from him so they don't have to deal with them and try to move on as soon as possible possible.

[Matthew Remsky]

I have a zoom out thought too, a feeling about when I hear this sort of pickup artist, high quality man woman BS and how it always reduces to scoring or whatever. It just makes me really feel sad because it's the mindset of engaging with like the flimsiest veneer of human relationships. Like you're setting yourself up for emotional destitution. It's. It's like he's, I don't know, trapped in, I don't know, porn, but he thinks it's real or something like that. Like, and at my age and after a lot of feminism and hanging out with a lot of trans people and watching a lot of Drag Race and like really understanding performativity, I just don't buy into the world that this is built on, into the world of conventional beauty standards or appearances as really being substantial. Like, I don't reject them or judge people who, you know, know, turn themselves out, who, who want to look good in their way. But it just doesn't move me because everything these guys have to learn at some point is temporary except friendship and loyalty and comfort and, and caregiving. Like that's what they are missing. It's like they're building a career avoiding talking about what's actually going to be important to them when they're fucking. You know, like when the shit hits the fan when they're 50 years old and they have responsibilities. They might have children or they might be looking at sickness like they're actually spending their time avoiding looking at what they have to actually prepare themselves for.

[Derek Barris]

Well, it'll be interesting. Matthew, you have two Scott Galloway episodes coming up this weekend, so maybe some of these ideas will be impact there too. And hopefully not in such a toxic manner as Myron. I don't imagine.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I have to say that Galloway and the Mooch do a lot better than Myron Gaines. I do have my criticisms, but I'm, I'm, I, I am, I am more kinder to, to them for sure.

[Derek Barris]

Well, let's do one more. I've been sharing mostly monologues with some, some feedback from other participants, but I want to share one more. That's a bit of a back and forth. An underlying current throughout this entire conversation is the body positivity movement. Some of the fit men see, do see some value in it. Not Myon, but others. Some of the fat men have critiques of it, you know, so again, it's a very holistic conversation when it gets around the image of the body. The man who plays foil to Myon throughout, his name is TE Evans. He's a sexually fluid black man who presents the most nuanced of the eight men. First, you'll hear Myron discuss why he hates body positivity. And this is after a rant where he says everyone whose body positive is bullshitting themselves. Then it's followed by what I consider to be one of the best moments of the episode.

[Myron Gaines]

I think the whole movement is a problem. Body positivity movement in general is a problem, all of it.

[Te Evans]

So you shouldn't feel positive even about your own, like free for you, for instance.

[Myron Gaines]

You haven't earned. You know, here's the thing. Being happy and content with yourself, it's not given, it's earned. You have to go out there, work, and then you're going to feel that satisfaction. Like I earned that. Absolutely.

[Te Evans]

So at what point do you earn.

[Myron Gaines]

It though, when you can look back in the mirror and actually genuinely not coping. Respect the man that you see before you. And the reality is people are going to realize that you're going to need to achieve a certain physique because you have all these fat people. I love my body. No you don't. It's a lie, dude. You're just coping. You're lying to yourself. And all these people on Instagram and TikTok with the body positivity movement are lying to themselves. They're not Happy where they want to be. They just accept that because they're too lazy to make a change.

[Te Evans]

No, but I genuinely do love my.

[Myron Gaines]

Body right now, as you are.

[Te Evans]

Yeah.

[Myron Gaines]

Then why are you going to. And I'll explain to you then why are you going to do it?

[Te Evans]

I will explain it to you. I love everything that my body is capable of doing. I love the fact that at my size, I can do a lot of things that other people smaller than me still cannot do.

[Myron Gaines]

But you want to lose weight, though.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Myron Gaines]

Yeah.

[Matthew Remsky]

Right.

[Myron Gaines]

Which is good.

[Te Evans]

I want to lose weight because I love my body. But I have one body, why would I not love it? And because I love my body.

[Myron Gaines]

But you understand that your body now needs to changes.

[Te Evans]

But to say that loving your body is bs. No, you make changes. You make healthy changes to yourself because you love yourself. All of that time that I'm putting in the work, the money that I'm spending, that's a labor of love. Because I love myself enough to know that I want to make some changes to live a better lifestyle in the sense of I can just do a little bit more.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, I love that guy.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, he's fantastic. And I. I can't help but imagine as someone again who's overweight, looked in the mirror a lot.

[Matthew Remsky]

Lot.

[Derek Barris]

And then grew fit, but still looked in the mirror and saw the old body. That for Myron to say, are you happy with yourself now? The idea that Myron is. I just don't buy it because.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, right.

[Derek Barris]

I'm sure he's constantly staring at himself, thinking of improvements.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's tragic, right?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And no one could say it better than. Than Tevin just did. And there actually is. Is data. I can't cite it right now, but catch me later and I'll find it. That shows that people who become really, really invested in fitness and especially in bodybuilding constantly look in the mirror and feel unsatisfied with the results of the hard work they're doing.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. So Tevin does a brilliant job there and I think he pulls it off. But I just want to mention, as I did before, strategically, that, you know, responding from the perspective of body positivity boxes him in. He overcomes it. But it does box a person into Myron's framing here of loving or not loving. And that can be part of the limitation with the logic of body positivity as opposed to body neutrality. But the guy basically says you've got it backwards. Right. But it has to stay in the framework of refuting the Fact that Gaines thinks he's a mind reader and you know he's not going to be swayed by the contradiction because he can always say, like, you're lying. I don't believe that you love yourself. Right? But yeah, he gave. He gave an excellent answer.

[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Derek Barris]

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[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

That was, you know, dying.

[Julian Walker]

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[Kristen Bell]

I've always been told I'm a really good listener, right. And I maximized that while I was lying.

[Julian Walker]

Listen to Deep Cover the truth about Sarah wherever you get your podcasts. So for this next format we're looking at another middle ground episode. It's called Anorexia versus Obese and it's a very similar format to what we've just just been seeing where there are prompts and people opt in or opt out of having that conversation based on whether or not they agree with the prompt. In this case there are four women with anorexia and two men and two women who are classified as obese and they're ready to get into the conversation together. So off the top here I have a real side eye on all of this because the title and the framing seem already seems kind of rough to me. Anorexia nervosa is a psychiatric diagnosis that can require life saving medical intervention. It's based on a powerfully distorted body image and this obsessive fear of gaining weight that then drives extreme self control strategies around food and weight and calorie burning and it can be triggered by trauma, but it also has a 50 to 60% genetic heritability and you are around 11 times more likely to develop anorexia if someone in your family also has a it. On the surface we could say that obesity has some similarities. Like yes, being fat can be very detrimental to your health, but it's not based on a Self con, a self destructive control mechanism. I would say more perhaps a vulnerability to overdoing, something that is crucial for survival. In some cases. It does have a similar percentage of genetic heritability. But interestingly, the likelihood of developing obesity based on a family member being obese is only three times higher than the average compared to 11 for anorexia. So while stress and mental health components can contribute to overeating, it's not as characteristic to be struggling with the kind of psychic torment that anorexics experience. So I start off really unsure what this combination is about beyond obvious marketability. And the thumbnail for the video actually underlines this. It's of a pale red haired anorexic, self described teenager who's one of the most vocal in the group, looking very upset, while the one non white and non gender conforming person on this panel who's blue haired and heavyset, looks at her like she's making a really strong I told you statement.

[Derek Barris]

I understand the side eye because as I said, when I first saw it, I had that. And then when I listened to it, the connection to me is body image and body perception between these two. So I agree it might be clickbait, but at the same time the internal monologues. And I just know that when I was dealing with my own body image, I mean, I dealt with it a long time, but when I was, when I was actually overweight, I didn't have anyone to talk to about that. And if I heard this type of conversation, hearing peers of mine who you can see on the screen, some of them are overweight and some of them are nowhere near it. But actually as they go through their processes and what they're feeling, that would have alleviated at least some of my own stresses around my own internal monologues. Because it's just that matter of, oh, there are other people, I can see these people and I can now hear what they think about themselves. Why am I so hard on myself in this way? And that that to me is where I found real value in it.

[Matthew Remsky]

You know, I also just want to add the, the complexity with regard to, to disordered eating that, you know, some folks, we've covered this before report feelings of agency around caloric restriction, like it allows them to control something in an otherwise prescribed life. So that's part of Susie Orbach's thesis back from like 1984 or something like that, especially related to young women in her book called Hunger Strike. It's also part of the storyline of Girl Interrupted with Renoda Ryder. So Eating or not eating as a form of rebellion when you don't have a lot of other options. And you know that will change the way you socialize. It can put up a firewall against family, which might feel helpful or even necessary for some people. And then when combined with over exercise, this is an important thing. The calorie deficit can feel exhilarating before it doesn't.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, and I think that's what's going on with a lot of people who are just trying to be fit and healthy through controlling their calories and increasing their exercise. I mean, I think we can see most coping mechanisms as providing some feeling of agency. At the very least they all serve some self protective function that we can have empathy for. Like the drug addict experiences some sense of agency by knowing how they're going to feel 60 seconds after ingesting that drug. I think it's tricky with anorexia. It's such a fascinating topic when you have some kind of structural analysis here, because I think we might expect to see higher rates amongst women who experience more oppression intersectionally. But it turns out that rates are extremely low for anorexia amongst black women as compared to white. And this may point more to a genetic component. And one thing I found out in thinking about this is that the country with the highest rate of anorexia per capita is Luxembourg, which is one of the most socially progressive countries in the world. So it's a puzzle.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, yeah, that's a puzzle. I mean, I also kind of side eyed this too because the framing is kind of uncomfortable. I think you'd really have to be a master facilitator for something like this to not just simply increase the pressure of the topic and the conversation in the culture generally, to not deepen shame grooves just through oversharing, which is what ends up happening when you have 6 million views or whatever and there was no host for this one. And I don't know how they decide to have hosts or not have hosts. Maybe with the men they felt they needed somebody to keep the peace or something like that. But I found that a little bit odd because they are directed through this exercise from the rafters, like ex machina or something like that. I found that strange.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, there's actually an Indian accented female, adult female voice that comes over the.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, over the intercom. Yeah, almost like. Yeah, it's almost like a prompt.

[Julian Walker]

Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah, a prompt from Squid Game or something like that.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, yeah, it is kind of odd. All right, so speaking of prompts, the first One is, I would rather be too scared skinny than be too big. And in this case, the four women with anorexia all walk to the stools. Just one obese guy joins them, and he's a really thoughtful conversationalist. He ends up playing a big role in this episode, and he's really interested in what's going on with these women. And they're all, I think, on the younger side and have clearly been in programs and had therapy overall, would much.

[Te Evans]

More appreciate being too skinny than too fat.

[Kristen Bell]

I think my onset was kind of bullying. I thought if I lost a little bit of weight and I didn't feel too big anymore, no one could ever bully me again. Like freshman year, that one, you know, friend who wasn't really a friend was horrible for me. And that's kind of what started my spiral. I remember thinking, I was like, I want people to like me. I want, you know, to be accepted. And I thought that being skinny or not even skinny, just losing weight and not feeling that big feeling would be the answer and that, you know, people would like me because I'm skinny. And I feel like, to an extent, unfortunately, that's kind of true. People pay more attention to you when you fit those standards.

[Te Evans]

Where do you guys feel like you get that pressure from?

[Kristen Bell]

I kind of feel like comparison. Comparison for the most. I mean, especially in our position. Eating disorders are so insanely competitive, and we're constantly comparing each other.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Kristen Bell]

Me and my friends would, like, weigh ourselves in front of each other and see who. See which ones feel so bad. I get a high being weighing less than my little sister, who's shorter than me, unfortunately. But it's, you know, it's horrible, but it's the truth. Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. Lots of. Lots of insights here. Lots of self reflection. As the conversation transitions, the other three obese folks who didn't step forward now join in because they disagree with the prompt. And we don't have a clip of that. But I'll just say that the. The two women in that group reflect on having strived to be skinny and gotten praise for it, but they actually felt unhappy and unhealthy and like they were putting themselves in danger through the effort that that took. And they're glad now to be embracing their body type, their genetics, essentially.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. And. And there were references to ongoing struggles trying to achieve a more sort of neutral perspective. And then this difference that keeps coming up between loving the way they look versus loving their bodies. And to me, that seems to be the real sort of wisdom there, that that feeling One can become less anxious about calories, more at home internally, but still knowing that the pressure of conventions and expectations socially are always going to be disturbing in some way. It's not like you're ever going to be perfectly, sort of radiantly happy in your own self perception because your self perception is going to be socially conditioned.

[Derek Barris]

This, this moment hit me when I first watched it, and ironically, because I had friends in town this weekend, Julian, you ended up clipping the show. The first three clips you chose when I watched it in my head were the exact clips that I wanted, which just worked out really well that way. But what really struck me is this environment in this situation where they're talking about this game they have with siblings, which is a real phenomenon with eating disorders. It becomes competitive and they're able to share it in a space where they don't know the other people around them. And they're like, yeah, me too. And I just think of how lucky it is that there's not a Myron Gaines in there. Yeah. To like jump in and just like, be himself, because they're able to actually share. And again, that just gets back to what I see as the value of this, is that they are in a space and then the, the overweight people do not, not come in and say, oh, that's horrible. Like, they're, especially the guy you reference. They're commiserating in their own way with them. And that's why I really did appreciate there is some tension throughout the episode. But it, it doesn't really fall upon this sort of competitive spaces and a lack of understanding about what that entails.

[Matthew Remsky]

We're, we're really, I think we're appreciating serendipity because again, the producers are rolling the dice here, right? Anything, anything could have happened and they would have made it work and they would have, they would have made, you know, big, big view counts maybe, but.

[Derek Barris]

We don't know, we don't know what the, you know, they could have screened for these things and let them know. So, you know, to be clear, we don't know what the back end is, you know.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah. And they, they could also be throwing episodes out too, if they just go off the rails. Right.

[Julian Walker]

I have episodes where they're like, okay, this one we're going to go for more controversy. This one we're going to go for more empathy and see what the algorithm. Algorithm says about how, what people want. I think, I think really what you're getting at, Derek, is something I really agree with, which is that we come from a generation that it where a lot of our struggles were pre Internet and a lot of the isolation, the aloneness, the taboo about just like really acknowledging what you're going through. This is the upside of the Internet is that people are going to have access to content like this and to forums like this where they don't feel so alone. Alone. And there are other people saying, yeah, me too, right?

[Derek Barris]

Because for me, misophonia did not exist as a condition until the Internet. And if people know what that is, it's the chewing noises that drive you insane. I've dealt with it my entire life. And it. The people did not know it existed, that other people felt that way until early Internet forums and it became a diagnosed condition and there became therapies around it. So it is an example of one of the positives of having people been able to. To just grieve about their life online and then actually find community around it.

[Julian Walker]

So the next prompt here is fat shaming comes with more hate than skinny shaming. And this time, three of the obese folks step forward and just two of the anorexics. The same young woman who started us off before says that being cold fat feels like it's the worst possible insult. And the two obese women also give their thoughts.

[Kristen Bell]

I think, like, societal beauty standards, do they push thinness. So, like, being skinny shamed, of course, it's like any type of harassment and bullying is not okay. But I do think, like, that is kind of like you said, it's almost like a compliment. Like, I just feel like being fat shamed is like more harsh bullying. Because, like, on social media I get comments all the time. And it's like, you can never win either when you're fat. Cause, like, I can be at the gym working out, and the people still call me fat, and I'm like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, I'm here at the gym. Like, I feel like skinny shaming is a newer thing. Yeah. But there's a lot of, like a thick, painful history to fat shaming and being called fat. And you're right, it's definitely, in my opinion at least. It just seems far more hateful, especially with society's idea about what is considered beautiful and what isn't. It's, you know, the typical standard of beauty is a thin white woman. Unfortunately, I was actually gonna to touch. That's a great point because I've kind of read into the whole the theory of, like, fat phobia stemmed off of racism to start with, because of course, the beauty standard was a skinny white woman. So that's why I feel like it's so much deeper than just being like you're fat. It's like, well, what do you mean by that?

[Derek Barris]

If you are someone who goes to a gym and then give fat people for being in there, you can all the way off because you cannot say that f. Fat people should lose weight and exercise more. And then when they try to do it. That is a real concern that people have. I've talked to so many former students who just getting in the gym, you don't understand the sort of pressures they have to be able to go into them. It's part of the reason that online fitness is so successful because people don't like those environments. So I just want to say, you know, that is a real thing and I'm so glad they brought that up because it's just such a double standard that quote unquote, fit people put on people who are not as comfortable in their bodies. Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

I just want to say here too, one thing I've noticed a lot, especially with. With women of my generation and maybe just slightly younger, is that there is. There is a little bit of a social game that sometimes gets played of like, oh, you look really. Are you losing? Are you eating enough? And. And then it's always like, oh, thank you. Thank you for. Thank you for suggesting that I might be unhealthy, that. That I might not be well, because I look like I've lost too much weight. So there's, there's that. That's in the mix here, too.

[Derek Barris]

That was a conversation we would have at Equinox as instructors with our manage. If we suspected someone had an eating disorder and was working out. Some people will be in the gym for four straight classes. It's like how to handle that. And there, there are methods to be able to do that, but it is a very real concern in those environments.

[Matthew Remsky]

What was the, what was the suggestion Derek was like, did HR say that you would try to engage the person in some way because you're. Nobody's really qualified for that as a personal trainer, right?

[Derek Barris]

No, well, group fitness instructor. I don't know about the trainers. That was a separate department, but I'm sure they had had their own protocols. No, the, the best, the best thing you can do is try to get in contact with a friend who might be a gym friend and try to talk to them. You'd never want to directly because that can go off the rails very quickly. So the protocol was, yeah, try to Identify someone in their circle and then try to bring it up in a way that wasn't so, you know, confrontational. And, you know, people, if they are friends, they can, they can, they can understand where you're coming from. The challenges. Of course, course, as was brought up in the last clip, is because this sort of body type is competitive. You know, you can also take chances there, them going back to them. But, you know, but if you see it, if you, if you see someone who is literally about to pass out in a class regularly, that is an actual health concern that has to be addressed in some capacity.

[Julian Walker]

So next prompt. I'm terrified of gaining more weight. And again, it's all for anorexic women who step forward. And that's same loquacious and thoughtful big guy.

[Kristen Bell]

For me, it's more dysmorphia fueled. Yeah, Like, I already don't see myself as the weight that I technically am. And so just like the idea of a number going up plus my brain already messing with me, it's just going to take it completely out of control and it's going to start a spiral. That dysmorphia is real, bro. Yeah. I have like nightmares about the number on the scale. Like 120 pounds. Like, I have nightmares when I get on the scale. I'm 120. And I know that's so bad to.

[Te Evans]

Say, but I don't want that number to go up because at my heaviest I was near £400. I don't ever want to see those numbers again.

[Kristen Bell]

What's your goal with weight loss?

[Te Evans]

I want to be healthy. For me, healthy means have issues where I, you know, snore, have sleep, anxiety, apnea at night. I don't have difficulties with, you know, long endurance activities. When I am sitting there in front of my kids, I'm presenting what I think is a good example of an ordered human being to them, of somebody who's in a good position. You know, they're little right now and they see me and they know I'm big, but I don't want them to think that, that this is what they ought to be.

[Derek Barris]

I want to point out the difference here between these two episodes. I'm sure listeners, you've clued into this already between Myron's obsessive focus on physique as an indicator of health versus that which is I want to be able to walk upstairs. I want to be able to carry my kids around, which is how most people actually think about health. And it's why the fitness industry Skews health so badly towards physique. It's, it's. It is actually one of the major criticisms I had working in Equinox for so long because they, they had very slick marketing campaigns. But I'll just say that they were very choosy in who their models were. They very rarely worked with actual fitness instructors. They worked with models for all of their ad campaigns specific for those reasons. And I think that's really toxic because health is not just physique. There's so much more than that. And in fact, there's been plenty shown that being too skinny or being certain body types that are quote, unquote, healthy looking, that people with a little bit more on them are actually metabolically, actually much healthier.

[Matthew Remsky]

Also. Let's just shout out the dad bot, right? Because, you know, he's talking about. He wants to be able to do things as a caregiver. And when you get older and you have injuries and you have reduced time, Myron gains, guess what? Dad bod is coming for you too. Although maybe you'll miss it. Maybe it's better you do. But anyway. But the dad bod is the body of the guy whose life is no longer longer primarily their own. And I can hear that in, in. In this guy's voice. But I mean, I can also hear like I, I want to. I mean, there's something. I think there's a shadow behind there, which is. I want to be here for a long time too.

[Derek Barris]

If you can stomach it and go back to watch the entire Fit versus Fat Men, which I don't recommend.

[Matthew Remsky]

No, no, no.

[Derek Barris]

I meant everyone listeners, but you. So, Matthew, there is a hole section on the dad bod in there.

[Matthew Remsky]

Oh, is there? Okay.

[Derek Barris]

Yes.

[Matthew Remsky]

All right. Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

And guess what, Myron. Myron doesn't think it's real. He doesn't think it's worthy of. Of being healthy.

[Matthew Remsky]

Of course he does, because it's not going to change his life. Nothing's going to change his life. No responsibility, no other person. No. No amount of. Of giving or generosity or caregiving is going to change his life. That's great. That's great.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And guess what he's going to get on Testosterone replacement.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

All right, so this last clip continues this vibe that's present in this particular episode, which is very collaborative and respectful. They touch on the often controversial perspective of framing anorexia and other disorders as existing within an addiction model, which I think is really interesting. And they get into the final question here, which is being. Or the final prompt being obese or anorexic is a choice. And this becomes this quite touching set of reflections, I think, on free will and genetics and mental illness, what you do and don't have control over, and then also trying at the same time to heal and improve your life.

[Kristen Bell]

I think what's tricky about eating disorders is it's not just a diagnosis. It quickly merges into the world of addiction. I think that's another reason why the word recovery is used, because I was sitting here thinking to myself, that's true. We don't. We don't say I'm recovered from depression or anything. At the end of the day, what I put in my mouth and my body and everything was a choice. But I also know that there's other people that struggle, that don't have that. We can't just lose five pounds. Like, it has to keep going. And then it becomes this whole thing, this whole disorder.

[Te Evans]

I still, like I said, inevitably, I think it's important to instill in my children and everyone, you know, anyone I raise in the future as well would be that there's a distinction between what your mind leans you to and what you actually do. Right. There's always that choice between those two. And that factor is the thing that to me, makes obesity a choice is that no matter where my mind leans me to, it is inevitably the choice that I make that makes me overweight.

[Kristen Bell]

Wouldn't you think that the same for anorexia, though?

[Te Evans]

Well, I agree. Skinny. I would say being skinny is a.

[Derek Barris]

Choice, but being anorexic as a mental.

[Te Evans]

Disorder, if you ask, if you asked me, if you said, like, you know, is being.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Te Evans]

Is being depressed a choice? No, I don't think they're being depressed.

[Kristen Bell]

Yeah, for sure.

[Julian Walker]

So what comes across a lot with. With this guy is that he. He is really grappling with what it means to be. Take responsibility for himself, to make healthy choices as a role model for his kids. Right. And so I think this, this part of the conversation is very interesting around what can you and what can't you control? What do you have choice over? You know, I. I'm obsessed with the philosophical discussion of free will and what constitutes free will and do we really have it? And the question that I always have for people who are really scared or skeptical of recognizing how little free will we actually have is always, you made that choice, but did you choose the thing that enabled you to make that choice?

[Matthew Remsky]

Well, it's particularly germane to somebody who's parenting because you're also tangling with that, with your children all the time and whether or not. Not they have agency and they are making choices or whether those choices are coming entirely out of your own sort of unconscious, you know, set of conditions that you've provided with them. And so like, do they. Are they actually free to make any of those choices? So, so he's, he's not just speaking about himself. And I think that's why the conversation has a little bit more integrity. He's also speaking about, oh, I'm grappling with this in terms of showing whether or not showing my kids whether or not I have agency. But this question of personal choice and agency is haunting everybody. And I think it's because it's such a human hope that choice and freedom should always be possible for the individual. And just my thought on that, in the American or any individualist context, that concentration is aspirational. It can feel empowering to people. It can also pull attention away from the things people can't change on their own, but they can through, through politics like food access and mental health services and, you know, other things that, that we wind up providing for each other.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And so the, the illusion of absolute individualist choice is an avoidance of the vulnerability and the intellectual difficulty and the political awareness of, you know, recognizing a range of things from genetics to social conditioning to trauma history to socioeconomic conditions. Right.

[Matthew Remsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

And, and, and the fact that actually there are people that, that there but for the grace of what different circumstances, I could also be that person that I'm having such a moral judgment against, whatever the, the reason.

[Kristen Bell]

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