272: Jillian Michaels is the Biggest Loser

Summary

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Podcast: Conspirituality

Episode 272: Jillian Michaels is the Biggest Loser
Date: August 28, 2025
Hosts: Derek Beres & Julian Walker (Matthew Remski on vacation)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines Jillian Michaels’ controversial legacy as a fitness influencer and trainer on "The Biggest Loser" in the wake of the new Netflix docuseries Fit for TV. The hosts dismantle the show’s fat-shaming, cult-like mentality and its connections to current conspirituality trends in wellness, particularly as Michaels and other "fitfluencers" become involved with the reactionary "MAHA" (Make America Healthy Again) movement associated with RFK Jr. Broader issues about public health, fitness culture, and political manipulation of wellness are explored in depth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jillian Michaels and Mainstream Wellness Grift

• The episode’s titular focus is on Jillian Michaels and her recent mainstream media appearances, including a controversial CNN segment where she commented on slavery (16:34).
• Michaels’ transition from reality TV to current political-wellness authoritarianism is traced, notably via her involvement with RFK Jr.’s "MAHA" circle and her use of her platform to call out “Big Food, Big Pharma, and Big Insurance” (47:01).
• Quote (Julian, 18:44): “She’s completely unqualified for any position she’s been in, in her career, but willing to speak very loudly and aggressively on whatever topic is in front of her.”

2. The Netflix Docuseries: ‘Fit for TV’ and Revisiting ‘The Biggest Loser’

• The new docuseries critically examines the rise and cultural impact of "The Biggest Loser," focusing on its methods and aftermath for contestants.
• Julian describes it (19:51): “This documentary depicts a sickening blend of desperate enthusiasm, relentless shaming, and that weird live audience, reality TV kind of circus vibe.”
• The documentary’s approach to follow up with former contestants sets it apart from the original show, exposing deeper harms—metabolic, psychological, and societal.

3. Gym Culture, Fatphobia, and MAHA Parallels

• Crossover between Biggest Loser-style bootcamp cruelty and today’s political wellness grifting is made explicit. The hosts draw lines from “fitfluencer” body shaming to RFK Jr.’s public health policies and personal gym challenges.
• Derek on Kennedy and gym access (34:38): “What Kennedy and many other fitfluencers miss is that people don’t like gyms and for a number of reasons. One is that fat people are relentlessly judged in them.”

4. ‘Personal Responsibility’ Versus Structural and Genetic Realities

• The myth that obesity is simply a matter of personal willpower is dissected, with attention to the biological and societal contributors—genetics, medication, economic status, built environment, and more.
• Julian (31:35): “Genetic factors are between 40% and 70% responsible for obesity too… all of this is based on BMI, an extremely flawed heuristic… that also incorrectly skews many very healthy people with athletic muscle mass into overweight or even obese categories.”
• The show and corresponding wellness movements’ “personal responsibility” rhetoric is compared to Reagan-era individualistic health ideology.

5. Metabolic Realities and the Damage of Rapid Weight Loss

• The hosts emphasize the research showing that contestants’ metabolisms tanked after the show and seldom bounced back, leading not just to weight regain but significant biological hardship.
• Julian reads New York Times, 50:56:
  “When the show ended, their metabolisms had slowed radically and their bodies were not burning enough calories to maintain their thinner sizes… It was as if their bodies were intensifying their effort to pull the contestants back to their original weight.”
• This metabolic “revenge” contradicts the “eat better, move more, and you’ll be fixed” narrative pushed by both the show and the MAHA movement.

6. The Spectacle of Reality TV and Its Cultural Consequences

• Discussion of the show’s humiliating twists (e.g., mass eliminations, temptation challenges to binge-eat junk food on TV), and the normalization of public shaming for entertainment.
• Julian (54:39): “How exciting is a TV show in which you’re losing one or two pounds a week? … The premise is so cruel. It creates spectacle out of people who are already socially devalued and seen as lacking in self-respect and discipline… There’s something very Roman Coliseum about it all.”
• The hosts observe that the popularity of such spectacles reflects—rather than creates—societal disdain for fat bodies and those perceived as lacking “discipline.”

7. Contestants’ Aftermath and Lack of Accountability

• Michaels’ response to post-show scrutiny includes legal threats and scapegoating. She has posted evidence that producers and showrunners allowed or encouraged questionable practices (e.g., caffeine pills), but remains unrepentant.
• Derek (46:17): “She is a terrible human, but so is everyone on this show. I have to give her credit for shoving it back in their face, but overall, I’d rather they all burn for partaking in this cruel project.”

8. Larger Patterns: Alternative Medicine, Conspiracy Rhetoric, and Biohacking

• The episode critiques "holistic" fertility treatments being promoted by anti-abortion and wellness circles (11:57) and the recent stripping of “diversity” language from scientific grant proposals (07:30) as further signs of pseudoscience, privatization, and culture-warring within public health.
• The hosts discuss the emergence of a strange alliance between crunchy alt-wellness and authoritarian conservatism, as encapsulated in the language around “root cause,” "restorative reproductive medicine," and the disparagement of “woke” health initiatives.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (With Timestamps)

• Julian (02:08): “Why is Jillian Michaels on CNN commenting on slavery? Exactly. As it turns out, Netflix provides the answer.”
• Derek on gym culture (34:38): “Only 20.6% of Americans have a gym membership. On top of that, many gyms survive because people pay but don’t go.”
• Julian (31:35): “Having a first-degree relative with type 2 diabetes increases the prevalence by two to three times… genetic factors at between 40% and 70% responsible for obesity.”
• Derek (47:01, quoting Michaels): “I’m 51 years old, you know, trying to take on bigger things. I'm trying to help facilitate a change with Big Food and Big Pharma and Big Insurance. And These are the 800-pound gorillas. I want to jump in that ring with.”
• Julian (50:56): “As the years went by and the numbers on the scale climbed again, the contestants’ metabolism did not recover—they became even slower and the pounds kept piling on. It was as if their bodies were intensifying their effort to pull the contestants back to their original weight.”
• Derek (46:17): “She is a terrible human, but so is everyone on this show… but overall, I’d rather they all burn for partaking in this cruel project.”
• Julian on the show’s “temptation” challenges (57:29): “Picture that production meeting. Hey, I’ve got a great idea, guys! Let’s have all these fat people… stuff food into their faces—the most high calorically dense junk food possible—while we film them. They can have an advantage… The whole thing is just really bizarre.”
• Derek (49:34): “The Biggest Loser couldn’t exist if our culture didn’t buy into the idea that obesity is a personal failing.”
• Julian (54:39): “The premise is so cruel. It creates spectacle out of people who are already socially devalued… There’s something very Roman Coliseum about it all.”

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Important Segments by Timestamp

• 03:09 – 08:00: Critique of MAHA, RFK Jr., anti-vax and anti-public health trends
• 18:00 – 22:26: Jillian Michaels’ CNN controversy, her career arc, and "Biggest Loser" context
• 22:26 – 28:10: In-depth breakdown of "Biggest Loser" cruelty and reality TV’s exploitative mechanics
• 31:35 – 34:38: Genetic, social, and BMI-based realities of obesity
• 34:38 – 36:56: Gym membership statistics, fatphobia in fitness, and the myth of personal responsibility
• 46:17 – 50:56: Jillian’s legal tactics, docuseries criticism, and metabolic aftermath
• 54:39 – 57:29: The spectacle and humiliation of "The Biggest Loser" and its winners/losers

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Tone & Language

Maintaining the podcast’s blend of biting humor, righteous anger, and clear-eyed analysis, Derek and Julian combine personal anecdotes from the fitness world, scholarly insight, and media criticism. The episode utilizes sarcasm (“I’d rather they all burn for partaking in this cruel project”), meme-ready one-liners, and moments of empathy, all while retaining the hosts’ hallmark skepticism toward wellness authoritarianism and cultic spectacle.

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Summary Takeaway

The episode ultimately contends that both "The Biggest Loser" and the modern conspirituality-wellness movement perpetuate harm by pushing individual “willpower” while ignoring bigger, more complex truths—biological, social, and political. Whether in a reality show or Congress, figures like Jillian Michaels and RFK Jr. sell spectacle and blame as “solutions,” profiting while the vulnerable remain the real losers.

Transcript

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[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

Hey everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. Derek I'm Derek Barris.

[Julian Walker]

I'm Julian Walker.

[Derek Barris]

Matthew is away this week on a family vacation, but he has pre recorded the brief and bonus for this weekend so you can hear him then and we'll all be together next week. For now we are all on Instagram and threads at Conspirituality Pod as well as individually on Blue Sky. You can access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality. You can also access our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support.

[Julian Walker]

Conspirituality272 Jillian Michaels is the Biggest Loser the unavoidable question of the week why is Jillian Michaels on CNN commenting on slavery? Exactly. As it turns out, Netflix provides the answer. The three part docu series fit for the reality of the Biggest Loser creeps behind the scenes of this uber popular and uber disturbing 18 season reality show that weirdly promoted fat shaming while simultaneously pretending to alleviate it. It turns out that sort of jujitsu falls apart when hearing directly from the producers, contestants and one of the two celebrity trainers, Bob Harper. Gillian declined to participate, which has now resulted in threats of a lawsuit. And as we'll discuss today, we can't shake the feeling that the Biggest Loser from this entire mess is all of us.

[Derek Barris]

This week in Conspirituality. Well Jillian, another week has gone by. Which means another year's worth of destruction over in maha land. Yeah, RFK Jr now has near total personal authority in deciding who is considered medically frail and who has special medical needs, as Mother Jones reports. Why does this matter? Well, if you're on Medicaid, it matters a lot. Kennedy, who as a reminder has no medical training whatsoever, is now being given the power to decide who gets kicked off of that program. Here's how Mother Jones describes it.

[Julian Walker]

A person with debilitating chronic pain or a serious autoimmune illness may appear able bodied by the standards RFK Junior peers poised to implement, even as they face hurdles in qualifying for Social Security disability due to not being considered disabled enough.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, fuck these guys. First of all, able bodied. If you followed the MAHA challenge, watching them try to do push ups and pull ups, they're not very able bodied themselves. And I'm not being facetious. I mean if you're gonn go online to millions of people and be like this is our fitness program and then just off with the actual program, I have no love for you. So besides that, in terms of this particular piece with Medicaid, one public health official speculates that this could play out just like Trump's move of sending National Guard troops to major cities. Target vulnerable people in blue states while accepting the same conditions for those in need in red states. Obviously this is stupid for a number of reasons, including the fact that no state is either all blue or all red. So indiscriminately kicking people off Medicaid in blue states in no way guarantees that they're Democrats. But cruelty does not discriminate in this sense. Number two. Meanwhile, the Daily Beast reports this week that Covid vaccines could be a thing of the past in America. Super anti vaxxer and Covid contrarian Aseem Malhotra told the publication that many of.

[Julian Walker]

Those closest to RFK Jr. Have told him they cannot understand why the vaccine continues to be prescribed and that a decision to remove the vaccine from the US market pending further research will come within months, even if it is likely to cause fear of chaos and bring with it major legal ramifications.

[Derek Barris]

Malhotra we've covered him a little bit but never really focused on him. He's kind of a proto Kennedy. He's been relating diet to chronic diseases since at least 2014. And I don't mean in the eat better for better health kind of way. Early into the pandemic, he published a book called the 21 Day Immunity Plan, in which he claimed that diet could help people reduce their risk of getting or dying from the virus. He's basically rewritten diet books for years and adapted them to whatever cultural situation suited the moment.

[Julian Walker]

Moment.

[Derek Barris]

For example, he published a 21 day low carb diet book in 2017 as well. Jumping on the keto trend.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

Now, strangely, he initially campaigned for the COVID vaccine before coming out hard against MRNA vaccines broadly. We've seen that actually a number of times now. He's a leading advisor to the lobbying group Make America Healthy Again Action. And he's also a close friend of Kennedy. So I'm going to take him at his word that HHS will at least try to make this happen. Number three, Last one for me and then I know you got one. Wall Street Journal reports that scientists are removing words like diverse and disparities from their federal research grants. Jesus Christ. You know, I write this script and then even as I'm reading it, I'm like, I can't believe this is real. So they're removing these words from grants in order to keep the money that HHS has initially promised. Wall Street Journal talked to Tim Nerkowitz, a physiology, pharmacology and toxicology at West Virginia University, who told the paper that an NIH official told him to remove the word diverse from his grant. Here's the context.

[Julian Walker]

Herkovitz was baffled. His work in Appalachia studying how particles get into the lungs and affect health has nothing to do with dei. The first sentence of his grant summary included the word diverse, but that pertained to diverse airborne toxicants.

[Derek Barris]

God, he said the bad word.

[Julian Walker]

Nerkovitz finally got his renewed funding after he changed the phrase to a large variety of airborne toxicants.

[Derek Barris]

I'm working on a new book. I'm like 25,000 words in. It's really flying. But I realized it's sort of half the work I do on the podcast, half memoir. And I'm talking about this stretch in college and I'm writing about diversity and the importance of diversity. And there's a moment where I have to stop and actually, in the text say, I didn't think when I was going to College in the 90s, when we were talking about issues of diversity, that 30 years later I would need to reiterate it because I thought the culture was just going to assume that by that point, and the fact that we are actually further back than we were 30 years ago in this regard, in our understanding of the importance of diversity, just kind of baffles my mind and is giving a framework for that work right now it is super frustrating and we are recording this on Wednesday, the day before this runs. But I even have a feeling, given that I track Kennedy every day on Twitter, that by the time you're listening to this, there's going to be another half dozen stories that could fit into this segment. And I think, Julian, you have at least one more.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, so let's just stay on the MAHA related tip. Given that there's a constant deluge of this shit. With the decades long project of overturning Roe versus Wade firmly in the rear view, the anti abortion movement now has its sights set on ivf. Because some embryos are inevitably discarded in the process of creating a viable pregnancy. Activists see the medical science assisting conception as a form of abortion. One problem for these activists, however, is that Donald Trump campaigned on a promise to protect ivf. Wait, that's not really a problem at all. He even said he'd make sure it was covered by health insurance. And not only has he not followed through on that promise at all, this past April his administration dissolved a CDC panel that tracked IVF outcomes around the country and this allowed potential patients in the past to evaluate the success rates of different fertility clinics. Now, opinions within GOP led legislatures are divided and this is illustrated by some state houses passing protections for ivf, sort of as promised, even as anti choice bills try to encroach upon it. Last year the Alabama Supreme Court led the latter charge, ruling that IVF embryos have the status and rights of being people. And then representatives in the Arkansas House have also floated bills which would charge IVF clinics with homicide as well as trying to create a special license for clinics that offer the service and then requiring the number of fertilized embryos and their outcomes to be reported to their state's department of health. But the thing is the they're already doing that kind of reporting to the cdc. Here's where the story starts to have recognizable conspirituality contours. Some anti abortion conservatives, along with the Heritage foundation, who would have thought, are using MAHA type language to promote a natural and holistic fertility treatment method referred to as restorative reproductive medicine, as listeners might guess. The website for the International Institute of Restorative Reproductive Medicine tells us that this approach seeks to identify the underlying health conditions that contribute to reproductive dysfunction and suboptimal reproductive health. They provide personalized treatment plans with methods that include what seems like a lot of tests, medications, supplements, surgeries and lifestyle adjustments. Yeah, it sounds like bespoke so called functional medicine for the reproductive system. When Qualified fertility experts point out that these methods are not supported by medical science. Proponents of RRM say they are being suppressive.

[Derek Barris]

I'm sure Mark Hyman and his Function Health is going to get a contract for this. I've called it for this fall when the private partner public partnerships began and I'm pretty sure Function. They've actually just recently bought an mri, a full body MRI company. Experts have said that most people don't need full body MRIs. It's just pretty much garbage and a waste of money. But they bought that and I'm guessing it's going to line up with things like this for these types of partnerships. I found some nice reporting on this topic from Kentucky Lantern. They write, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists call RRM a non medical approach and an unproven concept that can delay time to pregnancy and exposure, expose patients to needless and painful surgical interventions such as procedures to treat polycystic ovarian syndrome. It says the approach overwhelmingly puts the onus on women, ignoring the infertile that infertility causes are just as common in men, which is completely true.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

They also point out that clinics have ties to private equity firms and other large corporations, which when you know, you brought up Heritage foundation, that puts it into context because they very much are about the privatization of as much health care as possible, as they laid out Project 2025.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And as you pointed out, the word surgeries is on that list of holistic treatments. And this often refers also to surgical excision of endometriosis tissue, which is erroneously proposed as being the main barrier to pregnancy. So you're not going to need all of that like, you know, satanic IVF stuff. We'll just go in there, cut things out and then you'll be able to magically get pregnant.

[Derek Barris]

What if they do psychic surgeries?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, exactly. That would be probably as effective. In some cases, these procedures may be unnecessary. They may expose the patient to the standard risks associated with surgery and have little or no impact on fertility. According to the American College of Gynecology, Gynecologists and obstetricians. Meanwhile, the state of Arkansas has actually passed a bill called the Restore act which requires that insurance companies. And this is part of what you were referencing a moment ago, Derek, in terms of people starting to wet their beaks, insurance companies have to cover these treatments. Proponents refer to it as ethical IVF. The Guardian also reports that last month RFK Jr. S Department of HHS posted a notice soliciting applications for a proposed $1.5 million grant to fund an annual infertility training center that would expand access to resources for holistic infertility treatments rather than assisted reproductive technology.

[Derek Barris]

You know, there's already a term for ethical ivf. It's called ivf.

[Julian Walker]

Ivf. Yeah, exactly. It's right. It's a tautology to nail this whole crunchy meets conservative horseshoe that, you know, we endlessly described firmly to the hoof. The National Catholic Bioethics Center's website claims that RRM seeks to get to the root cause of infertility. Root cause has made it into Catholic discourse.

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[Julian Walker]

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[Podcast Listener/Commentator]

I was watching CNN and I saw where Jillian Michaels was was on there in a debate that she seemed to have started. And they were talking about changes to the Smithsonian and how art and culture shifts between who has the power to dictate how the exhibits are written, who the exhibits are of, and everything. And Jillian Michaels was like, it's so unfair that slavery in this country only gets blamed on one race. Look, look, as outrageous as that is, that is genuinely funny. Like, look, look, I'm not gonna tell anybody how to feel, but if you heard the words I said that Jillian said and you immediately got angry, I would ask you to take a step back. I'm not going to tell you how to feel. You could be angry. You want to be angry because it is a very short sighted, ignorant thing to say, but that's precisely why it's so funny. It is absolutely hilarious.

[Derek Barris]

All right, well, last week we played the CNN clip in question on the podcast, but I wanted to start off this discussion with a bit of a laugh that comes to you via the Daily show correspondent and new host now, Josh Johnson. Plus, there's a straight line from Jillian Michael's role as one of the two coaches on the Biggest Loser to her now prominent role in maha, where, for example, RFK Jr invited her to speak in front of Congress last fall. She also regularly hosts Maha influencers on her podcast. And I think the safest assumption that line drags across is she's completely unqualified for any position she's been in in.

[Julian Walker]

Her career, but willing to speak very loud, loudly and aggressively on whatever topic is in front of her.

[Derek Barris]

Oh, absolutely. I'll get into this when we do synopsis, but her as a, as a coach is a, is a joke. So be clear on that. The Biggest Loser is back in the cultural discourse thanks to the Netflix docu series Fit for tv, which surveys a few select seasons from the show. It's not exhaustive by any means. Michaels was one of two trainers for the first 11 seasons. She returned for seasons 14 and 15. Her counterpart, Bob Harper, was a trainer on all 18. He also did three for the Australian version of the show. Notably, Michaels did not appear in the Netflix series while Harper did, which made for a lot of the blame placed on Michaels for offering contestants caffeine pills and for which she's now considering suing Netflix for We'll get there. It's a little more complex than that, but the fallout from the series, I think, is as interesting as the series itself. Before we get into that, Julian, what did you think about Fit for tv?

[Julian Walker]

I mean, I feel like a lot of people in our demographic probably I really missed out on the explosion of reality TV in general when it was happening. So it's been a little bit of an anthropological expedition for me to learn about this show. I'm stunned that it was hugely popular for 17 or 18 seasons. I'll say more about why a little bit later. Fit for TV the documentary is fascinating because it examines the cultural phenomenon of this hugely successful Biggest Loser series in which very heavy people, the average starting weight being about 328 pounds, competed to see who could lose the most weight week by week over a 30 week period. And to do so, they utilized this combination of intense exercise, caloric restriction, dehydration, as it turns out, and other more controversial Methods. Overall, I feel like this documentary depicts a sickening blend of desperate enthusiasm, relentless shaming, and that weird live audience, reality TV kind of circus vibe. And Jillian Michaels, who we've been talking about lately in our Instagram quite a bit as well, rose to fame as a trainer on the Biggest Loser, which made me kind of feel like I was just watching another season of Jillian Michaels is an awful human being, especially given how much she's been in the news lately. As you flagged. For anyone who had any doubt, going back and watching her on the Biggest Loser confirms she is someone with a rare level of unapologetic sadism. And that's. That's not a common trait. The Netflix stock does something the actual show, as it turns out, failed to do, which is follow up with former contestants and check in on their physical and mental health. So more on that to come.

[Derek Barris]

Kara Swisher, the podcast host and journalist, was on Jillian Michaels podcast, and she actually posted yesterday about it, saying her reasons for being on it, but also saying that being in the room with Jillian, she was actually surprised by how confident she was in her own ignorance, basically. Which I think is a good synopsis for other people that I've heard from who have interacted with Jillian on that level during this entire time. I never watched the Biggest Loser. I watched season one of Real House on MTV in, what, like, 93? Something like that. That was the beginning of what we now know as Rally tv.

[Julian Walker]

The real world, you mean.

[Derek Barris]

Real world. Thank you.

[Julian Walker]

It was in the house.

[Derek Barris]

It was in the house.

[Julian Walker]

I actually auditioned for that show. I was like, 21 years old. Yeah. I got to the second stage.

[Derek Barris]

Wow. Oh, D. I'm sorry you didn't make it further.

[Julian Walker]

I'm really glad I didn't.

[Derek Barris]

But that was my whole interaction. Then I went to college, and then reality TV just became a joke to me. But I do remember when the series was running. During the entire time it ran, I was a fitness instructor at Equinox, so I was parallel to it. And I want to be clear on one thing that I think is really important that I've learned for decades of teaching different modalities in fitness. Different people take to different instructors and different kinds of instruction. I was never one to yell at people. I was not a screamer. I tried to amp people up in kettlebell classes or cycling, but. But to actually degrade people was something that I and all of my colleagues that I knew at Equinox. That was not what we did. I do think there is a population that feeds off of that. And that is what the Biggest Loser thrived from and sort of why it was a spectacle. Famously, the boot camp scene sometimes CrossFit had that ethos and mentality of like, no pain, no gain. I don't like it. I understand for some it has utility. I just want to be really clear on that because I'm super critical of what the Biggest Loser did, is what we're going to get into. But I do find. And one thing that really came out watching this series was how cult, like both Jillian and Bob were in their approach of breaking people down and then trying to build them back up. Like that kept coming across. And you can argue that it's the editing and the way it was positioned, which is very shady and very meant to invoke emotions in the watchers, the viewers, not the contestants.

[Julian Walker]

But.

[Derek Barris]

But that came across over and over again. How they would just shit on people and then pretend like they were there to actually help them. And big picture, I don't think that's helpful for anyone. The series, as I said, it only looks at a couple of seasons and only a couple of contestants. I think they did a pretty good job at giving a broad overview, but obviously with 18 seasons, they missed a lot, including in the few seasons they discussed. That includes a big focus on the series, which is the seventh season, which was in 2009. They did two seasons a year, so it didn't last for 17 or 18 years. This was the second time they featured couples on the show. There was a woman named Joelle Gwyn who was heavily featured in Fit for tv. She had a falling out with her friend Carla Trippitt. So I went back and I watched the first episode of that season and then tagged and then watched a few other episodes in preparation for this podcast. It turns out that the fallout happened in the first week of the season. I mean, this. This fallout takes almost an entire episode of the three episodes. But, yeah, it was only in week one of that season. It couldn't have happened later because of a plot twist that the producers introduced into the series. And I'm including it here because it highlights the sort of cruelty the show is infamous for. And they really don't discuss this in. In the docu series. Think about this. You're overweight and you want to get on the Biggest Loser to help you lose weight and to get healthy and to feel better about yourself. You submit a tape with your friend or your relative and you get accepted. The very beginning of the first episode, it features the contestants finding out they were Chosen. It was sheer excitement and joy. Then, a week into filming, you take part in a race with your partner as part of the series. As it turns out, the winner receives immunity at the first weigh in. So the way that the show is structured, if you lose the least amount of weight in a week, you get kicked off the island. So winning this race is huge. It means you could have lost the least amount of weight, but you wouldn't get kicked off. Then you get to the weigh in and this is what happens.

[Biggest Loser Show Announcer]

Tonight, there will be no eliminations.

[Julian Walker]

What? Huh? Huh? That is awesome.

[Derek Barris]

I knew it. I knew it.

[Julian Walker]

She's not done.

[Derek Barris]

What's the catch?

[Julian Walker]

What's the catch? What's the catch?

[Biggest Loser Show Announcer]

Tonight there will be no elimination, but nine of you.

[Derek Barris]

Are going home.

[Biggest Loser Show Announcer]

Here's how it's going to work. Each team will weigh in and it will be the team with the highest combined percentage of weight loss who will be above the yellow line. Dane and Blaine, you want immunity this week. So you are the only couple that is safe here on campus tonight. The only other couple that will be safe tonight is the couple that wins the weigh in. The nine teens who fall below the yellow line will have to choose one person from each couple to go home.

[Julian Walker]

When Allison announced the twist, I was devastated. I was just like, are you kidding me? We've only been here for a week.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. So just fucking cruel, like. And that was what they introduced for that series. And I'm kind of surprised the documentary doesn't go into that. But that's the mentality. I think that's a good heuristic for understanding the mentality of the people behind this entire expedition.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, as someone who did not grow up in this country like this, this is. This could be just a microcosm of everything that people outside of America so distasteful about so much of American entertainment and spectacle. I feel like this kind of reality TV is the incestuous love child of the most base level social conditioning and primal emotions as stimulated by that over the top music. And then that. That game that kids often play where, you know, you ask each other things like, if one of your parents had to die, would you pick your mom or your dad? Or would you rather have a dog bite off three of your fingers or have your grandma go blind? You know, it's like, what are we even doing here? It creates car crash scenari that you struggle to look away from. But the cultural collateral damage is really not worth it. And my stomach tightens as I cringe for the hopeful ordinary people thrust into the limelight to mostly just be sacrificed on the altar of crappy entertainment right now. Regarding fitness and weight loss, of course, it's such loaded territory. Everyone is better off if they maintain healthy levels of weight and activity. And yeah, it's true, people treat us differently when we fit certain ideals better than when we are obese. It can feel empowering and even improve mental health to regain a sense of control over these areas of our lives. But there are certain statistics that always stay with me that we've talked about before, Derek, like the facts that having a first degree relative with type 2 diabetes increases the prevalence by two to three times when compared to the rest of the population. And that goes up to a 70% likelihood of developing the condition if both parents had it. Current research also puts genetic factors at between 40% and 70% responsible for obesity too. I know we're going to inevitably talk about RFK Jr and Maha some more, but as a little preview here, you know Kennedy loves to claim that 70% of Americans are obese and sometimes he corrects himself and says that 70% of Americans are overweight, which actually makes a big difference because the 40% of Americans that are actually obese are included in that larger number, with the rest being mere severely overweight. When we look up these percentages for other Anglophile countries in the developed world like the UK, Australia, Canada, they're all at around 65% overweight. So it does seem to be a problem of wealthier societies. And I would argue we might make up that. I would speculate here we might make up that additional 5% that the US has over those other countries due to greater income inequality and food deserts. But then let's also just step back and remember that all of this is based on bmi, which is an extremely flawed heuristic that was never designed to be used at a population level. And that BMI rating also incorrectly skews many very healthy people with athletic muscle mass into overweight or even obese categories, no matter how fit or how lean they might be. This is an alarming factoid that Kennedy likes to use that plays into the conspiracist pseudo science strategy of catastrophizing about a problem, speculating without evidence about its cause, and then claiming, hey, we've got the magical solution right here. You know, it's going to be like tallow on your french fries and real sugar in Coca Cola and it's going to solve the obesity and diabetes epidemic, right? Fat people get hugely stigmatized by all of this for reasons that are totally unfair and discriminatory, as if all of us would look like them unless we had such high levels of, like, moral and dietary fiber.

[Derek Barris]

BMI is. Is so frustrating. I mean, I'm 6:3. For so much of my life, I maintain a body weight of about 185. And I remember friends and. And my wife would be like, you're not eating enough because of the workouts that I do. And then finally, one thing about COVID is that I actually started to be like, let me actually eat more. Also started creatine, but let me see if I can actually put on mass. And I'm up 210. And I'm healthier than I've ever been. I'm stronger than I've ever been. At 50. All of my blood markers that I get at the doctor, I'm in the top 1 or 2% for my age group. But officially, according to the BMI calculator, I'm considered overweight.

[Julian Walker]

Yep. Yep. Me too. Me too. And you haven't done that just with that. You've been doing a lot of heavy lifting, so you. You have packed on a certain amount of muscle through that deliberate process.

[Derek Barris]

Exactly. That's why I decided to put on weight, because I was lifting above what my frame could handle, and I was getting so some back issues. And I said, okay, let me actually address this. And I did. And I feel much better now than I did five years ago when I started, even though officially I'm overweight, according to what Maha references as being someone that needs to lose weight. Totally speaking of Maha, this entire series got me thinking about them. You can't avoid it because the way that Bob and Jillian treat fat people sounds exactly like how Kennedy and his crew berate them. So it makes sense that Jillian has become a big part of maha. Specifically, I kept thinking about Kennedy saying, every American should get a free gym membership about a year ago. On its face, if you were to just say, hey, everyone should have access to a gym for free, I. I'm actually down for that. And there are actually opportunities like this. I. I got into this with people on threads who are making the similar argument. New York City, where I live for a dozen years, they have city gyms all over the boroughs. They cost $150 a year. If you're 25 or under, you go for free. If you're 65 or older, they cost $25 a year. Here in Portland, where I now live, you can go to any Rec City in the city. For $30 a month. But there's a catch. If you're low income, you can get discounts up to free. And it's an honors program. You don't even have to prove your income. I'm going to guess a lot of cities have similar programs. Yet only 20.6% of Americans have a gym membership. On top of that, many gyms survive because people pay but don't go. Oh yeah, I've read stats. Between 50 and 90% of members don't go to their gym once in a month even though they're paying. The cheaper the gym, the more people don't go. So Planet Fitness has about a 10 rate of people going every month because it costs $10 a month. Now where I worked at Equinox, which cost cost 225, 250amonth per gym. The, the retention rate was 50%. That means half the people paying that money didn't actually go in a month.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, and, and most of those people who are not going are people who signed up as a New Year's resolution and paid for the whole year. Right, that's, that's the model.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah. You can't do that at Equinox, but with other gyms, that is correct.

[Julian Walker]

Okay.

[Derek Barris]

The story is way more complicated than get a gym remote membership. What Kennedy and many other fitfluencers miss is the fact that people don't like gyms and for a number of reasons. One is that fat people are relentlessly judged in them. Now obviously this depends not only on the gym, but the time of the day you're able to go. Here in Portland, I go to LA Fitness. I'm there by 6am every morning. And the before the work before work crew is getting get out. It's blissfully quiet and calm as people do their thing. But I've also gone later in the day sometimes and it's, it's a zoo. I get why people would hate that environment. I'm someone who grew up in these spaces. Basement gym. My father built one when I was growing up. He also on a volunteer basis, ran his company gym. And so I was going there all the time. So for me, I, I swim in those waters. A lot of people don't. So to say, hey, you're overweight, get in this gym and expect people would just take to it is absurd. You know, also along the lines of this topic, it came out recently that Serena Williams lost 31 pounds by using GLP1 medication. She said that she struggled with her weight after the birth of her second child. She's been posting workout photos mentioning how great she feels. So there were a lot of rumors about how she lost the weight. Now, right on cue, I saw a ton of comments about how she's cheap eating. You have here one of the top tennis players ever to play the game who was criticized then for being larger. And now that she's lost some weight, she's being criticized for how she lost it.

[Julian Walker]

Can't win.

[Derek Barris]

Exactly. There's obviously some gender dynamics here. In general, women are on way more for using Ozempic than men because are always quicker to criticize women about anything. But it's just the hypocrisy of people in this space, including Kennedy and Maha, most of whom hate GLP1 interventions. As one commenter I saw wrote on one of the threads about Serena, just say you hate fat people. The most outspoken critics of Ozempic at all that I've seen are fitness influencers and trainers because they stand to lose income from coaching and supplement sales. Their stated reason always falls back on the personal responsibility trait rope. You just don't have the willpower, fatty. Which is why Maha just feels like the latest season of the Biggest Loser.

[Julian Walker]

Oh yeah.

[Derek Barris]

Kennedy's recent challenge alongside Pete hegseth of doing 50 pull ups and a hundred push ups is so fitting for this moment. Even though they can't do it themselves. It's all spectacle. Oh, and Cash Patel. I posted this. Cash Patel tried it and that was a nightmare as well.

[Julian Walker]

It's like Kennedy dragging Dr. Oz up the side of that hill, rock climbing, things like, oh boy, these are our fearless leaders into like perfect health and fitness.

[Derek Barris]

Do you know how hard pull ups are for someone who doesn't know how to do? I know people who are very strong and fit and they can't do a pull up. It is a completely different exercise and same thing. I mean, you know from yoga that Chaturanga's low push ups are not for everyone because people don't have the sort of training to do a proper push up. And then they go in yoga classes and they try to match the teacher doing a low push up and then shred their shoulders. Their neck is in the wrong position, their traps are all scrunched up. Like just put your knees down or just stay in plank. There's so many other options, but we just have this go, go, go mentality in all of our workouts in America and you're going to hurt people, which is what this challenge is going to do to people who are like, yeah, I can do These things. No, you can't. And that's okay. It's okay that you can't learn how to do one pull up correctly with bands however you need. But don't go pretend you could do 50 and then you look like ass like Hegseth or Kennedy who are doing chin ups. First of all, they're not even doing pull ups, and they can't even do those correctly. And I'm not one to hate on people's workouts in general. My thought has always been, if you're exercising and having fun, go for it, Zumba your heart out. But the former fitness instructor, me just watching their dumb video, it's just so hard given that you need full range of motion for push ups and pull ups.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And Derek, how many people can actually do even 50 chin ups? Like, that's a lot. Most people can't do 10 or five. That's actually an extraordinary challenge to just think you're going to walk into and do right away as someone who's not.

[Derek Barris]

Actively engaged like that in 10 minutes too. And that's the other thing. They're putting a time limit up it. And then you're watching videos and it's a lot of people that they're resharing, like Riley Gaines, like Kennedy re shared her video being, I could do it. No, you can't. You know, you're. First of all, you're 36 weeks pregnant. And second of all, like, your form is horrible, which you do, to her credit, say that. But it's like, why are you sharing this? People don't need that. They need help. They don't need that spectacle.

[Julian Walker]

Totally.

[Derek Barris]

And the only reason I'm commenting is because they're presenting themselves as paragons of help, health, and trying to, I don't know, inspire Americans to exercise. Yet they don't even learn the exercises that they're challenging others to do. Which is why Maha is as much a spectacle as the biggest loser. It's not about helping people get healthy. It's about showing off that you are. Jillian already got the call to join Maha. I'm guessing Bob Harper will get the call next, though, as we're going to discuss in the next segment, I'm pretty sure Jillian will box him out of that opportunity.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, and this is. This is yet another perhaps unsurprising, but nonetheless novel iteration of, like, how this influencer, contrarian kind of assumption of expertise plays out even in the physical domain. It's like, oh, yeah, of course I could do that. I can do anything. I have strong opinions about everything even though I've never studied it and I'm not qualified and I could just like go and do a bunch of pull ups and push ups on on camera because of course I can. Foreign.

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[Julian Walker]

One of the very prominent subplots here is that Jillian Michaels is one of the few cast members who declined to participate. So unlike the other coach, the staff doctor, the producers who all get to tell their side of the story, along with several former contestants, Michaels instead just gets shown in all of her cruel drill sergeant intensity. She gets in people's faces, she insults them, she berates them. At one point, she throws a bucket of ice water over someone's head while they're like collapsed on the ground about to pass out. Overall, she really just seems to have a real appetite for sadism. The main controversy of the show involving Michaels is that the doctor, a guy named Robert Huizenger, has said that he forbade the use of caffeine pills based on safety reasons, but that Gillian went ahead and secretly gave them to the contestants on her team behind everyone's back. And when this was discovered, they actually acknowledged it on the show in an episode, a very dramatic kind of moment, and gave her team a penalty because she broke the rules. And then for her part, she's unrepentant during the broadcast and in later interviews, saying that she stood by what she did because there was unlimited coffee available to everyone. And so what's the difference? In fact, she thinks that caffeine pills are healthier than drinking tons of coffee. Science actually disagrees, but when has that stopped anyone like her?

[Derek Barris]

The New York Times just did a feature on Michael's, and I love that they pull a quote from her when she was talking to Rogan of being like, who has the time to fact check all these things?

[Julian Walker]

You have a lot of time to run your mouth, though. Some contestants alleged that other drugs like diuretics and even unnamed surgery street drugs were allegedly used. And Dr. Huizinger is suing the New York Post for publishing those allegations. And so they retract the article. Michaels has now spoken out and she said that she is considering suing Netflix and Bob Harper, the other trainer on the show and the producers of the documentary. And she's been sharing emails that show how on other seasons caffeine pills actually were allowed and were distributed by her and Harper and the doctors and the dietitians on the show. Show. But of course, she's still acknowledging, yeah, I went behind people's back even though I wasn't allowed to do this.

[Derek Barris]

Jillian Michaels in general and specifically to this episode, but kudos to her for saving the receipts. So what happens is they do show that moment that she admitted it on the show. And then you have everyone else being like, we didn't know about all of this. But then she comes out and she shares on Instagram text messages and emails showing that everyone was in on it all the time on all the other seasons, on all the other seasons, but showing that it's a trend and that they were really pushing something called Stackers to. To try to get in on it. So she's framed as the worst person here because she wasn't involved. She had a fall of Bob Harper, whatever. And she is a terrible human, but so is everyone on this show. I have to give her credit for shoving it back into their face case, but overall, I'd rather they all burn. Far take for partaking in this cruel project.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, yeah. And I, I don't remember his name, but the main producer guy has so many moments where he's. It's just like you seem like you're lying right now. He really tries to act like butter wouldn't melt in his mouth and I didn't know anything about that. And then big swallow and kind of eyes look in four different directions. It's like, I don't know about this. Michaels, for her part, is also taking the opportunity now to speak out against the woke body positivity movement, which is being critical of the show in hindsight. Right? And she says this is actually a conspiratorial psyop by Big Food. The only good news for her is that maybe it's distracting from her boneheaded slavery. Comments I don't know.

[Derek Barris]

People can hold multiple thoughts in their head when it comes to this level of egregiousness. The full quote of what you just referenced I think is even more telling. Quote I'm 51 years old, you know, trying to take on bigger things. I'm trying to help facilitate a change with big food and big pharma and big insurance. And These are the £800 gorillas. I want to jump in that ring with her. Her ego is just unmatched here. I also just want to say the one shining moment of this entire podcast is friend of the Pod, RB Gordon, who does a fantastic job of contextualizing what has happened, what was happening during the show, when it was happening, and then also how that reverberates throughout the culture. So I do highly recomm series, if not just to see her commentary on that.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, she's great on it. Every, every moment she has is really strong.

[Derek Barris]

Yes, the Biggest Loser couldn't exist if our culture didn't buy into the idea that obesity is a personal failing. While disdain for fat people predates the 80s, Reaganomics very specifically dictated that all health is person personal as a way to avoid discussions of socialized medicine. Still the same thing happening right now. And so you have another conspirituality crossover. The right disdains giving away anything for free, while the left, specifically a portion of the wellness community and the fitfluencer community, loathes fatness. There are overweight people who let things go. I don't want to overlook at they have the means to eat better, they can afford a gym, they have the time to do all these things. They just don't. I can't turn my eyes from that. And if there weren't people like this, I don't think the Biggest Loser could even exist. But personal responsibility is not the only reason people gain weight. Let's just consider a few Other reasons? Genetic predisposition, which you mentioned earlier. Medical conditions like hypothyroidism, polycystic ovary syndrome, Cushing syndrome, hypothalamic obesity. Tons of medications promote weight gain, including steroids, antidepressants, antipsychotics, diabetes medications, beta blockers, Caesar medications, birth control pills Aging Muscle mass decreases naturally over time, so aging will inevitably increase weight for a lot of people. Poor sleep is a huge one. Chronic stress is a huge one. Economic status is a huge one. Built environment, work and time pressures. Big Wellness is does address a few of these, but usually by trying to sell you something. Yeah, not sleeping. Pay for this app to track you to sleep. Buy this supplement Stress the out. We have a workout program for you. And I'm not even hating on those things because exercise does wonders for stress, which could have downstream weight loss effects. But if you're a Jillian Michaels style aspiring trainer cleaner, how are you going to sell a program that addresses the fact that your family is poor? That's not Maha's target audience. Kennedy loves to yell about how many people are over prescribed medications and is now using his power at HHS to launch an investigation into it. But connecting them with weight gain is a step too far, and he's certainly not going to address the social determinants of health while making videos about how he loves to visit local gyms while he's traveling on his private plain. Then there's another layer, one which the New York Times covered back in 2016. Most contestants put the weight back on and for some higher than their original weight after the show, and that has little to do with personal responsibility. I pulled a few graphs from an article that was from that New York Times story and Julian, can you read them in full? I think it really sets the context here.

[Julian Walker]

It has to do with resting metabolism, metabolism which determines how many calories a person burns when at rest. When the show began, the contestants, though hugely overweight, had normal metabolisms for their size, meaning they were burning a normal number of calories for people of their weight. When it ended, their metabolisms had slowed radically and their bodies were not burning enough calories to maintain their thinner sizes. Researchers knew that just about anyone who deliberately loses weight, even if they start at a normal weight or even underweight, will have a slower metabolism when the diet ends. So they were not surprised to see that the Biggest Loser contestants had slow metabolisms when the show ended. What shocked the researchers was what happened next. As the years went by and the numbers on the scale climbed again, the contestants metabolism did not recover they became even slower and the pounds kept piling on. It was as if their bodies were intensifying their effort to pull the contestants back to their original weight.

[Derek Barris]

It so hypocritical. You know, Casey and Cali means the, you know, the nominee for Surgeon General and Kennedy's, one of his main advisors wrote a book called Good Energy, all about metabolic Health, claiming that metabolic health health is responsible for 90% of disease. They don't mention this. I read the book. They don't talk about this phenomenon. They want to sell you things. They want to sell you levels, which is glucose monitoring programs and, and hardware. They want to sell you supplements. They want to pretend that metabolic health is all within your grasp. If you just do these things when actual researchers know that's not true.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, it's the, it's the biohacking optimization version version of Medicare for All. It's just insane.

[Derek Barris]

This whole phenomenon throws a big old wrench into the ethos presented on the show and one that is endemic to Maha. Eat better, move more and you're magically going to lose weight. It's not that there's anything wrong again with those things, with eating better, perhaps eating less, without with exercising more. It's just not that everybody responds to those things in the same way. Especially if you've been overweight.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. And when you lose two or three hundred pounds very, very, very rapidly and you put yourself through levels of activity that your body has not seen in your entire life in a very short period of time and you dehydrate yourself radically week after week. Yeah. That's gonna, your whole system is gonna have a massive issue trying to integrate all of those intense, you know, polarizing back and forth dynamics that are going on.

[Derek Barris]

And it's not like this hasn't been studied. I, I've worked in this industry for decades and, and one of the things that was true 30 years ago that's still true today is that a healthy amount of weight loss is one, maybe two pounds a week. If you're doing more than that, maybe initially some people will lose a little more, mostly because of water weight when they start working out. But if you're maintaining something above that, there's probably a whole lot of downstream effects that aren't going to be good for you. So having a little bit of understanding of how the process works is really important because it'll help you mentally just to have a realistic goal here, which could mean £50 over the course of a year if you work at it, if that is your goal. But if you're dropping £200 in 12 weeks, man, that, that is not a good thing for your body.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, but how exciting is a TV show in which you're losing one or two pounds a week? So I said before I found it just stunning that the show was so popular. And it's because my first impressions, as most people are going to have watching fit for tv, is that the premise is so cruel. It creates spectacle out of people who are already socially devalued and seen as lacking in self respect and discipline. At the same time. It promised those contestants a way to redeem themselves by participating in a competitive ordeal with millions of people watching. So obviously it was a pretty like extroverted kind of person who wanted attention, who ended up being on the show, as you saw from their audition videos. And the redemption is not only about health, but it's about being more attractive, or to put it more honestly, about being less disgusting. And that's all while defeating those not able to get back on the treadmill after vomiting or almost passing out while Jillian Michael screamed sadistic abuse in their face. There's something very Roman Coliseum about it all to me, me and the fact that so many applicants were clamoring to be on it really gives the lie to prejudices about fat people being lazy or weak. They're desperate. They're like, oh yeah, okay, I'll try this. While also underlining their conditioned familiarity with being humiliated. Like they've developed a tolerance for being treated that shittily. It's also outrageous that each season had this winner take all grand prize of $250,000, with all of the loser losers apparently being paid around 100 bucks a day to be there. Even though some negotiated for slightly more than that. It's still tiny in comparison. Meanwhile, the stars of the show, the producers and the network got very, very wealthy in the process. Then there were all of the this is the worst part for me, the weirdly exploitive temptation challenges they called them that involved choosing to either gorge yourself on as much high calorie junk food as possible so as to then prizes that might give you an advantage in the competition, or instead choosing to resist temptation and just stay on the straight and narrow with your weight loss goals. That was also really gross spectacle.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, I had no idea about that because as I said, I didn't watch the show. And what, what kind of broken brain thinks, hey, this is a good idea, yeah, and then actually implements it. It really does. One thing the documentary does really well is, is pick out moments of where they are just humiliating the people.

[Julian Walker]

Where.

[Derek Barris]

They'Re carrying food around in their mouth, running around, and, and it's just, it's so dystopian.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, like, picture that. Production meeting. Hey, I've got a great idea, guys. Let's have all of these fat people who are desperately trying to lose hundreds of pounds be faced with this temptation where if they just absolutely stuff food into their faces, the most like, high calorically dense junk food possible while we film this, them, they can have an advantage in trying to lose a ton of weight over the people they're trying to beat. I mean, it's. The whole thing is just really bizarre. I think the documentary does a really good job of exposing this cruelty as well as the medical irresponsibility and the prioritizing of ratings and money over the physical and mental health of the participants. It also holds up a mirror to the perhaps kind of literal, in this case, bread and certain circus American culture of competitive spectacle that thrives as much on rooting for the everyman as on also getting sadistic enjoyment out of his or her humiliation and defeat.

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