276: Inventing Saint Charlie Kirk

Summary

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Conspirituality, Episode 276: "Inventing Saint Charlie Kirk"

Release Date: September 25, 2025
Hosts: Derek Beres, Matthew Remski, Julian Walker

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Episode Overview

This episode deconstructs the assassination of Charlie Kirk, founder of Turning Point USA, and scrutinizes the spiraling creation of his martyrdom amongst the American right. The hosts analyze how Kirk’s death became a flashpoint for reactionary myth-making, grift among wellness influencers, and the co-mingling of Christian nationalism with conspiratorial politics. They discuss the fraught and toxic environment created by these dynamics, the hyper-monetization of tragedy, and the role of both left and right-wing media in shaping the national narrative. The episode also debates liberal responses to Kirk’s death, evangelical “sainthood,” and coalition-building on the left in a time of growing extremism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Assassination of Charlie Kirk: Narrative Chaos

[03:27–09:28]

• Julian recounts Kirk’s assassination during a campus speech at Utah Valley University, and the rapid mobilization of right-wing voices declaring Kirk a martyr akin to Martin Luther King Jr.
• Shell casings left at the site led to wild speculation: initial reports said they were anti-fascist messages, then nihilistic memes, then possible far-right Groypers references.
• Motive remains unclear; speculation swirls over the shooter’s background—including possible ties to the far-right, meme culture, or a transgender partner.
• An undercurrent of paranoia and hair-trigger rhetoric permeates the evangelical community's response; a vigil in Neptune Beach, Florida, typified by “an incendiary cocktail of politics and religion.”

Quote:
“Charlie Kirk died because of his stand. It is good and evil. It's evil that they want to kill babies... It's evil that about 70% of the transgender people are... teenagers. What does that tell you about indoctrination?”
— Unidentified Evangelical Speaker at vigil, [08:04]

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2. The Making of a Martyr and Christian Nationalist Hagiography

[09:29–15:07]

• Turning Point USA is now not just a conservative campus group, but “a vehicle for Christian nationalism,” supporting Seven Mountain Mandate ideology—Christians presiding over “business, government, media, arts, education, family, and religion.”
• The movement aligns with charismatic leaders, Christian nationalist politicians (e.g., Marjorie Taylor Greene), and New Apostolic Reformation figures, creating a "spiritual warfare" frame for political opponents.

Quote:
“This is an ultra conservative, deeply reactionary, cult like movement that believes it can revive the gifts of the Holy Spirit... They see the world itself as a spiritual battlefield.”
— Julian Walker, [14:11]

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3. Meme Culture, Nihilism, and Extremism within the Right

[17:16–21:36]

• The hosts unpack the emergence of meme-driven nihilistic violence, in which both left and right symbols are scrambled for shock or chaos, making motives elusive.
• Meme violence is often rooted in “black pill” hatred, resisting not just liberals but institutional MAGA efforts to “build” — viewing compromise as betrayal.
• Post-millennialist Christian nationalism wants not apocalypse, but total Christian dominion as a precondition to the Second Coming.

Quote:
“For them, Turning Point USA and every attempt at MAGA integration dulls the blade of pure rebellion. Ergo, Kirk was a sellout because he wanted to build electoral power.”
— Matthew Rimsky, [19:04]

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4. The Backlash: Targeting Journalists, Doxxing, Stochastic Terrorism

[21:46–26:33]

• Coverage by independent journalists like @heyitstwig (“Hey, it’s Twig”) is met with harassment and threats.
• The right uses “retroactive justification”—accusing opponents of methods they themselves are engaged in, e.g., hate speech, doxxing, stochastic terrorism.
• The language of “hate speech” is being redefined and weaponized by the right.

Quote:
“The whole doxing website that Charlie supporters have come up with... You're not gonna shut me up. You tried to intimidate me, you tried to silence me and all you did was give me a megaphone.”
— Hey, it’s Twig, [22:19]

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5. Power over Principle: The Hypocrisy Discourse

[26:07–27:36]

• The right is unfazed by accusations of hypocrisy; for many supporters, managing contradiction is part of the appeal.
• Cited analysis from podcasts like "Know Your Enemy": hypocrisy is not a meaningful charge for Trump supporters due to ongoing internal conflicts and the function of "owning the libs."
• The regime of “power over principle” exposes the futility of expecting hypocrisy charges to prompt self-reflection or change.

Quote:
“For a Trump supporter, hypocrisy is just baked into the way in which the person is living... These are symptoms of internal conflicts... and Trump gives them permission to solve that tension.”
— Matthew Rimsky, [26:33]

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6. The Grift: Wellness Influencers Monetize Tragedy

[32:40–44:54]

• Prominent wellness conspiracy figures (Dr. Jess Petros, Mickey Willis, JP Sears, Leland Stillman) exploit Kirk’s death to push anti-vax, anti-government, and toxin-cleansing products.
• Unsubstantiated connections are made between COVID vaccines and violence, with pseudo-medical justifications and fear-mongering.
• Kirk’s own “medical freedom” stance and anti-vax content made him a natural fit for these influencer grift networks.

Quote:
“100% of the people who are excited and happy about a young father and husband’s death have gotten the COVID vaccine... this shot can rip the humanity right out of people.”
— Dr. Jess Petros, [32:40]

Quote:
“They do have this fantastical vision of a post liberal, post secular America that looks like illustrations from Sunday school books or Star Trek or a mixture of the both. But for the most part... they’re nihilists...”
— Matthew Rimsky, [19:59]

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7. The Kirk Memorial: Evangelical Sainthood and Political Opportunism

[52:12–62:02]

• The Kirk memorial is described as a mega-church meets MAGA political rally, infused with “triumphalism of the evangelical Jesus,” opportunistic glorification by politicians, and even awkward religious performances by non-believers like Trump.
• The creation of a martyr narrative is compared to historic fascist mythmaking (e.g., Horst Wessel under the Nazis).
• Kirk’s composure, discipline, lack of scandal, and cross-demographic appeal made him an ideal unifying figure—contrasted to more divisive right-wing voices.

Quote:
“He was saintly... he knows how to not mimic the social justice warrior stereotypes that are thrown up by the MAGA side of the culture war.”
— Matthew Remski, [55:09]

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8. Liberal Responses and the Dangers of “Both-Sides” Bootlicking

[62:02–67:12]

• Some liberals (Ezra Klein, others cited by Ta-Nehisi Coates) attempted to eulogize Kirk as a “colleague” or fellow political participant, drawing sharp criticism for whitewashing his record.
• The hosts discuss the risks and psychology behind such responses—whether driven by class interest, social position, or a naïve hope of appeasing fascists.
• There is a robust rejection of such whitewashing by other left/progressive commentators and politicians.

Quote:
“I think the problem is it won’t work. Like, you can’t emotionally appease fascists because that’s more blood in the water.”
— Matthew Rimsky, [62:02]

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9. Left Organizing, Coalition Building, and Democratic Weakness

[67:12–71:43]

• The episode concludes with a self-reflexive exploration of coalition building on the left, the challenge of building power against right-wing unity, and the limits of both centrist and Marxist critiques.
• Democrats' penchant for “punching left,” neoliberal compromises, and inability to match the strategic clarity of the right are discussed as ongoing obstacles.
• Personal stories and analogies about coalition-building, empathy, and moving beyond internet discourse to “real-life” conversations are offered.

Quote:
“Most regular people aren’t plotting out how to cling to their power in spite of everyone else... but it casts blame upwards.”
— Matthew Rimsky, [71:43]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Martyrdom & Memes:
  “He was everything MAGAs desperately project onto Trump: eloquent, ideologically consistent, principled... you would never have to be secretly ashamed of Charlie Kirk.”
  — Julian Walker, [59:51–60:09]

• On Hypocrisy:
  “It’s not just that they don’t care about it, but... hypocrisy is just baked into the way in which the person is living.”
  — Matthew Rimsky, [26:33]

• On Wellness Grift:
  “The herpes reference is interesting... It’s almost like she’s recognizing, oh, this is a market for me... and then sell them my product.”
  — Julian Walker, [35:28]

• On Liberal Appeasement:
  “You can’t emotionally appease fascists because that’s more blood in the water.”
  — Matthew Rimsky, [62:02]

• On Coalition-Building:
  “Everyone wants systemic change and no one really wants power over anyone else. The right is better at organizing... because their overall goal is simpler.”
  — Matthew Rimsky, [67:12]

• On Meme Nihilism:
  “Each slogan or meme can have agonist or antagonist effects. Like chemistry doesn’t have any intention. And likewise it’s impossible to sort out the intentionality of the black pilled world.”
  — Matthew Rimsky, [48:16]

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Memorable Timestamps

• [08:04] Evangelical speaker at memorial and the rhetoric of spiritual war
• [22:19] “Hey, it’s Twig” describes becoming a target for documenting right-wing reactions
• [32:40] Dr. Jess Petros begins the grift: COVID vaccines and “ripping humanity out of people”
• [37:08] Mickey Willis’ conspiratorial, “the Great Purge” segment
• [41:26 – 42:13] JP Sears pivots from Kirk’s eulogy to selling magnesium sleep supplements
• [55:09] Analysis of Kirk’s “saintly” composure and emotional palette at memorial
• [62:02] On futile attempts to appease authoritarians

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Tone and Style

The hosts maintain an analytical, skeptical, occasionally sardonic tone—cutting through both right-wing propaganda and liberal wishful thinking with incisive commentary, while also making space for empathy and self-awareness about the limits of online political discourse.

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode demonstrates how the death of Charlie Kirk became a Rorschach test for American political polarization, instantly weaponized by right-wing forces to manufacture a martyr, promote conspiracy-laden grifts, and advance authoritarian, Christian nationalist narratives. The hosts track the opportunism and myth-making across both evangelical and wellness influencer spheres, highlighting the deepening entanglement of meme culture, religious authoritarianism, and reactionary politics. They critique not only the right, but also the tendency of centrist liberals to “whitewash” Kirk’s legacy in a misguided attempt at civility or self-preservation. The episode closes with a candid discussion about leftist coalition-building, the unique challenges facing democratic organizing, and the essential need for honest, upward-focused critique in the current political landscape.

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Transcript

[Julian Walker]

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[Derek Barris]

Hey everyone. Welcome to Conspirituality, where we investigate the intersections of conspiracy theories and spiritual influence to uncover cults, pseudoscience and authoritarian extremism. I am Derek Barris.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I'm Matthew Rimsky.

[Julian Walker]

I'm Julian Walker.

[Derek Barris]

You can find us on Instagram and threads at conspiritualitypod and we are also all individually on Blue Sky.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Oh oh oh, and I just started a TikTok account. I'm at Antifascist dad, so that's me, Matthew on TikTok no less.

[Derek Barris]

And I was recently locked out of my TikTok account because I used an old email that no longer exists. So I may or may not start a new one at some point. But if you follow me there, just know I can't access it anymore. But so follow Matthew. Okay, you can also access all of our episodes ad free, plus our Monday bonus episodes on [e-mail] conspirituality and you can access our Monday bonus episodes via Apple subscriptions if that is your platform of choice. As independent media creators, we really appreciate your support.

[Julian Walker]

Conspirituality 276 Inventing St Charlie Kirk On September 10, Charlie Kirk became the latest victim of gun violence in America. He wasn't the only person shot on a school campus that day. He wasn't the only political figure killed this year, and unlike Melissa Hortman and her husband, the motivation for his murder is still not entirely clear. But that didn't stop the immediate rush from right wing pundits and politicians to frame it as typical extremist left wing violence against a modern day Martin Luther King Jr. Who fought for truth, justice and the American way. In between the calls for civil war and censorship, the ramping up of police state authoritarianism and the painting of a slain Christian nationalist activist as a noble martyr, anti racist icon Ta Nehisi Coates called out the strange reflex from some left of center figures like Ezra Klein to participate in whitewashing Kirk's hateful politics. Today we'll discuss what happened and what it might mean. So as we all know, the 31 year old conservative activist and Trump ally Charlie Kirk was killed on September 10 by a shooter perched on a rooftop around 350ft away from where Kirk was engaging in his characteristic college campus speech and debate format in front of an estimated open air audience of 3,000 at Utah Valley University. As the manhunt for the killer was underway, pundits, politicians, influencers and the US President wasted no time declaring this an act of left wing political violence and calling for government crackdowns on speech and even some calling for civil war. In a copycat echo seemingly of the United Healthcare CEO killer's style shell casings left by the shooter were Engraved with messages. These were at first interpreted by officials and reported by the Wall Street Journal as anti fascist and pro transgender messages. But then they later seemed to mostly represent nihilistic meme culture trolling. Then commentators and some journalists identified social media posts that suggested groiper references tied to Nick Fuentes and his farther right feud with MAGA and Charlie Kirk. And this dovetailed with the shooter's heavily Republican gun culture Mormon background. Then as the thing kept twisting and turning, it was revealed he may have had a transgender romantic partner. So speculation about the motive for the killing have swirled and the shooter has been tight lipped with authorities so far since turning himself in. Meanwhile, several people daring to besmirch the name of St. Charlie have been doxed online, fired often for just directly quoting the fallen activist's words.

[Derek Barris]

And we have point out because it just happened this morning, the site that started to dox people got doxed. So all the people who are uploading information, their personal information is now released online because they didn't take security into account when they decided to put up their doxxing website.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I hate this timeline. So also based on a mob boss like threat directed at ABC by the FCC head Brendan Carr. You know, we could do this the hard way or the easy way. Late night TV host Jimmy Kimmel was pulled off the air for criticizing what he called, and I quote, the MAGA gang. Desperately trying to characterize this kid who murdered Charlie Kirk as anything other than one of them. And then Jimmy Kimmel returned to his show again this week in part because of mass outcry from subscribers who were threatening to cancel his subscription to ABC's parent company Disney. I'm going to start today by sharing a couple clips from a young independent journalist I came across who has also suffered pressure and harassment for her coverage. She goes by at heyitstwig on Instagram and she went undercover at a vigil in the small town of Neptune beach in northeast Florida just a few days after the killing. The rhetoric at this event and how she's been targeted illustrates the incendiary cocktail of politics and religion at the heart of what Kirk and now his martyrdom represent. Here's a snapshot compilation of what she posted.

[Unidentified Evangelical Speaker]

Videos that confused young people. He brings it back to the cross. I know that we would say it was a political thing, but it was much more than that. He was on a campuses we've lost a couple of generations because cotton candy preachers won't preach the truth. And what happens is we don't teach people that God made male and female. We don't teach people the divorce rate in the church is as high as it is in the world. But the sin, the soul that sinneth shall surely die. But Charlie Kirk died because of his stand. It is good and evil. It's evil that they want to kill babies in a room wound. It's evil that about 70% of the transgender people are between the ages of 13 and 18. 70% of the transgenders in America are teenagers. What does that tell you about indoctrination? We have to be militant as a Christian. In the old days, we sing a song, I'm on the battlefield for the Lord. We don't even go to church on Sunday forsaking not the assembling together of ourselves. Even more so we say it's the end times. Even more so seeing the day approach.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. So we could perhaps see that as a. As a small scale dry run for the massive event, the rally memorial that we had over the weekend.

[Derek Barris]

What's wrong with cotton candy? Is that it? Like, I didn't realize that. That's a. That's a slur.

[Julian Walker]

You know what it is?

[Derek Barris]

It's a. It's a.

[Julian Walker]

It's a watering down of candy.

[Derek Barris]

S. Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I mean, one thing that all of these people have to do is that they have to out conservative each other. Right. Because those comments are directed as much at his fellow preachers as they are at, you know, the general public. And that brings up these paradoxes. Like he's. He's complaining about how the divorce rate within churches is actually as high as it is in the general population. Instead of taking a lesson from that. Right. About what, you know, heteropatriarchy might mean or what Christian marriage vows might actually mean or what they do. It's gotta be a sign that the corruption is coming from within. So there's no escape for these people. It's like, you know, the world is dangerous, but also the. The church is dangerous as well. Unless we purify everything.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. There's always the need to return to a more fundamentalist commitment to these dogmatic principles.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Right. Yeah. There. There wouldn't be any sort of activity without that. Like, if they actually got to the place where they were. Absolutely. I don't. They wouldn't know what to do. I suppose they wouldn't have much to talk about. Right.

[Julian Walker]

There'd be another schism.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Right. Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

So, of course, this comes as no surprise. Turning Point USA is not just a political recruitment organization for young people present on more than 3,500 high school and college campuses. It's also a vehicle for Christian nationalism now. It didn't exactly start off that way. Charlie Kirk, who co founded the organization as an 18 year old in 2012 through 2019, expressed the opinion that imposing religion through government was morally wrong. In other words, he kind of favored separation of church and state, with politics being prosecuted via a secular worldview that he was willing to beat up on college students to debate in public. His initial focus on championing conservative politics and denying climate science actually reflected the agenda of Turning Point USA's Advisory Council members like Independent Petroleum association of America CEO Barry Russell and Supreme Court wife Ginny Thomas and GOP mega donor Foster Fries, who've all been involved somewhat from the very early days. But something changed in 2020. Shortly after Covid hit Turning Point USA hooked up with a young evangelical preacher and singer named Sean Foyt and his Kingdom to the Capitol tour, which proclaimed the imminent return of Jesus Christ at their revival rallies and gathered in protest against religious freedom being impinged upon by pandemic restrictions. Kirk also in this period, started referencing the Seven Mountain Mandate ideology that we've covered on this podcast, which holds that Christians should follow an Interpretation of Revelation 17:9 the seven heads are seven mountains combined with Isaiah 2:2 the mountain of the Lord's house should be established on the top of mountains, which obviously means that God wants the seven areas of business, government, media, arts and entertainment, education, family and religion to be ruled over by Dominionist Christianity.

[Derek Barris]

How would you read it any other way?

[Julian Walker]

I I I know it's very, very clear. We've covered White Christian nationalism a lot. There'll be links in the show notes if you want to follow up on some of these references. The Seven Mountain Mandate ideology is a kind of strategic initiative of the new Apostolic Reformation movement that is tangled up in our current White House, and it had a significant presence at the Capitol on January 6th. Just how tangled is this church state dynamic? Well, both Paula White Cane, head of the newly created White House Faith Office, and current Secretary of Defense Pete Hexseth are affiliated with this movement. So two old favorite operatives we've covered here for years in the run up to our current clusterfuck, Roger Stone and Mike Flynn and several others. As we approach the 2024 election, many preachers popular online openly embraced the label of being Christian nationalist, as did elected officials like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert, the head of the church that Pete Hegseth is affiliated with, Dan Wilson advocates not only for criminalizing homosexuality and abortion under all circumstances, but believes that women being granted the right to vote was a mistake and it should be rolled back. Make no mistake here, this is an ultra conservative, deeply reactionary, cult like movement that believes it can revive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, like prophecy and laying on of healing hands, speaking in tongues and working miracles. Preachers in this particular sect interpret worldly events through a supernatural lens. They see the world itself as a spiritual battlefield in which believers are called to fight demonic forces, essentially operating through those demonic forces operating through their political enemies. So I think we underestimate at our peril the status of Charlie Kirk, peace be upon him, as a literal martyr to millions of people who for years now have had their politics infused with fire and brimstone religion and their religion directed toward militant politics. The red line of designating political opponents as literal agents of demonic forces in a holy war has long ago been crossed. Which means the kid gloves of what a lot of moderates think of as Christian love have largely been removed.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Or what's been exposed is the complete absence of, you know, any other kind of Christianity, you know, involving the social gospel. You know, this paradox I think they're going to have to deal with right off the top because I didn't realize that Dan Wilson was such a misogynist that he wants to roll back suffrage for women. I don't know if he's having brunch with Erica Kirk, who's now going to be in charge of Turning Point, but like, yeah, they're going to have to sort out some stuff. But you know, what comes up for me is this question of whether Kirk was a builder or a burner, a destroyer of things. Like, I think he's had really huge influence because he's both, like, and he's confounding because he embodies both this fascist destruction and the veneer of fascist wholesomeness. Like, when he rolls into a university, he is there to basically destroy epistemology and, you know, the intellectual foundations of liberal democracy. That's what he's there to do. And I think that contradiction is what made him such a great absurdist. South Park. South Park Target and why meme images from the left about him line up with depictions of Vance as this big baby with a lollipop who's also capable of sicking ice on you.

[Derek Barris]

People have pointed out the obvious hypocrisy. I'll say more about that in a minute. About Kirk believing hate speech is protected under the First Amendment, which he was a big fan of. And the administration rapid shutting down any speech they don't like after his death. But, Matthew, it turns out that Kirk was also a fan of his south park character, and making south park being pulled from the air last week even more eyebrow raising.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah. So I did not know about his south park fandom until you mentioned it, Derek. And I think that makes it even more interesting to me as a political operator, more unflappable, because I can't think of another person who'd be lampooned like that, who wouldn't be, you know, really, really triggered.

[Julian Walker]

Especially on the right.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Exactly.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Anyway, I'll get to some of that psychology later, but the preview that I've got for that is that there are no right wing figures, as you're saying, who maintain that type of composure. He was really focused. But what I wanted to mention was that there were a few days in there after the iding of Tyler Robinson that you mentioned, Julian, where there was a lot of reasonable speculation that he was under the thrall of Fuentes and the Groiper movement.

[Julian Walker]

We were hoping. We were really hoping it was true.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, some people. Some people were.

[Julian Walker]

I was.

[Matthew Rimsky]

There was a picture of Robinson in the squatting Slav pose. The shell casings were etched with these pretty hackneyed memes and irony scrambled references to the anti fascist satire game Helldivers 2, which. Which I clued into right away because my kids play it. And people neck deep in that culture pointed out that Fuentes found Kirk from the right to be unacceptable, to be unacceptably liberal, and often called him a fascist for some reason that he could rationalize trolling. Yeah. Now, as it turns out, and fitting for this new category of nihilistic extremism that I think is emerging in the picture of Tyler Robinson. Those connections just haven't found enough evidence to stick. And we, we don't really know that much definitively about the motives here.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I mean, it went back and forth in its world, as I was saying, and. And things that we thought we knew turned out not to quite be what they seem to be. The, the thing that seems to have stuck is that apparently he was in some kind of close relationship with a trans person. But ultimately everything's gone quiet, so we don't really know how it all shakes out. Right.

[Matthew Rimsky]

One important thing that came out of this little eddy of discussion about motives was, I think, the growing visibility of meme experts. Like, I came across a woman named cy conterel on TikTok who pointed out that the meme heavy violence is usually rooted in this black pill hatred for anyone willing to work within institutions at all, even conservative institutions, to build something new. So for them, Turning Point USA and every attempt at MAGA integration dulls the blade of pure rebellion. Ergo, Kirk was a sellout because he wanted to build electoral power. He was a builder, in other words. And Fuentes is a burner now. So even if none of that ends up sort of patching onto this incident, I think it's good for us to be aware of that dynamic within conservatism.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I actually went back and started reading L. Reeves book Black Pill as well, which is a good reference point.

[Matthew Rimsky]

But listening to your review of our work on white Christian nationalism, I'm reminded that Kirk and the Seven Mountain People really only nominally work at building things like beyond market share and recruitment numbers. They do have this fantastical vision of a post liberal, post secular America that looks like illustrations from Sunday school books or Star Trek or a mixture of the both. But for the most part, I think they're nihilists as well, in relation to institutions, in relation to the courts or democratic norms or the definition of debate. Like, I don't buy it that Pete Hegseth really wants to build anything or has the imagination to build anything besides monuments to himself. Right?

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. Yeah. So for me, the important thing to remember is that the new Apostolic Reformation is post millennialist, which means they believe that establishing a Christian dominion over the world for a thousand years or so, that's the millennial part, is necessary before Jesus can come back. Right. This is different than the apocalyptic types were, like, we must be bathed in fire and then Jesus can return. They believe they have to install this kind of Christofascist vision. And with that kind of divine directive, they're willing to destroy a lot, as you're saying, in the name of getting us there. And they see anyone who opposes them as serving a demonic agenda. So, yeah, they're willing to work within a political frame. They're willing to stack the court. They're willing to ignore theological differences with Catholics in order to do so. But once they get into power. Right, they're absolutely clear about what their agenda is. And it has nothing to do with democracy.

[Derek Barris]

Hey, isn't the Rapture today?

[Julian Walker]

The Rapture is today. That's why we're still here, guys. And now we've got to figure out how to carry on.

[Derek Barris]

I wonder how many listeners we lost. Geez.

[Julian Walker]

So this. This aggression and this willingness to just destroy things that you're identifying, Matthew, and the hostility towards anyone who gets in the way. This is something that the young woman I referenced before, hey, it's Twig. Also found out very quickly. So just for posting the clips that she shared earlier, she just recorded them and posted them. After attending one of literally thousands of vigils that were happening around the country has turned her into a target of what many would classify as distinctly unchristian sentiments.

[Hey, it's Twig]

Hey, it's Twig. And in the past few days, Charlie Kirk supporters have doxxed me, reached out to my family, reached out to my previous employer, as well as made several violent death and grape threats to my inbox. One of the more notable threats being that a man said, where are you? So that I can find you grape you cut you up and put you in a barrel. They're trying to dox a job that I do not have because I am self employed. They have reached out to family members of mine. They have have stalked and harassed me, my friends, but I'm not going to be silenced. So I, I just wanted to make that clear. The whole doxing website that Charlie supporters have come up with and all of these ex accounts that are blasting progressive commentators and trying to get us fired or doxxed or physically harmed, I'm not going to be one of those. Baby, you're not gonna shut me up. You tried to intimidate me, you tried to silence me and all you did was give me a megaphone because I'm about to be so much louder and so much more obnoxious. And now I'm just gonna dig deeper.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I hope so. I also hope that they keep safe. I just want to say that, like, I've got this book coming out in April. It's got anti fascist dad on the COVID And, you know, I'm in contact now with, you know, the publicity team and the publisher about like, okay, well, well, what do recent statements from the White House actually imply about, you know, the safety of the publisher or my safety or things like that. And I have a whole sort of group of people that I can discuss that with. But if you are an independent, you know, content creator on TikTok or Instagram doing that sort of thing, it's incredibly vulnerable. It's very, very atomized. I mean, I think that speaking bravely as she's doing is really positive. And I also hope that she has people around her, you know.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, yeah. Hey, it's Twig. Stay safe. Stay safe. We are admiring your bravery and concerned about the realities of what you're going up against. So all of this underlines a strategy I've been describing over the last year as retroactive justification. It's when you falsely accuse the other side of having previously done the very thing that you're now doing, as if to say that turnabout is fair play. So whatever the story ends up being with the shooter in Utah, he wasn't part of a large, organized, well funded group engaged in hateful ideology that justifies violence. Those who say he was are more likely describing themselves. He's not an example of left wing hate speech creating stochastic terrorism. That language has been co opted ironically but unsurprisingly, based on how the media correctly described a spate of bomb threats at hospitals and then armed right wing militia presence at schools and libraries a couple of years ago in response to false and inflammatory rhetoric about gays and trans people being groomers, which is essentially code for them being pedophiles. That's when stochastic terrorism really entered the mainstream discourse and now it's being flipped, as if somehow openly calling out authoritarianism and fascist leanings in the current administration is a way of dehumanizing people and that that's what led to Charlie Kirk being shot.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Right?

[Julian Walker]

So now the category of hate speech is reframed as doing exactly that, and the spate of recent lone shooters who've mostly been right wing is somehow flipped as a stochastic outcome of less left wingers sounding the alarm via the very free speech protections that the right was proudly standing up for until literally two weeks ago.

[Derek Barris]

And Applebaum made a great point on this front that this isn't really about free speech as being criticized from the left, I. E. Cancel culture. This is clear government suppression expecting the right to understand they're being hypocritical. Hypocritical. It's just not going to work because they don't care about that. It's purely about power. And whatever means are used to acquire more power are more important to them than being labeled hypocrites.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I want to ping Sam Adler Bell and Patrick Blanchfield in a know your enemy podcast episode called Freud in Politics where they speak exactly to this and they say that when you call a MAGA person hypocritical and think that that's going to work, or it's going to score points, or it's effective and explanatory, it's not just that they don't care about it, but it's not going to sort of mesh with the fact that for a Trump supporter, hypocrisy is just baked into the way in which the person is living. It's like it's not hypocrisy, for example, for a Trump supporter to say that they value Christian sexual morality while they vote for Trump who's, you know, a predator. These are symptoms of internal conflicts between wanting to be seen as moral while grappling with their own sins. And Trump gives them permission to solve that tension. So they're not hypocrites. They can't conceive of themselves that way. What they're doing is that they're managing pretty painful contradictions.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. I would say, too, that they're to some extent here, not really beholden to earthly democratic principles or any logic that challenges their emotional conviction. No, because they've largely been conditioned to see the left as hypocritical, dishonest, hateful, and possessed by communism or Satanism or both. So this is where he's ended up. And the right wing response to his death is a strongly religious one. Whether devout or performative in its religiosity, authoritarianism is opportunistic and ruthless. We're watching the continued dismantling of firewalls between the government and the press, the DOJ and the presidency, the military and party politics, the education system and political activism, and even the sick combination of conspiracies and capitalism that is destroying our medical science agencies. And each one of those firewalls is maybe the subject of a previous episode this year. As for Charlie Kirk's legacy, well, his podcast had downloads as high as 750,000 per day before his death. That's an audience JD Vance was all too willing to tap into by broadcasting to its feed from the White House on September 16th. Since then, other right wing superstars have been willing to step into that limelight, like Glenn Beck and Michael Knowles and Megyn Kelly. In the wake of his murder, Turning Point USA has reportedly been flooded with requests to start official chapters at new educational institutions. And if all of those requests were to move forward, it would weigh more than double the number of those chapters nationwide.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Hello, everybody. It's Matthew here, resident podcast gardener, and I'd like to tell you all about fast growing trees. September is gorgeous here in Toronto, and fall is the peak time for planting up the larger perennials. But you have to know where to start. And that's why I love fastgrowingtrees.com because it doesn't matter where you live, their plant experts can help you find the perfect fit for your space. There's fruit trees, flowering trees. There's shrubs you order online, you get your plants delivered directly to your door in just a few days. With fast growing trees, you get time to really research the 6,000 plants they carry. Guaranteed to arrive healthy and they're all locally grown. If you've taken advantage of the expert database and the zone finder, you know you'll have an ecological match. So you get 15% [e-mail] using the code Conspirituality at checkout. So now's the perfect time to plant Use Conspirituality to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply and you can check out the link below or in the show notes and support the.

[Julian Walker]

Show all right, so this is super exciting to me. Emmy Award winner Kerry Washington returns as Dr. Virginia Edwards in Audible's heart pounding supernatural thriller the Prophecy Season 2. Yes, I said Audible. I know. I listen to audiobooks, mostly of the dry research variety for this podcast on Audible, but they apparently also do this kind of supernatural thriller with stars like Kerry Washington. You know who else is in it? Giancarlo Esposito. Remember him from Breaking Bad? Here's some of the Follow every twist and turn as Virginia and her miracle son Joshua flee from Detroit, pursued by the sinister Luther Bell and his morning stars. Each perilous step of their journey is guided by Virginia's haunting visions. While Bell's forces close in, threatening to tear their world apart. Evil is rising. Time is running out. Do not miss Kerry Washington in Audible's new Must the Prophecy Season 2. You can go to audible.com prophecy2 that's the number two, and start listening today. I will see you there.

[Crime House Podcast Host]

If you're obsessed with true crime, cults or conspiracy theories, I've got the perfect show for you. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is a new weekly podcast from Crime House and Pave Studios that dives into the darkest corners of human behavior. Every Wednesday we uncover the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies and secret plots. From mass suicides and political assassinations to secret government experiments and UFO cults, you'll hear about infamous cases like Jonestown and jfk, as well as hidden horrors like the Octopus Murders and Starvation Heights. But remember, these aren't just stories. These are real people, real events, and very real consequences. So if you love mystery, madness, and diving deep into the world's most unbelievable true stories, you won't want to miss this. Follow Conspiracy Theories Click Cults and Crimes now wherever you get your podcasts. And for ad free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Kristen Bell]

100% of the people who are excited and happy about a young father and husband's death have gotten the COVID vaccine. 100% of them have been jabbed a number of times. And it's been long predicted that this, this shot can rip the humanity right out of people. In fact, there's a study I'll post that my friend Dr. John Kim sent me about how it does increase the risk of schizophrenia, bipolar and aggression. Now how does this tie into things that I do in real life? In homeopathy, the reason people, the emotional reason people have herpes viruses is grief, which begets rage. So in Despio's homeopathy kit, the first month you treat with with grief as an emotional remedy. The second month, rage.

[Derek Barris]

So that's Jess Petros, a former hospitalist turned functional medicine and Gerson practitioner who never lets a good conspiracy pass by unnoticed. For this segment, I want to look at some of the wellness influencers responses to Kirk's death because there's been a lot and we've covered Dr. Jess before on the podcast. From that clip, she goes on to discuss how vaccines and herpes are related as well as linking to a lecture on the emotional nature of herpes that she's giving. And if you're wondering if she sells a boatload of supplements and homeopathic products, you are absolutely right. She was the first I saw that was grifting off Kirk's death and shout out to Mallory DeMille who's going to return next week. We're going to be doing an episode with her on nicotine. She sent me that video because Dr. Jess blocked me a long time ago. The first wellness influencer, as I said, to monetize Kirk's death, but certainly not the last. And it kind of makes sense that big wellness love Charlie. Because Charlie loathed Covid vaccines and mitigation efforts. He was early in Covid as a medical freedom champion. He basically claimed that max mass vaccination would cause extensive fatalities. He regularly criticized health authorities and vaccines, saying they were all part of government overreaching. In 2023, Kirk crossed paths with Swifties by mocking Covid and Taylor in the same breath when he wrote what would break Kelsey's heart first, the COVID shot or Taylor Swift. Swifties were not happy. And yes, Kirk regularly promoted alt med products. His show sponsors included supplements manufacturers like the wellness company who I've covered often, Balance of Nature and bio optimizers. Rough Greens was a sponsor Holistic Dog food wellness prepper crossovers like medical emergency kits and food ration buckets also made their way onto his show.

[Julian Walker]

Can I just say here quickly that the herpes reference is really, really fascinating and it's giving big, like Grindr crashed during the Charlie Kirk memorial service vibes, right. That she's. It's almost like she's recognizing, oh, this is a market for me. There's a lot of people here engaging in illicit sexual activity and have a lot of shame about their STIs. And I can somehow link it to all of this, you know, conspiratorial right wing nonsense and then sell them my product products.

[Derek Barris]

That's astute. I don't think she's that smart, but who knows, because she's been doing this a lot for a while. Herpes is kind of her lane, but she might have definitely noticed. It's. That's a. That's a really good point. I. I'm also not surprised that grifters would capitalize on Kirk's death because he spoke the same pseudoscientific language. The wellness company sent out a memorial email, which, to their credit, did not include any affiliate links or product placements. They did paint Kirk in the same light as we've been discussing today, though, as a free speech champion bringing old school debate and critical thinking to college and high school campuses, which he definitely was not. So that's Dr. Jess. We also have Mickey Willis chiming in, who posted a strange and meandering video on Facebook that's over two minutes long. I'm going to play about half of it. Noting that the last 15 seconds are stitched in, I included it because it parallels the body as society metaphors he poorly misused. In the brief that Julian, you and I covered a few weeks ago, when Willis was trying to relate toxins attacking the immune system to immigrants attacking America, which he then used in an attempt to sell his own immune boosting supplement. So here's Mickey.

[Mickey Willis]

If you want to see the light at the end of this very dark tunnel, listen closely. Like you, my heart is filled with sadness and rage. The reactive part of me wants to unleash hell on every radicalized activist out there.

[Matthew Rimsky]

There.

[Mickey Willis]

But the wiser part of me, the side that understands the vast difference between reacting and responding, reminds me to take a deep breath and to remember reacting is exactly what they want us to do. They need us so emotional, so enraged, that we look away from the evidence now emerging evidence that exposes their crimes against humanity, whether it's newly leaked emails proving that Dr. Fauci lied under odds both the bombshell study comparing the unvaccinated to the vaccinated, the long awaited disclosures from the Epstein files, or the countless other exposes now being dragged into the light. They want us distracted. They want us to dominate the news cycle with hateful rhetoric and physical acts of revenge. Do not take the bait. We are entering the Great Purge when that which is poisonous to the human organism is puked into the sewage where it belongs. In the same way your body rejects consuming toxins, we are collectively ridding our bodies of the poisonous programming we've been ingesting for decades.

[Derek Barris]

So Willis isn't selling anything in this video except his idea of what freedom means.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Hey, like every.

[Derek Barris]

I'm saying, he's selling a product specifically.

[Matthew Rimsky]

It'S like, yeah, he's not being a good fascist player because of course you're supposed to get angry over Charlie Kirk's murderer. So I don't know. With, with him, there's always somebody else in the background that he has some sort of insight into. But then also there's this incredible passivity. Right. Don't take the bait. Don't respond to this. Don't respond to that. But respond me, respond to me by doing nothing except maybe here's my pills.

[Julian Walker]

And, and that video is, is worth commenting on too. Right? The way that it's, it's, it's lit very intensely. He's kind of leaning forward. He has a cap on. It's like there's a whole way that he's showing off his bone structure and those intense eyes. Like he's very much selling himself in this video. And it's very reminiscent of Brett Weinstein essentially saying, you know, that, that claims of Biden being dead was, it was, was a, was a deep state kind of double fake. And you should not take the bait because everything within layers of conspiracies.

[Derek Barris]

And you can hear the silence in the vocal, like that's intentional. He has reverb there because he wants you to hear that silence. Like he's a very. He's very keen on how to present himself in these situations. To your point, Matthew? Yeah, he leans heavily on pronouns a lot there because who is the they that he's going through? First off, the Trump administration is in power right now.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Exactly.

[Derek Barris]

More and more media organizations are towing the MAGA line as billionaires buy up outlets. This is huge right now. MAGA is the deep state, yet he's pretending nefarious agents are working behind the, behind the scenes. And if he thinks that Trump and RFK Jr. Are going to purge us of toxins. My God. I have a new supplement for you. Speaking of supplements, Mickey's buddy JP Sears also never lets a good conspiracy go unmonetized. He has posted a few videos about Kirk now, including one that trails the Candace Owens Deep State Israel conspiracy theory that Kirk's waning allegiance to Netanyahu who we should know it has published a number of videos in honor of Kirk since his death is very suspicious.

[Matthew Rimsky]

This live stream genocide is starting to land with their followers, but then sort of balancing that against everybody's bone deep anti Semitism but then also guard railed by their loyalty to Trump's department of war. Like you know, it's a real mess. And when you have no morals like the calculus is pretty complex for these guys.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, well let's listen to the dizzying pivot of Sears's video here.

[Dax Shepard]

Well, that's it for today's news. And remember, the best way to honor the life of a great man is not to worry about truth and justice and just take comfort in the certainty that comes with our lone gunman end of story narrative. Good night and sincerely rest in peace, Charlie Kirk. You'll be forever loved and missed. Hey, did you know there's one phase of sleep that almost everyone doesn't get enough of? And this one phase of sleep is responsible for most of your body's daily rejuvenation, repair, boosting energy, weight loss, hormones, controlling appetite, and so much more. I'm talking about deep sleep. And a big reason why many people don't get enough of this most important phase of sleep is because they're magnesium deficient. Over 80% of our population is.

[Derek Barris]

Okay, so like we've covered Candace Owens a while ago going from Deep State to her sponsor and that I just wanted to play that example. Sears is promoting bio optimizers there, which as I mentioned was also a Kirk sponsor. You might find this hard to believe, but 80% of Americans are not magnesium deficient. Come on, the percentage who don't consume enough recommended daily allowance of Magnesium is about 50%, but the actual clinical deficit is about 10%. But never let statistics you don't like get in the way of selling products using Kirk's death to further spread conspiracies around vaccines in the Deep state is one thing. I want to do one more because Mallory sent me a substack post by a Florida based functional and integrative medical doctor named Leland Still Stillman and oh boy, strap in. I posted part of it on our instagram last week, and then Mallory made a of him. But let's recrap. Let's recap, actually. Yeah, yeah, let's recap, because the grift runs really deep. State Here it's titled who really Killed Charlie Kirk? And he uses the man to denounce the radical left, which he calls completely nuts. Why is the left completely nuts?

[Julian Walker]

Well, he writes, the human brain cannot remain rational in a world full of constant stimulation from artificial intelligence, light, artificial electromagnetic radiation, emf, processed food, heavy metals, and food additives, just to name a few.

[Derek Barris]

We should point out that Stillman is in Florida because that does play in here. Like Dr. Jess, he puts our inability to empathize on vaccines and so much more. He then states what he really does at his medical practice.

[Julian Walker]

We help men be as masculine as possible. We help women be as feminine as possible. We help children. Children be as childlike as possible. We help them grow up to be as strong, smart, and tough as possible. And as people get older, we try to keep them as tough and strong as possible for as long as possible. We do this by purging the body of the toxins that turn people into radical nut jobs. Medicine is politics.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Well, it sounds like he's added two genders there in children and old people, but I want to see his.

[Julian Walker]

What are their pronouns?

[Matthew Rimsky]

Masculino meters, the feminino meters, and the child O meters. Like, where's the data, Stillman? Where's the data? Show me.

[Derek Barris]

Oh, Matthew, you've always talked about how you don't understand science. He's bringing science here.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, right.

[Derek Barris]

Remember, this is all a supposed memorial to Charlie Kirk, this article. But then he reveals what actually killed Charlie.

[Matthew Rimsky]

As far as I'm concerned, Charlie Kirk was killed by artificial light at night, heavy metals, particularly those in vaccines, pharmaceuticals, particularly psych drugs, processed food laden with toxic herbicides and pesticides, industrial chemicals and toxins, particularly endocrine disrupting compounds, artificial electromagnetic radiation that have collectively rotted out the American mind to the point that there are adults who use terms like chest feeding and pregnant people. Now, don't get me started on genital mutilation masquerading as medical care. So are they trying to say that it's only people who don't vote for Trump who are consuming all of these food items and using vaccines and, like, what are they saying?

[Derek Barris]

No, no, not in this case. And. And his pronoun is definitely he, if you want to. Correct. I think he makes that very clear. What he's saying is that this is something that affects everyone. Because if he didn't, he wouldn't be able to sell to them. Because he specifically targets conservatives in his practice. He says mostly conservatives go to him because they are most concerned with their health, but they're going to be more aware of the things you just identified. And he's trying to help them, but if they're not going to him for help, those things are what create the radical left nut jobs which then do out, which then go out and do things like murders.

[Julian Walker]

Not only that, your kid, even if you're from a good maga Mormon family, could end up becoming one of these nut jobs because you haven't protected them from all of these toxins.

[Derek Barris]

Yes.

[Matthew Rimsky]

I guess what I'm confused about is that he seems to be suggesting that he has, has a huge practice that he's actually fixed a lot of people because there's a lot of people who aren't, you know, political nut jobs that, that aren't committing violence. Right. Like it, the, the numbers seem to be problematic here for me.

[Julian Walker]

Welcome.

[Derek Barris]

Yes, there, there's that, there's that and then there's this, this whole other level which I don't want to get too into. But his, his son was home birthed late last year, was almost stillborn, like, was not in, like almost died and they had to bring him to an actual medical, turned that into a crusade of like selling artificial light therapy to help children who are almost dead when they're born. It's very weird. Like this, these are all of his previous posts before this. So he's actually turned his son, who almost died into a crusade that he is now grifting off of. So that's the level of character of this person, just to be clear.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Well, I, I also think it would just be more effective if any of these people had insight into Robinson's purported hon online world. And maybe they could speculate about how his Mormon purity got scrambled by memes as if they were red food dyes. Because you know, this guy's talking about chemical chaos. And I think that's a lot easier to erroneously link to violence than black pill culture is. And I wonder if subconsciously his market is going to make that link. Because when you really get into the weeds of online nihilism, the data points are, are like just ambivalent. You know, it's also like chemistry where each slogan or meme can have agonist or antagonist effects. Like chemistry doesn't have any intention. And likewise it's impossible to sort out the intentionality of the black pilled world.

[Derek Barris]

That is one of your most astute scientific observations. I'm not, I'm being totally serious. Chemical chemistry does not have an intention. And the. But the way that they present it, as it always is if it did. Yeah, and that's, that's really dangerous. And that's what ropes a lot of people in. He concludes the email by writing that he wants to help ensure that the next Charlie Kirk grows up even stronger, tougher and smarter than the last one.

[Matthew Rimsky]

It's like the bionic man.

[Derek Barris]

I have to admit though, you know, I like to be fair. Stillman gets one thing right when he writes, you probably have never thought about medicine in this way.

[Julian Walker]

Had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it.

[Unidentified Evangelical Speaker]

Five, six white people pushed me in the car.

[Julian Walker]

I'm going, what the hell? Basically, your stay at home moms were.

[Mickey Willis]

Picking up these large amounts of heroin.

[Julian Walker]

All you gotta do is receive the package. Don't have to open it, just accept it. She was very upset, crying. Once I saw the gun, I tried.

[Derek Barris]

To take his hand and I saw the flash of light.

[Kristen Bell]

Listen to the child. Chinatown sting Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Derek Barris]

Overwhelmed by investing if you're anything like.

[Julian Walker]

Us, the hardest part is getting started.

[Derek Barris]

That's why we created the Investing for Beginners podcast. Our goal is to help simplify money so it can work for you. We invite guests to demystify investing.

[Kristen Bell]

At least try to be setting aside.

[Crime House Podcast Host]

Like the minimum 10% in the 401k.

[Derek Barris]

We'll teach you the basics of the market. Yeah, I think compound interest should be at the start of any discussion about investing. And we've had investment professionals who teach in a simple way a valuation driven bear market. You know, we haven't really seen yet and I think everyone's thinking about it, but we haven't really seen yet. Our Q and A episodes feature questions from listeners just like you. So what do you think about the situation with etbi, which is actively edition? I'm Dave Ahern. And I'm Andrew Sather and we hope you join us on the Investing for Beginners podcast. On the Investing for Beginners podcast.

[Julian Walker]

Comedy fans, listen up. I've got an incredible podcast for you to add to your queue. Nobody listens to Paula Poundstone. You probably know that I made an appearance recently on this absolutely ludicrous variety show that completely combines the fun of a late night show with the wit of a public radio program and the unique knowledge of a guest expert who was me at the time, if you can believe that. Brace yourself for a roller coaster ride of wildly diverse topics, from Paula's hilarious attempts to understand QAnon to riveting conversations with a bona fide rocket scientist. You'll never know what to expect, but you'll know you're in for a high spirited, hilarious time. So this is comedian Paula Poundstone and her co host Adam Felber, who was great. They're both regular panelists on NPR's Classic Comedy Show. You may recognize them from that Wait, wait, don't tell me. And they bring the same acerbic yet infectiously funny energy to Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone. When I was on, they grilled me in an absolutely unique way about conspiracy theories and yoga and Yoga Pants and QAnon, and we had a great time there. Was were very sincerely interested in the topic, but they still found plenty of hilarious angles in terms of the questions they asked and how they followed up on whatever I gave them, like good comedians do. Check out their show. There are other recent episodes you might find interesting as well, like hearing crazy Hollywood stories from legendary casting director Joel Thurm or their episode about killer whales and killer theme songs. So Nobody Listens to Paula Poundstone is an absolute riot. You don't want to miss find Nobody listens to Paula Poundstone on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Okay, well, the Kirk Memorial was something else. I mean, we've seen white Christian nationalist pastors praying over Trump. We've seen Paula White speaking in tongues. This was the whole cabinet leaning into incredibly vapid and repetitive praise music and the triumphalism of the evangelical Jesus with their full chest. Even Hindus like Gabbard are leaning in. And the non believer in Chief Trump.

[Derek Barris]

We look forward to it.

[Julian Walker]

It really is. We want to look at it as.

[Derek Barris]

A time of healing, a time of whatever. That something like this could have happened.

[Julian Walker]

Is not even believable.

[Matthew Rimsky]

The time of whatever.

[Julian Walker]

Meanwhile, have you seen the beautiful ballroom we're building?

[Matthew Rimsky]

So I don't think for any of us there's anything surprising about the instant hagiography machine running on this evangelical gas and thrown into gear by the MAGA transmission. It's a really predictable storyline and we've seen parts of it before. Like there are Reichstag echoes. This is that crucial moment when a Dutch communist torched the legislature in Berlin and that triggered brutal, brutal Nazi repression. There's the ghost of Horst Wessel that people have been referring to. He's the brown shirt propagandist who was murdered in in 1930 again by two Communists who was elevated by Goebbels himself to be the first Nazi martyr. And even there's a, you know, poem that became their hymn. What's notable about Kirk becomes clearer to me when I try to imagine the response to the murder of any. Any of his colleagues. Because on a functional level, the MAGA response to Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh, Jesse Waters, or Jack Posobic getting murdered would be just as opportunistic, but I don't think it would have the same emotional punch. And I think that's because Kirk embodied the affect that all of these guys aspire to, like he was unflappable. From what I've seen, if he chose to be an asshole, he usually did it with a smirk. I think the. The most obvious example that. That floated around blue sky last week was talking about how, well, there are no tall buildings in Gaza anymore, so they can't throw homosexuals off to their death. And he smiled as he did that. He didn't project fragility. He could even get his ass beat in those staged debates. So there are clips from Oxford Union floating around where he never loses composure, even when he's beaten. What he does is he sort of puts his eyes down and he looks at his notes and he just waits for the next debater to show up. He doesn't respond. He knows how to turn himself off. He knows how to not get triggered. He knows how to not mimic the social justice warrior stereotypes that are thrown up by the MAGA side of the culture war. He was saintly.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I think what you're getting at in terms of his unflappability is part of why he was actually able to have those debates not really be staged. He's willing to take all comers. He's willing to hear their best arguments, and when they do beat his ass, which they couldn't if it was scripted, he. He's actually really good at maintaining his composure in that moment. Right. I think, too, that. Right way. Gen X pundits and politicians who met Charlie Kirk when he was a teenager and then watched him turn into a powerful, successful, influential man with a wife and kids who became more religious as he matured. I can only imagine that they were very proud of him, that. That their emotion in response to this is, you know, a completely understandable human response in terms of what he represented to them, which was the future of their movement. As much as we decrypt it, yeah.

[Matthew Rimsky]

He really was a savior to them. And he grew up almost made for the role, although he Made some interesting choices. He grew up listening to Rush Limbaugh and you know, his politics flow pretty much from that well, but then, you know, with all of the opportunistic add ons that are dictated by the rise of maga. But he also added three winning ingredients. And you know, firstly, I'd say, you know, it appears to be that he had legitimate Christian commitments, he had a broader affective range, he was better emotionally and he had a baggage free image as far as we know. So he came off as disciplined and dignified and he had this just broader emotional palette than any of his competitors. He was even able, I think, to con people into thinking he was really listening to them during debates when what he was actually doing was really masterful, predatory listening, waiting for any opening to wedge in his talking points. So when we look at the sort of, I don't know, the spectrum of figures, Shapiro, Walsh, Waters, Alex Jones, everybody seems to be more like a single note archetype. And my guess is that they kind of work together like a kaleidoscope in the cultural production of myga. And in that each plays to a distinct personality type or need, they don't really have to perform any other role. But I think Kirk was much more fluid, I would say even gender fluid, given how much cross gender support he had through Turning Point and how he was obviously straight and tall and handsome and hawking wellness products, but he wasn't exactly a ripped gym guy. And I think this allowed him to appeal to a broader personality spectrum in the red states. Like he could hang out with truckers and barstool guys and Mormons, he could pull off cosplay as a Jehovah's Witness, knocking on doors. And of course Fuentes hated him because Fuentes has spent his life boxing himself out into this minority demographic defined by distrust of everyone. You know, he's the one who's cursed to stand out of CPAC and Turning Point USA conventions for the rest of his life because ironically, that's exactly where he wants to be. That's where his power comes from. So Kirk also, I think was Cleaver family clean or at least presented as such. Who knows, you know, really. But I, I haven't heard any negative about his, his personal behavior. TPUSA faced complaints about sexual harassment at events and not sufficiently protecting against it, which is not a surprise. But I don't, I don't see any personal behavior complaints about him, unlike many, if not most of those in his sphere. Now I think the key is, is that he mimics another generalist who's able to appeal to a diversity of demographics and bring together a diverse coalition through a fluidity of affect. And that's Donald Trump, who is a tycoon, a grifter, McDonald's eater, you know, deals in crypto and real estate. He's a wrestling mogul. He's a darling of Saudi princes and oil rig roughnecks. But everybody amongst them, I believe, whether they're in MAGA or not, I think probably has some understanding that Trump is cruel and petty and a criminal, a liar and a cheat who they're willing to tolerate if he scores for them against their enemies, even if it's only through, like, posting bullshit on truth Social.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah. I mean, in a way, Kirk was everything MAGAs desperately project onto Trump. Eloquent.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah.

[Julian Walker]

Ideologically consistent, even though I dislike his ideology. Principled in terms of like, really sticking to what he's saying. Religious in shape, masculine, handsome, and he has an actual pompadour. Right.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah. There's a real feeling of he was too good for this world that came out of that memorial. So, you know, likewise, Julian. When I hear Kirk mourners say he was going to be my president, I think the grief is related to the feeling that Kirk was a standout, unifying figure on the right, like Trump, with none of the criminal baggage and a cleaner and purer Trump than Vance could ever be. And I think this is why the MAGA and especially the Christian response has been so devotional to the point of emotional coercion. Because I'm hearing all kinds of stories about evangelical pastors are getting canceled if they don't praise Kirk sufficiently from the pulpit. So in the shadow of Trump, I think MAGA really needed Kirk. He would have provided them with some sort of redemption arc. Even if it was performative, you would never have to be secretly ashamed of Charlie Kirk. And all of these qualities contributed to the way in which his national tours seem to have a truly national as opposed to nationalist orientation, like, shitposting vibe to them, I. E. You know, Milos, and why he was so effective at fooling people into thinking he was an American optimist, that he was the MAGA answer to Obama.

[Derek Barris]

He was also one of the most successful Republican fundraisers. And, you know, I can't help but feel that there's a shock doctrine level power grab for all that collateral and that plays into his lionizing.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Oh, what you're saying is the more you praise Charlie Kirk at this particular junction juncture, the better your, your, your positioning in is in the lineup to the trough.

[Derek Barris]

Yeah, because like, even just looking at all of the guest hosts on his podcast that Julian ran down before, like, they're all part of that lineage and they're all grabbing off pieces of the audience as they go.

[Matthew Rimsky]

You know, the last set of comments I want to make is, is that like, how Kirk fooled people is. Is, you know, not just related to the MAGA base or to Red staters, but it seems that he also fooled some key liberals as well, who in the rush to process the murder, came out with some masterpieces in delusional bootlicking. You know, to be honest, like, Ezra Klein has been dragged, including by me, on my TikTok account, for lines in an op ed called Charlie Kirk was practicing politics the right way, and I hope that these lines will haunt him to his grave. Lines like, I envied what he built. And then in response to the dragging, he issued another essay before or introduction to his interview with Ben Shapiro. He went on to say, but I find myself grieving for him because I recognize some commonality with him. He was murdered for participating in our politics. Somewhere beyond how much divided us, there was something that bonded us to some effort to change this country in ways that we think are good. So Taneyzi Coates ran down Klein and other examples of liberal commentators engaging in stuff like this. And his closing point I thought was excellent, which was that Klein didn't actually quote Kirk at all, which I think raises a question of how much these folks are missing in the effort to go beyond condemning really destructive political violence and into fawning postures of warmth and respect and possibly guilt or, you know, don't target me. And I think the problem is it won't work. Like, you can't emotionally appease fascists because that's more blood in the water. We have Stephen Miller just declaring the entire Democratic Party as an extreme leftist organization. I'm like, like, cool. Well, maybe act like it just like a little bit, 10% maybe.

[Julian Walker]

That's interesting. You know, I heard other more left leaning media figures like Hassan Piker and Kyle Kalinsky alongside Jon Favreau from Pod Save America expressing something kind of similar. Like they reflected on how Kirk was a colleague, meaning they moved in circles with him. They debated with him on stages, they'd interacted with him as a person, and so they thought, shit. Actually, given the circumstances, that could have been me on that stage taking a bullet. And then on top of that, they were clear about how they opposed his politics.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, that's good. I mean, understandable sentiments for sure.

[Derek Barris]

I haven't actually seen one, one commentator praise Klein for that column yet. I'm sure some people appreciate it, but I actually just across the spectrum, I think he got dragged harder than most I've ever seen.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, to me, the measure of that is how he responds. And then the follow up before the Shapiro interview, I thought he just pretty much repeated what he felt and added a little bit of color. I don't think he's moving from that.

[Derek Barris]

No, I don't think so either.

[Matthew Rimsky]

There's a really dark Marxist critique of why stuff like this happens. And it kind of goes like this, that historically, liberals and centrists tend to navigate power instead of challenging it. And the reason they do this supposedly is to maintain social position and access to capital. So it's an I got mine position. And on my more cynical days, I, that resonates with me. And when I read Klein saying I recognize some commonality with him, I add in my head, well, of course you do. You know, the commonality of class and income and the social position of influencer, and you don't want a target on your back. And so now you're going to phone up Ben Shapiro and play peacemaker.

[Derek Barris]

I want to circle back because I've heard this critique before and I think it's a good time to unpack it a little bit. You know, we talk a lot about building coalitions, especially on the left, which has basically been getting trounced in elections for sometimes, and internally, the three of us, we have disagreements on how to do that. I think we all agree that it matters so that that keeps us going and that's important.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah.

[Derek Barris]

So when I hear that Marxist analysis you just bring up, I wonder how alienating it is to people who consider themselves liberal. I don't, I don't know a lot of pure leftists. I don't run in those circles. But my, my circles range from center right to liberal to progressive to where I am on the Democratic socialism or social Democrat side. But within all of that range, I don't know many people who think I got mine. I do know a ton of people who are just worried about surviving and paying their mortgage or their rent or their car payments or caring for their children. And, you know, when I'm in discussion with them, most of them aren't as, aren't as online as I am in my work, so. So they don't think much about distinctions between affiliations. Like, you know, when we analyze politics, we think a lot about it. I would imagine hearing that sort of analysis comes off as pretty off putting.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, I agree that it's stark. I think it can sound accusatory, I think it can sound paranoid. I think there's an art to not sounding like that. And I think a lot of people don't pay attention to that art. But I want to mention something about coalition building. I would say that it's Democrats that have been getting trounced in elections. And my view is that this is mainly because they punch left in the attempt to appease the donors and capture this kind of like Clinton era middle class that actually isn't there because it's been gutted out by neoliberalism. And so that's why they put down every whiff of Sanders type populism that they encounter. So from where I stand, coalition builders building against Trump has to be honest about stuff like that. And I think that's why the Mamdani campaign is doing so well. And I think it's doing so well as a tribute to how skillful they are at something very difficult within leftist politics. Because it's diverse and contentious. Right. Like there are multiple schools, there are competing ideas on how capitalism has changed and how fast it should be changed or how fast it could be changed. Competing values on who should be centered. You know, do we center feminism, indigeneity climate. But what is unifying, I think is two things that everyone wants systemic change and no one really wants power over anyone else. And I think the right is better at organizing. We talk about this a lot like, why are they better organizing? I don't think necessarily it's because they're smarter, in my view, or better at compromise. I think that the power struggle over Kirk's successor is showing how much they actually personally hate each other. They win, I think, because their overall goal is simpler. That, you know, they want to maintain and retrench current hierarchies. They want to wield total authority over them. I think the perfect expression of that is the seven mountain mandates, as you're describing, Julian. But I think Klein thinks that he shares with them the dream of a better country for everyone.

[Derek Barris]

I agree with that part about being guided by neoliberalism. I mean, I wanted Bernie in every election. Like I. That's where I caucused or, you know, voted in the primaries. I appreciate what Mamdani is doing. I personally feel like New York City is probably the. One of the few places in America where he could win.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Right.

[Derek Barris]

I would like to think it could be beyond that. But just having lived there and being from that area and knowing national politics. I don't see him scaling, although I would like him to, to.

[Julian Walker]

Yeah, I mean I also want to say here by way of closing, I think some of the rush to characterize liberal response to this is a little bit exaggerated. I mean for example, Ta Nehisi Coates is going after Klein. Klein really put his foot in it. I interpret that kind of charitably as him having messed up. But you know, he's repeatedly in the last several months made content sounding the alarm on authoritarianism. This is not normal. He's been employing the Democrats lately to essentially defund the government to engage in a government shutdown, to stop Trump from being able to enact his agenda. And then Coates reference Jenkins and if you click through it's, it's a six word tweet. The newsome reference is about an official statement as governor which is, you know, gonna, gonna be what it's gonna be as a politician in that kind of position. But you know, I look across the spectrum, I see Roland Martin and Joe Walsh, hardly major leftists coming out and saying we shouldn't whitewash this guy. Elizabeth Spears Jeff Charlotte I shared on our Instagram feed Obama AOC got up and made a very, very rousing speech. The effects know this is crazy that Congress is, is shoving through this memorializing of this guy who was an open racist and bigot. And 58 Democrats voted against that congressional whatever you want to call it, designation 60 either voted just present or abstained altogether. So that's more than half the, the party in Congress refusing to go along with it. The 95 who did. I don't know what their political reasons are. They may just want to move on. And then Jasmin Crockett goes on some CNN and talks about why she voted no. So I see a pretty robust rejection of the whitewashing of Charlie Kirk that you can kind of say Ezra Klein was, was susceptible to for a moment.

[Matthew Rimsky]

Yeah, I mean it's good. But to your question, Derek, about like who would be put off by that historical analysis, I, I think that any sort of, sort of reasonable historical read of why liberal centrist philosophy doesn't beat back fascism is just true and it's worth airing. I try to be tactful and I think about the difference between pundits, politicians and citizens. Like you're not in the pundit class and so there's no point in soft pedaling things with you. But if we went out for beers with your friends and the subject came up like for instance, if someone said, well, I think Klein was right that Kirk was doing politics correctly. I think I would smile and say, well, I don't think baiting college kids into embarrassing social media clips is good politics. And then instigating January 6th. And you probably would too, right? Like we'd both probably smile and say that. All fine so far. If there's a follow up exchange about why Klein or others take that position or make the mistake of trying to be friends with bullies or to launder what they do, you know, there's where we might have different ideas. Like, I would keep my comments focused on stories that impugn the powerful because you're right, most regular people aren't plotting out how to cling to their power in spite of everyone else. And I think about my dad, who is trained as a Russian historian studying Stalinist repression and forced famine in Ukraine. And nonetheless he held socialist views because he didn't confuse socialism with Stalinism like all of his American education wanted him to. And he held those values while working with liberals and conservatives his entire life. And he didn't make social enemies because he was good at telling bird's eye view stories. So. So we're at beers and I would say something like, Klein reminds me of how British leaders and pundits in the 1930s had this instinct to praise and appease fascists because fascists obviously could inspire the youth and rally them back into pride and productivity after the nightmare of World War II. Like the parallels here would be because Charlie Kirk was getting people involved in politics, especially after Covid or something like that, or after 9, 11 or whatever the disaster is. But these people were also happy that Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were cutting off the other attractive response to that war trauma, which is collectivization. And they were doing that by killing the communists in their midst. Like nobody in Europe wanted the basic rules of economics to change. Now, Trump is not at the street murder stage of fascism yet, except he is vaporizing random power boats in the Caribbean. And Klein never praises Trump. But I also think it's easy for people who have substantial power to not fully grapple with how violent fascists are. And, you know, especially if that violence doesn't impact them directly. You know, they don't. They might not see it. So I think there's a naive tendency to hope that Charlie Kirk would be reasonable at the end of the day. And then I put my beer down and then what do you think, Derek? Like, is that alienating? I think it makes all the points, but it casts blame upwards.

[Derek Barris]

It depends on how many beers we've had what you've described, you know, is like, and I've said this for a long time, most people that I'm aware of would not react in the same way to conversations in real life as online now. There are certainly people who will. So what you've just laid out I think is really reasonable and empathy empathetic for people sharing beers or in in an actual conversation with one another. And to be fair, that is how I framed it. So that was, I think, a really nice response. I think it gets a lot trickier online when you don't have that affective voice. You don't have the ability to talk things out or talk through things with people nearly as much. Most people will drop out in the comments. So I think in that medium it would be a lot more difficult to see that analysis written out and then to create nuance. But to be fair, that's pretty much anything we broker in, right.

[Julian Walker]

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